Who is Teaching Who

[David Hayne]

The clients I work for have asked me many questions concerning should they go barefoot. It is thru this question from my clients that I started my own search for the answers on how or why the barefoot verses shoeing has become such a debate. If I am doing something incorrect by shoeing my clients horses, then I better read the books from these teachers of Barefootness.

As an American Farrier Association Member I strive to learn all I can to better serve the horses I work with. I have one big policy with my clients, if your horse has a problem ....call me. Horse Owners most rely on the knowledge of their farrier to look after their invested interest...their horse.

In my studies I have challeged the Written Certified Farrier Exam with the AFA, I advise all horse owners to take a look at this Certification Program set up by the AFA. In my studies with by books of references in hand the question was not so much from ( my point of view ) of what I have to know in order to pass this exam but as a farrier ...what I should know to maintain my level of skill an knowledge.

Reading the Barefoot only books I started to question the writings of the authors or barefoot instructors....if I want to learn something then I want these instructors to know something...about shoeing horses...if your going to belittle something then you should have experince in this field. I have an idea on the study involved by a " Certified Journyman Farrier " with the AFA...they worked hard to earn this title.

This should be the number one question from horseowners to anyone who is teaching barefoot trimming ..." if you want to say placing a horseshoe on a horse can cause many problems then how many horses have you shod that can bring you to this conclusion ". As a farrier I know that an improper fitted shoe can cause major problems as well as an improperly trimmed hoof.....I trim and shoe horses hooves everyday and I do not agree with the Barefoot teachers that one method ( barefoot ) fits all horses.

The first book I read was from Hiltrurd Strasseur....I wondered how many horses she has shod personnally ?.....I do not know this answer. I have studied her books and met a few of her instructors....the three teachers of her method have never put a nail in a hoof.....no experince in shoeing a horse ?

I read a Jamie Jackson book but do not know the years of farriery experince...I met one instructor ....never shod a horse ?

I just read a book by Pete Ramey and he states that in four years of shoeing he only shod ten pairs of hind feet......four years and why did he just shoe front feet....

Where did they study ( school, books ) who did they apprentice with....and for how many years...I question the expertise or experince of anyone who is picking up a hoof and start teaching trimming / shoeing. I am also questioning those who are writing the books.....

I wonder did Strausser, Jackson, Ramey....shoe many horses or for that matter challegend the Certification Programs of the AFA....I am not saying just because your farrier, did not write an exam or tested themselves among thier peers that they do not know what they are doing. I do question thou if teachers or anyone who are going to belittle the industry of farriery what gives them that right if they have no experince in shoeing.... I see the pictures in their books of poor farrier work with shod horses....I would love to see the pictures of their shoeing jobs before they got on the Barefoot Band wagon ...what where they doing wrong that sent them into another direction in hoof care. You as a horse owner should question their past years experince as a farrier just as you would a teacher who you send your children too.

If trimmed horses are coming up lame then something is not right..........and if the excuse being told to you the horseowner is that the lameness is caused by " Transistion Period ", there is the warning sign of marketing a style or method. As a 20 year farrier I am telling you not all horses can go Barefoot and remain sound......if you or someone trims or shoes a horse and they become sore/lame.....Something is being done Wrong.

Your horse needs you to make the right decision....make sure those teachers have the best interest of this in mind....and if you feel that you studied all there is to know about shoeing verses barefoot then you will do what is right for you...an if your incorrect your horse will let you know.....

As a farrier I research my instructors/teachers experince and knowledge and as a horse owner you have every right to ask that question.........barefoot them or shoe them but question whoever is teaching you that you can..." Do it Yourself "......it is you who has the final say in the hoof care program of your horse.....you are the owner who should question," Who is teaching Who ".



David

Just a closing thought....As a horseowner and farrier I have learned alot from more experinced farriers then I on this forum . I wonder why a number of the "Authors of the Barefoot books", do not respond... it appears it is only their students who are debating the arguements........something to think about......

[trailhorse]

Hi David! I am not a professional farrier, just a horse owner, but I hope you don't mind me joining in your thread. I don't have Jaime Jackson's book in front of me, but I believe I read he has about 25 years experience as a professional farrier (I'm sure if I'm wrong someone will correct me, lol!). I have only learned about the barefoot movement in the past couple of months and am experimenting with letting my 3 trail horses go barefoot. Actually, one has been barefoot for about 7 years. He was my first horse and simply doesn't get ridden hard anymore and has never been tender in rocks anyway, so I let him go barefoot years ago. The biggest plus I have had in reading Jackson's/Ramey's books is to learn proper barefoot trimming techniques. Before that I never realized the importance of removing all the flares or beveling the hoof (aka mustang roll) so I figure even if my other two riding horses don't stay barefoot, the one already succeeding in barefoot will benefit. I have had a bit of farrier science teachings and actually shod my own horses for about 10 years, so Jackson's/Ramey's books weren't starting me into my own hoof care, I had actually already been doing that. But I consider it furthering my education which is always a good thing. Like you, I came here to learn more about it. I still don't quite know why some farriers are so defensive about it. If it's all hogwash then they have nothing to fear. If it's the next big thing in horse care, then they are quite well set up the jump on the band wagon as people will always need someone to trim their horses feet. I just don't know why it has to be all or nothing. Quite likely it is somewhere in the middle. Some horses will probably do fantastic on it and others may never be able to handle going barefoot well. But I don't understand why folks aren't open minded. I'm sure when some of the natural horsemanship training methods started coming out there were lots of nay-sayers there too and now these methods are becoming widely accepted. So why not keep an open mind? Like the medical field, shouldn't farrier science always be progressing as knowledge is gained?

What I personally have taken from the Jackson/Ramey's books are this: A lot of horses we have been shoeing can do fine without shoes IF their owners are willing to put in the time, money, and patience of changing their horses living conditions to promote hoof health.

Also, wild (or feral if you prefer) horses have a lot to teach us about what a properly functioning hoof is like without human interference. It tells us what nature intended the hoof to be.

On another note, Pete Ramey has a whole stable of barefoot trail horses he is caring for in Georgia. If I lived closer I would love to visit and ride some of their horses. Really, a lot of what a barefoot horse can and cannot do could be answered just by visiting that stable and checking out the horses and trails. The proof is in the pudding as they say. I live in AZ so I don't know what Georgia trails are like, but out here they can be VERY rocky. I am committed to trying barefoot in that I will give the horses a few months, try to trim them in accordance with Jackson/Ramey's books, take care to avoid the rocks whenever I can, try to keep their pen's as dry and healthy as possible, etc. I realize it can take a year to grown a new hoof, however I expect to see the horses get better and better in the meantime as their hooves grow out an the sole hardens up. If they don't at least show improvement over the course of 3-4 months then I will go back to shoeing. But I have 3 leisurely trail horses, one of which is already doing well barefoot so I don't have the pressures of people who compete with their horses and need them at top performance level ASAP. I can afford to take my time and take it easy on the horses and see what happens. Of the two recently deshod, just in case anyone is curious, one is basically unrideable (hoping that will improve as the hooves grow) and one is sound on softer to semi-rocky footing but is tender on hard rocky footing such as gravel roads. Okay, I have written a novel, but I itching to talk to someone who is even remotely open minded. It seems like people are either "this is all bull and farriers know all," or "oh my gosh, how could you ever even think of putting a nail in a hoof?" Isn't there an open minded group who is really striving to learn? I think we are ignorant if we close our minds and don't consider the possiblity that feral horses can teach us about proper hoof form and function. That doesn't mean all our domestic horses have to go barefoot, but surely there are things out there we can learn and apply to shod horses that will keep them sounder longer. And if many of our domestic horses can be ridden barefoot than that is icing on the cake!
Kim

PS. I think many people feel the Strausser methods are invasive and generally shouldn't be lumped with the Jackson/Ramey methods.

