What I know

[Rick Burten]

Before posting the information contained below, I sought advise and counsel from someone I consider to be wise, impartial, and fair.

His insights are as follows: "I have no knowledge of EC stuff, but I do know one thing: Regardless of what actions are taken(or not taken), the longer the true facts are kept from view, the worse the situation will get in the public arena. Speculation breeds more speculation. Its a downward spiral.......the revelation of the information, and telling the true story, can only help stop the bleeding."

I also contacted Baron to tell him of my intentions. He admonished me to tell everyone who reads this and wants to respond, that no ad hominum remarks or speculation on the subject will be tolerated. The offending post(s) will be spiked.

What I know:

1. Dave Ferguson tape recorded a telephone conversation between Bryan Quinsey and himself.
2. Mr. Ferguson did not inform Mr. Quinsey that the conversation was being recorded and defacto, did not have Mr. Quinsey's permission to record the conversation.
3. The other four members of the Executive Committee were listening to the conversation, but did not know the conversation was being recorded.
4. Mr. Quinsey was not informed that any other parties would be listening to the conversation.
5. Mr. Quinsey did not find out until the next day that others had been privy to the conversation.
6. I have personal knowledge of the recording because on Saturday, 08April2006 at approximately 10:30pm Central time, Mr. Ferguson called me and played the recording for me.
7. Under Maryland law, recording a conversation between two parties requires the prior consent of both parties.
8. Mr. Ferguson was at his home in Maryland when he recorded the conversation. Under Maryland law, Mr. Ferguson has committed an illegal act.
9. Mr. Quinsey has retained legal counsel.
10. Mr. Quinsey's legal counsel has sent a letter to Mr. Ferguson demanding that he turn over the original recording and any copies; that Mr. Ferguson cease and desist any and all actions that might injure or besmirch Mr. Quinsey's good name and reputation, and that Mr. Furgeson issue a written apology to Mr. Quinsey. The recording(s) and the letter of apology are to be delivered to the offices of Mr. Quinsey's attorney no later than close of business on 19April2006.
11. I know these facts(#11) to be true as I have a copy of the letter sent by Mr. Quinsey's attorney to Mr. Ferguson.
12. The AFA Executive Committee, absent Mr. Ferguson, is closely scrutinizing the illegal action taken by Mr. Ferguson and is trying to determine a correct, legal, course of action.
13. It is my understanding that many, but not all of the AFA BOD representatives are aware of the situation at this juncture.
14. On 16April2006 I received a request from Mr. Tim Quinn, AFA BOD representative to the EC, for "a statement regarding your conversation(with Mr. Ferguson) and e-mails regarding the secret taping of Bryan Quinsey and the EC. We need the information as to how the issue came forward and what, in your opinion, made Mr. Ferguson believe he needed to play this tape to you. Please forward your response to the entire EC.
15. On 16April2006 at 12:15pm, Central time, I sent an e-mail, as requested, delineating the information requested. The copy of my response that was sent to Mr. Ferguson was returned to me as "unable to deliver because the user is over their quota." I do not know if Mr. Ferguson has received a copy of said e-mail through other channels.
16. I have hard copy doc*mentation for every fact I have stated above.

Because I believe that Mr. Ferguson has so compromised his ability to lead the AFA and to function as President of the AFA, I am , as both an AFA member and a representative to the AFA Board of Directors, hereby calling upon Mr. Ferguson to immediately, voluntarily resign his position as AFA president.

I take this action with a heavy heart but my fiduciary responsibility is to the welfare of the AFA and its members.

[Jaye Perry]

......Because I believe that Mr. Ferguson has so compromised his ability to lead the AFA and to function as President of the AFA, I am , as both an AFA member and a representative to the AFA Board of Directors, hereby calling upon Mr. Ferguson to immediately, voluntarily resign his position as AFA president.

I take this action with a heavy heart but my fiduciary responsibility is to the welfare of the AFA and its members.


As a memeber of the AFA I am in agreement with Mr. Burten.

[Red Amor]

Such a pitty al O this
sorry Rick
We dont have an association down here in Tassie, not enough members to cover insurances , buggar

[David Hayne]

Afa members.....I realize there are always two sides to every story but too invade someones privacy with out their consent is a very big no no.....I kinda wonder why the people who listened to the recorded tape or where aware did not speak up....and say " No " to Mr. Ferguson....

Mr. Burton, thankyou for bringing this to light...I will not stand for any invasion of backstabbing and you will have my vote........

I hope the AFA will look after Mr. Quinsey's legal bill in his attempt to delete this terrible invasion on his personnal life.....what next Voyeur DVD's ...

To those guilt...stand up an be counted....to the silent majority ...speak up...


David

[Phil Armitage]

Not to condone this type of action if it is true, recording a phone conversation is a big no no. It would not bother me personaly if someone recorded what I said, because I do not say what I do not mean and will take responsibility for my words and actions. I do not say things that I would not say to everyone else or write on this forum. Everything we say on this forum is a perminant written do***ent and availabe for everyone to view. So I am not sure shareing this information is prudent while legal action is underway and unresolved. Two wrongs do not make a right Rick. Probably would be best to wait and see the outcome and get all the facts before we ask for Daves resognation.

What a shame that AFA members airs so much dirty laundry for public viewing, how does that stop the bleeding. If you ask me it is becomeing a blood letting. As an AFA member I ask everyone to use common sense and wait until more information surfaces.

[Ronald E. Kramedjian]

Because I believe that Mr. Ferguson has so compromised his ability to lead the AFA and to function as President of the AFA, I am, as both an AFA member and a representative to the AFA Board of Directors, hereby calling upon Mr. Ferguson to immediately, voluntarily resign his position as AFA president.

I take this action with a heavy heart but my fiduciary responsibility is to the welfare of the AFA and its members.Rick,

I know how hard this issue has been on you and I thank you for your careful and diligent attention to this matter. I hope Mr. Ferguson fully understands the nature of this situation and will take this request to heart and do the honorable thing. There are no cir***stances or excuses that can mitigate the commission of a criminal act while functioning in his role as AFA President.

Sadly, as an AFA member I feel that I too must join you in your request.

[tbloomer]

Federal law on recording telephone conversations.

http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/recordcalls.html

State law

http://www.callcorder.com/phone-recording-law-america.htm

[Roy Amaral CJF]

Maryland statutes-
Md. Code Ann., Courts and Judicial Proceedings ? 10-402: It is a felony to intercept a wire, oral or electronic communication unless all parties to the communication have consented. But all-party consent will not make the recording legal if there is a criminal or tortious purpose behind it.

Disclosing the contents of intercepted communications with reason to know they were obtained unlawfully is a crime as well.

Violations of the law are felonies punishable by imprisonment for not more than five years and a fine of not more than $10,000. Civil liability for violations can include the greater of actual damages, $100 a day for each day of violation or $1,000, along with punitive damages, attorney fees and litigation costs. To recover civil damages, however, a plaintiff must prove that the defendant knew it was illegal to tape the communication without consent from all participants. Md. Code Ann., Courts and Judicial Proceedings ? 10-410.

