Hoof pictures for critique.

[rafterp2003]

I wanted to post some pictures of my TB mare. Her left front is pretty run under. I've been trying to trim her down to the widest part of the frog, in order to get her heels growing in a more upright position. Today was shoeing number four. In the photo, I think you can see how far the bulb of her foot is from the back of the shoe. She's wearing a number one shoe. She has a heel first landing. I don't have a good shoer around here to shoe her, or critique my shoeing, so I thought I'd try to post some on here. The camera and the photographer (me) aren't the best. Hope you can see well enough to critique balance and finish. Thanks in advance for any help. Here is the foot when I pulled the shoe off.http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/runaway_bay/SUNP0015.jpg http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/runaway_bay/SUNP0014.jpg

[rafterp2003]

I posted too many pictures to start with, so here are some more.http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/runaway_bay/SUNP0012.jpg

This one is from the side before shoeing.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/runaway_bay/SUNP0016.jpg

[rafterp2003]

Here is the trimmed foot.http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/runaway_bay/SUNP0021.jpg
Here is the shod foot.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/runaway_bay/SUNP0023.jpg

[rafterp2003]

Gentlemen I am sorry those pictures came out so big. I'm sure there's a way to make them smaller, but at least you can see them :)

[tbloomer]

Looks pretty good to me.


FWIW My suggestions:
1. You might take just a smidge more heel - note red lines indication heel trim line.
2. Sculpt outer wall of hoof to bring widest part back to "the bridge" - red line acress center of hoof.
3. Fit breakover of shoe (grind or roll the toe) across the red line at the toe.
4. Fit heels full as indicated with yellow lines. Box the heels (grind a good bevel on them to keep her from stepping off the shoe) but with the breakover at the indicated line, she should turn over long before stepping on that shoe.

http://users.snip.net/~bloomer/SUNP0021.jpg

[rafterp2003]

Tom...thanks for replying, I appreciate any critique. I just had a question about the red line on the heel. I understand your comment to mean I could lower the heel a bit more, but I don't understand how the red line indicates that? Can you clarify when you get time?
Also, I didn't mean to discriminate when I wrote "gentlemen" in the above post...there are certainly some ladies on here who have good input as well. My apologies ladies.

[Gary Hill]

The yellow lines actually show where the heels could go down to. The line across the middle of the foot looks like it could be about a dimes width more forward where the widest part of the foot is. A rim shoe or an eventer would work well on this foot, considering your a Cutter. JMO, Best, Gary

[Phil Armitage]

Hi RP

For starters you did a nice job balanceing the foot and there appears to be enough foot to work with. Did a nice job cleaning up the frog, cleaned up nice but you did not over do it.

I agree with Tom, one way you can determine how far you can go in the heels is clean out all the flakey sole in the seat of corn and trim to the live sole. Do not trim or rasp into the live sole. The breakover line that Tom drew on you picture is correct, however you trimmed the toe too short and invaded the live sole plain. Locate the live sole plain and toe calouse and only trim and rasp to the live sole plain maybe even leave the hoof wall slightly above the sole in the toe. Then locate the breakover point and set the toe of the shoe to that, when you dress the front of the hoof, only remove what is dishing and flareing but leave the wall thickness there, this will keep the foot stronger. Bevel from underneath to the shoe. The live sole plaine is the solid waxy sole after you remove the chalky flakey material. I think if you do this you will find the foot will become more solid. It is difficult to explain in words.

[tbloomer]

Tom...thanks for replying, I appreciate any critique. I just had a question about the red line on the heel. I understand your comment to mean I could lower the heel a bit more, but I don't understand how the red line indicates that? Can you clarify when you get time?
Also, I didn't mean to discriminate when I wrote "gentlemen" in the above post...there are certainly some ladies on here who have good input as well. My apologies ladies.

I tried to indicate with the red lines across the heels where I would have trimmed the heel length. When I reduced the size of the picture, I guess you can't really see that very well. If you look very closely at the heels on a hoof like this you will see a point where the horn tubules begin to distort and run forward. I use that point as my maximum heel length, bucause the hoof is telling me that beyond that point it can no longer sustain a load without distortion.