[cowboy_bc]

But I don't understand why folks aren't open minded. I'm sure when some of the natural horsemanship training methods started coming out there were lots of nay-sayers there too and now these methods are becoming widely accepted.

So why not keep an open mind? Like the medical field, shouldn't farrier science always be progressing as knowledge is gained? Okay, I have written a novel, but I itching to talk to someone who is even remotely open minded. It seems like people are either "this is all bull and farriers know all," or "oh my gosh, how could you ever even think of putting a nail in a hoof?" Isn't there an open minded group who is really striving to learn? .

Hi all,

Some of us in cowboy land see this natural horsemanship as simply a money grab scam. Yes they are called farriers. Open minded? When is the last time you heard a farrier say all horses needed to be shod. What makes you think farrier science might not be progressing, a lot has happened in the last 30 years but we still arn't silly enough to call our selves equine podiatrists after some home schooling. Do you see the science of a simple trim evolving? Also contrary to what the BUA folks say a trim is a trim, duh.

Kevin

[David Hayne]

Hello,

With know laws in place in North America to protect your horse from inexperince hands ....anyone can trim or shoe horses, the same rule applies to the instructors/teachers ....anyone can confess to be one. My main point of my own ( personnal study) is the qualifications of any of these Instructors....are they experinced enough to teach.

I cannot stop anyone from working on their or other peoples horses, I am a farrier offering my professional services to people who want to hire me. If I am being asked to study these Barefoot only Methods I need to know who are these people who are writing the books.... what are their qualifications.

If any horse owner decides to take a barefoot clinic and teach themselves well good luck to them. The problem that I take offence to is when some of these people or groups belittle my farriery industry by saying that horseshoes are wrong on any horse. If someone is trying to convince me that barefoot is the only way to go then they are wasting my time because after 20 years of shoeing horses I have found this not to be the case. The horses that I have worked and maintained sound is proof to my business that the teachers / instructors and my mentors have taught me well.

When people try to compare wild horses to domestic horses I have a problem with this way of teaching. I can only do***ent my domestic horses that I see on a 6 to 8 week calender and over a 20 year program these domestic horses have taught me more then any wild horse.....The only wild horses I am familar with are the ponys on Sable Island about 100 miles of the coast of Nova Scoita. I am told that most of these...average 250 ponies live to about 12 years old and I am at a disadvantage comparing wild horse to domestic, because I never trimmed or shod a wild horse on a regular bases.

Horseowners can trim their own hooves or hire someone else to do it for them but it is my opinion that if this horse is coming up sore or lame then I suggest they go back to studing before they attempt to even as much as smell a hoof. To experiment on a horse and trim them to the point of soreness or lamenes is in my calulation ......Painful for the Horse.....and if I could compare humans to horses.....humans do not like Pain.

I love Nature...but when someone uses the word Natural horse keeping or Natural Barefoot that is exactly what it is .....a word. You cannot compare a wild pony herd on Sable Island to horse confined to stables or and being asked to work with humans....if horseowners do not agree with this then you and I cannot learn from each other for the benifiet of the horse. If an instructor is trying to tell me that Barefoot is the only way then I as a farrier cannot fully completely serve your horse from my teachings....not all horses can go barefoot......because of breeding programs, enviroment, work, etc.

I have met people who studied from authors of books advertising Barefoot Only. I hear statements such as , "you farriers most come out of the dark ages and learn from these people". I have typed in the word Natural Hoof Care and " Boom " there it is and you will notice that most sites in promoting their Barefoot only methods are belittling farriers in order to sell their book. If anyone thinks that Farrier Science is not progressing then simple go to a search on your computer and type in " Farrier Science ". To those who are telling horse owners that farriers are not studying then you are being mislead.

There are many ways to trim a hoof....any good farrier will perform a roll around the edge of a hoof wall to prevent it from breaking off....call it what you want...mustang roll or whatever but it takes years of education to become ( qualified in any profession ).

The feed back I get from the Barefoot Strausser Methods are not positive.... the people who have attempted this method have had some terrible results. In the beginning it was like someone had reinvented the wheel until Farriers questioned these methods and proved to most horse people that drawing blood on a hoof is not a good thing.....is Strausser trimming still being performed.

Farrier Science is exactly what it is and their are many dedicated people who are studing and researchig everyday to help improve our industry. We farriers can trim a hoof so the horse does not become lame, and we also can identify those hooves that need horseshoes or some other form of protection.

It is my job to maintain your horse in a sound manner and to have the knowledge to recognize something that may cause an unsoundness in my clients horse. The AFA the AAEP are two leaders in the hoof care world and this is where most of us farriers get our education to trim or shoe correctly.

I can teach anyone how to trim a hoof but it takes years to understand " Balance ". My main point goes back to these people who are misleading horseowners in their teachings that shoeing is wrong. Concentrate more on trimming a hoof to ," balance " then attacking a profession of Farriery Science.....if these people who are writing the Barefoot Trimming Books are as good as they claim then they should not be pointing a finger at anyone....in laying blame on someone else is like not be accountable for your own actions......I heard it said...your horse is lame because of transition period......Take a harder look...I would suggest someone screwed up.

It is my opinion that any horseowner who can stand back and watch their horse go ouchy and sore are leading their horse down a road of discomfort and evenully lameness. If your being taught to trim and your horse is coming up sore then your being taught Wrong and you need to question these people that you are paying your money too.

My clients asked the question to me and I studied from books of authors who do not hold any titles of Intern, Certified Farrier, Certified Journeyman Farrier with the AFA or other training from a farrier school. If I am to learn from someone, I need to know that they have studied this trade of Farriery Science in order for me to believe in their teachings. From the books I read about Barefoot Only, not one of these writers can convince me to convert over because I have proven to myself that not all horses can go barefoot. As a horseowner and farrier I will not stand back an let my horses go sore while I sit back an wait for a miracle.

As a farrier I study forever...I know the indebt study that is involved with the Written Portion of the Certification Farrier Exam of the AFA...I would feel more comfortable learning from someone who has proven to me that they put their money where their mouth is. Most horse owners would agree with me that this is a fare question , who are these people who are confessing to be educators in the Barefoot Movement Only....did they challege any portion of the Certification Exams with the American Farrier Association.