It's not just that Mr. Ferguson is subject to criminal prosecution, there's the question his and the AFA's civil liability.

I spoke to Mr. Ferguson yesterday and he has no intention of turning over the recording or apolgising to Mr. Quincy. He seemed to think whatever information he obtained justified his actions.

I passed the copy of the letter from Bryan's lawyer That I obtained to a member of the BOD. He knew nothing about it as of last night.

I would expect the BOD will step up and take care of this matter.

If any other members of the EC had knowledge of what MR. Ferguson was doing they should also resign.

[Mike Ferrara]

Not to condone this type of action if it is true, recording a phone conversation is a big no no. It would not bother me personaly if someone recorded what I said, because I do not say what I do not mean and will take responsibility for my words and actions. I do not say things that I would not say to everyone else or write on this forum. Everything we say on this forum is a perminant written do***ent and availabe for everyone to view. So I am not sure shareing this information is prudent while legal action is underway and unresolved. Two wrongs do not make a right Rick. Probably would be best to wait and see the outcome and get all the facts before we ask for Daves resognation.

What a shame that AFA members airs so much dirty laundry for public viewing, how does that stop the bleeding. If you ask me it is becomeing a blood letting. As an AFA member I ask everyone to use common sense and wait until more information surfaces.


Wile the parties of a legal proceeding may be instructed my their attorneys not to discuss it, those who aren't party to it are usually under no such obligation. You might even hear the story on the evening news if they think enough folks would be interested.

[THamilton]

I believe that Rick is in the right here. It has affected him and directly involves him. What more as far as facts do we need? His reputation speaks for itself and need not be questioned. The same for his judgement.

I see no reason that the matter be kept behind closed doors until it is all solved. Unless the courts intervene in some way and state so.

Look what happened with the licensing issue!!! Decided behind closed doors. If repair to the damaged AFA's reputation is being sought, then why go this route?


Tony

[J.H. shoeing]

Reading all of this seems disheartening.

So I called Dave and ask one question. Would I, as a member of the AFA, hear the truth about what is going on in this situation.

He advised that I would.

So I am going to pay my dues, be productive in my state chapter, and give this situation/the leadership time to fix anything that has been scratched, dented, or broken.

Just like I would do with any of you guys/gals.



Rick
I understand how this must grieve you, as a long time member of the AFA. As this sounds like just cause for all of us to join your stance. I want to hear all of the information available now or in the future and make an informed decision based on my personal and moral beliefs. Thank you for presenting facts that make the rest of us ask questions.

[Jaye Perry]

Reading all of this seems disheartening.

...... I want to hear all of the information available now or in the future and make an informed decision based on my personal and moral beliefs. Thank you for presenting facts that make the rest of us ask questions.


It is dis-hearting to say the least. But there are rules within and outside organizations to ensure proper function of an established "formal entity". :(

AFA, Inc.
Bylaws:
Article XIV. Standards of Conduct

[Bill Adams]

This is where I like to come in with a smart ast quip but this realy saddnens me. Nothing wise from here tonite, I was looking foward to Dave's leading as he is a gifted teacher.
Rick,
Thanks for steping up. With attitudes like yours there may be a light at the end of the tunnel.
Bill

[Red Amor]

Yeah well said Bill
It broke my heart the day we shut the Tasmanian Farriers Association down

All of this must be hurting Ricks Feelings as well but like Bill said as lomg as there are staunch members like Rick that will sholder arms the A.F.A will remain one of the worlds leading bodies in the education of Traditional Farriers as well as many other of care providers
good on ya Rick;)

[Phil Armitage]

Don't get me wrong Rick I understand what your going through, however I think this should have been handled differently and not shared over a public forum. Personaly I think those who advised you to share this over this forum are not as wise as you think. I do not know which saddens me more, Dave recording a phone conversation or this being discussed over a public forum along with the full names of all partys involved. Where is the FCC regulation for this kind of privacy protection? Did Dave and Brian give there consent for this situation to be shared over a public forum? I think this situation would be better handled and resolved internaly by the leadership. This is not like the farnam deal or licenseing. Oh well the AFA soap opera BS continues.

[Roy Amaral CJF]

Phil,

Rick presented the facts and only the facts.

The AFA president committed a felony in his official duty as president and opened the association up to considerable civil liability. This is not in dispute.

The BOD and membership need to decide how to handle this. That can't be done without public knowledge of the facts.

Neither Rick nor anyone else who heard the tape are under any legal obligation to keep quiet about it.

Each time the tape is played by the person, who illegaly recorded it, for someone else- that act constitutes a new crime.

[Rick Burten]

Wednesday, 19April2006, 7:45AM, Central time.

I have just been informed that the other four members of the AFA Executive Committee have asked Mr. Ferguson to voluntarily resign as President of the AFA. Mr. Ferguson flatly refused to do so and said that he would not even consider the request.

The process to remove Mr. Ferguson as AFA President is and will continue.

Every member of the AFA who believes that Mr. Ferguson should, in the best interests of the AFA, resign, should personally contact Mr. Ferguson and express that sentiment. It is only when Mr. Ferguson comes to understand how untenable his situation is with the membership and the board of directors that he may realize that he can no longer continue in office or serve the best interests of the AFA

Mr. Ferguson can be reached at: DaveFerguson@AmericanFarriers.org

Should anyone be so inclined, I would appreciate a cc of the request.

[Cyber Farrier]

Wednesday, 19April2006, 7:45AM, Central time.

I have just been informed that the other four members of the AFA Executive Committee have asked Mr. Ferguson to voluntarily resign as President of the AFA. Mr. Ferguson flatly refused to do so and said that he would not even consider the request.

The process to remove Mr. Ferguson as AFA President is and will continue.

Every member of the AFA who believes that Mr. Ferguson should, in the best interests of the AFA, resign, should personally contact Mr. Ferguson and express that sentiment. It is only when Mr. Ferguson comes to understand how untenable his situation is with the membership and the board of directors that he may realize that he can no longer continue in office or serve the best interests of the AFA

Mr. Ferguson can be reached at: DaveFerguson@AmericanFarriers.org

Should anyone be so inclined, I would appreciate a cc of the request.
I want it clearly understood that I personally, nor the Farrier & Hoofcare Resource Center, take any position pro or con in this issue. My job is to provide a venue for the exchange of information, where all sides of every issue may be presented. The results of the airing and exchange of information is, as we all can see, at times unpredictable and unfortunately uncomfortable.

My position as Benevolent Dictator requires my neutrality, and that is the position in which I remain.

Carry on.

Baron

[Phil Armitage]

As an AFA member my posistion is to also remain neutral and I have no intention of asking Mr. Ferguson to resign. I have not heard both sides of the story. For the record, phone conversations are not private and probably recorded without our knowledge on a routine basis. My advice is be carefull when talking on the phone, a radio or the internet. If your being honest and have nothing to hide then no matter who records your conversation you should not have to worry. :)

[Gary_Miller]

Phil please read.

