old Lamellar wedge

[Forgewizard]

Picked up a new client with a paso mare that foundered a few years ago, apparently the lamellar wedge at that time was not addressed correctly. So the hoof growth has been distorted. Our lovely Florida environment encouraged the development of " seedy Toe" and a nice infection of White Line disease. So here are pix of before and after.

The "before" photo shows how the mare had literally fallen through the open shoe applied by previous farrier. What appears to be the coffin bone protruding is actually old-out grown yet exposed solar corium. Believe me, my heart jumped into my mouth when I first saw this hoof!

My question is, does it look like I removed enough? I don't have x-rays to go by-so just went by "what felt right". Debriding any infection sights and rasping back distorted wall. Applied an "Epona" Shoe which offers some gentle heart bar support, gel sole support and wide web wall coverage. Did this work on Saturday, then rescheduled the rest of her horses for today. So I got to see the mare again.

Although the mare moves with a grade 1 lameness on that hoof (pretty much the same as what she was before), she does seem to be standing better - not camped under nor moving toe-heel, rather she land's fairly flat footed now -not quite heel-toe yet.

Curious to see what others think.:)

Regards,
Kim

http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/FerraOFDrsB4O41506.JPG (http://s2.supload.com/free/FerraOFDrsB4O41506.JPG/view/)

http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/FerraOFDrsDn041506a.JPG (http://s2.supload.com/free/FerraOFDrsDn041506a.JPG/view/)

[Dr. Esco Buff]

Hello Kim,

It can be normal to see the solar corim in cases that have been let go or severe bacteria infections.

From your photo of the after work done, it is my opinion that you did a fantastic job at dressing back the hoof wall and reducing the laminar wedge.

Good job.

Esco Buff, PhD, CF

[Red Amor]

Lovely work Kim

[Ronald Aalders]

A lateral and solar view would help here Kim.

You need to be sure about the position of P3 within the hoofcapsule. If P3 is still rotated, you need to derotate, no matter how long ago the horse foundered. Without that you'll never get rid of the lamellar wedge.

Also from what I can tell of the after pic break over could be moved back further. On cases like this you can not really overdo ease of break over. It greatly reduces tearing forces acting on P3 and laminae. That goes for stable cases too! It also improves sole growth, lack of this may be one of the reasons the horse is still sore.


Ronald Aalders

[Forgewizard]

Hi Ron,
Yeah, I really wish I did have the Xrays to go by for that horse. But maybe next time...

I forgot to get a solar shot of the trimmed hoof and even though the owner was taking pix, she doesn't have one either. Oh well, guess I'll get that next time too.

But here are more shots of that hoof: Let me know your thoughts!
Thanks!
Kim


http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/FerraOFLatB4041506.JPG (http://s2.supload.com/free/FerraOFLatB4041506.JPG/view/)

http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/FerraOFLatDn0415060.JPG (http://s2.supload.com/free/FerraOFLatDn0415060.JPG/view/)


http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/FerraOFSlrB4041506.JPG (http://s2.supload.com/free/FerraOFSlrB4041506.JPG/view/)

http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/FerraOFSlrDn041506.JPG (http://s2.supload.com/free/FerraOFSlrDn041506.JPG/view/)

[Ronald Aalders]

Hi Kim,

Lateral view is better than it appeared to be from the previous pic. And please understand me here, I'm not writing this to tell you messed up. You helped the horse out big time here. Now let's see if we can get it sound too.

If those lines you're always drawing help you fine, but remember those are your lines and your interpretation of them. I'm only saying that you don't want to get stuck to those lines. (For one I really doubt P3 has the position as in your drawing and another thing is that this foot is distorted. You're helping the horse by focussing on P3, not the hoofcapsule)

I know what it is to work without X-rays, it's a pain (and the results are by chance at best, I heard a guy with a ponytail once say) but for us working in the field sometimes there is no other option.

