Problem Children...PLEASE HELP!!!

[Doc_Hoof]

I am at my wits end with these daggum horses. My customer has several horses and I would hate to lose her account due to two obstinate butt-holes. One is an arab/morgan cross used in 4-H. Gentle, meek and excellent ground manners. She used to be a dream to shoe, now she won't even let anyone pick up her hinds. Second is a basket case quarter horse. This one has been sedated with Rompun and no effect, mixed Promace 3cc, Torbin 1cc and Xylene 2cc and the butt-hole acted like it was SALINE!!! Then, after consulting with the vet, we tried 6cc Promace mixed with 2cc Torbin and still wouldn't even let me touch below the cannon bone without trying to kill me. According to the owner, the last farrier was an ***** from what she has told me. His idea of correcting bad behavior was to make the horse rear up, then spin the horse on its hinds until it fell over (HUH???). I have never heard of such a thing, but it has apparently scared the dickens out of these two horses. I have tried almost everything from stud chains over the nose as well as under the upper lip, hobbles, tying the feet up over the neck, massive sedation etc. Everything either endangers the horse or myself and has failed. Even my vet is about to throw in the towel and suggest complete unconscious sedation for the shoeing. He has quoted me $250 per horse, if we can do both on the same day or pay an additional $100 remobilization fee. I have a hard time telling my customer it is going to cost $305 to shoe her horse. Or, maybe I need to just forget her 12 horses and move on to easier feet. Anybody have a suggestion it would be greatly appreciated.

[HoustonFarrier]

Shoeing stocks would be cheaper. They make then in "regular" horse size as well as draft sized.

Steve

[mbetteridge]

I would explain to the client that you are more than happy to do the other ten horses, but you're not going to the do the two problem horses until they have been trained to stand nicely and have their feet done. It's not worth you getting seriously injured or worse just to get them done. If the client can't understand that, so be it, let her find someone else.

[Dave Purves]

Dormosidan, dormosidan, dormosidan. We like to refer to rompin as rompin stompin. Sometimes it works, and sometimes the horses have a bad trip and flip out. Dormosidan is the best tranq on the market for sedating horses for shoeing and trimming in my opinion. You probably have an old school vet that is using the old school tranqs and there is better stuff on the market. Either that, or fire them boogers.

disclaimer:
I do not claim to have the correct spelling for these sedatives or any other word that I type.

Dave

[kevintheshoer]

It is one thing to have a good coustmer, 12 is a nice account, but not worth getting hurt over. I have quit coustmers with that same number that ask to "try" horses with hoof problims.

I have placed my tools in the middle of a round pen and used a little new-school training.

I have a little time for horses that need it, I can have more patience then trees. Our business is as much a horse business as it is a peoples business, but I have no time for coustmers that expect it.

Bet I can load my tools faster then a migic trick! the next time I hear, "your going to earn your money with this one" !

Sorry to hear of the horses bad experance, that horse is just acting on a will to live, there are shoers like that everywere you go, it may take a long time to get that horse's trust back. Stocks or restrants may be a little risky with that type of phobias?

[John Emsley]

Kevin, Dave is absolutely right. Dormsedan(1/2-3/4 ml) and can be combined withTorbugestic Butorphanol (1/2 ml). The difference between this sed. is that they don't go in and out of sedation, like the others you mentioned. I just did a 15 year old stud that isn't broke and will jump at the least little thing. He's part of a 45 horse stable that I have been doing near thirty years, fortunately the others are far more pleasant. Tranc. doesn't teach them anything but at least you're able to get the job done and on to more pleasant beasts. :cool: Good luck, John

[kevintheshoer]

Thanks!

Thats why I'm here!

I just did a Google on Dormsedan, and it came up 3 times, twice from here, once from an accedent report with a horse trailer.

http://www.homestead.com/chasrescue/traileraccident803.html

I don't need to hear things 3 times if it makes life easer. The Rompen-Stompen allways seems like a good way to end a careeer, as it was just a little more pridictable then soakng blow-darts in frog-skins.

I will call one of the larger service near hear and ask about it, things just been running too smoothly lately, if ya know what I mean?