I encourage anyone to learn all they can about recognizing a well balanced trim. As a farrier I questioned my teachers and instructors on both sides of the fence...barefoot or shoes...it's my job as a farrier to know and I suggest to the horse owner who is preparing to study to do the same.

Makes no difference who is right or wrong but what is right for the soundness of your horse.

David

[Dave Purves]

I still don't quite know why some farriers are so defensive about it.

Because we deal with horses everyday, all day long, and some of them do not have the option of going barefoot. I don't fear for my job, I fear for the horses that will suffer because somebody wants to feel good about themselves and go the "Natural" route with hoofcare. Many horses can go barefoot, many horses cannot. There are more things that determine this than just, enough acreage and placing a few rocks in the pasture for them to "condition" on.


If it's the next big thing in horse care, then they are quite well set up the jump on the band wagon as people will always need someone to trim their horses feet.

I already trim alot of horses feet, sometimes when I'm done trimming however, I place shoes on them. I've never jumped on a band wagon fearing it would overfill and break down.

I just don't know why it has to be all or nothing.

With farriers it's not all or nothing, I'm happy to trim your horse and leave it barefoot, but if we don't get the desired results, I have many other options, in the form of shoes, pads, pour in pads, frog support, bar shoes, and countless other options.

The barefooters are the ones going all or nothing. Barefoot, or out of the club.

Quite likely it is somewhere in the middle.

Which is precisely what the farriers on these boards have been saying. Some can go barefoot, some can't, doesn't get much more in the middle than that does it?

Some horses will probably do fantastic on it and others may never be able to handle going barefoot well.

The exact sentiments of a good farrier.

But I don't understand why folks aren't open minded

Who's not being open minded? Every farrier I've ever met, takes care of a number of horses that are barefoot, yet I've never heard of a barefooter that has horses in it's care that shoes them. I've always thought that being open minded meant leaving yourself more options, not narrowing your view to one thing or another. So I believe it's the barefooters that aren't open minded. Like I said, I'm happy to leave a horse barefoot, but I can also add shoes pads and numerous other things to help the horse perform to the best of it's ability.

Dave

[huntseatndressage]

But I don't understand why folks aren't open minded. I'm sure when some of the natural horsemanship training methods started coming out there were lots of nay-sayers there too and now these methods are becoming widely accepted. Now stop and take a look around...those that are embracing the whole "Natural Horsemanship" marketing ploy tend to be the same type that jump on the BUA bandwagon. Funny thing is, a good horseperson was always known as a good horseperson, not a "Natural Horseman".

So why not keep an open mind? Like the medical field, shouldn't farrier science always be progressing as knowledge is gained?
I see and talk to many more farriers that have an open mind than I see on the BUA boards. The difference is that the farriers are saying "some do, some don't", the die hard barefooters are saying "all don't". Which side isn't open?

That's not to say all "barefooters" are bad...there are those out there that want to trim only and will recommend a farrier as/if needed. But generally a good farrier is versed in keeping a horse barefoot as well as putting shoes on.

It seems to me many of the farriers on here have at least looked at the "barefoot" methods, and taken the good parts (which they probably ALREADY knew), and debunked the bad. How many BUA experts have looked at the farrier theories and practices and debunked them with clear, logical, verifiable data and experience?

Sarah

[David Hayne]

Good day,

In 1987 I studied at a Farrier School and was introduced to the American Farrier Association. Since my Uncles and father where highly respected horseshoers in my community I learned quite a bit about shoeing a horse before I started studing Farrier Science.

Having already checked out the school and the instructor I felt comfortable knowing that my money was going to be well spent for my education. The text book was Dr Doug Butler's ...Principles of Horseshoeing 11 . My instructor Rocky Irons ( almost demanded ) that hooking up with a professional farrier would be one of the most important things I could do for my career and also to become a member of the American Farrier Association ...the main reason was for the continueing education.

Thru the AFA and it's members I was given names of people to talk to and books to read. Fully aware of the Certification Program that the AFA offers it's members whenever I read an articule written by a Certified Journeyman Farrier I zoom right in a read ever word.

With the Barefoot movement I simple wanted to know the authors of these teachings or methods....what experince do they have. To this point a few people have given me some back ground on who these people are and what they are teaching......

To maintain a sound horse revolves around recognizing a good trim on any hoof and trimmed to each horse's conformation. I point out to the horseowners who are being caught in the middle of to shoe or not to shoe ..it is your right to not only study how to recognize a balance trim but also how to recognize if the one you are studying from did indeed Study. To recognize a good instructor is to check out their training and experince.....know different then if you are going to call a Veternairian....are they a small animal vet or do they work on horses.

The American Farrier Association and the American Association of Equine Practictioners joined together to put a Vet/farrier short course program on for vets and farriers to learn from each other. In the clinic I was apart of the Doctors and CJF where people who have worked and studied to better educate those who participated......not once did anyone belittle me for my trimming method or in that matter shoeing method. We where there to educate ourselves in Farrier Science...

As a Farrier I question these Barefoot Only books and hopefully thru my question concerning ..are these people experinced enough to say shoeing is wrong ...then I know they are not speaking for the horses and owners who I work for. It's a free world , we can almost do anything we want but when hiring someone to work on your horses hooves....you have the right to ask who they studied from.

If you are planning on taking a Barefoot Only Clinic then more power to you...it's your money...just make sure you are spending it wisely. Not all humans speak the truth when it comes to making money.....but it's sad when your horse is caught in the middle of the lie....not all horses can go Barefoot.

If you are a Barefoot Trimmer ...I am an opened minded farrier searching for a name of someone that can teach me that Barefoot only is the way...someone who has the experince and knowledge ......in the Farriery Science World.

David

Info note...If your not familiar with the American Farrier Association ...check them out and also you may be interested in purchasing DVD's/ Videos from there past Annual Conventions.....I have a number of them and there simple excellent if your interested in Trimming and or Shoeing ..

[belhaven]

Actually to trailhorse-Pete no longer has/runs that trail stable (I don't recall if he owned it or just ran it).

He did at one time...but no longer does. Just in case you were planning that trip to see it. ;)

[trailhorse]

Actually to trailhorse-Pete no longer has/runs that trail stable (I don't recall if he owned it or just ran it).

He did at one time...but no longer does. Just in case you were planning that trip to see it.

I wonder if the horses are still maintained barefoot?

I don't have any AFA experience. As a matter of fact my only training was a farrier science class in college (half a semester on hoof function and half a semester shoeing dead legs) and then I rode around with the farrier instructor a bit. I also own Dr Doug Butler's Principles of Horseshoeing II and use it as a reference. I think I had an excellent start but then somehow my education stagnated. I remember someone in another post, the post where I put up pictures of one of my horses, someone had a comment like "you've been shoeing 10 years and still don't know about the heels." Well, that hurt but I was asking an honest question because when I took my class I got the impression that most horses don't grow enough heel and my instructor always cautioned us not to take off too much heel. So I sort of took that to the extreme I guess and had been leaving a good deal of heel as a matter of course on the horses I shod (which are my own, I have never sold myself as a farrier for other people). I can't do anything about the past, but if the barefoot thing has had a very positive effect for me because it awoken my desire to learn more about hoof care and realize my mistakes. I take full responsibility for my short comings and I want to learn- that is why I am here. :) Most people on this forum are very nice and helpful. It just seems there are a few folks who never have anything positive to say. But I have learned not to take it personal as I noticed that they are crabby to everyone that doesn't think the way they do.