I have not seen the after trim solar view, but be sure to trim heels to the widest part of the frog. Start trimming from the apex of the trimmed frog backward. Leave all of the toe! (Frankly I don't care what kind of mess it is, you can not add, you can only remove by trimming) You're not looking to overdo it but if you have to mess up you'd better overdo lowering of the heels than keep them up too high. If you're positive the heels are brought back enough, raise heels. When heels are brought back enough ANY raise reduces DDFT pull and shifts load to the heels.

Be sure to leave anything that resembles anterior sole. I don't know if it happened to you here but a lot of shoers (including myself years ago!) tend to focus on the foot too much. As in any shoeing, focus on the position of P3, forget about the foot shape. Trust me when I tell you that in this case if the growth centers have not been permanently damaged and you manage to get P3 in a zero palmar angle, all you need to do is raise heels and reduce break over to allow the foot to grow back normally. (And normal has a wide range :rolleyes: )

Personally I do not remove lamillar wedges too often. (Although cases like this may well be an exception) They tend to grow out IF you managed to re-establish the position of P3 and reduced the tearing of the lamillae by reducing DDFT and easing break over, dorsally, but in medial and lateral direction too.

Kim, it's important to understand this correctly, on such cases your first and foremost objective is not to comfort the horse. The first and foremost objective should be to realign P3, reduce DDFT pull by using wedges and easing break over. So you're not looking at nice soft forgiving plastic shoes, you're looking for shoes that allow for the use of support material, allow wedges, rails or what have you and allow reduction of break over.

Looking at the pics, (and those usually are big time misleading as they probably will be here) what I think happened here is that you could have lowered heels a tad more. And I mean a 'tad' here! For sure breakover can be brought back more. After removing a bit more heel you further need to use wedges. DON'T use wedges until you're sure heels are lowered enough! (If you can not lower heels enough to derotate P3 glue-ons come in. That's why rads are so important.)

A banana would be the ticket here, but you may want to try a NB shoe with a wedge (heartbar) pad and pour in. Be sure to leave the toe of the shoe floating by cutting out the pad there. If placed correctly you will notice that the nails will automatically move backward. That's why I think (If my judgment of the pics is correct here!) there is a problem with your shoe placement. The toe nails should not be there, they should be where the second nails are. The other two should be behind that towards the heels.

Give it a try, this may well be an experiment that is going to permanently change the way you're treating foundered horses!

Good luck.


Ronald Aalders

[Andrew Grimm]

Ron,
Great learning experiance for me also.
First, I would like to ask what a laminar wedge is? Is this the dishing in the toe of a founderd horse?
Second, you said that if you cant lower the heels enough that that's when glue ons come into play. How can a glue on reduce the heels?
Thirdly, when you take the heels down and say you realign P3 dosen't wedging un align it?
Fourth, when you use a pad and cut out the toe do you trim your foot, shape your shoe, and then cut the pad from just behind the tip of the frog forward? and then if using frog support you damn up the toe area before filling with say Equi-Pak?
Thanks a lot. You all are a great help.

[Forgewizard]

Hi Ron,

Thanks for the input. I have definitely encountered horses that were not happy with a forgiving shoe-and preferred & more rigid shoe.

when I trimmed her I took her heels down to where the sole became dense and moist (not chalky any more) but I have seen where, here in Florida, that can still leave a bit more extra sole. - I just am not comfortable yet going past that density marker. she'll propably exfoliate & lot more on the next visit if she follows similar reactions that other horses have.

When trimming she did not exhibit any solar bruising or coffin bone shadowing' that I've seen in other horses. Hoof testers didn't reveal any significant ouchiness variances - my testers are spring graduated so I can test with Similar pressures. At this 1st visit I pretty much just flatted the hoof sole after lowering the heels. I understand why you say allow a no pressure zone for the toe area.

I don't think this mare's growth ring is as disrupted as some foundered hooves are, she has no definite rippling-or grooving and doesn't have that coronet valley of a typical sinker. I've obtained the vet's phone number and am playing phone tag to at least get her old Xrays. Still pushing for new trays.

