Wild horse predation

[Frisco Pier]

I keep hearing and have always assumed that lame mustangs and feral horses would be culled in the wild, but what is going to eat them? Maybe the occasional cougar? I have never seen coyotes bother horses or even geriatric ponies.
I was driving through a very desolate part of Wyoming a few years back and thought I saw two wild horses out on the open range. I stopped for a while to scope them out and they eventually made their way up to me. Neither of them looked like they had been touched in a long time. One had huge water pockets on both his carpus'. They were both pretty lame, but obviously surviving as feral horses. One wouldn't let me near him and the other let me pick up his feet which were nicely worn.
I understand that coyotes might get an unprotected foal, but I don't know why everybody assumes that all the less than perfect specimens get culled from the herd.
I know the Chincoteague ponies don't get culled. Most of the ones I have seen are lame and have some extremely long toes. I have been to a few of the roundups and most are pretty gimpy and constantly stumble.

[cordell_rogers]

the other let me pick up his feet which were nicely worn
I am pretty sure those weren't mustangs - probably old horses turned out for retirement.

[Kaydence]

That is what I was thinking too Cordell_Rogers. Black Beauty images and all, I know a lot of clients who can't even walk up and pet their horses in their own paddocks, much less charm a "wild mustang". A couple hours drive from my place, the Natives turn their horses loose for the summer. Some of them get hit by cars (Not many. Most drivers in those areas are either familiar with how livestock is kept or they are so new to mountain driving that they go slow anyway). Some of the horses never come down from the mountains. Many of them stay close enough to people not to have to work too hard for their meals. I've tried bribing one particular group of horses for a couple of years now but until they are in their pens for the winter, there is nothing in my possession that interests them enough for human contact. I get close but not enough that one could be touched.

In my area, not that it happens often but it has happened, that healthy horses have been attacked in their pastures by cougars and on at least one occasion, a bear. I know my 29 year old wouldn't be escaping such an adventure. Granted, the coyotes seem to just howl at the top of the hill and it is rare that I see them wander through the pasture. The only time I worried at all about the coyotes was when the foal was pretty fresh.

Cheri

[Rancho JD]

they were reduced in numbers by drought and hard winters more so than 4 legged predators. they were also captured and hunted before the BLM was concerned about their "existence"

[Frisco Pier]

Yeah, the two horses were obviosly feral not wild. They were probably let go to fend for themselves because they were lame, but they were doing ok up to that point. It was a very scrubby and dry area and they looked pretty rough and s****py, but not undernourished. My point is that if these old lame horses are out on the range surviving on their own, why do so many people assume that any lame mustang would soon be eaten or culled out?

[Gary Hill]

Natural Order claims that the Strong survive and the weak fall prey to anything.

[mbetteridge]

QUOTE=Frisco Pier:Yeah, the two horses were obviosly feral not wild.

Definition of Feral: Untamed, Undomesticated, Uncultivated, Natural, In their Natural Habitat


Definition of Wild: Untamed, Undomesticated, Uncultivated, Natural, In their Natural Habitat, Feral.


Sorry, Just had to pick a little ;)

[Frisco Pier]

fe•ral P Pronunciation Key (fîr l, f r -)
adj.
1.
a. Existing in a wild or untamed state.
b. Having returned to an untamed state from domestication.
2. Of or suggestive of a wild animal; savage: a feral grin.
feral
/feer l, ferr l/
• adjective 1 (of an animal or plant) in a wild state, especially after having been domesticated. 2 resembling a wild animal.

I looked up feral online and that is what I found. I consider feral as a once domesticated animal that is no longer in captivity.

[Rancho JD]

what do you want...

