Cracking hooves with shoes on

[silverleprichuan]

I posted a few weeks back about my sisters mare who had minor flaring and cracks, but she is now doing wonderfully. The issue I am having right now is with my mares feet. She has slightly brittle feet, is on supplements, and has pads in the front. As the weather is starting to dry up I am seeing a lot of cracking around the nail heads and about a a half an inch up from her shoes on the hoof wall. She's moving well and I highly doubt this is my farrier fault, but I don't know why she's having these problems that she didn't experience over the winter. I have been thinking about pulling her shoes, would this make the cracking worse? I left a message with my farrier to give her feet a quick once over when he comes out to do some others horses this week because she's not due for another 2 weeks.

[cynthia-jay]

The wet to dry weather conditions have alot to do with what you are experiancing

Your Farrier may also want to change nail sizes as well for the next shoeing cycle

best of luck to you

as always

Jay

[silverleprichuan]

Here's a pic of her front left hoof which is the worst one. She's getting reshod on Thursday but it's only been 5 weeks since her last shoeing

[calshoer]

Unless that shoe has slipped to the outside since it was put on , it is way too wide. There is no reason to have a shoe wider than the foot anywhere in the front half of the foot. A shoe the appropriate size for the individual foot will get the nails up higher where they belong, thereby leaving more wall below the nail clinches to be stronger, and eliminate most of that cracking. A shoe that wide only encourages flaring and cracking.
Far better nailing can be acomplished with a closer fit shoe of the appropriate size and (if necessary), custom nail holes punched in the shoe for the appropriate hoofwall thickness.
Patty

[Rick Burten]

Unless that shoe has slipped to the outside since it was put on , it is way too wide. There is no reason to have a shoe wider than the foot anywhere in the front half of the foot.
I disagree, especially since there is a pad ammended to the shoe. What does seem apparent to me is that there is some hoofwall disease present and that is the main cause IMNTBCHO of the chipping and flaking of the hoof wall problem.
A shoe the appropriate size for the individual foot will get the nails up higher where they belong, thereby leaving more wall below the nail clinches to be stronger, and eliminate most of that cracking.
Agreed. That said, the I don't believe that the nail height is, in this instance, the culprit.
A shoe that wide only encourages flaring and cracking.
Demonstrably incorrect.
[Far better nailing can be acomplished with a closer fit shoe of the appropriate size and (if necessary), custom nail holes punched in the shoe for the appropriate hoofwall thickness.

Better nailing depends on the correct location and pitch of the nail holes and the skill of the person driving the nails. Just by close fitting a shoe, one does not necessarily engender good nail height.

[silverleprichuan]

Do you have any idea what the hoof wall disease might be? I've been thinking about transfering her over to barefoot in the beginning of July, should I not do so because of these issues?

FYI I will be talking to my farrier about all of this

[Gary Hill]

I agree with Rick the shoe looks like it is were it would be if the wall was intact. Many problems can happen to the hoof wall when the moisture balance in the foot is out of sync. My question is why are the pads needed on this horse ,then go from there. Good Luck! Gary

[smitty88]

i would agree with Rick and Gary on both points made
to ad to that i woudent drive nails in that area

the clip is doing nothing where it is
put nail holes where you can drive them

put the clips where there doing a job
widest and light as possible shoe

if you can get a hot fit into him
that would be good

if he is doing road work cut that down
feet wil inprove

[Phil Armitage]

Another thing to think about is the thickness of the hoof wall, type/thickness of shoe and size of nails used. If the hoof wall is thin a thinner shoe like a Kirckhart SX-7 or St Criox lights and a smaller nail like Mustad SJ 0 can be used in addition to hot fitting.

Useing a thinner shoe and lighter nails on thin wall makes it possible to get better shoe fit and nailing.

[Rick Burten]

Do you have any idea what the hoof wall disease might be?
Most of the ones I see are fungal in nature(ie:White Line Disease), but often have a yeast and/or bacterial pathogen present. If you tap/percuss the outside of the wall both in the immediate area of the problem and elsewhere, do you hear a hollow sound? If so, then WLD is present. In any event, the area should be fully cleaned/debrided and a shoe with frog support(or other mechanical support for the rear half of the foot(frog, commissures, bars, sole) added.
I've been thinking about transfering her over to barefoot in the beginning of July, should I not do so because of these issues?
If the wall is unstable, then I feel you should first get stability before considering a change from shoes to barefoot. Also, I don't think July is such a good time for making the switch because of the dry, hard ground and the presence of flys. And, since that time of year is also usually in the middle of prime riding season, you run the risk of not being able to ride your horse just when you really want to.

[silverleprichuan]

A couple of people asked for clarification so I will do my best, please let me know if I'm still not clear or I forgot to cover something.

I've had Paxton since August, when we got her she was missing one front, one back, and was 3 weeks overdue. Since then she's been doing well but in early March she came up lame and the vet did x-rays and found that there was a very small amount of sub-solar bruising in the front left. He recommend pads on both front feet for 12 weeks. She is now coming to the end of her third shoeing with them so, I believe he will not be using them on Thursday.