I'm curious about your thoughts of the lam. wedge growing out eventually. Are you saying this will happen if the P3 is properly realigned directly after the founder? This horse foundered 3 years ago. I'd think if the lamellar wedge was to grow out -it would have by now. But if the lamellar wedge is influenced by improper support to P3-is that why you feel it is still maintaining its presence?I was happy to see the debriding get past the infection tracts.

I didn't feel comfortable with taking more toe back this trip because while debriding she "sprung a small leak" so I decided to stop there. It could have been an old blood pocket-but without that X-ray vision I halted there.-would you have continued debiting past the stretched laminae to locate the real toe?

Do you insist your clients produce current X-rays before taking on a laminitis or foundered case? Do you find much compliance? I find that often these folks are pretty well jaded from previous work that didn't work, so are hesitant to invest much more money in another "trial" (which is what I try to make clear to them - what works for one horse may not work for theirs.)

I understand your observations of my lines and my notes on clients pix try to disclaim any errors in real positioning, to encourage those all important x-rays.

Thanks for your insight! This will be an interesting case to follow.

Regards,
Kim

[Ronald Aalders]

Forgewizard black, me red.

Hi Ron,

Hi

Thanks for the input. I have definitely encountered horses that were not happy with a forgiving shoe-and preferred & more rigid shoe.

when I trimmed her I took her heels down to where the sole became dense and moist (not chalky any more) but I have seen where, here in Florida, that can still leave a bit more extra sole. - I just am not comfortable yet going past that density marker. she'll propably exfoliate & lot more on the next visit if she follows similar reactions that other horses have.


What you are looking for is support. Bring heels back so the heels and widest part of the frog are on one line. This is the only way to provide support and come up with a proper base to raise heels on. Frankly you're not looking at theorie on trims no more. Just provide support. You are only allowed to stop when you have reasons to believe the heels will be so short the horse is likely to be sore. It's not easy to get to that point!

When trimming she did not exhibit any solar bruising or coffin bone shadowing' that I've seen in other horses. Hoof testers didn't reveal any significant ouchiness variances - my testers are spring graduated so I can test with Similar pressures. At this 1st visit I pretty much just flatted the hoof sole after lowering the heels. I understand why you say allow a no pressure zone for the toe area.

I don't think this mare's growth ring is as disrupted as some foundered hooves are, she has no definite rippling-or grooving and doesn't have that coronet valley of a typical sinker. I've obtained the vet's phone number and am playing phone tag to at least get her old Xrays. Still pushing for new trays.

It's not uncommon for a long years chronic and stable case to not have rings anymore. They have grown out, the hoofcapsule adapted to the new (poor) situation and provided no new problems arose, the hoofcapsule will not necessarily form new growth rings.

I'm curious about your thoughts of the lam. wedge growing out eventually. Are you saying this will happen if the P3 is properly realigned directly after the founder? This horse foundered 3 years ago. I'd think if the lamellar wedge was to grow out -it would have by now. But if the lamellar wedge is influenced by improper support to P3-is that why you feel it is still maintaining its presence?I was happy to see the debriding get past the infection tracts.

The lamillar wedge will not grow out if the coffin bone is not properly derotated! In cases like this rotation present for years I can see that "removal of the lamillar wedge" is prudent. I "marked" removal of the lamillar wedge because in such cases you're not really removing the lamillar wedge, your just rasping the toe to get the foot in a somewhat normal shape. Because of the distorsion you'll go through the dorsal hoofwall and hit that residue of lamillae, pus, blood and all that. And even if there is any truth in the theory that the lamillar wedge pries between the hoofwall and the coffin bone pushing it further towards rotation, you do not need to remove the lamillar wedge but just the dorsal hoofwall. When that's gone, the lamillar wedge can't pry anymore!

I didn't feel comfortable with taking more toe back this trip because while debriding she "sprung a small leak" so I decided to stop there. It could have been an old blood pocket-but without that X-ray vision I halted there.-would you have continued debiting past the stretched laminae to locate the real toe?

I would definitely have brought break over further back, yes. This does not necessarily mean you need to leave the toe unprotected. It just means break over should be further back. You could taper the toe from the widest part of the shoe forward. You could use and aluminum plate to protect the foot while break over is elsewhere. You could use special types of shoes like the TRIS shoe by Colleoni, OR you could use a banana!

