Different pastern angles

[LXEquine]

I have a bit of an issue with two different angles on the front hooves. The attached image shows it quite well. The right foot looks pretty normal, but the left shows a problem with subluxation. I applied EDSS with wedge rails to both fronts. That brought the left into better alignment, but the right was jacked up too much. The consulting vet initially advised against putting different angles on the different feet, so that's why I used the same wedge rails on both. Now, I have him in Natural Balance shoes (with pads) and he's returned to the way he was before... of course. The vet and I agreed to try leaving the right foot as is and wedge the left foot up again. Does anyone out there have any experience with this sort of thing? Is it advisable to shoe each hoof differently? One thing to note is that this horse shows no lameness at all... but then again, he's been nerved! Thanks.

[Double C Forge]

In my opinon Yes. I have a customer that has a thoroughbred who wears a #2 flat victory elite on the right front and a 3 degree wedge on the left front. This was the prescription of the attending Vet and he has been in this for 2 years w/ multiple xrays taken and does very well indeed. Without the wedge he will come up sore otherwise he shows & jumps just fine.

[kevintheshoer]

I would shoe per-hoof if there would be issues if pairs were matched.

You mention that this horse compansates well ,,,,"One thing to note is that this horse shows no lameness at all",,, if I may? reading into this suggest that there is no notable movement or gait irregularity?

If that is the case, there is a chance that this horse had just learned how to negotiate the waight shift, (left vs right) and setting the right to match will remove a little of that pattern?

I would venture a bet that this horse favors a right lead and has a lot more mussle build up on the right?

You mention subluxation, but to me it looks like a tight SFT is helping P-1 and P-2 missalingment?

[Ronald Aalders]

One thing to note is that this horse shows no lameness at all... but then again, he's been nerved! Thanks.

Good pics Lowell. They clearly show the points of interest, and help focus on what's going on.

But Lowell, what would have been the reason to 'nerve' the horse? My guess would be palmar hoofpain. Some navicular related problems?

You have a bit more than 'an issue' on your hands here. The LF has a zero degree (maybe a tad less) palmar angle. That is way too low! In fact it is so low there is no way the joint surface of the coffin bone can cup the distal end of the short pastern bone. See how P3 and P2 just touch in the front leaving this wedge of nothing behind? This puts severe strain on ligaments and tendons but also on the bones and their growth centers. The navicular bone for one (that likely got the horse nerved in the first place), but also this horse will end up with arthrosis dorsally of that joint sooner or later. And don't be surprised if one day the extensor process of P3 breaks of completely either.

What you need to do is reduce the forces at play here. You already started using the NB shoes. However although others like Patty have more authority here, I'm pretty sure that breakover is too far forward. If I'm not mistaken the NB prescribes breakover at the apex of P3 not in front of that!

I see a lot of good shoers work on extremely low heels making the same mistake. On such low feet breakover needs to be brought back way back. Way more than you'd think do-able. And what further complicates matters with such feet is that the hoofcapsule will have migrated forward. Making you as a shoer loosing track of natural markings in a foot. You can not rely on those anymore simply because the hoofcapsule is no longer where it should be.

By bringing back breakover you achieve two important things. First you reduce the forces needed to have the foot breakover, and second you improve the efficiency of wedges. Huh? Yes, by reducing breakover you need less wedge. The wedges you used on the LF will only serve to crush the heels on that foot more. By bringing back breakover (moving the shoe backward) you will also gain support in the heel area. This is why banana shoes are so effective in cases like these.

I'm no fan of using different shoes and or pads on a horse. But you may have to here. What you are looking for is getting the palmar angle of the LF as high as the palmar angle on the RF. Rads are needed here. Don't forget to bring back breakover, without it you will have to stack huge wedges on the LF and you don't want that.

Don't think I'm exaggerating here. On a nerved horse with this kind of palmar angle it is not unlikely DDFT is going to be ruptured over the navicular bone. When that happens you'll have one horse less to shoe.

This is exactly why on nerved horses the shoeing is even more critical than on a normal horse. A horse that still has feel in the posterior part of it's foot will go lame when there is trouble, a nerved horse will not ruining everything there is to ruin.


Ronald Aalders

[SlowShoe]

As an observation the Navicular bone looks much larger in the Left foot. Woudl this be a sign of desiesed navicular?

Josh

[LXEquine]

Thanks for the replies. They're much help.

This horse was, in fact, diagnosed with navicular syndrome. That's when he was nerved.

Regarding the breakover: it is a bit ahead of where it should be. The consulting vet didn't mark the apex of the frog, so I used my best estimate. According to the radiographs, it's about 4mm ahead of where I'd like it. I appreciate you pointing that out. Because I've been so concerned about the pastern angles, I neglected to take care of the basics.

[Gary Hill]

Slowshoe, I think the left picture is taken abit closer that the rt was? The navicular does look bigger because of the angle? The top of the fetlock is also cut off abit due to the closer shot.

[SlowShoe]

Slowshoe, I think the left picture is taken abit closer that the rt was? The navicular does look bigger because of the angle? The top of the fetlock is also cut off abit due to the closer shot.

I dont know, It looks comparativly bigger. I know its a little closer, but its still larger when you compare it to the rest of the bones.

Josh

[Forgewizard]

LX,

Yup, I'd definitely shoe the hooves individually but with an attempt at equalizing the horse's movement.