The line I drew across the center of the hoof is where I believe that the widest part of the foot should be, based on Duckett's bridge. If you were to dress down the lateral side from about the first nail hole to the red line, you would effectively move the widest part of the foot to that location.

The tendency is for the hoof to distort outward and forward in front of the bridge, and distort inward and forward behind the bridge. So again, I am using the point where distortion begins as my guide to gathering the foot back to where it should be.

This particular hoof has a lateral flare that is creeping away from the bridge. Knocking about 1/16" off of that flare at the ground surface would bring the widest part of the foot back to the bridge.

Some people find the widest part of the foot by using the white line as the guide. I use the bridge because it is in the center of the foot and thus subject to less distortion than the perimeter. This is where the differences between Ducketts system and the rest of the trimming protocols become confusing.

Duckets landmarks and references work from the center of the foot outward to the perimeter. Its hard to explain the system without having a few cadaver feet to carve up. Most of the stuff published on the Internet about Duckett's work is just scratching the surface (pun intended) of his theory. I wish he would go back on the road again doing some seminars. Better yet write a book.

http://users.snip.net/~bloomer/SUNP0022.jpg

[THamilton]

Good Job!
I would do as Tom stated, and take the heels further down. This will not only get the horn tubules in better condition, but also allow the boney column to have better alignment.

The only thing that I would suggest, is a medicated hoof packing in the foot where the quarters are. It appears to me that the foot needs to be cleaned alittle more in this area. Taking your knife tip or a pick you can clean out the flaky brown/black junk. Then after preparing the foot and right before you nail on the shoe, place some Forshners or Magic Cushion (can be ordered online) to fill in the voids.

This packing will keep debris out, and aide in creating an environment that grows a better quality foot.

Tony

[rafterp2003]

My sincerest thanks to all who have posted so far. Tony, I'm getting what you say. I had gotten down to live sole in most of the surface of the foot, but I wasn't sure about digging further into that area in the quarters.

Also, another question to ya'll. If I set the shoe back, and rasp up from underneath, then am I correct in assuming the dorsal wall will eventually come back(over a period of time) to the perimeter of the shoe, as more foot is trimmed and starts to stand more upright?

[Gary_Miller]

Most of the stuff published on the Internet about Duckett's work is just scratching the surface (pun intended) of his theory. I wish he would go back on the road again doing some seminars. Better yet write a book.
Tom, our association recently had Mr. Duckett for a two day clinic. When he was done I was thirsting for more information on his theory. I asked him about a book, he stated that it was about half done. I'm sure glade I took notes.


Gary

[tbloomer]

Good Job!
I would do as Tom stated, and take the heels further down. This will not only get the horn tubules in better condition, but also allow the boney column to have better alignment.

The only thing that I would suggest, is a medicated hoof packing in the foot where the quarters are. It appears to me that the foot needs to be cleaned alittle more in this area. Taking your knife tip or a pick you can clean out the flaky brown/black junk. Then after preparing the foot and right before you nail on the shoe, place some Forshners or Magic Cushion (can be ordered online) to fill in the voids.

This packing will keep debris out, and aide in creating an environment that grows a better quality foot.

Tony
I usually dribble a few drops of merthiolate into those areas and the old nail holes and then nail on the shoe. I like the idea of using packing to keep the dirt out, but so far the merthiolate has done a good job of arresting further horn deterioration. It's always there imbedded in the horn under the dirt when I ruturn for the next shoeing. Usually the void grows out tight without further deterioration . . . assuming that the horse gets to stay on a regular shoeing schedule apropriate for its envoronment and growth. Usually the feet I work on get this condition by going too long between farrier visits.

In my area, six weeks is too long during the spring and summer. Most of my shod horses drop back to 4 weeks. It's hard convincing a horse owner that their horses need to be reset when their feet look perfect all the time. I tell them that if they can fit the tip of their hoof pick under the shoe at the toe, then it's time . . . 'cuz that's where I'm puttin' my nippers when I start my trim. :)

[tbloomer]

Tom, our association recently had Mr. Duckett for a two day clinic. When he was done I was thirsting for more information on his theory. I asked him about a book, he stated that it was about half done. I'm sure glade I took notes.