On a very positive note, my Mustang is doing very well under saddle barefoot. I rode him today and felt very good about how he did. We even galloped a bit in the softer areas of the forest. And he seems to be growing plenty of hoof even though I ride him for a couple of hours every other day. I was worried at first that he might wear the feet down too quick but that doesn't seem to be happening.

Now my tenderfoot Paint I am not able to really ride at the moment. I am tempted to try Easyboot Epics but am worried about sizing. I can take measurements how they recommend on their website, but given that his feet are too short and I expect them to expand a bit, I don't know if I should get the size he currently should take or get the next size up. I don't know how much room room for growth there is in an easy boot. I know too big will not work either. I guess I could just put shoes on him but then I will never know if he will improve or not. This horse is 26 years old and did his best when a neighbor shod him with pads and a rolled toe shoe. Maybe there is just not going to be much improvement on a horse this old, but he is healthy other than being sensitive to rocks and hard surfaces. He actually has quite a bit of energy under saddle so I really would like to be able to ride him again sooner or later. I don't mind keeping him shod other than he is only ridden once or twice a week when I do ride him and it almost seems like a horse with his light work duty could go barefoot in his corral and get ridden either barefoot or with easy boots. What would you guys do with a horse in this situation? Keep him shod for a once or twice a week hour long trail ride? Give him more time barefoot to see if longer feet won't be as sensitive? Try the easy boots? I think one of the major mistakes I made was pulling his shoes only two weeks after I shod him. The back feet (which are always barefoot) are about 1/4 longer than the fronts.

PS. What does BUA stand for? Everyone uses it like we should all know what it means, but Google didn't give me the awnser. :rolleyes:

[Rick Burten]

Now my tenderfoot Paint I am not able to really ride at the moment.... This horse is 26 years old and did his best when a neighbor shod him with pads and a rolled toe shoe. ......I really would like to be able to ride him again sooner or later. ..... What would you guys do with a horse in this situation?
You already know the answer. Its right before your eyes. Now, go do the right thing.
PS. What does BUA stand for? Everyone uses it like we should all know what it means, but Google didn't give me the awnser. :rolleyes:
Barefoot Uber Alles. A term that discribes the mind set and practices of a segment of the population that believes no horse should ever be shod, no matter what. This diverse group has many factions, most of which can't even agree on what constitutes a proper barefoot trim but who all agree that a farrier cannot perform one, whatever "one" might be. The gurus de jour all have a fiefdom to protect and grow, for with growth comes financial gain. The BUA is well populated with Fluff Bunnies of every discription, and also with many who are afflicted with TSS(Terminal Stable ******ity). Few true horsemen and women are represented, but their absence is more than made up for by the lunatic fringe members.

While it is not required, an advanced degree in tomfoolery with a major in Junk Science and a minor in lemming behavior is helpful.

It is necessary to suspend your critical thinking capabilities and to check your common sense at the door.

It also helps to eat an extra bowl of ****** at breakfast, and to don your cloak of gullibility before you venture out of the Cloisters.

[kanderso]

[QUOTE=David Hayne]Good day,

>>>As a Farrier I question these Barefoot Only books and hopefully thru my question concerning ..are these people experinced enough to say shoeing is wrong ...then I know they are not speaking for the horses and owners who I work for.

Who knows, but the fact remains that barefoot works much better for a lot of horses than shoeing does. Whether that's because the shoeing hasn't been done correctly, or not, as long as barefoot works better that's what the owner will do.

>>>>If you are planning on taking a Barefoot Only Clinic then more power to you...it's your money...just make sure you are spending it wisely. Not all humans speak the truth when it comes to making money.....but it's sad when your horse is caught in the middle of the lie....not all horses can go Barefoot.

I believe that's true, but there's also the problem that if an owner can't find a competent farrier, sometimes their best option is to go barefoot.

>If you are a Barefoot Trimmer ...I am an opened minded farrier searching for a name of someone that can teach me that Barefoot only is the way...someone who has the experince and knowledge ......in the Farriery Science World.

I don't think anyone with any credibility at all is interested in saying that barefoot is the only way, any more than anyone is interested in saying that shod is the only way. If someone is that closed minded than who would want to learn from them, anyway?

I keep part of my herd shod, and part barefoot, depending upon what I use them for. I have to admit though, for what I do, barefoot may (note I said "may") work out quite well for the ones who I now keep shod.

OTOH, for a variety of reasons, barefoot may end up not working well at all for the ones I now keep shod. Time will tell.

Kris

[Welsh lass]

Just wondering how KC La Pierre fits into all this because he is a certified journeyman farrier. He was a shoer for over 25 years. He made a very lucrative business out of putting shoes on horses. He still recommends shoes where necessary. How does he fit in with all this since he is obviously a very strong proponent of shoeless also. Can't really say he knows nothing about shoeing! I have spoken to a couple of excellent farriers in the UK who have come to the same conclusion as him, independently of him. They feel there is something wrong with the way they are being taught. I think personally, it is the farriers who are getting to the point where they know that to right most feet, you need to take the shoes off and give the horse time to recover. They then discover that most horses then don't need to go back into shoes if the conditioning is right. If they do, there are plenty out there that can put shoes on.

[Rick Burten]

Just wondering how KC La Pierre fits into all this because he is a certified journeyman farrier.
If he no longer personally applies shoes, then he is no longer a farrier. And, I believe that he is a Registered Journeyman Farrier rather tha a CJF.

[Welsh lass]

Registered Journeyman Farrier rather tha a CJF.

You'll have to enlighten me on the difference please.

The thing is though, he was a farrier and everyone likes to quote barefooters as knowing nothing about shoeing and the "damage" shoes can do. How does he fit into this sterotype?

[cowboy_bc]

Just wondering how KC La Pierre fits into all this because he is a certified journeyman farrier. He was a shoer for over 25 years. He made a very lucrative business out of putting shoes on horses. He still recommends shoes where necessary. How does he fit in with all this since he is obviously a very strong proponent of shoeless also. Can't really say he knows nothing about shoeing! I have spoken to a couple of excellent farriers in the UK who have come to the same conclusion as him, independently of him. They feel there is something wrong with the way they are being taught. I think personally, it is the farriers who are getting to the point where they know that to right most feet, you need to take the shoes off and give the horse time to recover. They then discover that most horses then don't need to go back into shoes if the conditioning is right. If they do, there are plenty out there that can put shoes on.

Maybe a better description might be, a strong proponant of easy money taken from the foolish and gullible.

[Welsh lass]

Can I ask you to read the last article (number 12) on KCs website please and then tell me what you think:

http://www.equinepodiatry.net/articles.htm

I know KC very well, and this is how he feels.

[kanderso]

Maybe a better description might be, a strong proponant of easy money taken from the foolish and gullible.