[Derin Foor]

Doc Hoof,

if my math is correct, the vet is charging almost 5X what you are for this job and YOU are the one that stands to get hurt or killed thanks to some unruly beast (and a vet that isnt up to speed on what drugs work best in this situation)........think about that and tell me if that makes sense


Dave and John are right, Dormosedan and possibly something else mixed in

I wouldnt care if they had 112 horses, if that one hurts you, the other good horses wont matter and they will have someone else doing them in no time

proper sedation or walk away while you can would be my advise

Derin

[Rick Burten]

Though dormosedan is my chemical restraint of choice, it will not always be effective and a horse can still blow through it. The lump under my eye is testament to that fact. Any chemically restrained horse can still be very dangerous unless it is completly sedated and the sedation is on a controlled drip the entire time you are working. For a horse to blow through a Torbegesic coctail would mean that I would have to consider long and hard whether I wanted anything to do with that beast.

It doesn't matter how big the account is. If that horse puts you out of work, regardless of for how long, you lose. Unless of course the owner is willing to sign an agreement that guarantees s/he will pay your wages until you are ready to go back to work, and then for as long after that as it takes you to rebuild your practice to its former level.

[Gary Hill]

I'm with you Rick, nothing works all the time but well trained horses. Walking away instead of sticking them gets the owner to finally realize they own a puke not a horse. Best drug -M99 ie Elephant Juice, bad thing is it would kill a horse ,which to me if he ain't trained to pick up his own feet it ain't worth me getting hurt. Best, Gary

[tbloomer]

I have several trainers that I refer my customers to when they have horses with behavior problems. If the customer does not accept the referral, then they have to find another farrier. Since the REAL solution to behavior problems is behavior modification, I offer a REAL SOLUTION. If the customer doesn't like the solution, then they are more concerned about their pocketbook then they are about the safety of themselves and other humans who would be placed in harms way.

Why should you risk your life in order to make it OK for your customer to own a dangerous animal? Why would you want to work for someone with that kind of misplaced ethics?

[Bill Adams]

Everyone has covered the bases here very well.
What you have here is eather a client who is willing to risk your life so they can save a few bucks, or you risking your life so as not to ofend a coustomer with the real cost of owning their horse.
You'er not looking at loseing a dosen horses, you're looking at loseing all the horses you do.
You can work this to your addvantage by acting profesional and standing by what you say and what is best for you and the horse. You may pyss off an owner, but the others around who have some sence will respect you for it.
My $0.02,
Bill

[Tim Hutton]

I was shoeing a horse 2 weeks ago that was sedated with rompin, I was on the last foot and all of a sudden the horse "came out of it" and I have been sitting at my house healing up since then. It took 3 trips to the chiropractor before I had any feeling in the left side of my body. I will be out of work for at least another week, and I'll tell you, if you're use to making money, it hurts when all of a sudden you aren't.

While I've been laying around the house the past few days, I've called all of my clients that have horses that don't stand very well, and told them to either have them trained or find someone else to shoe them.

Take care,
Tim Hutton

[Phil Armitage]

After all you have tried and been through, you can justify saying sorry I refuse to get under those two until the problem is fixed. Been fired by a few because I refused to get under dangerous horses. Looseing this barn is better than looseing everything. If this owner does not know how to train these two, then they should hire a trainer that can. The feet can stay long until they are trained.

[Rancho JD]

Tough situation for sure. one of the many reasons there are so few of us compared to say truck drivers, secretaries, electricians, plumbers, latte foamers etc...

You mentioned consulting with a vet but has one ever been called out to handle the sedation? Many, if asked, will stay and hold some kind of restraint, plug the ears with cotton or administer more and the correct amount of drugs as needed. Nobody has more experience working with sedated animals.

Most owners will quickly be disgusted with paying so much and make some hard decisions about the horse, or you may get fired and the world turns.

Anyway the owner gets a large bill and alot to think about. You stand a better chance at staying sound (critical in keeping all accounts) and it just feels better working with a professional.