Gary
Lucky you. We've been trying to get him to do one for us for two years. Maybe I'll take it upon myself to organize a Duckett clinic . . . like I did with the last 5 clinics we had. Nobody else seems to want to follow up on actually making a clinic happen. Like most volunteer organizations, a few people do all the work and the rest just show up when it's convenient.

[Gary_Miller]

Lucky you. We've been trying to get him to do one for us for two years. Maybe I'll take it upon myself to organize a Duckett clinic . . . like I did with the last 5 clinics we had. Nobody else seems to want to follow up on actually making a clinic happen. Like most volunteer organizations, a few people do all the work and the rest just show up when it's convenient.
I understand that we really had to beg to get him here.

I learned so much about balance, anatomy, and the need to shoe the whole horse and not just the hoof. Since my training has all come from a class at the local college, apprenticeship, and books. His clinic opened my eyes and helped my understanding. It brought everything togeather. Best money I spent on horseshoeing thus far.


Gary

[tbloomer]

I understand that we really had to beg to get him here.

I learned so much about balance, anatomy, and the need to shoe the whole horse and not just the hoof.
Gary

Well, Gary, if you're gonna call yourself a "horse shoer" and not a "hoof shoer" . . .

We had Mitch Taylor for a hoof dissection clinic a few weeks ago. We loaded up som legs in Mitch's hydraulic press. Guess what. They all balanced on a fulcrum placed directly under Duckett's dot. Even with 2000lbs of pressure the toe did not tip forward or backward. How's that for scientifically proving that Duckett's dot is the center of weight bearing of the hoof!

Funny thing, nobody ever asked Mitch to do this experiment before. That's why we asked him to haul that press all the way from Kentucky to Delaware. You could say that we all proved a POINT um, er, DOT!!!

[Gary_Miller]

We had Mitch Taylor for a hoof dissection clinic a few weeks ago. We loaded up som legs in Mitch's hydraulic press. Guess what. They all balanced on a fulcrum placed directly under Duckett's dot. Even with 2000lbs of pressure the toe did not tip forward or backward. How's that for scientifically proving that Duckett's dot is the center of weight bearing of the hoof!
Thats really cool. Would of been a site to see.

However Mr. Duckett had me sold when he balanced a coffen bone on a pencil and the balance point was the dot. We then drilled a hole all the way tough the hoof at the dot and disected the hoof. The hole went right through the center of the coffen bone. I was really sold on his theory then it all just makes to much sense, backed up with years of study and research.


Gary

[rafterp2003]

More questions. I was looking at Sue Brumbaugh's article about Duckett's Dot. She talked about trimming down to live sole and using your dividers to get the measurments. My question is, what if you get down to live sole and your heels are still inside the widest part of the frog? Do you go ahead and trim down to the widest part of the frog? In other words, if this were your first time to shoe this horse, would you take him all the way down this shoeing, or over a period of shoeings? The mare in the picture was being shod at her 5th week...do you think it would help to shorten it to 4 weeks?

[Gary Hill]

I would greatly consider the ground in your part of Texas, as an influence as to how your horses feet are. Conformation is something alot of new Farriers apparently are not taught in the "schools" today. Conformation of each horse dictates how each horse should be "set". The western part of Texas is vastly differant that the eastern part and as these young horses grow barefooted they adapt of course to the ground they grow up on. It will take a few trims or resets before you start seeing the differance of what you are doing now. I used to work for a really good Trainer that would send horses with bad feet west to another ranch and leave them so their feet would change then bring them back to the east and it was amazing the differant of the condition of the feet. Once those heels get down and back abit more you will see the differance of your horses Conformation in a better light. Good Luck again, Gary

[rafterp2003]

Boy that's sure right Gary. We're in the Chihuahuan Desert out here, so it is always dry, but it's been exceptionally so. Nova's feet are dry,dry! Can't hardly cut them with a hoof knife! This shoeing was her 4th and she's looking better...I just wasn't sure how aggressive to be in trimming her heels down. Looks like from what everyone's posted so far, I could take her down more. I'm going to research the Duckett's Dot stuff more, and try and layout her foot better in 4 weeks. One question I still have, will the dorsal wall eventually come back to where the foot looks like a perimeter fit, rather than dubbed off from underneath?