ARTICLE XIV. STANDARDS OF CONDUCT

The American Farrier's Association as represented by the Officers, Board of Directors, and members, has the responsibility of conducting itself in a businesslike and professional manner when dealing with colleagues, businesses, and other equine professionals. An obligation exists to set a standard of conduct befitting the professional farrier. The actions of the American Farrier's Association are expected to enhance the honor and dignity of the farrier profession, expand the base of professional knowledge of farriery and render service to the community.

What Dave did
1. Was not businesslike.
2. Was not a professional manner when dealing with colleagues.
3. Was not a professional manner when dealing with other equine professionals.
4. Was not a standard of conduct befitting the professional farrier.
5. Did not enhance the honor ond dignity of the farrier profession.


Gary

[Phil Armitage]

Gary none of this means anything until we all hear both sides of the story. Personaly I am not going to take Ricks or anyone elses word on this. For the record I am not calling Rick a liar, but I do not agree with how he is handleing this. In my opinion, Rick is doing more harm to the orginization by discussing this on a public forum. Discussing it among AFA members is one thing, but on and open forum for horse owners to also read is foolish. I am done discussing the issue and will just waite and see what happens. Very sad and disturbing situation all around.

[Gary_Miller]

Phil, you don't have to agree and you can wait if you want thats your choice.

As for me I have seen a copy of the letter sent to Dave by Byan's lawyers. Rick posted on this board what he knows, to include an email he sent to Dave. What I have seen and heard is very convincing to me, and was enough to convince me that Dave breached the AFA Standards of Conduct.

Thats all the facts I need to make my decission.


Gary

[Phil Armitage]

Gary you do not need to hear from Dave? So if someone accused you of something and made a pretty convinceing argument that you were in the wrong, I quess that is all l would need to decide your wrong. Especially if someone that I do not know on this forum like Rick says so. Yep makes sense to me. l suppose Rick, Jaye, Tom, Bryan and everyone else can accuse me of calling them all liars but hey, if the shoe were on the other foot they would probably call me a fair person.

[Gary_Miller]

Gary you do not need to hear from Dave? So if someone accused you of something and made a pretty convinceing argument that you were in the wrong, I quess that is all l would need to decide your wrong. Especially if someone that I do not know on this forum like Rick says so. Yep makes sense to me. l suppose Rick, Jaye, Tom, Bryan and everyone else can accuse me of calling them all liars but hey, if the shoe were on the other foot they would probably call me a fair person.
If I had done something like Dave is being accused of I would post my evedence and explane my reasoning for doing so. If I was being wrongly accused I would post my evedence and explane my defense. I would not remain silent. Which is what Dave has done on the subject of Bryan from the time he was first asked if he made the statement that he would get rid of Bryan if elected. It does not get any simpler than that.


Gary

[Phil Armitage]

Dave is not the only one remaining silent, have you checked the AFA web site lately. Nothing, natta, zero. I did hear from Brian and the original leak of information from Rick. That is it. I understand this is being watched by many, barefooters, horseowners other discussion forums. I do not condone breaking the law and invadeing someones privacy, but what we have now is another scandle that gives the AFA a big black eye. I think the best thing would have been to keep our mouths shut, and give the board a chance to handle the situation, too late to do that now. I try to state how I would handle it and a few bone heads come right back with BS comments defending there poorly thought out actions. Oh well, it will work out and it won't be the last issue I am sure.

[Gary_Miller]

Dave is not the only one remaining silent, have you checked the AFA web site lately. Nothing, natta, zero.The AFA web site neve has had much chatter on the board. And I don't expect the AFA to post anything about this until its all over. After all DAve still is president and has control of the web site at this moment. I did hear from Brian and the original leak of information from Rick. I hope you got set straight on the facts.
That is it. I understand this is being watched by many, barefooters, horseowners other discussion forums. I do not condone breaking the law and invadeing someones privacy, but what we have now is another scandle that gives the AFA a big black eye. I think the best thing would have been to keep our mouths shut, and give the board a chance to handle the situation, too late to do that now.All the more reason that the board acts properly and quickly while up holding the standards of conduct.
I try to state how I would handle it and a few bone heads come right back with BS comments defending there poorly thought out actions. Oh well, it will work out and it won't be the last issue I am sure. If it was left up to you. You would just ignore the whole thing in hopes that it just blew over and went away.

A true professional not only does the right thing when it easy they also do the right thing when it hard.

Again I refure you to the standards of conduct. I suggest you read them for content and meaning. Ingrain them in your head as they are good points to live by. Just like the Boy Scout Law, oath and motto. As well as the Military Code of Conduct.

Gary

[Gary Hill]

Wasn't it ole George Washington, as just a kid ,told his Dad that he did chop down the cherry tree? Fess UP , Confess, get it out in the open ,because I'm more worried about what happens behind closed doors than open ones? WHY isn't there more chatter on the AFA site? They are here ,because this is an open site, barefooters and seasoned Farriers go at it all the time, right here in the open, just some like to use false names? That's really OK, because over time both sides soften up a tad, both sides win! Best to all, Gary

[Phil Armitage]

If it was left up to you. You would just ignore the whole thing in hopes that it just blew over and went away.

A true professional not only does the right thing when it easy they also do the right thing when it hard.

Again I refure you to the standards of conduct. I suggest you read them for content and meaning. Ingrain them in your head as they are good points to live by. Just like the Boy Scout Law, oath and motto. As well as the Military Code of Conduct.

Gary

If I were on the board and tasked with resolveing this problem, I would appreciate it if others would allow me to do my job and stop haggleing over it like a bunch of old laddys. This would truely be the professional thing to do. I would expect others to trust the process. The exchange of information and a good debate is healthy, however we need to hear from the BOD and Dave, I trust the process. Sometimes the process can drag on and take time. I would not ignore the issue and hope it would just go away and I resent that remark. I also do not need a lecture from you about codes of conduct and how to live my life. I Another good read is the bible, take some lessons from Jesus. I retired from the military with an honorable discharge and held the highest security clearance. Was trusted with hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment as the primary equipment custodian, ran a shop and still remain friends with my buddies to this day who we trusted to watch our backs. Never burnt a bridge in my life. I really do not need a lesson on the code of conduct. Have I ever insinuated you lack ethical values? Just because I am asking for patience and hearing both sides of the story and let the BOD do there job you think I am being unethical?

[Rick Burten]

I would expect others to trust the process.
"In God we trust(well, some are into mysticism), all others pay cash.

Trust needs to be earned. Till such time, I'll keep my powder dry, my rifle cleaned and oiled and trust in my own ability to hunt, including my ability to hit what I aim at.

And, no one has yet 'tasked the board' with this job. Hell, some of the BOD still are out of the loop. Others have been brought into the loop because one of their chapter members saw these boards, called their chapter rep, and asked some pertinent questions.

[Ronald E. Kramedjian]

I would not ignore the issue and hope it would just go away and I resent that remark.Phil,

You have been asked a direct, straight forward and sincere question. I asked it on another thread, but it is a thread on this topic. So far you have in fact ignored it. I can only assume that you would like it to go away because you have no answer. So I am extrapolating your behavior in micro to your behavior in macro. You are free to resent me as much as you feel is appropriate, but don't make claims that are not supportable.