Dormosedan
Ace
Rompun
Torbogesic

its a pretty effective cocktail, seems to keep 3 feet on the ground when you've got one in the air. good luck

[Derin Foor]

Dormosedan
Ace
Rompun
Torbogesic

its a pretty effective cocktail, seems to keep 3 feet on the ground when you've got one in the air. good luck


Amen brother,

Derin

[Karen B.]

I can really sing the praises of Dormosedan...I purchased a really nice looking blue roan QH mare at the auction,super bloodlines,rode great etc....untill we got her home. :rolleyes: touch her feet with any type of tool and she would flip over back wards.I called the last owner listed on the coggins to see *** the problem was and she told me her brother trimmed her twice a year.They would throw her down,tie her up and the brother trimmed her with a SAWZALL!!! Former owner stated "the mare didn't much like the noise from the sawzall"! UM...YEAH do ya think????? At least that explained the rope burns on the mare's ankles. The mare never could get past the terror of it all so 1cc of dormosedan IM, 20 minutes before my farrier showed up did the trick.She never flinched,moved,looked etc.......never had a problem after that.I would stop off at the vet,buy my tranque the day before the mare was being done,give it to her before he arrived and everyone was happy. :D

[Rick Burten]

I too prefer dormosedan. The caveat is that it doesn't always secure the hind end. Its more effective than Rompum, which is totally ineffective in securing the hind end, but a horse can blow through it, especially with a hind leg, and I've got the rearranged (but now mostly healed) right side of my face to prove it. And a witness too :)

[Doc_Hoof]

Just an update for all those who replied. Some good news, some amazingly weird. The owner finally had the vet come out to sedate the horses while they were shod at her expense. First horse, the arab cross went to sleep easily and was shod with no problems. Second horse, or the one from Satans bloodline, was sedated with the same sedative Dormosedan. Horse was left alone for 20 minutes after sedation and vet pronounced the animal safe to work on. He actually tapped the horse on the muzzle with no reaction at all. Horse was staggering just standing there. I got my tools together and approached the horse with no problems. Got to pick out the LF hoof before absolute hell broke out. Horse went absolutely bonkers through the sedation! The vet was miffed, this horse should have been so far asleep, a freight train could have been pulled from her butt without so much as a whimper. Vet said we could try complete sedation, as in on the ground asleep, but would have to come out tomorrow as the two sedatives don't mix well. Next day, we come out and another farrier in the area came along with me to laugh it up at my expense or help, whichever came first. While waiting for the vet to arrive, he tried picking up the horses feet just for poops and giggles. Wouldn't you know it, horse stood absolutely perfectly still and even turned his head around to sniff the butt crack. So, Jeff feels a bit brave and starts paring the sole while the horse acts like a statue. Then, after I hand him a set of nippers, Satans pet allows him to nip the hoof and rasp it. I was flabbergasted! After Jeff finished the front, I tried picking the horses hoof up and the war was back on. We let the horse settle back down and Jeff went to the LR and had the same effect, not so much as a twitch from the horse during the entire trim. He wound up finishing the horse while me, the vet and owner stood there with our jaws on the ground. Once all four shoes were on, the owner walked over and tried picking up a hoof and the horse darn near killed her. So, in short, Jeff and I now split her horses and he gets to shoe Satans pet...Hopefully.

[cordell_rogers]

1cc of dormosedan IM, 20 minutes before my farrier showed up did the trick.
Now we now you're not telling the truth. How in the world did you know it would be 20 minutes until the farrier would show up?

[Bill Adams]

Doc,
Thanks for the story. This is why we love/hate 'em.
Bill

[Karen B.]

Now we now you're not telling the truth. How in the world did you know it would be 20 minutes until the farrier would show up?


Because he would call me on his cell phone and say "shoot her up now,I'm on my way" .

[J.H. shoeing]

bless you.

[Forgewizard]

Doc,

While I am a firm believer that horse & farrier personalities can either mesh or clash; you may want to evaluate your stance and how much you are flexing or how much pull you are applying to the leg. Something else to check is your apron's belt and buckles, or cell phone clips or keys hooked to your waist belt.


Regards,
Kim

[Bill Adams]

Yabut Kim,
What about everyone else involved with this horse?
Bill