[THamilton]

Take it off from underneath using your nippers. The rasp it to the shoe fit. When you clinch, you can thenfinish the foot to the shoe. If it appears that you are taking too much dorsal wll off, then you can slightly round the edge of where you nipped. This gives the foot a neat and fanciful finish.

The next time you shoe the equine, this area will more fit the shoe and the wall will have grown down. If you are in the desert like you say and you do this, consider a hoof sealant so the moisture is not robbed from the foot where you rasped.

Tony

[tbloomer]

More questions. I was looking at Sue Brumbaugh's article about Duckett's Dot. She talked about trimming down to live sole and using your dividers to get the measurments. My question is, what if you get down to live sole and your heels are still inside the widest part of the frog? Do you go ahead and trim down to the widest part of the frog? In other words, if this were your first time to shoe this horse, would you take him all the way down this shoeing, or over a period of shoeings? The mare in the picture was being shod at her 5th week...do you think it would help to shorten it to 4 weeks?
The problem with using the frog as a landmark for heel length is that the back of the frog is not a reliable reference. Since it is connected to the digital cushion and the digital cushion and heel bulbs can prolapse out the back of the foot, there is a problem using this area as a reference. The live sole in the seat of corn is a safer referrence point . . . but that also can get you in trouble. Then there is the "origin of growth" or the point where the horn tubules begin to distort and run forward. This is my preferred reference pint, but that too will get you in trouble. So what do I do? I use 'em ALL. Sometimes they all work and sometimes none of them work. The more you look, the more the horse will teach you what you need to see.

Stand the horse square on a slab and walk around looking at the feet. Sometimes your eyes are the only tools you need to see what's right for that horse. As soon as you pick one system and attempt to apply it to every horse, you're going to find horses that don't like that system. My solution is to learn the anm and use them all. Eventually you develop a sense of perportion that eliminates the guesswork. That's why we call this a science that is practiced by an artist.

[rafterp2003]

Thanks Tom.

[Showjumper]

This is an intersting thread but the pictures are not there anymore. Can you please post them once more???

[Phil Armitage]

The problem with using the frog as a landmark for heel length is that the back of the frog is not a reliable reference. Since it is connected to the digital cushion and the digital cushion and heel bulbs can prolapse out the back of the foot, there is a problem using this area as a reference. The live sole in the seat of corn is a safer referrence point . . . but that also can get you in trouble. Then there is the "origin of growth" or the point where the horn tubules begin to distort and run forward. This is my preferred reference pint, but that too will get you in trouble. So what do I do? I use 'em ALL. Sometimes they all work and sometimes none of them work. The more you look, the more the horse will teach you what you need to see.

Stand the horse square on a slab and walk around looking at the feet. Sometimes your eyes are the only tools you need to see what's right for that horse. As soon as you pick one system and attempt to apply it to every horse, you're going to find horses that don't like that system. My solution is to learn the anm and use them all. Eventually you develop a sense of perportion that eliminates the guesswork. That's why we call this a science that is practiced by an artist.

Tom's point on getting into trouble trimming to the live sole in the seat of the corn can get you into trouble on some feet. I have had this bite me in the butt a couple of times. The horses were sore and I had to seat out the shoe and use a rim pad to get them comfortable. The sole pressure in the area of the widest part of the foot was too much. I now leave more foot on these horses and they are fine. My thoughts without the use of radiographs is the wings of P3 or maybe some calsified cartiladge is close to the ground in the back of the foot. I notice the sole in the qaurters is hard (caloused). Maybe a weak digital cushion and reverse rotation of P3. Don't know for sure, but they do better with leaveing more heel.