Never burnt a bridge in my life.Sorry, but my experience in life has taught me that for the most part if someone has never "burnt a bridge" or offended someone it is more likely that they have never taken a stand than it is that they are that diplomatic. So are you trying to convince us that you are really that diplomatic?

[Phil Armitage]

Hey guys I am not the one on trial here, I am just saying I am not ready to ask Dave to step down. When all the facts are verified and if Dave in fact broke the law then I agree he should step down.

Here is where I stand on the issue. Like a jurer at a trial, I have that shadow of a doubt and until the shadow of doubt is gone Dave is inoccent in my book. Maybe some of you guys have all the facts you need, I do not. Some say the facts have been put forth, I argue that the whole story is still unclear. What Brian and Rick have to say does not make it fact. These guys may be the most trusted and honest individuals on the planet, I have never met either one, like Rick said trust is earned, it is a two street. I am not suprised that Rick thinks he is the only one that thinks everyone has to earn his trust and that he can be trusted by all, a bit arrogant isnt it. Ron your arrogance is also showing.

1. Where is Dave's side of the story?
2. Where is the BOD's plan of action?
3. Is Brian telling the truth?
4. Is Rick telling the truth?
5. Why are some on this forum so eager to hang Dave?
Would these same people react the same way if it were a different president? I know some have said it would not matter who it was, but I do not buy it.

[THamilton]

So you are saying that he has to break the law and not the codes of the AFA in order to have done anything wrong that would warrant him being asked to step down or be removed from the office as President? :confused:

This does not make sense. You would rather have an unethical leader?

Tony

[THamilton]

I do not think that some are eager to hang Dave Ferguson per say. But there are people who are still carrying around the bruises that were caused with the pummeling of the licensing issue.

It is my belief that it could have been anyone that was President of the AFA, you, I, Bugs Bunny, anyone; and they would have been asked to resign if they had engaged in the same behaviors that have been alleged.

The situation might be different if Mr. Ferguson would have posted his side of the story. I am not saying that he should have done it here, but by any format. By him remaining quiet, the shadow of doubt still hangs over him, right or wrong. Apperarances are more than meets the eye.

I am not sure the BOD has a plan of action yet. Like someone mentinoed before, this is the first of its kind in these waters. Also like someone said earlier, not every Representitive knows about this issue. When it gets resolved, no one will know. BUt I believe that the BOD does not want to go out and do something that is not fair to all parties involved. That is why they are not talking at this point. IT is their right to do this and in everyone's best interests to do so. This way the wheels of justice can turn - Whereever they may lead us.

Tony

[Ronald E. Kramedjian]

Hey guys I am not the one on trial herePhil,

You are absolutely One Hundred Percent correct, and absolutely One Hundred Percent wrong.

While you are not being investigated or prosecuted for some individual wrong doing, you like each and every one of us are being tried by this issue. Our trial is about our ethics and our commitment to standing up as honorable, ethical men and women by demanding that our leaders be honest and ethical. We have to ask ourselves if we can afford to allow our leaders to believe that they can behave in such a way as to put our association at risk. This is not some social club where clicks can be left in place and divisiveness is accepted as normal, this is an association that is supposed to be representing and advancing the interests of professional farriers.

The AFA has repeatedly taken hits from accusations that its leadership is unethical and sneaks around behind closed doors and hidden procedures to keep from having to bear the responsibility for its actions. Sometimes there are no alternatives to taking time and sometimes taking time is an attempt to obfuscate the issues. I believe that this particular issue will tell us a lot about which it is as it plays out.

In many ways this issue is a test of the memberships will to clean up the AFA and insist upon ethical and transparent leadership. Each member, regardless of who he or she voted for has been given a choice. That choice is simple at its core. The choice is, do I want my leaders to conduct them self above reproach or am I willing to allow reproachful behavior to continue to poison my associations future. If we want our association to grow and prosper we will choose the former no matter how hard that choice is to implement. If we don’t care, then the latter will just happen.

We are each tasked with examining our own moral compasses and making a clear decision in this matter. Each of us must look in the mirror and ask ourselves are we persons of courage and honor or persons of cowardice and shame. Deep inside if each of us the truth resides and can not be hidden from and we will each have to live with knowing what our truths are. There is never shame in demanding integrity from ourselves and our leadership. There is always shame in hiding our eyes from the truth.

So Phil, given all of the above, instead of calling me arrogant, why don’t you answer my question based on the facts in evidence at this time?

[Phil Armitage]

So you are saying that he has to break the law and not the codes of the AFA in order to have done anything wrong that would warrant him being asked to step down or be removed from the office as President? :confused:

This does not make sense. You would rather have an unethical leader?

Tony

I do not know why Dave felt the need to record a phone conversation. What I have trouble with is the ethics of recording the phone conversation and how it applys to the AFA's code of conduct. From what I have read so far on this forum the justification for calling Dave quilty is Marylands law. If Dave had done this in another location where it is not illegal would everyone still accuse him of breaking the law and accuse him of breaking the AFA's code of conduct? Is it breaking a law that offends everyone or the fact he recorded a phone conversation? I am also confused and trying not to rush to judgement.

[Phil Armitage]

Ronald, I agree with you that the AFA should be a group that represents the trade honorbly. Honorable would be to cease all clicks, be more inclusive of newer research and information related to hoof care. Natural Balance and Barefoot trimming for starters. Horse owner are becomeing more and more knowledgable and realizeing the importance of proper trimming. A proper trim is the foundation, however the majority of the AFA continues to turn a blind eye to that fact. Building shoes and parimeter fitting is still the most important part of the AFA's goals. Craig Trinka not too long ago called out Patty Stiller and told her to put her money were her mouth is and challenged her to matching his shoeing to Natural Balance shoeing. Craig debated Gene recently on the issue of parimeter fit vs. Natural Balance shoeing. AFA farriers still look down on new information. I have seen farriers snub there noses to the uniform sole thickness trim and useing the sole plain as a reference even when it was discussed by a very reputable and successfull farrier who made a very clear point about trimming to the short axis and shoeing to the long axis. Horse owners are starting to learn that parimeter fitting and improper trimming is causing major costly issues with there horses feet and the AFA is the primary cause of it. I would like to see the AFA imbrace newer information and start to place more importance on proper trimming. I believe Dave knows this and is the guy that can break that barrier.

[Phil Armitage]

Phil,

So Phil, given all of the above, instead of calling me arrogant, why don’t you answer my question based on the facts in evidence at this time and demonstrate for us all what kind of man you are by your conduct?

What evidence? Rick's and Brian's word that is what you call evidence. Why should I take this as evidence? Please explain and show what kind of man you are.