[Bill Adams]

Here in Northern California, we have mountian lions killing domestic (expencive) horses. Had a client lose a 500lb filly. Have had them chasing horses around boarding stables just before they got shot. They stalk people around here all the time. I know of one fellow who shot one point blank as it jumped at him from a tree. He was deer hunting, so he had the rifle handy. Had a client (teenage girl) that had a lion jump at her horse while she was riding, the horse jumped out of the way, and her next trick was to stay on the horse as it went full tilt through the woods.
I've had one watch me shoeing, which rather upset the horses.
I would bet on horses falling prey to lions.
My $0.02,
Bill

[Frisco Pier]

Natural Order claims that the Strong survive and the weak fall prey to anything.
Survival of the fittest means those most fitting to their environment will survive. It does not mean physically fit as in strong or even sound. It often has to do with color and adaptability. I would say that most wild horses die of drought or starvation, rather than predation, except by humans. On a real sparse year the easy keepers may be the survivors, because that year they were the fittest. On real lush years some of the easiest keepers might die from founder. I just don't believe the statement about mustang hooves being perfect models because all the less than perfect ones got weeded out. I would think that survival on the range has more to do with their digestive system and disease than with lameness issues. Unless the lameness has rendered them unable to walk to the next bite of food or watering hole.
Regardless I do a "natural" trim on barefoot horses because I get good results in mimicking natural wear patterns, but I think some of the reasoning behind the mustang model is flawed.

[Frisco Pier]

what do you want...
I assume that is a question and not an offer, but just in case I would like love and respect for all, whirled peas, and all those feel good things. A couple million $$ so I can quit working and a 42ft blue water capable sailboat to enhance my retirement.

[Rick Burten]

Regardless I do a "natural" trim on barefoot horses
Not me! I do an unnatural trim on every horse that comes across my mats!
"Unnatural, you say? Rick, how can this be so?"
"Well," sez I, "since I'm using tools and since the trimming is done in a (relatively)controlled environment, and since the trim is due to the intervention of(the species) man(both from an owner's perspective and the farrier's perspective), I'd say that's pretty unnatural." Then sez I, "come to think about it, all those BUAtistas running around calling themselves 'natural trimmers' are so full of hogwash, that they could easily start their very own hog wash."

[Gary_Miller]

I looked up feral online and that is what I found.
And since it was on the internet it has to be true? :D :eek: :confused:

Gary

[Ronald Aalders]

I've had one watch me shoeing, which rather upset the horses.
I would bet on horses falling prey to lions.
My $0.02,
Bill


Kick his ***! I hate horses that move around while I'm shoeing :D


Ronald Aalders

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Bill Adams in gray, deletia

Here in Northern California, we have mountian lions killing domestic (expencive) horses. Had a client lose a 500lb filly. Have had them chasing horses around boarding stables just before they got shot. They stalk people around here all the time...

As I recall, the Sweetness and Light Brigade was instrumental in banning the hunting of mountain lions in the Land of Quiche about 1972. The cougar population appears to have rebounded nicely, albeit with the occasional loss of a jogger or two which is evidently considered to be a fair tradeoff to the S&LB, a group to which slow room service is the epitome of "roughing it."

I've had one watch me shoeing, which rather upset the horses.

Nevermind the horses, nevermind the law: If I could quit shaking long enough, I'd be digging out the shotgun from behind the seat and trying to remember where'n hell I put the buckshot!

I would bet on horses falling prey to lions.

I'm sure a few feral horses fall prey to mountain lions, but I don't think the numbers are statistically significant.

For those folks debating the meaning of "feral", the generally accepted meaning of "feral" is "once domesticated" or "descended from domesticated ancestors." "Wild" (adjective, not verb or adverb) refers to animals that have never been domesticated and are not the issue of domesticated animals. There are no wild horses in the Americas, other than in zoos.

One realizes the importance of orwellian newspeak in the revisionistic propaganda of those who would have folks call feral horses, "wild" and claim they are a part of America's heritage or somesuch nonsense - but the truth is that the horses on both sides of the BLM fence belong to the same genus and species, a fact that renders their arguments laughably specious.

[Frisco Pier]

Not me! I do an unnatural trim on every horse that comes across my mats!