Hey, it's easier than shoeing!

Kris

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Welsh lass in gray.

Can I ask you to read the last article (number 12) on KCs website please and then tell me what you think:

http://www.equinepodiatry.net/articles.htm

I know KC very well, and this is how he feels

Phineas would've been so proud!

[Lab_Brat]

Hi I'm new here!

I have been reading the board for a couple of days now trying to get the feel of the board. I have a question, what is your definition of a farrier? (this is not a trick question and I will not bash anyone for their opinion)

[Dave Purves]

Hi I'm new here!

I have been reading the board for a couple of days now trying to get the feel of the board. I have a question, what is your definition of a farrier? (this is not a trick question and I will not bash anyone for their opinion)


Perhaps it would be better if you gave us your definition of a farrier first, and we'll expound from there.

Dave

[Lab_Brat]

My current definition of a farrier is one who professionally cares for the feet of horses. The actual definition of a farrier is one who applies shoes to the foot of a horse. IMO a farrier can offer more than that because they are expected to know anatomy and physiology, they go through rigorous training and apprenticeships to do more than just slap a shoe on. A vet will even refer an owner to a farrier for medical treatments of the hoof, so a farrier must have a broader definition than the one given in a dictionary.

[HoustonFarrier]

La Brat.....or should we call you "Raffles Mom" ???

I recognize the image you are using....Cruzhoof12.jpg ???? ( I have one HELL of a photographic memory!)

You KNOW exactly what the "feel is for this board".

[Lab_Brat]

I am not here to cause problems. I just want to learn, don't assume you know anything about me and I have no idea what the feel is of the board is. I am here out of curiosity and I am willing to give this board a fair shot, you should be able to give me a fair shot.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Lab_Brat in gray

I am not here to cause problems. I just want to learn, don't assume you know anything about me and I have no idea what the feel is of the board. I am here out of curiosity and I am willing to give this board a fair shot, you should be able to give me a fair shot.

On the off chance that you're not a troll, a "farrier" is someone who trims and shoes horses. In common usage, the term is usually applied to folks who have at least a rudimentary knowlege of forgework, as opposed to the term "horseshoer" which is all inclusive and can be applied to anyone who trims and shoes horses.

Etymologically, the term "farrier" is derived from the Latin, "ferrum" (iron).

[Lab_Brat]

I read this really cool article on the term farrier and thats what it said. No one has ever called me a troll before :P. I would like to pursue a career in hoof care, to better serve my customers it makes sense for me to have a well rounded education. (So what did you think of my barefoot horse's feet since you brought it up HF ?)

[HoustonFarrier]

Then why did you not introduce yourself as who you REALLY are, instead of making up a new name, and saying how you are "new" here. I'm SURE you have been here before and read this forum(not posted here, but read)....and you have read what others who have been here have said. You KNOW this forum isn't too particularly welcome to barefoot only trimmers...of which you are a self-proclaimed proponent. Nothing wrong with that, but, stand up and admit it.

Why didn't you introduce yourself like this....."Hi, I post regurlarly on the Lyons Forum as "Raffles_Mom". I prefer to keep my horse barefoot, but I would like to learn more about the pro's and con's of shoeing"

You see, your credibility comes into play now..and credibility matters allot here.

If you are TRULY seeking to "learn".....how EXACTLY does the definition of a farrier help your horse...or YOU for that matter???? It would seem to me that if learning is truly your goal, then you would have asked a more technical in nature question, rather than a hypothetical "flame fest" type question.

I read as many forums as I can. I weed through the *****s, and the fanatics, and try to get the REAL people, and read what they say. I don't have to post to learn....I can read and learn allot as well. I post here, because these are my "brothers (and sisters)" in farriery. Being a draft horse specialist, I am able to bring valuable information and experiences to these discussions, and in doing so , help others. I've even gotten a few clients from here too, which helps put food on the table.

My real name and website are always in my profile. I have found that only those people who have something to hide remain anonymous. I have always found that being honest...to yourself as well as to others, is always the best route to go.

If you REALLY want to learn, then I would encourage you to keep an OPEN mind, and, most importantly, read for COMPREHENSION. Keep a dictionary/thesaurus handy for Tom Stovalls answers ;)

If you are here to pick fights or argue the merits of barefoot only trimming...well....happy hunting.

Steve

PS ... for the record, right now I have 13 horses on my property, and 7 of the 13 are barefoot. My 4 horses who work the roads on a regular basis are shod. My 2 year old and 4 year old show mares are in show plates, getting ready for the show season.

[HoustonFarrier]

By the way...your horses feet look GREAT!

Steve

[David Hayne]

Kanderso...... the purpose of my question is to find out if any off the Barefoot Only , instructors/teachers where ever farriers at one time in their life. Shoeing and Trimming hooves for over 20 years I lean more in the favor of my own work and studies then to be converted over to one method/style fits all.

Questions from my clients concerning the trimming methods , gave me the idea just to see who these people are... who is teaching who. I studied a few authors of books but in my business I know that not all horses can go barefoot....and after I read the books ....I'm still shoeing.

I know people who shoe their own horses and do a good job but have never taken a farrier course.....I know people who trim their own hooves and never taken a farrier course......it's their horse and they are looking after them and the odd time I am called in to give assistance.....

Then their are the Barefoot Only people who do not believe in Farriers...I just wanted to know what teachings could persaude people to believe this...

We all seen the bad work done by horseshoers and barefoot trimmers.....I just wanted to confirm to my clinets that I am looking at this and to better understand who wrote the books , I wanted this forum to educate me and us.

Who are these people that are selling the barefoot only books , where they can say a horse is sore from the transition period, how anyone can allow a horse to walk around sore just blows my mind...

It is my hope that wheather you shoe a horse or trim the hoof that we all do our homework....concerning the educators.

meanwhile I have two horses in the barn barefoot and two that are shod during their work months....and not one is sore....I give credit to the AFA and Dr. Doug Butler for their direction and teachings...

meanwhile I have 3 friends who barefoot trim but they will refer a client to me if they feel the need.....and they are belittled by the " Only " group.....go fiqure ?

Once again...make sure you know what experince these instructors have wheather your trimming and or shoeing..........your the owner

happy hoofing,

David

[Lab_Brat]

Thank you for your answer David!

HF-you obviously have had a hard time with some of the folks from the JL Board and I am sorry they treated you badly. I was not hiding my identity as I had posted my own horse's hoof as my avatar. I did not want what you have done which is to make assumptions about me and thats why i changed my name here. I asked that question because someone on here made a comment about someone not being a farrier and I wanted to hear what they believe is the definition of a farrier, not to cause problems but to understand where everyone is basing their opinions. I did say from the get go that I had been reading here for the last couple of days which is totally true, I have never been here before a few days ago. I don't expect you to believe me because it is obvious you are very suspicous of anyone who comes on here who has maybe disagreed with you in the past. I assure you that I am not here to cause problems and that my goal is to learn. I have very little technical knowledge at this point and for me to ask that kind of question at this point would do me no good. I will not pretend to be smarter than I am and I will ask any question I choose no matter how **** you may think it is.