[THamilton]

Taken from POST #20

ARTICLE XIV. STANDARDS OF CONDUCT

The American Farrier's Association as represented by the Officers, Board of Directors, and members, has the responsibility of conducting itself in a businesslike and professional manner when dealing with colleagues, businesses, and other equine professionals. An obligation exists to set a standard of conduct befitting the professional farrier. The actions of the American Farrier's Association are expected to enhance the honor and dignity of the farrier profession, expand the base of professional knowledge of farriery and render service to the community.

What Dave did
1. Was not businesslike.
2. Was not a professional manner when dealing with colleagues.
3. Was not a professional manner when dealing with other equine professionals.
4. Was not a standard of conduct befitting the professional farrier.
5. Did not enhance the honor ond dignity of the farrier profession.


I am concerned about the fact that Mr. Ferguson recorded the phone conversation for whatever purpose he deemed necessary. He acted in a way that is unbefitting of an individual in an elected capacity. It clearly shows that his conduct was/is not befitting that of the AFA in the capacity that he was elected. The issue of breaking the law is not as much of a concern to me. That is between him and the proper authorities and the others involved in the case.

Although Mr. Ferguson might be the man that will lead the AFA into the future and bridge the gaps that have become evident; his credibility has been damaged by his actions. Actions that are unbefitting of the President of that AFA.

Tony

[Cyber Farrier]

Ron and Phil,

Take the personal stuff outside.

Baron

[T.L. Buck]

WOW !!! Does the word tetosterone come to mind when you read this thread or what?. :rolleyes: I think ya'll need a big jumbo gumball and see who can blow the biggest bubble before it pops. Whether what he did is ethical or not, everyone is entitled to their own decision and opinion without their manhood coming into picture. Everyone has a clear and understanding point of view and shouldn't be chastised for their outlook. I sure don't think Phil is wrong for his opinion or decision anymore than the rest of you that wants Dave's resignation.

[Phil Armitage]

Ron and Phil,

Take the personal stuff outside.

Baron

No problem, I did not start it, however I will respectfully bow out of this discussion and wait to see what happens.

[Rick Burten]

What evidence? Rick's and Brian's word that is what you call evidence. Why should I take this as evidence? Please explain and show what kind of man you are.
Because, the truth is an absolute defense and evidentiary standard.

Further, in post # 36 you said:
I do not know why Dave felt the need to record a phone conversation.
With this statement you tacitly admit that you believe that Dave did indeed make the phone call in question and that he did indeed record it. So, now it comes down to your own personal standards for conduct becoming the person holding office, be it President, Vice President, Secretary or Treasurer, of the AFA.

Regardless of whether or not recording a conversation is legal in some other location, the fact remains that recording a conversation that both parties have not agreed to have recorded, is ILLEGAL in the state of Maryland.

Further, each time that recording is played for another person, the individual playing the recording, under Maryland law, commits another ILLEGAL act.
what I have trouble with is the ethics of recording the phone conversation and how it applys to the AFA's Code of Conduct.
Since the code of conduct(Article XIV of the AFA Bylaws) has been reproduced here on this thread, in its entirety, I am going to make the leap of faith that you have read it. Having read the Code, if you still cannot understand how initiating and completing an illegal act applies to the Code of Conduct, then I fear that there is no way to explain it to you. Even were the act to have been legal, it smacks of being unethical, having overtones of impropriety, being imperious and downright wrong. If you still cannot see how that applies to the Code of Conduct, then please do not be offended when I choose not to follow your leadership, guided by your moral compass, down even a well lit road, let alone one that is dark and dangerousl

And, I say yet again that this is about the deed(s) done, regardless of who the doer may be.

Name for me, one publically held corporation that would allow a leader(or any other officer), thus tainted, to remain in office and potentially, a member.
And, since the AFA is 'owned' by the membership, it does fall within the broad parameters of the term "publically held corporation.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Rick Burten in gray, deletia

Name for me, one publically held corporation that would allow a leader(or any other officer), thus tainted, to remain in office...

Enron! Lay and Skilling (CEO and CFO respectively, both under indictment for numerous felonies and out on bond) remained in office until they resigned. Alas, their Golden Parachute failed to deploy and they've been forced to repay some of millions they are alleged to have stolen.

C'est la vie.

[Ronald E. Kramedjian]

Rick's and Brian's word that is what you call evidence. Why should I take this as evidence? Please explain and show what kind of man you are.I already have.

[Rick Burten]

Name for me, one publically held corporation that would allow a leader(or any other officer), thus tainted, to remain in office...

Enron! Lay and Skilling (CEO and CFO respectively, both under indictment for numerous felonies and out on bond) remained in office until they resigned. Alas, their Golden Parachute failed to deploy and they've been forced to repay some of millions they are alleged to have stolen.

C'est la vie.

Score: TomS. 1, RickB. 0. :o

However, since I'm at bat, my information is that Skilling was the CEO who took over when Lay retired. the CFO, Fastow(who along with his wife, pled guilty last October) turned states evidence. Also, IIRC, Lay, was the founder, chairman and first CEO. Perhaps it is purely coincindental, but Lay's retirement came right when the poop was about to hit the fan. Skilling became the point man and the government played "Gotcha' "

Inferentially, would it not be safe to say that each one resigned/retired rather than wait for the corporation to remove them? In effect, is this not parallel/analogous to what we face now with the AFA?

Tom winds up, throws the pitch. Is it a curve ball? a sinker? A split finger fastball straight down the middle? A change-up? I hope its not 'high and outside'. I just can't lay off that pitch. :p

[THamilton]

Will he try to brush you off the plate???

[Gary_Miller]

If I were on the board and tasked with resolveing this problem, I would appreciate it if others would allow me to do my job and stop haggleing over it like a bunch of old laddys. This would truely be the professional thing to do. I would expect others to trust the process. The exchange of information and a good debate is healthy, however we need to hear from the BOD and Dave, I trust the process. Sometimes the process can drag on and take time.As members of the AFA we also have the right and responsability to let the BOD know how we feel about the subject and how we want them to act. Some BOD members are talking others are not and thats OK. If you want Dave side you have to call him as he won't post on here so all can get his side at the same time. I trust in the process, however I sure hope it don't drag on for long. Better to get it over one way or the other quickly and move on. Of course Dave could resign for the betterment of the organization then we could move on alot quicker.
I would not ignore the issue and hope it would just go away and You past posts have lead me to believe other wise.
I resent that remark. SO!!!!!
I also do not need a lecture from you about codes of conduct and how to live my life. I Another good read is the bible, take some lessons from Jesus. I was not lectureing you just pointing out that it was a ethical breach of the AFA Code. I use the other codes because I though you could relate to them.
I retired from the military with an honorable discharge and held the highest security clearance. Good glade to hear that. However, may I remind you that all you have to do is stay out of trouble and do your job in order to do these things.
Was trusted with hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment as the primary equipment custodian, ran a shop and still remain friends with my buddies to this day who we trusted to watch our backs. Good for you again.
Never burnt a bridge in my life.Hard to believe, but if you say so it must be.

For me I've burnt lots of bridges and am glad to say so.
I really do not need a lesson on the code of conduct. Oh, i'm not so sure about this. I think everone could use a lesson on the code of conduct once in a while. It keeps you honest.
Have I ever insinuated you lack ethical values?No! And I have never have insinuated you did ether.