Do you insist your clients produce current X-rays before taking on a laminitis or foundered case? Do you find much compliance? I find that often these folks are pretty well jaded from previous work that didn't work, so are hesitant to invest much more money in another "trial" (which is what I try to make clear to them - what works for one horse may not work for theirs.)

If an owner insists I shoe the horse without rads he needs another shoer. I appreciate that money may be an issue, but without X-rays the succes of the procedure is left to chance. And that's not helpfull to the horse. (Unless you're a very lucky person I guess) Be sure to put that in writing if cir***stances make you work without rads

I understand your observations of my lines and my notes on clients pix try to disclaim any errors in real positioning, to encourage those all important x-rays.

Thanks for your insight! This will be an interesting case to follow.

You're very welcome!

Regards,
Kim

[Forgewizard]

Ron posted:

You are only allowed to stop when you have reasons to believe the heels will be so short the horse is likely to be sore. It's not easy to get to that point!
oh wow! You are definitely braver than I am! And here I thought I'd already gotten pretty radical! No, for me, it definitely would not be easy to get to that point.

When you say to remove so much heel-are you saying to do this upon the 1st visit? Would it mean continually aggressively removing the heel depth until "de rotation" is achieved? Do you think that not being quite so aggressive Can have the eventual outcome? So if I get X-rays of he P3 position and then apply a wedge accordingly with heels brought back you feel that this distorted wall will grow out more normally?

...provided no new problems arose, the hoofcapsule will not necessarily form new growth rings.
Now that's an interesting observation that makes sense!

OR you could use a banana!
Bound and determined to convert me into a "fruitful" farrier, eh Ron?;) I like the idea of moving the break over starting point from the widest part of the shoe in this case-since that obviously has been the most torqued part of her hoof -as can be seen in the original "before" photo. But I just am not comfortable making her a "tippy-canoe" shoe.

If an owner insists I shoe the horse without rads he needs another shoer
Eventually, maybe I'll get enough clout to insist on xrays before I start work. But all too often these folks are imploring" just one more shot" to get the horse right. All I can do is try to impress upon them that my very best work can only be done with x-rays-until then we are only hoping for the best. Sometimes the owners get X-rays done, sometimes (most often) they don't. Unfortunately by then, I've already seen the horse and can't hardly turn away with out at least trying something. -I'm a softee in that department.

Now you've got me wanting to try other things at my next visit! Thanks!


Regards,
Kim

[Ronald Aalders]

Kaizen, the Japanese call it. Continous progression.............

O and obviously on a laminitis case you don't have the luxury of taking things step by step. You need to do it at once. It's not radical, it's helping the horse.

Have fun!


Ronald Aalders

[A1Farrier4U]

Dear Kim,
I can't believe the severity of the horse you show! I'm amazed that you have done so well with what you've had to work with..congradulations! A1Farrier4U

[Hoof "N" It BF]

Hi Kim,
Here is something I haven’t seen brought up in this post, "diet" what is this horse eating right now, That is an important factor in this horses recovery too.
Also this will help with determining where the p3 is, it will give you a little X- ray vision if you want to call it. When you pick up the hoof and look at the sole what do you see? Take off all the chalky sole, but don’t cut into live sole look at the concavity or lack there of, more important look at the collateral grooves. If they are shallow you know there is very thin sole there and a receded coffin bone, ok with that determined, look at the new hoof growth, up at the cornet band were the laminae is growing out tight, and look at it from a side view at ground level, that is the angle of the coffin bone, if you need to put your hand around the rest of the hoof to see it might help or I can show you on your picture, now you can draw an imaginary line or use a straight edge to find the line too, and also the back of the heel were the back of the coffin bone is pointing, with those in mind it will help you determine on most horses where the coffin bone is sitting, once you learn this trick it helps allot. :) BUT until you get really good at it and understand it don’t rely entirely on it in extremely bad founder cases. in that case an X-ray is a big help.. And of course we all know that ;) I hope this helps.