I have no desire to argue barefoot vs. shod but I do have a right to argue my side. I don't believe shoes are evil but I do believe in making sure that a hoof must be absolutly healthy before you go putting on shoes and you do shorten the usability of a horse to do otherwise. The discomfort a horse feels after having shoes removed can be avoided if the horse is shod right in the first place.

We put shoes on our horse to help protect the feet and if you pull the shoes and a horse is lame then we must find out why and not put another shoe on until the cause is found. It really doesn't make sense to me that before a horse gets its first set of shoes the horse does just fine and then over time our horses can no longer go without them.

My own personal experiences with my mustang mare tells me that something is wrong. She was genetically given great feet (otherwise she wouldn't have survived) but now after 14 years of shoeing by a very good farrier she needs to have shoes. That tells me a different story about what is going on than what I have been told for years.

I did not start out barefoot because I thought shoes were bad. I was 18 when I bought my gelding in the pictures and he was shod when I bought him. I could not afford shoes but I could afford to go without shoes so thats what I did. I felt guilty for not having him shod but I was doing the best I could for him. I still rode him on trails and made sure that I got him regular trims. Now after all this time I can finally feel less guilty because I have done enough research for myself to feel like I did the right thing. I have always tried to educate myself about healthy horse care and done my best to do whats right. I am willing to admit when I am wrong about something and I have been wrong about many things so I am here to make sure that I do the right thing for myself and the horses that I might one day care for.

I don't always agree with the people on the JL Board but if you give me a good arguement with facts to back it up then I am willing to listen. I am very willing to listen to what anyone has to say but don't expect me to buy it hook line and sinker, I will make you work for what you believe in :). That means you may have to answer the tough questions.

[Mike Ferrara]

I have no desire to argue barefoot vs. shod but I do have a right to argue my side. I don't believe shoes are evil but I do believe in making sure that a hoof must be absolutly healthy before you go putting on shoes and you do shorten the usability of a horse to do otherwise. The discomfort a horse feels after having shoes removed can be avoided if the horse is shod right in the first place.

I disagree since one of the main reasons we apply shoes is to support a hoof/leg that is NOT completely healthy. It makes no sense to say that a foot should be completely healthy before applying a shoe.

We put shoes on our horse to help protect the feet and if you pull the shoes and a horse is lame then we must find out why and not put another shoe on until the cause is found. It really doesn't make sense to me that before a horse gets its first set of shoes the horse does just fine and then over time our horses can no longer go without them.

Who says that a horse does just fine before getting it's first pair of shoes? Shoes provide protection. Sometimes that protection is needed for a specific activity. Participating in that activity without the protection of the shoe may result in lameness. The cause is pretty easy to find. On the other hand if that activity is avoided, the protection/traction/support of the shoe may no longer be required.

My own personal experiences with my mustang mare tells me that something is wrong. She was genetically given great feet (otherwise she wouldn't have survived) but now after 14 years of shoeing by a very good farrier she needs to have shoes. That tells me a different story about what is going on than what I have been told for years.

You're sure that the only changes that accured in 14 years are due to the shoeing? Are you sure that age might not have something to do with it? On one hand you claim that the shoeing had an adverse effect and on the other that that the shoeing was done by a very good farrier. Does that really make sense?


I did not start out barefoot because I thought shoes were bad. I was 18 when I bought my gelding in the pictures and he was shod when I bought him. I could not afford shoes but I could afford to go without shoes so thats what I did. I felt guilty for not having him shod but I was doing the best I could for him. I still rode him on trails and made sure that I got him regular trims. Now after all this time I can finally feel less guilty because I have done enough research for myself to feel like I did the right thing. I have always tried to educate myself about healthy horse care and done my best to do whats right. I am willing to admit when I am wrong about something and I have been wrong about many things so I am here to make sure that I do the right thing for myself and the horses that I might one day care for.

I don't always agree with the people on the JL Board but if you give me a good arguement with facts to back it up then I am willing to listen. I am very willing to listen to what anyone has to say but don't expect me to buy it hook line and sinker, I will make you work for what you believe in :). That means you may have to answer the tough questions.

No one here has to work for anything. I, for one, am not trying to sell you anything and, in the end, I don't give a rats fanny what you do with or to your horse. We share information and trade ideas...you believe what you want. By providing protection, support and traction shoes have been used to maximize the utility of horses for hundreds or even thousands of years because in many cases it works better (bang for the buck) than the alternatives ... period.

[David Hayne]

If you put 20 farriers in a room they will come up with 20 different answers...but would be similar in reply.

The same rule I assume could be said for Trimmers.

I found myself in a situation with 5 barefoot only trimmers....they where very firm in their belief that the shoes I put on horses everyday was causing the horses harm.

I reached out to the Trimmers who had the books and we discussed the pros and cons of both methods...to shoe or not to shoe. Their books did not give me the answers.....althought similar in explaining the function ...etc of a hoof.

I watched as several of the horses walked away sore after the Barefoot trim...I spoke with other farriers who where seeing the same thing in their area.....

If I trimmed a horse and it came up sore or lame....I want my clients to call me....and I will not and do not blame the lameness on anything ....however I will look for the cause of the problem.....

If a horseshoer does a bad job....I simple tell the owner that this is the way that I have been taught....if the horse moves better then everyone is happy...if the horse has an unsoundness or lameness issue then thru my years of study I have knowledge, resourses and other farriers who I can turn too for help.

When someone reads a book and they can teach someone how to trim a hoof in two or three days and that owner feels that they know it all...then we have a problem or should I say the horse has a problem.

If someone who is taught that after these short clinics that the horse is sore because of the shoes that where taken off ......then that is why I speak out.....an question these instructors....

If I take shoes off and the horse is sore then what did I do or what did the owner do with the horse that caused the problem...

The teachings of the Only Books shows pictures mainly of poor horseshoeing...why.....to sell their book, to get everyone to point a finger at all farriers....

As a farrier I believe in my own experince of trimming and shoeing....even thou the Only Books will disagree with me.....but I always stood alone anyway.

Once again message directed to the horseowner who is lead to believe that horse shoes is not the answer.....I am sure if you have been reading this forum then you will realize that trimming a hoof is a very complicated thing to perform.....it takes years of study, and just when I think I know it all....a horse comes along and teaches me something new.

Homework...if a hoof is not balanced correctly....what happens to the joints ...The meaning of the word Balance is in the Dictionary along with Farrier....

have a great day,

David

[HoustonFarrier]

HF-you obviously have had a hard time with some of the folks from the JL Board and I am sorry they treated you badly.

Absolutly 100% INCORRECT. I have NEVER posted on the JL board, no one there has ever treated me badly. I am smart enough to know that I should not go where I am not welcomed. I saw what they did to Phil, and I generally learn from other people mistakes !!!

I have only read, at times, with incredulity, the postings. Try as I may to understand, I just don't "get it". No one has yet been able to answer me as to WHY, I can do my regular, normal, everyday, takes me 15 minutes, "Steve trim" (my new marketing name for when I trim a horse), and my horses walk off sound, and they are never sore, never need boots, never need bute...but yet, when this magical, mystical, special" barefoot" trim is done, horse often times (NOT ALWAYS, but often) needs "time to adjust"...."need boots to ride"....."need bute after a hard ride".....why??? No one has YET to be able to explain that.