However no ones prefict especally me.
Just because I am asking for patience and hearing both sides of the story and let the BOD do there job you think I am being unethical? Reread my posts I have never said any such thing.


Gary

[fairweatherforge]

Good glade to hear that. However, may I remind you that all you have to do is stay out of trouble and do your job in order to do these things.

Good for you again.

Gary- If you've been there done that, my apologies. Otherwise, maybe you could show a little bit of respect.

Oh, i'm not so sure about this. I think everone could use a lesson on the code of conduct once in a while. It keeps you honest.

Sounds to me Phil's had a lesson in code of conduct for quite a few years.

[Rick Burten]

Will he try to brush you off the plate???
HMMMM, I hadn't considered a brush back pitch. Since my reflexes have somewhat slowed, and I'm down in the inning, I'd probably take the hit and, as a 'hit batsman' , I would be awarded first base without having to swing(At my age, bio-energy conservation is a must :) ).

Because of that pesky personal energy conservation thing, what I wouldn't do is charge the mound(unless of course it accepted Visa or Master Card).

Soon, we'll be able to see if any of the other players will get to base on ***** or if they'll stand at the plate and get called out on strikes, or if perhaps they'll take a swing or two and get a hit and drive in a run.

Best scenario of all would be to get two more players on base so that the clean-up batter could hit a grand slam.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Rick Burten in gray

Score: TomS. 1, RickB. 0. :o

However, since I'm at bat, my information is that Skilling was the CEO who took over when Lay retired. the CFO

I plead the CRS defense. (Tom 1, Rick 1)

Fastow(who along with his wife, pled guilty last October) turned states evidence.

Make that CRAFT defense. (Tom 1, Rick 2)

Also, IIRC, Lay, was the founder, chairman and first CEO. Perhaps it is purely coincindental, but Lay's retirement came right when the poop was about to hit the fan. Skilling became the point man and the government played "Gotcha' "

I dunno if Lay was the orignal honcho or not, CRAFT is still invoked. (Tom 1, Rick 2)

Inferentially, would it not be safe to say that each one resigned/retired rather than wait for the corporation to remove them? In effect, is this not parallel/analogous to what we face now with the AFA?

I dunno if the organization's going belly up counts as removing their executives. I hope the AFA doesn't have to emulate Enron. (Tom 2, Rick 2)

Tom winds up, throws the pitch. Is it a curve ball? a sinker? A split finger fastball straight down the middle? A change-up? I hope its not 'high and outside'. I just can't lay off that pitch. :p

[The home plate umpire throws up his hands, singnaling time out, then beckons to the other umpires. The umps converge at the mound, look to the heavens, engage in a somewhat heated discussion, then call the game on account of moral turpitude.] :)

[Rick Burten]

then call the game on account of moral turpitude.] :)
ROTFLMAO!

Isn't that what they put on the soul(sic) to pull out soreness, kill pathogens and toughen it up?

No, wait! Thats Venice Turpentine. Venice Turpentine not moral turpitude. Venice Turpentine, you dummy.

[Gary_Miller]

Gary- If you've been there done that, my apologies. Otherwise, maybe you could show a little bit of respect.
If you would have checked my personal profile you could of saved yourself some embarrassment.

Been there done that have lots of T-shirts from several places.
Retired United States Air Force, 21 1/2 years active duty. I think that qualifies me to comment on what it takes the get an Honorable Discharge.

However, apology accepted.
Sounds to me Phil's had a lesson in code of conduct for quite a few years. Well lets just say that everyone could use a refresher course every so often.

I see you just had a birthday on April 18, thats a great day to have a birthday. Hope you had a good birthday


Gary

[Ronald E. Kramedjian]

Rick,

Just for the public record. Will you please answer the following in yes or no form if possible?

If this matter proceeds to litigation, either criminal or civil, will you provide testimony under penalty of perjury that you have heard a tape recording of a conversation between Mr. Ferguson and a person that he represented to you as Mr. Quincy and that that recording was played for you by Mr. Ferguson?

Will you further testify that Mr. Ferguson represented to you that the purpose of this phone call was to secure Mr. Quincy’s assurance that Mr. Quincy did not resign because of Mr. Ferguson and it was that portion of the tape that Mr. Ferguson played for you?

Will you also testify that Mr. Ferguson stated that Mr. Quincy did not know that the conversation was being recorded?

To be completely clear on this matter, will you under the penalty of perjury, a felony in every state as far as I am aware, swear the facts that you posted in post number one of this thread are the truth as you know it and that you have held no fact or other bit of material information back?

[Rick Burten]

Rick,

Just for the public record. Will you please answer the following in yes or no form if possible?
Yes
If this matter proceeds to litigation, either criminal or civil, will you provide testimony under penalty of perjury that you have heard a tape recording of a conversation between Mr. Ferguson and a person that he represented to you as Mr. Quincy and that that recording was played for you by Mr. Ferguson?
Yes
Will you further testify that Mr. Ferguson represented to you that the purpose of this phone call was to secure Mr. Quincy’s assurance that Mr. Quincy did not resign because of Mr. Ferguson and it was that portion of the tape that Mr. Ferguson played for you?
Yes
Will you also testify that Mr. Ferguson stated that Mr. Quincy did not know that the conversation was being recorded?
No. Dave only asked me not to tell anyone about the tape. Bryan Quinsey was the one who told me that he had not been told the conversation was being recorded.
To be completely clear on this matter, will you under the penalty of perjury, a felony in every state as far as I am aware, swear the facts that you posted in post number one of this thread are the truth as you know it and that you have held no fact or other bit of material information back?
Yes

[Ronald E. Kramedjian]

Rick,

Thank you for your answers. When the various attorneys review the facts as presented they are going to be relieved that at least one person is willing to stand up for the truth.

Since you have said it all, I don't any anything else to say.

[Phil Armitage]

Thought I would bring this to the surface again to refresh everyones memory. I even said on one reply that I am not calling Rick a liar, just did no like how he handled the situation by makeing it publice on an open forum. I still feel the same way. Boy some people are nasty, who needs enemys with friends like these?

I said that if it turned out that Dave did in fact record a phone conversation without the knowledge of the other party, I would ask for his resognation. Well I think he should resigne, mistake or not this is wrong. I also think anyone else in the AFA that has broken the code of conduct should step down. This is a non-profit orginization for the betterment of the trade, education and horse owners to find trusted and capable farriers. Lets see what happens.