[Forgewizard]

Hoofnit BF Posted:

Also this will help with determining where the p3 is, it will give you a little X- ray vision if you want to call it. When you pick up the hoof and look at the sole what do you see? Take off all the chalky sole, but don’t cut into live sole look at the concavity or lack there of, more important look at the collateral grooves. If they are shallow you know there is very thin sole there and a receded coffin bone, look at the new hoof growth, up at the cornet band were the laminae is growing out tight, and look at it from a side view at ground level, that is the angle of the coffin bone, if you need to put your hand around the rest of the hoof to see it might help or I can show you on your picture, now you can draw an imaginary line or use a straight edge to find the line too, and also the back of the heel were the back of the coffin bone is pointing, with those in mind it will help you determine on most horses where the coffin bone is sitting, once you learn this trick it helps allot.

My responses (in black) to Hoofnit BF (in green):

Take off all the chalky sole, but don’t cut into live sole

Which is exactly what I did. I never intentionally cut into live sole because the "live" sole is the sole that has the blood vessels! "live" sole is a term I feel that is consistently misused. the sole has 4 basic layers:

1) exfoliating (outermost) flakey, chalky, chunky driest layer that in the best of conditions will wear off as the horse moves, usually this tissues white in color;

2) Working sole (under exfoliating sole) this sole is flexible, dense and more moist than the exfoliating sole this sole is quite protective and not enervated.this tissue also usually is white in color but not chalky-you can see and feel a definitive moisture change in this portion of the sole. This layer will flex under the weight of the horse but Not to the farrier's thumb pressure.

3) Live Sole is inner layer or tissue that is being generated by the solar corium and is sensitive to pressure, concussion and bruising.This layer will easily give to farrier thumb pressure. this layer is usually more yellowish than white but can also be pink if cut too deeply.This layer will bleed if cut into.A good farrier will Not trim a hoof to this level.

4) Solar Corium, which is the generating tissue her the entire sole and is highly vascular and innervated - this area if invaded by deep cut or puncture spells big trouble forthe horse. This layer is Blood red and will only be seen during a dissection or in the case of severe founder.

look at the concavity or lack there of

Sole concavity can be very misleading when dealing with foundered hooves, especially older foundered hooves. Often the moisture and density level of the foundered sole doesn't subscribe to the normal parameters, our environment plays a huge role in this too. It is quite common for a foundered sole to appear convex or flat when in fact an X-ray may prove it to be quite concave - only that it has been built up and not exfoliating properly. It is quite common for the actual exfoliating sole to appear as working sole if the horse has been walking around on this non exfoliated sole for any length of time.

The exfoliating sole that has appeared to be working sole will obtain its true form once the hoof pressures have become more normal. This can take several farrier intervals.

more important look at the collateral grooves. If they are shallow you know there is very thin sole there

Collateral grooves are Not a proven way to judge sole position or thickness! Mainly because the collateral grooves are themselves very much influenced by the shape and condition of not just the sole, but the frog & wall (essentially the entire hoof). If the hoof has flattened the collateral grooves will have widened and become shallow. A distorted founded hoof that has been allowed to grow out over tine will often have this widened, flattered appearance from the ground surface, giving the impression that the sole is quite close to the ground, when in fact all that is being seen is remodeled exfoliating sole. So the sole is not shallow at all.

In a very narrow upright hoof the collateral grooves can be quite deep, yet often on these horses the sole is quite thin.

a receded coffin bone

Receded means withdrawn, taken back, so if a coffin bone position recedes from the solar surface this can be a good thing-sort of. As long as the sole remains attached to the bone's solar Corium this means that the hoof is regaining it's concavity! If the bone recedes and the sole is detached well, then that is Not good. I think the term you were looking for was not "receded" but rather prolapsed or descended.

look at the new hoof growth, up at the cornet band were the laminae is growing out tight,

I am fully aware or this" landmark" for P3 positioning in normal hooves, however while this landmark may indicate the laminar attachment at the proximal aspect of P3 it in no way tells me what is going on with the attachment at the distal and palmer aspect! often in a foundered horse if the lamellar attachment has been disrupted for an extended period of time the bone has not only deformed at the dorsal palmer aspect, it could be demineralized too - only x-rays will show us that. Drawing an imaginary "straight line" to the ground surface and then trimming to that line may get you into real trouble if P3 has been distorted too!

and also the back of the heel were the back of the coffin bone is pointing,

This statement makes the huge assumption that the heels of the hoof correspond directly to the position of the heel wings of P3, as well as the assumption that P3 is not deformed, or that it's ground surface is straight!