Because I'm in highschool and my farrier is busy it is very rare that I get to see him work on her but last time we talked he was hot setting (is that the right term?) pre-made shoes.

We are not doing any road work at the moment but she is walked along a 1/4 stretch of driveway twice a day to get to her pasture. She also walks that same distance 4 or 5 times a month when I school her in the front pastures.

I will be out there tomorrow, and will tap on her hooves as well as another horses hooves so I can get an idea of what they should sound like. I'm guessing I just lightly tap on her hoof wall, so would it be okay to use the back of a hoof pick instead of a hammer?

Someone else mentioned that they wouldn't pull her shoes in July if she had anything going on. I completely agree and from what I've read about WLD , she may need special shoes to support the hoof while it grows out if it was severe. If we find there is no WLD or similar issues I would have no problem taking a month or two off from heavy work while she transitioned. I want my horse to be happy as possible, but if the dry conditions would make the transition worse, should I wait until late fall or winter?

Somebody also mentioned flies, is there any chance that some of the cracking is the result of stomping her feet? I do my best to keep her protected from the flies but in the GA heat she tends to sweat fly spray off quickly.

[Rick Burten]

in early March she came up lame and the vet did x-rays and found that there was a very small amount of sub-solar bruising in the front left.
How did he reach that conclusion based on a radiograph?
He recommend pads on both front feet for 12 weeks. She is now coming to the end of her third shoeing with them so, I believe he will not be using them on Thursday.
Has anyone used hoof testers on the horse?
Because I'm in highschool and my farrier is busy it is very rare that I get to see him work on her
School should be out of session by now, so you should be able to be present when the farrier is working on your horse. Ask question, observe closely, and take pictures. Has your horse been sound since the application of the pads?
How is your farrier going to decide whether or not to continue using pads?
I will be out there tomorrow, and will tap on her hooves as well as another horses hooves so I can get an idea of what they should sound like. I'm guessing I just lightly tap on her hoof wall, so would it be okay to use the back of a hoof pick instead of a hammer?
Hoof picks are usually to light to give a true percussive sound. Using a hammer, will give more accurate results. You don't have to whomp on the hoof, just tap it lightly. And tap all around the hoof(s) not just in one or two spots. In fact, you farrier should not only be willing to do this for you, but considering the potential for WLD to be present, should do it as a matter of course without even having to be asked.
Someone else mentioned that they wouldn't pull her shoes in July if she had anything going on. I completely agree and from what I've read about WLD , she may need special shoes to support the hoof while it grows out if it was severe. If we find there is no WLD or similar issues I would have no problem taking a month or two off from heavy work while she transitioned. I want my horse to be happy as possible, but if the dry conditions would make the transition worse, should I wait until late fall or winter?
IMNTBCHO, yes!.
Somebody also mentioned flies, is there any chance that some of the cracking is the result of stomping her feet?
Yes.

[calshoer]

Better nailing depends on the correct location and pitch of the nail holes Well Gee Rick, that is exactly why I said a closer fit of the shoe AND if necessary repunch the nail holes......didjamissthat?

And I do not agree with you that a shoe wider than the front portion of the foot, especially in the toe area does not encourage flares and cracking, because in my experience it DOES just that. A shoe fit just to the edge of the dressed wall in the toe corners, but NO wider, will discourage flaring and cracking. There is NO GOOD REASON, even with a pad, to have the shoe that damn wide. In my experience fixing loads of flared cracked feet, even with a pad, only the rear half of the shoe needs to be a little wider than normal to allow for the edge of the pad to be boxed.
Not the front portion. Leaving the shoe wider for a pad in the front half of the foot encourages the result we see in the picture. And the clip in this instance is useless because it is hanging out in thin air, unless perhaps the farrier had the sides filled with a rebiulding compound and it has since fallen out.

I guess we can agree to disagree, but personally I fix way too many just like this in one or two shoeings with nothing more than a proper size shoe fit closer in thetoe corners and properly nailed on, to believe it is not primarily the shoe fit causing a lot of the issues.
Patty

[silverleprichuan]

Rick Burten-

I talked to my vet for quite a while in March when she was off and he discussed what he did. Hoof testers were used back in March and she did not show any abnormal tenderness to my knowledge. If I remember correctly the vet said that she had clean x-rays, no reaction to the tester, but I had found a huge rock in her shoe a day or two earlier so he felt that she might have been off due to slight sub-solar bruising. I took notes at the time but it's been a while since I looked at them, so I will see if I can find them.

My school started late so I do not get out of school until this Friday (I have exams starting tomorrow). During summer vacations, thankgiving, and winterbreaks I am there when she's shod but since my farrier usually comes out mid-morning tuesdays or thursday I can't be there during the school year.

The vet said he would recommend using the pads for 3 shoeing cycles and my farrier said that we would give it a try and see how she went. A week after putting on the pads she was 100% back, so he decided to go with the vet's advice and use them for the next two cycles.