Wedging or lifting the broken back hoof to come to a closer alignment and bringing the breakover back will help bring it into a more even step with the other hoof.

I have several horses on my roster that wear different sized shoes. Sometimes they eventually get the same size (pairs) with maybe one stretched slightly or the other shortenend slightly - but if the hooves have been mismatched for a long period of time, sometimes you just cannot get them mated.

My mentor put it this way; If you get a flat tire on your car do you go to the other tire on that axle and flatten it too so the car is now even? Works the same way in reverse IF a horse needs a lift on one hoof, it isn't necessarry to lift the other hoof- because now the disparity is only continued - and the one hoof may not have needed lifting anyway!

Those are about the nicest, clearest X-rays I've seen posted! Thanks!
Regards,
Kim

[Bo Terry]

If Ronald didn't say it loud enough....banana shoes or full roller motions (same principle) IMO would be very beneficial to this horse. Specifically the Left foot.

Bo

[Bradley-1stChoice]

I have a number of horses that have a wedge pad on one foot.

One in particular, was about to be put down,
due to long term sever lameness.
On the first visit I saw immediately that it needed a wedge.
I put a 3deg. wedge on one foot and the horse came sound,
and has been that way for one and a half years.

One thing to look for when wedging one foot and not the other,
is make sure the knees are the same height.

I have found that normally the wedge brings the knees to equal height,
when barefoot or otherwise shod in flat shoes,
had the knees at an unequal height.

Still, before I build the shoe package,
when the horse is trimmed as best I can get it,
and standing on a flat surface,
I slip the wedge under the bare foot that needs it,
And the look from the front
To check the knee height.
If it looks good (and some times I measure)
And I have equal pastern hoof alignment,
And have equal angles on the hoof wall
I proceed to build the shoe package.

[Bradley-1stChoice]

I forgot to mention in the above post,
That the horse needs to be standing square and loaded equaly on both legs,
That is to say standing square on the ground and square up top in the shoulders,
so each leg is bearing equal weight. Other wise the one leg that is loaded with more weight,
will have a lower fetlock and lower knee.

I also just noticed that the first post was from 5-11-06
No matter, these issues are timeless.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Bradley-1stChoice in gray, deletia

One thing to look for when wedging one foot and not the other, is make sure the knees are the same height.

To expound a bit on this excellent advice, an imaginary line between the most medial aspects of the radial carpal bones (the bone on the inside of the knee that appear to be "pointed") should be parallel to the ground; i.e., the "points" should be equal in height when the horse is standing square on a flat surface.

[Bradley-1stChoice]

Bradley-1stChoice in gray, deletia

One thing to look for when wedging one foot and not the other, is make sure the knees are the same height.

To expound a bit on this excellent advice, an imaginary line between the most medial aspects of the radial carpal bones (the bone on the inside of the knee that appear to be "pointed") should be parallel to the ground; i.e., the "points" should be equal in height when the horse is standing square on a flat surface.

Thank-you for being clear Tom, that is exactly where I am looking.

[calshoer]

Lowell, as everyone else pretty much already mentioned ,there is no reason to shoe both feet with the same the same amount of wedge, when the feet are not the same naturally to begin with.
There are many available options.
You could use EDSS with as much rail and frog support as it takes on the LF to get the bone alignment and slight heel first movement, with EDSS with as little (or no)rails on the RF to align the bones of that foot.

Or the NB with the pad as it is on the RF, then drill and tap an NB to accept rails, and do the same package on the left but then add the rails and some screwed on frog support at the back of the NB pad. (a sort of 'homemade' EDSS)
Part of NB principles and EDSS is to shoe each foot individuallyto met the needs of that foot.

Also (without seeing actual pictures of the foot) baed on just these pictures I would suggest a bit longer shoe, maybe size larger if necessary, to get a bit more heel support. From the Xrays,these look maybe a little short.
Patty

[frustrated]

What if you had one with similar rads that had DSLD symptoms? Would a wedge be avoided? What would be the best for a horse like this?

[calshoer]

I don't think the horse was standing squarely and evenly loaded on both front feet when the pics were snapped. See how the cannon bone (the very top bone that is partly in the picture) of the left picture was obviously leaning forward? If he did not have that leg exactly vertical, it would totally skew the pastern angle evaluation.

The HORSE must be standing with cannon bones exactly *vertical* and BOTH feet on equal height X-ray blocks when the picture is taken, or else all joint alignment assessment goes out the window.
Patty

[calshoer]

As to the DSLD, usually they have very LOW slung fetlocks, and low pastern angles (just the opposite of this). Has the vet done ultrasound exams of the suspensory ligaments to diagnose? Patty

[Brian Purrington]

RHSD strikes again....:D

[frustrated]

RHSD strikes again....:D
More like cybercondriac. This site makes me one of these everytime. I see why you guys don't like us much most of the time. :confused:

[calshoer]

OK, whats RHSD??

[Rick Burten]

M guess is Right Handed Shoer's Disease

[Brian Purrington]

Good guess :D

But... I went back to look at the pics I was commenting on and couldn't find them, which means I posted the RHSD comment on the wrong thread.

I feel like a BHA.

[Matt_McMicken]

The way I was taught back in FL, by an excellent farrier, was to shoe the foot. Whether one is different than the other, just shoe the foot. That concept has worked very well for me when others couldnt make a horse go very well.