When dealing with normal hooves you can get by quite nicely using extend landmarks and generalized ideas of inner bone positions as long as you have a good grasp d hook anatomy. But when dealing with foundered hooves, especially long standing foundered hooves with severe distortions, external landmarks were often quite skewed so X-rays become imperative. Sans the x-rays a cautious approach works best.

Regards,
Kim

[calshoer]

Kim regarding the definition of "live" sole...for clariy of discussion, just about everyone (except you ) uses the term "live" sole to describe what you call "working" sole.
Why not just use the same terms as everyone else to avoid confusion. Geesh sometimes you seem to have your own special dictionary.... where did you get it, on Mars?
The layer of sole that has the blood supply and innervation is commonly termed "sensitive ,in almost everyones book except your 'special' one.
Patty

[Hoof "N" It BF]

Thank you for that little bit of education, i guess i should have spent a couple hours drawing everything out with you instead. But here is the thing, you have to look at (the big picture), put all of what i said in sink with each other, and no the collateral groves do not lie when doing it correct. If i were to be talking to some one that has never looked at the bottom of the hoof i could have went into much more detail, i would have then yes went into every aspect of the hoof in order for one to understand, And like i said on extremely bad cases of founder were extreme changes in the cornet band is taking place you can not rely on this, AND in NO way did i say you can trim back to this!!

Sole concavity can be very misleading when dealing with foundered hooves, especially older foundered hooves. Often the moisture and density level of the foundered sole doesn't subscribe to the normal parameters, our environment plays a huge role in this too. It is quite common for a foundered sole to appear convex or flat when in fact an X-ray may prove it to be quite concave - only that it has been built up and not exfoliating properly. It is quite common for the actual exfoliating sole to appear as working sole if the horse has been walking around on this non exfoliated sole for any length of time.

Remember what i said "collateral grooves not sole" on any horse foundered or not this is a good mapping guide, to get into more detail with out a picture to show you although i can make one up pretty quick if you still don’t understand, but i will try to explain, " open your mind up and visualize this" we all know the under side of the coffin bone is arched, " im sure i can come up with better words but im going to try plain English" ok with that in mind in a very healthy hoof with correct p3 position the sole should be arched (concave) as well but when you have a problem and the p3 has descended more into the hoof capsole your arch starts to flatten out. ( i know this isn't any new news here but im trying to back up so you get a clear understanding) Now although your sole has pretty much flattened out in a more severe case there is little to no depth in the grooves, when im saying no depth you measure from the groove up and a cross-section from the outer wall that would be level at the in your term (working sole plain) in. Now you might have adequate sole depth at the grooves were the crest of the concavity should be but moving out from there is were you are treading on thin water if it doesn't continue to flow out at an arch to the wall. So when your (Working sole) plains out your sole is thin, when it bulges out its really to thin and the horse has built a tuff little or big callus there to protect its hoof ( in a barefoot case) And with this sole that plains out you would call that a flat footed horse, and doesn't do very good on gravel or what not unless you reveres this, and we all know that. If you don’t under stand this i will attach a picture..

Collateral grooves are Not a proven way to judge sole position or thickness! Mainly because the collateral grooves are themselves very much influenced by the shape and condition of not just the sole, but the frog & wall (essentially the entire hoof). If the hoof has flattened the collateral grooves will have widened and become shallow. A distorted founded hoof that has been allowed to grow out over tine will often have this widened, flattered appearance from the ground surface, giving the impression that the sole is quite close to the ground, when in fact all that is being seen is remodeled exfoliating sole. So the sole is not shallow at all.