I am open-minded enough to read other people's experiences, but EXPERIENCED enough...and SMART enough to know the reality of life is....some horses need shoes while doing a particular job, and other horses don't need shoes for their particular lifestyle.

Steve

[kanderso]

[QUOTE=David Hayne]Kanderso...... the purpose of my question is to find out if any off the Barefoot Only , instructors/teachers where ever farriers at one time in their life.

Yes, some of them were, and they tend to be the ones who are doing a good portion of the teaching.

Another point I'd like to make is that one does not need to know how to shoe a horse to be able to trim it correctly, so trying to argue that those who are teaching barefoot trimming don't know how to shoe, IMO is an empty argument.

>>> Shoeing and Trimming hooves for over 20 years I lean more in the favor of my own work and studies then to be converted over to one method/style fits all.

And I think that's perfectly natural and fine. If you don't think one style fits all then one would assume that you'd choose the style you prefer when you prefer it.

And as it turns out that's exactly what those who prefer barefoot do too, and whining about it (and I don't mean you, personally) isn't going to change it.

>Questions from my clients concerning the trimming methods , gave me the idea just to see who these people are... who is teaching who. I studied a few authors of books but in my business I know that not all horses can go barefoot....and after I read the books ....I'm still shoeing.

I'm taking it a step further and actually giving the method (barefoot) a try on the ones I currently have shod. Personally, I don't think it's going to work for a couple of mine for a variety of reasons, but some of the new information on barefoot maintenance is interesting, so I thought I'd give it another try.

>I know people who shoe their own horses and do a good job but have never taken a farrier course.....

That would be me. I've been to some of the seminars at Tufts, but mostly I learned how to shoe by watching, listening, and practicing.

>Then their are the Barefoot Only people who do not believe in Farriers...I just wanted to know what teachings could persaude people to believe this...

Well I can only speak for myself, but I suspect that those who are finding that barefoot is going to work for them are listening to their horses. And I too, have to admit that some of my horses' hooves look, and function, just as well barefoot as they do shod. But then, some don't, because one thing shoes (with borium calks) can give me that boots or barefoot can't, is exceptionally good traction on ice.

>>Who are these people that are selling the barefoot only books , where they can say a horse is sore from the transition period, how anyone can allow a horse to walk around sore just blows my mind...

Now that there's such a variety of user friendly boots on the market, and now that owners are willing to give their horses a transition period on soft ground, more and more are having much better luck with the transition from shod to barefoot. Part of that success is in knowing what to expect, and what to do about it.

>meanwhile I have 3 friends who barefoot trim but they will refer a client to me if they feel the need.....and they are belittled by the " Only " group.....go fiqure ?

The belittling is taking place on both sides.

Kris

[Welsh lass]

"JL Board"

??????

[David Hayne]

To Be or Not to Be.......A..

Over the last couple of months I have been doing some studing on Farrier Schooling and Barefoot Schooling.....Just for my own personnal knowledge...

I have in my collection several excellent books on the Farriery side of my studies written by knowledgeable people who are recognized by their profiles....example ...Dr. Doug Butler....easy to find info about this gentleman and what he has studied and written to aid us farriers.....website

Not completely schooled in the Barefoot books....but do have 3 names and some of their experinces....DVM Strausser...website

Since their are know laws to control who can trim or shoe a horse in North America.....anyone can do it.....anyone can teach it..

To this point of my study I have found that... Farriers can belittle Farriers, Barefooters can belittle Barefooters. Farriers can belittle Barefooters and Barefootes can belittle Farriers....Horse owners can belittle us all ...and the horses are somewhere in there.....it's a free world.

I hope we are not all belittled......anyway I seemed to have gotten some kind of an answer ....hope this makes us all look at our " trades" with respect, our horses deserve it.

watch your back,
some are heavy
and they all will kick


David

[Hoof "N" It BF]

I’m not sure if this will answer any questions or clarify anything.....
Strausser method is to be avoided especially by horse owners that don’t have the knowledge or the (controlled facility she has) to do it.. It has given barefoot trimming a bad name, when some one refers to bare foot trimming most think oh know blood lameness down time blah blah blah and i do have to agree, Since strausser jump started the barefoot trend in a way there has been so many advances in the natural hoof care world. Now on that note i do support Jamie and Pete 100% and if anyone has the chance to meat them, (I have personally met Pete and soon Jamie) Ask them what they think, you will get no bashing out of them. Pete him self said he loved to shoe and still would be shoeing if he didn't know now what he knows. And when you go to his clinic as allot of farriers vets and horse owners do, right off the bat he will say "allot of you are thinking this is going to be a shoes verses barefoot Farrier bashing clinic, its not". he never once had anything bad to say about Farriers nor did he really have anything to say about shoes. It was all about learning and informing. And Im sure the same goes for Jamie as Pete is a good friend of Jamies.
Now on the barefoot & shoeing note- anytime a horse walks of sore or lame something is obviously wrong, we all know that, horses don’t lie (people do) When a barefoot horse walks of sore after pulling a shoe, don’t let anyone tell you they wont be tender across hard and rocky terrain, for heaven sakes pull your shoes off and walk with the horse, they haven’t had the time to callus up and this is only one factor, and no don’t stop there and give up. A professional hoof care provider will refuse to pull shoes off a horse unless you buy a pare of hoof boots on site. There is no way of getting around the tenderness because the horse does not have adequate sole and most likely has little to no Dense fibrocartilage built up in there Digital cushion, which does not protect the very sensitive nerves back there. That’s where boots come in, its not a barefoot defeat in any way shape or form but should be looked at as a big help in transition, and if we don’t have the means to condition our horses for the terrain we want to go on for ridding. The boots give good sole protection and with pad and frog pads you can build the dense fibrocartilage in the frog and digital cushion in order for you horse to have a better transition from shoes to barefoot and the sole has a chance to build up and be able to hold up to rocks without damaging the hoof. No one wants to see a sore horse..
As far as shoeing goes There will always be a demand for it, you cant rein in boots, you need sliding plates unless they come up with a sliding boot, I’m sure that will look interesting and even then when in a big $$ competition i would be very hesitant to change from what you trust. There are people in the show rings with regulations that require shoes, show jumping with corks for traction and so on, they do make boots with screw in corks but until they are proven to work and not fail, there could mean the difference in a win or loose situation. There are many reasons that shoes are needed, for that they will be around a long long time.
My horses go barefoot and I rehabilitate horses barefoot, unfortunately if you ask me to nail a shoe i would be lost as far as that goes and i wouldn't feel competent on doing so until i go to a Farrier school and so on, and i hand it to the farriers that do it very well, and bad ferriers that give you a bad rap like a bad barefoot trimmer gives another that fully understands and works hard and has experience a bad rap.