Excellent point Rick. "Natural" is just a marketing gimmick. There is nothing natural about how the majority of horses in the U.S. are kept. I said I do a natural trim for lack of a better label. I think Natural Balance principles(another label) make sense so I use them. Good farriers were doing good trims long before they started getting special marketing labels attached to them. I was hoping an AANHCP follower would explain/defend their reasoning on why the mustang hoof model is supposed to be genetically superior.
Anybody knowledgeable about mustangs, is there a lot of predation going on or do they mostly die for other reasons? BLM roundups also would seem to take away the natural selection factor. Is anybody familiar with how the BLM conducts their roundups? What happens to the horses that fall behind, do they get left on the range or are all the stragglers picked up?

[Ben-Sturman]

In south central MT and the high desert of WY there are some feral horse herds that are a real PIA to some ranchers. They are also very fun to watch on a high mountain hot summer day with nothing to do but ride and drink some cold beer. As far as predation, yes some are taken by cougars, maybe wolves in time gone by, and even a few black bears have been found eating on a carcass now and then(not that they killed it, but they dang sure ate what they found.) Most of the horses taken by predation are either to weak or sick to get away and become separated from the herd, and a single horse that is hurt or weak isn't to much of a match for a cunning predator. But they are not a source of consistent food, and are not hunted regularily. Most predator kills are ones of consequence and lucky situations.

Now, these horse also die from old age, injury, sickness, and in the past, lead poisoning (30-06 lead in most cases). Many of the Pryor Mountain wild horse herd deaths were from that very swift lead poisoning in the past as these horses were seen a pests and nuisances by local farmers, ranchers, and the hunters frequenting the area. After the BLM stepped in and started monitoring things and doing roundups, that type stopped. But even today, if you go four wheeling, quad riding, or horse back riding into the Pryor Mountains you can find feral horse skelletons from many varied types of death.

Most of the roundups have run the gammut from horse back roundups to helicoptor roundups to four wheeler roundups and back to horse back roundups with helicoptor spotters to make location quicker. In these round ups they try to bring in all the horses but sometimes smart ones and sick and weak ones get a way or left behind in the hopes the ones that are turned back will return to the area and pick them up before predation becomes a factor. Some are even injured in these roundups and they have a vet there to provide assistance, even if it's to put one down.

Hope this helps a little to clear up your questions. I grew up hunting, playing, and working in the Pryors and have heard many many stories about these horses. I worked for a BLM fire crew for a couple of years and spent alot of time around the wild horse guys in the office and got much info from them. As far as the lead poisoning part, unfortunately it is true, but all names will be with held to protect the innocent.

[Bill Adams]

Tom,
Please rest assured that a 44mag was quickly obtained by the horse owner and the lion hunted. However an oppertunity did not present itself to dispatch the cat that day.
I know of the cats overpopulation in some areas is depleting the deer population. I also know that they are plentyful enough to have alowed a couple of ranchs to shoot 17 in one year.
Once I had an appointment to trim a couple of Arabs owned by a couple of Seinor Officers in the S and L Birgade. They were quite adither about the fact that a lion had been shot the nite before while chasing horses at their boarding stable. I explained that there were hundreds of lions around and that the enviromentalists from Los Angeles come up here to Humboldt State University, get a degree in biology, go to work for the forest service, go out to do a lion census, get lost, don't see any, and figure there are about one every hundred miles.
I was then informed by one of the ladys that she had a dergree in bio from HSU, and that she was from LA too.
Never got called back.
I talked to a fellow today as a mater of fact, who had a lion chase a deer into the bicyle he was riding. He mentioned that it was quite an experience to look eye to eye with a cat that big, in the midst of a hunt, from a few feet away. He was riding the bike for his health.

Ron, We did hit the horses. Those two had always stood fine but we had trouble till they could see the cat. It had been up wind, but when it moved in to the brush down wind they relaxed, when the cat would be most dangerous. I guss in the wild, the horses would'a hoofed it outa there.
Bill

[matryoshka]

There was a poster on COTH that asked about "Natural Horsemanship Trimming." I got a kick out of that. I hadn't recognized a kinship between the two until then. A couple of people did get uppity about correcting the poor person who made this mistake. No sense of humor, I guess. :rolleyes:

BTW, somebody on the COTH site posted a pic of a BLM mare that had a club foot with a vertical wall. I guess the cougars missed that mare.