In a very narrow upright hoof the collateral grooves can be quite deep, yet often on these horses the sole is quite thin.

I think you will get it because you just said so your self ;) Ok so you can take the depth at the apex of the frog and at the back of the heel and can look at the angle your coffin bone is sitting from the side ( it takes a good eye with a since of good measurement) Just try it and then when you have a chance compare with an X-ray.. Really study both its amazing you will never convince me it doesn't work if you haven’t done it or seen it, I have and do it on a daily basic.. (It takes an open minded person to really appreciate and see this)

Receded means withdrawn, taken back, so if a coffin bone position recedes from the solar surface this can be a good thing-sort of. As long as the sole remains attached to the bone's solar Corium this means that the hoof is regaining it's concavity! If the bone recedes and the sole is detached well, then that is Not good. I think the term you were looking for was not "receded" but rather prolapsed or descended.
Ok i can explain :o i was tired but you are right i put the wrong word in but yes i did mean descended :rolleyes: oops!

"and also the back of the heel were the back of the coffin bone is pointing",

This statement makes the huge assumption that the heels of the hoof correspond directly to the position of the heel wings of P3, as well as the assumption that P3 is not deformed, or that it's ground surface is straight!

Yes i under stand this, but that’s like i said again with all of what i said put together.. I did i think do a lack of explaining witch would leave you thinking i was not putting all of theses factors in and a part of the time i was referring to your photo not all horses... But Take what i said as food for thought, I just wrote this so you had another view on things not saying your doing all you can to help this horse out witch you have and It looks like you did a very good job and i do think your break over is in a good spot.. and you have what you can work with and some times less is more and better to be safe than sorry.. Allot of things are a catch 22 and you only have what your training and bag of trick to offer at the time that’s just what you have, and its wonderful you posted for opinions..

[Hoof "N" It BF]

I forgot to ask in the last post, You didn't mention anything about the diet? have you asked what kind of a diet the horse is on? if so what is it consisting of?

[Forgewizard]

Patty posted:

:Kim regarding the definition of "live" sole...for clariy of discussion, just about everyone (except you ) uses the term "live" sole to describe what you call "working" sole.
Why not just use the same terms as everyone else to avoid confusion. Geesh sometimes you seem to have your own special dictionary.... where did you get it, on Mars?
The layer of sole that has the blood supply and innervation is commonly termed "sensitive ,in almost everyones book except your 'special' one.
Patty
Why not just use the same terms as everyone else to avoid confusion. Geesh sometimes you seem to have your own special dictionary

My Response:

I thought my definitions were quite clear and describe that there clearly is a difference between "live" and "sensitive" sole as currently so many people subscribe to.

" Live" means having life which means in this case blood and life perpetuating fluids. the working sole doesn't actually have blood vessels, but the solar corium does.

The term working sole is easy to envision and folks can separate it in their heads. Live and sensitive sole seem to be used interchangeably in not just many texts, but also in conversations and can be quite confusing.

So it is easy to understand that a "working" sole can have function and can "sense" pressures without being sensitive.

Going past the sensitive sole and into the living part (solar corium) lets people know exactly how close to the bone they have come and how serious an offense this is for the horse.

As far as this being "my own" dictionary, so be it. It is certainly very clear for people to understand. Regarding your amazement that I do not, but should, subscribe to what everyone else does-well, Sorry Patty, I don't see anything wrong with walking my own path.

Heck if I subscribed to what the majority of texts & tomes wrote already, I'd trim the hooves to be 45 degrees in front and 50 on the hinds!

Maybe a few more definitive definitions of hoof anatomy are necessary for folks to really understand the hoof!

At least I didn't label it something like a "moon-sickle"!

Regards,
Kim

[Forgewizard]

You didn't mention anything about the diet? have you asked what kind of a diet the horse is on? if so what is it consisting of?

Owner reported horse's diet was charged according to what vet prescribed. from what I saw at barn it at least consisted of coastal hay and coastal pasture.

Regards,
Kim