I have not talked to my farrier in 6wks (we're both busy and keep on missing each others calls), so I do not know if he tapped the outside of her hoof wall last time he shod her. I don't remember him doing so in the past, but then again, until recently I understood very little about what he was doing when he was shoeing her.(not saying that I'm an expert by any stretch of the imagination, just that I've learned more since then).

calshoer- A month or two ago I posted some pics of her feet asking people to critique the job my farrier was doing. Not because I was questioning his abilities but because I was trying to learn as much as I could about my horses feet from other professionals. They agreed that I should not question him, it was rude to do so, and he was doing a good job. I can post the same pics I posted back then. Is it possible that he's shoeing her differently but I am unable to recognzie the difference between then and now?

Pic
#1: Front freet in mid April (front)
#2: Last weekend (sorry for the dirty blurry feet) (back left)
#3: March (back right)

he's using different shoes on her back feet, if that makes any difference with her front feet. (i asked him about this in the message I left)

[Gary Hill]

It must be my poor eyesite looking and reading to much puter, but the toe actually looks kinda set back doesn't it? The missing portion is just that too, it looks like the wall broke off or the compound fell out? I think a larger and differant angle picture would show more? Best, Gary

[Rick Burten]

Well Gee Rick, that is exactly why I said a closer fit of the shoe AND if necessary repunch the nail holes......didjamissthat?
Nope, I didn't miss a word. You will note though that I did emphasize that the skill of the person doing the nailing was also an important(if not overarching) factor. Best fit shoes with the most correctly placed and sized nail holes ain't worth squat if the person driving the nails can't do so correctly.
And I do not agree with you that a shoe wider than the front portion of the foot, especially in the toe area does not encourage flares and cracking, because in my experience it DOES just that.
Well, since this horse is also wearing pads, and pads, at least to me when I'm fitting up, are extensions of the hoof wall, then this shoe fit/job, looks pretty spot on. And unless I've missed something, that wall chipping/cracking isn't occuring at the toe, and the form it is taking most resembles hoof wall that has been undermined by pathogens.
A shoe fit just to the edge of the dressed wall in the toe corners, but NO wider, will discourage flaring and cracking.
Sez who? Besides, we're not talking about damage at the toe corners are we?
There is NO GOOD REASON, even with a pad, to have the shoe that damn wide.
First, its not fit all that wide, and second, perhaps your penchant for the NB fit and set back application of those shoes is coloring your opinions.
In my experience fixing loads of flared cracked feet, even with a pad, only the rear half of the shoe needs to be a little wider than normal to allow for the edge of the pad to be boxed.
Apparently our experiences are vastly different. That said, I'm not advocating fitting to a flare(which is not really in evidence in the case under review), and fitting a shoe tighter than that around the front portion of the hoof leads to wall dubbing and further weakness. And it is demonstrable,merely by looking at the shoe and pad packages ammended to the feet of showring Saddlebreds, NSH, etal, that your contention is erroneous.
Not the front portion. Leaving the shoe wider for a pad in the front half of the foot encourages the result we see in the picture.
I contend that anyone who fits a shoe narrow in the front half of the foot , after a pad has been added, is doing a disservice to the horse and is incorrectly setting the package. And since we don't really know what the cause (of the damage to the hoof under discussion)is, it is rather disingenuous to place the blame on the(actually correct) fit of the orthotics either partially or in total.
And the clip in this instance is useless because it is hanging out in thin air, unless perhaps the farrier had the sides filled with a rebiulding compound and it has since fallen out.
I agree that at this time, the clip is not of any value. that said, as you rightly pointed out, you/we don't know what the job looked like when it was first done, so our opinions on the subject are of little probative value.
I guess we can agree to disagree, but personally I fix way too many just like this in one or two shoeings with nothing more than a proper size shoe fit closer in thetoe corners and properly nailed on, to believe it is not primarily the shoe fit causing a lot of the issues.
We all have our success stories, beliefs and opinions. Makes for lively debate, don't you think?
:)

[smitty88]

Silverleprichuan
if you can get the next shoeing job
for us before and after by the same

farrier we all might get a better insight
on whats been done by your farrier

he is possible doing the best he can
and if anybody in the room here

can throw a few pointers well and good

[silverleprichuan]

I rode her today and afterwards I tapped on her hooves which rung like bells. I tapped on other hooves and none sounded hollow or bell-like but they were all barefoot. I have the vet coming out friday morning and looking at her feet, it he thinks there might be any WLD going on he's going to pull her shoes and take X-rays. Hopefully my farrier will be able to come out the following day to shoe her after we have gotten the vet's imput. I'll be back out on Saturday (possibly friday afternoon) so I should be able to get pictures of right before and after he does her feet.
In general my farrier also recommended applying a thin layer of bees wax to help maintain the moisture level inside her hoof. Has anyone had sucess with this? What is the best way to apply it?

[silverleprichuan]

quick update. I spoke extensively with my trainer and farrier and we decided that he will come out tomorrow as planned to thoroughly inspect her feet. If he sees anything that would lead him to believe she had WLD or something similar he is to leave her shoes off and the vet will see her the following day. If he doesn't see anything, he will shoe her as he normally would and I'll cancel the appointment.