[Rick Burten]

just did no like how he handled the situation by makeing it publice on an open forum.
Where else does one make something public?
I still feel the same way. Boy some people are nasty, who needs enemys with friends like these?
That's rhetorical, right? Or do you need an answer?
I said that if it turned out that Dave did in fact record a phone conversation without the knowledge of the other party, I would ask for his resognation. Well I think he should resigne, mistake or not this is wrong.
Why tell us? Have you called your BOD rep? Have you sent, in writing, a request to Mr. Ferguson that expresses your position? Have you contacted the other members of the EC to apprise them of your position?
I also think anyone else in the AFA that has broken the code of conduct should step down.
Without a trial? Without knowing all the facts? Whom are you accusing and of what are you accusing them? Can you substantiate your accusation(s)?
Or, do you expect these alleged miscreants to suddenly find 'religion' and come forth of their own volition , wringing their hands and crying out "I did it, I did it. Please forgive me"? Do you really think that anyone in such a leadership position has the courage and willingness to 'fall on their sword'?
This is a non-profit orginization for the betterment of the trade, education and horse owners to find trusted and capable farriers. Lets see what happens.
The structure and mission of the organization is of no consequence. Wrong is wrong. Though as we are yet again seeing, it is easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission. Admirable traits in a leader, don't you think?

[Phil Armitage]

Recieved an E-mail from Mike Nolan regarding my intentions to let my membership expire. I am going to call him this week. He says the EC has done a 180 and communicateing much better and feels there will be major progress.

My focus is farrier education and would like to see the AFA be more open to new ideas and methods. For example Natural Balance.

[Rick Burten]

Phil,

Just to be clear here. You said that Mr. Ferguson should resign because he has admitted to unethical and criminal behavior, right?

Now you are going to overlook those transgressions and by continuing your membership, tacitly give your approval to what he has done, right?

Do you feel that just because the EC is now communicating better, that is sufficient reason to allow Mr. Ferguson to remain as AFA president?

Do you feel that what Mr. Ferguson did was more or less reprehensible, inappropriate, ad naseum than what the gentleman did to the child in the theatre?

Do you intend to answer the questions I posed to you a few posts ago, or are you going to try to sweep that under the rug and hope it goes away and you get a p-a-ss on being accountable?

[Phil Armitage]

Phil,

Just to be clear here. You said that Mr. Ferguson should resign because he has admitted to unethical and criminal behavior, right?

Right. 22 years working for communications in the military, recording a phone conversation without the consent of the other party is totaly wrong. I do not trust anyone that would do that.

Now you are going to overlook those transgressions and by continuing your membership, tacitly give your approval to what he has done, right?

Wrong, my membership expires in Mar. I plan on talking to Mike Nolan about many things, one being Dave's resignation, actually I like Jayes idea of a clean sweep, however that might be over board. Mike requested that I wait to see how much progress is made by Mar. If Dave remains as president, then I will not renew my membership.

Do you feel that just because the EC is now communicating better, that is sufficient reason to allow Mr. Ferguson to remain as AFA president?

No.

Do you feel that what Mr. Ferguson did was more or less reprehensible, inappropriate, ad naseum than what the gentleman did to the child in the theatre?

Just as bad if not worse. Total invasion of privacy, totaly unethical.

Do you intend to answer the questions I posed to you a few posts ago, or are you going to try to sweep that under the rug and hope it goes away and you get a p-a-ss on being accountable?

I have to go back and find those questions, sorry I do not recall them.

[Phil Armitage]

Rick if you mean the remark that I made about anyone else stepping down if they broke the code of conduct. I have no proof of anything and at this point do not care. I have talked to so many people about the licensing issue and Dave's issue it is mind boggleing. I will say this, it is very sad to see all this happening to the AFA and it is about time the EC is communicateing better. I do not think they are communicateing as well as we do on this forum.

I need to add this, Mike's E-mail is a good sign. I will ask his permission to share it here.

[Phil Armitage]

Hey Rick, one more thing. I have said this before and I will say it again. Knowing what you knew at the time must have been a heavy burden. I am still unclear what your role was in this whole fiasco, but you did a good thing not letting this get swept under the rug. I do apologize for giveing you a hard time about it. I do not understand why the EC or BOD or whatever did not communicate better, trust the process (whatever process the AFA has established) and do something about this. Why does it take airing it publicly for an orginization with rules and processes to take action?

I feel the way it was handled has done the most harm to the AFA. However as Tom Bloomer said, how many members really know what is going on? I wonder the same thing.

[Rick Burten]

Knowing what you knew at the time must have been a heavy burden. Yes and no. Yes in that once I was exposed to Mr. Ferguson’s wrong doing I had a moral obligation to act in an ethical manner. I couldn’t just sweep it under the table. No in that I had and have no equivocation in my belief about what is right and wrong. The real question was how to deal with it.

I am still unclear what your role was in this whole fiasco, but you did a good thing not letting this get swept under the rug. I do apologize for giveing you a hard time about it. Mr. Ferguson made me a party to his actions in his attempt to stop the bleeding over Mr. Quinsy’s resignation. His whole purpose was to convince me to back off by playing me his recorded conversation. Once he did that he took all of my choices away. I had an obligation as a member of the BOD to address the matter and if I wanted to avoid the potential of being charged as an accessory to his crime I needed to speak up. There was no conspiracy or over riding hatred of Mr. Ferguson here, just simple a simple moral obligation to deal with what I see as a major breach.

I do not understand why the EC or BOD or whatever did not communicate better, trust the process (whatever process the AFA has established) and do something about this. Why does it take airing it publicly for an orginization with rules and processes to take action? Mr. Kramedjian and I have discussed this many times and he has theorized that because farriers in general are not confrontational it is simply not in their nature to grab the bull by the horns and deal with things that are truly unpleasant. He and I both feel that society in general has become so used to letting things slide because it is easier to do that than it is to face them, that farriers are doubly condemned to erring on the side of avoiding confrontation . Finally as he has pointed out many times when I have been most frustrated, many of the members of the BOD do not have a corporate professional background so they are not well versed or practiced in understanding their true fiduciary responsibilities as members of a corporate board.

I’ve thought about this a lot and I think his theories fit the facts that are presented fairly well. It was Mr. Kramedjian’s clear and unwavering view of how things get screwed up and how to cleanly fix them that drove me to nominate him for the Secretary position. I believe he has the experience, maturity and the moral fiber to be a positive influence on the future of the AFA. He may not have been shoeing as long as some, but he sure has the kind of corporate leadership experience that the AFA so desperately needs.

I feel the way it was handled has done the most harm to the AFA.So do I, but I did try to deal with this thru channels only to be met with silence and stone walling. Given the true seriousness of the actions in question I felt that not saying something would have been worse than saying something.

[tbloomer]

Yes and no. Yes in that once I was exposed to Mr. Ferguson’s wrong doing I had a moral obligation to act in an ethical manner. I couldn’t just sweep it under the table. No in that I had and have no equivocation in my belief about what is right and wrong. The real question was how to deal with it.

Mr. Ferguson made me a party to his actions in his attempt to stop the bleeding over Mr. Quinsy’s resignation. His whole purpose was to convince me to back off by playing me his recorded conversation. Once he did that he took all of my choices away. I had an obligation as a member of the BOD to address the matter and if I wanted to avoid the potential of being charged as an accessory to his crime I needed to speak up. There was no conspiracy or over riding hatred of Mr. Ferguson here, just simple a simple moral obligation to deal with what I see as a major breach.