Now i like coming to this web site and reading allot of these post and what works and what doesn't trial and error shoes and no shoes and so on its allot of information and fun, and even though i would never nail a shoe (because i don’t know how) i do need and want all the education on shoes i can especially when working with a horse that has had shoes on before knowing what worked and what hasn't and so on.

anyways this was suppose to be a short and to the point post :rolleyes:

I'm not sure if this clarified anything but it made me feel better :o lol

[matryoshka]

I haven't read this entire thread, because the argument between barefooters and farriers has gotten tiresome. I trim, not shoe (learned the basics, don't want to), and I recommend a farrier when one of my client's horses needs shoes. I just met an excellent farrier who gave me some good pointers on a barn of horses I trim, and even offered to let me ride around with him and observe his shoeing and trimming. Super nice guy, super skills.

I recently went to a clicker-training clinic and met another trimmer. She started to expound on how evil shoes are, and I had to cut her off. She's been trimming about as long as I have (a year) and was already convinced she's an expert. I guess my opinion was plain on my face, because she didn't talk to me the rest of the day.

Not all trimmers are "barefoot or bust." I've also met some wonderful, talented farriers who are very willing to help me learn more, answer questions, and have even offered to allow me to ride around with them. I find most farriers to be open minded.

My $0.02

[David Hayne]

Matryoshka,

As you are aware from my question I only wanted to know the history and experince of the people who are teaching the barefoot trimming.....as you are aware by now that anyone can trim or shoe a horse and from what I found out to this point anyone can instruct or teach trimming / shoeing.

I have learned so much from the barefoot trimmers who I spoke to ....or should I say who will speak to me with an open mind and I see you know that feeling when you question the people who say horse shoes are evil.

When a client ask me to look into a new product or trim/shoe style .....I do and give them my honest answer from my experince....and if I want to be educated I like you ask questions. Who is teaching Who.

I have been shoeing horses for over 20 years and try to maintain my level of education an as apart of this education we most educate the horse owner. Most horse owners are under the impression that there is some legal control over who can trim or shoe a horse and also who can teach it.....if thru this question a few horse owners are aware of this then they too will question who they hire to trim or shoe.

As a horse owner I have every right to question the training and or teachings of someone I want to hire to work on my horse. As a farrier it is up to me to question these books I read and who is writing them because I most provide my client with the best professional service I can offer.

Matryoshka, you will find by reading this forum that we are blessed with many talented people who have taught me so much, you will learn what I have learned about hooves and people....anyone can trim or shoe but it's all in the " balance " of what is right for the horse and what is being asked of them.

Speaking for the horse ....my advice to the owners....if your horse comes up sore or lame after a " trimming or shoeing ".....call a veterinarian.

have a great day,

David

[matryoshka]

Having so much to learn plays a large role in my not wanting to shoe. I agree with you that unless a person has been shoeing and can see how that has been detrimental to a horse over years, he shouldn't make any such claim.

I don't know how long KC La Pierre has been shoeing, but he does present some information on how shoeing harms a horse over years--fdon't know if it is from observing his own work. Personally, I don't have the experience to judge whether his assertions are correct or justified. You would be much more qualified than I to gage his credibililty. I have his book to see what his trim has to offer, not to evaluate his ideas of whether shoes are harmful in the long run. I just pass over that part and look at the trims.

I'm still working on getting the balance right for each horse. The horses I trim have responded well to my efforts, and I've had most of my clients for 6 months to a year now, so I can see how they respond to my work over time. But each new horse has his own balance issues, and it is a matter of figuring out how to apply the theories to that particular horse. I simply don't have the confidence or depth of knowledge to want to nail a shoe onto those feet. I like to see how it responds over one or two trim cycles to know whether I'm doing what that horse needs. If I have questions, I've got a farrier friend who comes with me to consult.

It is not fair to say shoes are evil based on the bad shoeing jobs out there. In any profession you've got the cream, the good, the mediocre, and the poor. It is easy to find poor work. The good and excellent work goes almost unnoticed because who (besides farriers) takes a close look at the feet of sound horses who are working and moving well? But most can tell a really poor job when they see it.

The barefooter I mentioned in the above post started going into the evils of shoes with me, thinking that I was like-minded. I told her about a draft mare I saw during farrier class who was bow legged and wore the lateral sides of her front hooves down to nubs during her barefoot stint. She was visibly relieved when her feet were trimmed and shod. This didn't convince the lady. She thinks the mare should have worn boots or something to protect her feet. I told her the mare is in a string of for-hire trail horses, that one can't expect the barn help to boot a horse properly for each ride, and that hoof boots offer no protection while in the pasture. Most aren't for use during turnout. She walked away. She didn't want to hear anything that conflicted with her theories. I didn't even bother to mention my own two flat-footed horses who have to be booted for trail riding and would need shoes for showing. What's the point of talking to an audience who doesn't want to listen?

I did enjoy your original post, because I hadn't thought about people seeing the harm of shoeing from their own work. I know that when I can't make or keep a horse sound barefoot, the barefooters all say there is something wrong with the trim, not that the horse needs shoes. Perhaps there IS something wrong with the trim, but perhaps the horse needs shoes. If I can't solve the problem, I call a farrier with lots of experience who can apply a shoe if that is what the horse needs. Works for me and my clients pretty well.

I have in the past spent a lot of time reading these boards. The depth of knowlege here is tremendous. I stopped reading, though, when there were so many arguments about barefoot vs. shoes and we trimmers got lumped all together. Now I come here to find information on specific topics and dodge the rest. I don't subscribe to any barefoot sites, either. Nowadays I can rely on the farriers I know for help when I need it. None of them mind that I don't shoe.

[David Hayne]

Hello again.....it's great when people are on the same wave length.

Your writings remind me of 3 barefoot trimmers who I communicate with in a positive way, we learn a great deal more by helping each other out.

I do not fall into argueing with barefoot verses shoeing, waste off time. In fact a client told me that some off my writings have been taken from this forum and added to some barefoot only site....I guess they need to do that for whatever senseless reason....I wonder why they do not reply to this site.

I have a wonderful clientle of horses that I work on....50% of them are shod. I always like to see good hoof trimming and shoeing but if people decide that their horses will go with out shoes then basically that is their choose.

I listen to the top notch writers on this forum and read the books I have on authors who I believe in ....these are the people who have taught me how to trim and or shoe without causing harm to the horse......( we have little control over the owners ).

This is not an arguement rather my self seeking knowledge on the experince the people have who decide to teach shoeing or trimming. Since I have been doing my own case studies over the 20 years of shoeing....I cannot learn from someone who wants to tell me that shoes are not good for a hoof.

Horseowners will decide for themselves but I just wanted to remind everyone who is looking into barefoot only to look behind the curtain.....you have instructors who have years of study and practise and you have the other people out their who on a weekend became a professional.

Me......I'm still studing and for someone to belittle a farrier then in my opinion their lacking knowledge in hoof care......if their work does not speak for itself then why do they want to find a flaw with my profession.

Trim away and keep rubbing shoulders with the farriers you meet....where all in this together.....doing what is right for the horse.

Just when I think I know it all, a horse comes along and teaches me something new.

have a great day,


David