[Bill Adams]

Marty,
Your post got me to thinking, that the most natural relationship with horses would go along with a predation thread as the most historicly natrual thing to do with horses would be to eat them.
I would announce this after the BBQ was all eaten at a strauser certification.
In her honor we could make 'whinnie-shinichel'.
Bill

[FootFalls]

Bill, I read last year that one of the few areas of wild horse predation are in the area of the Oregon, Nevada, Californea border junction. I believe it was either Forest Service or BLM info. Of course there is also some minimal big cat depredation in the bay area and the western Sierra's near Sacramento, but that's mostly of two leggers.

Of course there's congenetal defects in wild horses, just as there are in all critters. If they are still able to escape, they live, if not, they don't. The important part is rather or not they breed. The injured or defective horses I have seen in the wild are loners, and moving slow. Some live for a long time(years, references available). Some don't! But I've never seen or heard of a crippled horse breeding in the wild. I have heard of herds leaving weak or defective foals however.

A depredation case not involving horses, but the point is the same. A herd of about 120 antelope fed in the fields near my horse paddocks, 75 yards away, or so. One afternoon an injured stragler stumbled by after the main herd, about 350 yards behind. It hung around my horses for awhile, very close. I had the feeling he was looking for protection. Two mornings later, his carcass was in the field about 75 yards from the paddocks. Coyotes had pulled him down about 40 yards out, finished him a little further, and drug him out some more. They chewed on him for several nights!
They never bothered the horses, even the newborn burro that came along a few weeks later. He and mama stayed inside at night, but were out during the day. They coyotes never bothered them. But it was calving time, so that was probably an easier meal. Also Ag hunters had taken out about 25 of them in the area.
I have seen horses with deformed feet in BLM adoption corals. Not often, but they are sometimes there.
Tom

[arroyojim]

cougar predation from: http://www.kyhorsepark.com/imh/bw/kiger.html


"Rojo-The Son Of Mesteño
Rojo (Ro-ho) (also known as Yellow Sands, a nickname the BLM gave him) is the son of Mesteño and Palasandra. Rojo was a magnificent red dun colt. Rojo was kicked out of the herd by Mesteño at the age of two. For months, Mesteño allowed Rojo to follow the herd and stand in the distance, but would chase him off if he came too close. Rojo was Palasandra's little boy and she would whinny for him and he would answer. Rojo was eventually run off to gather his own mare herd. Rojo gathered one mare and was extremely proud of her and would defend her at all measures. The following spring, Rojo's mare was captured and adopted out. Rojo was faced with having to win more mares. Rojo gathered two more mares, a dun and a claybank named Luna who became his lead mare. Rojo sired 3 foals that are known of and all 3 are still running free on the Steens Mountain. In the prime of his life, tragedy struck Rojo. He was attacked by a cougar and was badly injured. Rojo spent nearly 6 months next to a watering hole barely able to move. Rojo recovered, but was left crippled in his back legs and moves slowly. You can still see the scars down his side where the cougar raked him. Rojo lost his mares and was left alone to fend for himself until he was taken in by a small band of young stud colts that have been watching over and defending Rojo. As of August 2000, Rojo was alive and doing well. He is fat and seems to get around somewhat better. It is reported that bachelor studs are still protecting Rojo. Rojo is a popular horse to photograph and is a living statement of the will to survive."

[Haffiegirl]

Good farriers were doing good trims long before they started getting special marketing labels attached to them. I was hoping an AANHCP follower would explain/defend their reasoning on why the mustang hoof model is supposed to be genetically superior.


This is also a question I have. I am starting to think it's the terrain. hard dry ground, 24/7.

Oh! the feral/ wild thing? feral is not a native species, wild is. As Tom said, there are no wild horses in the USA. Horses are not native to the united States.