Mr. Kramedjian and I have discussed this many times and he has theorized that because farriers in general are not confrontational it is simply not in their nature to grab the bull by the horns and deal with things that are truly unpleasant. He and I both feel that society in general has become so used to letting things slide because it is easier to do that than it is to face them, that farriers are doubly condemned to erring on the side of avoiding confrontation . Finally as he has pointed out many times when I have been most frustrated, many of the members of the BOD do not have a corporate professional background so they are not well versed or practiced in understanding their true fiduciary responsibilities as members of a corporate board.

I’ve thought about this a lot and I think his theories fit the facts that are presented fairly well. It was Mr. Kramedjian’s clear and unwavering view of how things get screwed up and how to cleanly fix them that drove me to nominate him for the Secretary position. I believe he has the experience, maturity and the moral fiber to be a positive influence on the future of the AFA. He may not have been shoeing as long as some, but he sure has the kind of corporate leadership experience that the AFA so desperately needs.

So do I, but I did try to deal with this thru channels only to be met with silence and stone walling. Given the true seriousness of the actions in question I felt that not saying something would have been worse than saying something.
Let's not forget that it was Mr. Kramedjian who started the "bleeding" over Bryan Quinsey's resignation by asserting on these boards that Quinsey resigned because, and ONLY because of Dave Ferguson.

Let's not forget that YOU, Mr. Burten, were the one who prompted me to call Mr. Quinsey and get his story about why he resigned. Therefore, you contributed to the bleeding.

Let's not forget that after I called Mr. Quinsey, I reported back to these boards that he had told me he resigned because of ferguson. Therefore, I contributed to the bleeding.

According to Mr. Kramedjian, in Dave Ferguson's zeal to get elected, he thought (early in his campaign) that it would be looked upon favorably by the membership if he vowed to replace Bryan Quinsey.

In conversations I had with Ferguson, he denied to me that he ever wanted to remove Quinsey. I was his assertion that it was the previous EC that was talking about removing him. Dave went into a lot of detail about all of the "problems" that the previous EC had with Quinsey.

Mr. Quinn told me that the previous EC wanted to get rid of Bryan, but that they would not make that information public due to the legal issues regarding privacy of personnel matters between employers and employees. He went further to tell me that the previous EC had plans to sabotage Ferguson's presidency. I concluded that they had enlisted Quinsey's help (thus giving him a way to take a parting shot at Ferguson. So now we have the pro-licensing gang (let's not forget how this all plays into the PLG's agenda "FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION pitting Ferguson and Quinsey against eachother and effectively killing two birds with one stone.

In conversations that I have had with Kramedjian, he admitted to me that he was concerned about some issues that the previous EC had with Mr. Quinsey and that he had looked into these issues himself and thought that they had been resolved.

During my investigation of all of this STUFF, get ready for this one 'cuz it's a doozy, every AFA "insider" that I have talked to has admitted to me (EVENTUALLY the truth comes out) that they thought that Bryan Quinsey should be replaced.

During my time as a member of the AFA and since then, ALL of my interactions with Bryan Quinsey have been friendly and positive. I use the terms "friendly and positive" in respect to the tone of the conversation between us. However, I do not believe that Mr. Quinsey was HONEST with me - who would blame him, he was looking out for his own interests. Therefore he wasn't about to tell me that his job had been on the line . . . that might cause me to dig into the issue just like Kramedjian did - and unlike Kramedjian, I do not consider myself legally bound by the AFA's code of secrecy. Also, unlike Kramedjian, I was not interested in seeing to it that Dave Ferguson dotted all of his "I"s and crossed all of his "T"s in his execution of office. I was hoping that Fergie would fix the AFA . . . Kramedjian was watching him like a hawk waiting for him to screw up so that he could get riteous with the rule book. Paybacks are a female dog.

Now y'all might think that I have a bone to pick with Kramedjian - that is not the case. Kramedjian has never lied to me or given me cause to think his motives are anything other than what they appear to be on the surface. The point where he and I diverge in out thinking has to do with how we feel as individuals about taking on projects. Kramedjian thinks that the AFA is a project worth taking on, I don't. However, should he manage to work some kind of project management miracle, I'll be happy to renew my membership. I'm just not willing to get dirty anymore with my "skills" unless it involves getting under a horse. :)

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

The Celtic artwork in this gate kinda reminds me of farrier associaton politics. :)
http://www.katyforge.com/Celtic_sunrise_gate01.jpg

[Rick Burten]

Nice gate!

[J.H. shoeing]

You ought to see the dragon he cut out this weekend while I was working out some hind shoe forging problems.

[tbloomer]

Tom,

You've got to post som pics of you doing the cuts - or is that an NC machine you're useing?

TB

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

tbloomer in gray

You've got to post som pics of you doing the cuts - or is that an NC machine you're useing?

I've got a few toys in the shop designed to keep me out from under horses in my dotage. I still do the artwork, but I'm not cutting much by hand these days. (Deep down inside, it kinda tickles me to be getting paid for drawing when I used to get my butt whipped for drawing in class - when I was a kid my portraiture of teachers tended towards caricature and my subjects were seldom impressed by my wit.)

Years back, the first thing I sold was a couple of team ropers turning a steer - I did the original artwork in soapstone on a piece of plate and cut it out by hand.

Someone with questionable taste liked the artwork and ordered another one - which meant I had to do the artwork all over again on a piece of plate before I could cut it out. About that time, I had an epiphany whereby I realized that doing the artwork over and over might be slowing down the commercial possiblities of my little enterprise.

So, I bought a used overhead projector, a box full of 3M transparancies for my little inkjet, and built a horizontal easel that'd hold an entire 4' x 8' sheet of A-36 plate. By scanning my artwork into a computer, printing a transparancy, projecting it on to the plate, then soapstoning the cut lines on to the plate, I could re-use the artwork and even combine components, size, and whatnot before cutting it out - and I still had my originals. Hot diggety! I felt like I'd been sold to a benevolent master.

Artwork -> scan to .jpg -> transparancy -> project on plate -> soapstone -> hand cut (slow, lots of cleanup)

Then, folks started ordering signs. I found out right quick that cutting out regular shapes - like letters - by hand is kinda like competing in an eagle eye contest without first looking at a foot - it's damn near impossible to get right. So, I bit the bullet and spent some of my worthless kids' inheritance an bought me a little CNC machine, another plasma cutter, and some expensive, kickass, raster to vector software.

Artwork -> .jpg -> .dxf -> G-code -> CNC cut (fast, little cleanup)

The commercial possibilities of my little enterprise have been greatly enhanced by the CNC setup because it enables me to produce quality work much faster than by hand. I have a small reputation for being a pretty fair fabricator and TIG welder, so the CNC setup has fit hand in glove into my setup and the business is growing. (Ever the control freak, when my powdercoater decided I was making too much money and raised his prices by 20%, I built a little 4' x 4' x 4' gas fired oven so I could do my own powdercoating. It works just fine.)

The bottom line is this: It's either make a success of the shop or shoe horses, so I'm working very hard to make a success of the shop. :)