Founder Questions

[Andrew Grimm]

This is a founderd pony that I've been working on for 3 shoeings and I have a few questions about some things I've seen.
When I first worked on this horse it took everything I had to get him finished because he was so lame. This is a school pony at a riding club and the owner informed me this pony has always had laminitic issues. I believe this is probably a chronic issue?
One thing that I've seen in this horse and others is a blueish tint in the sole area where the coffin bone is. Is this demineralization of the bone? and the soles on these types of horses are so dry and flakey. Is this because of lack of blood flow? and is it true that on a founderd horse that lowering the heels to much can cause the bone to sink even more because of deep flexor tension?
I put reverse shoe on this pony because the owner really isn't willing to put much money into this pony and I figured the shoe alows leverage to be taken off of the toe? I'm not sure if it was the right thing to do but he is now comfortable enough to be ridden?
Here's some pics
http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/2212006urcssunny 003.jpg (http://s2.supload.com/free/2212006urcssunny 003.jpg/view)
http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/2212006urcssunny 005.jpg (http://s2.supload.com/free/2212006urcssunny 005.jpg/view)
http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/2212006urcssunny 008.jpg (http://s2.supload.com/free/2212006urcssunny 008.jpg/view)
http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/2212006urcssunny 009.jpg (http://s2.supload.com/free/2212006urcssunny 009.jpg/view)

[beslagsmed]

Couldn't say about the blueish color in the sole. For me, I am a firm believer in the heartbar shoe. This past year I set heartbars on 4 different horses and all 4 did really well. In Doug Butler's new book it really supports the heartbar and gives good reasons why. The shoe you put on looks great, but maybe if it was me I would have added frog support as well.

Mikel

[Forgewizard]

Andrew Grimm posted:

One thing that I've seen in this horse and others is a blueish tint in the sole area where the coffin bone is. Is this demineralization of the bone?
I don't think that the bluish color you are seeing is actually demineralizing P3. rather, just normal pigmentation. I have seen some wild color patterns on the soles of some horses with healthy hooves- not all soles are solid white, or grey or brown. As long as the pigmentation isn't RED, I wouldn't worry about it.

There is considerable bruising evident in that pony's hoof walls.

As for is it true that on a founderd horse that lowering the heels to much can cause the bone to sink even more because of deep flexor tension?

I, personally don't subscribe to the pull of the DDFT causing the P3 to pull away and rotate. The pull on the DDFT remains relatively constant as long as the horse is weighting that limb. There is a momentary increase in the pull at the instant of breakover, but I doubt it is enough to pull P3 away form it's attachment points.

I do, however, beleive that rotation is a result of the loss of laminar attachment across the toe area and the resultant downward weight (gravity) of the horse pushes the bony column downward while the ground forces push the hoof capsule UPwards.

Since the frog and digital cushion fill a large part of the back of the hoof, P3 has no choice but to get jammed upwards at the heel and this tilts the toe of P3 downward. Further bleeding and fluid leakage into the torn laminar attachment areas causes P3's tip to continue to be pushed away from the wall. But this process isn't started from the pull of the DDFT. The pull of DDFT remains relatively constant.

If a DDFT could actually pull the P3 loose from the hoof wall just because the heels were lowered, you'd see an awfully lot of protruding coffin bones on horses with long toes and low heels wouldn't you?

Yes, if this pony has consistent problems with lamintis, then they have not pinpointed the reasons for his troubles. They need to do more sleuthing!

I've had good results for the horse using an "open toed Bar shoe"- when the owner's tight wallet limits our procedures. Good luck!

Regards,
Kim

[Ronald Aalders]

Hi Andrew,

When money is tight, an open toe shoe is not a bad idea at all. But allow me to describe a better one.

First this is definitely a chronically foundered foot I see here. I appreciate the concern over stuff like demineralisation, and other trouble the feet may be in. But there's not much you can do other then to provide good hoofcare. No use loosing sleep here!

I like the shape of the trimmed foot in the second pic. I'm not too crazy about the position of the shoe in the other pics. What you are looking for is reduction of breakover, as much as you can. I personally have not ever seen anything better than a banana shoe for such cases.

But there are other thoughts. What about a square toed shoe? Like a NB type of shoe. Be sure to follow NB guidelines where shoe placement is concerned!

If you made the square toed shoe, taper the sides and toe so to allow medial, lateral ánd dorsal breakover. Add a wedge pad but cut the anterior part of it so the toe is floated. If the pony is sore with the wedge take off some more of the heels. That's the HEELS, start trimming a little behind the tip of the frog and be sure to trim heels to the base of the frog.

I added a pic with tapered sides and one where I cut out the toe like I tried to explain here. On a stable case like this appears to be you may just get away without pour in frogsupport. If the pony stays sore the foot is not as stable as it looks so you'll definetely need expensive frog support.

Hope this helps.


Ronald Aalders

[Jaye Perry]

This is a founderd pony that I've been working on for 3 shoeings and I have a few questions about some things I've seen.
When I first worked on this horse it took everything I had to get him finished because he was so lame.
Welcome to the club!!! Usually with laminitc horses/ponies, where economics are an issue, a request of pain meds to be administered the day before and the day of shoeing will help all involved- bute is a good med.





This is a school pony at a riding club and the owner informed me this pony has always had laminitic issues. I believe this is probably a chronic issue?Always- means a cushinoid prospect, request some hormonal evaluation from the vet to curtail future episodes.



One thing that I've seen in this horse and others is a blueish tint in the sole area where the coffin bone is. Is this demineralization of the bone? Blueish tint maybe sole pigment, predijous sole production or coppertox residule and or bruising. Bone loss can be seen on x-ray only.





and the soles on these types of horses are so dry and flakey. Is this because of lack of blood flow?
Dry and flaky is a sign of a foot becoming healthy, good blood flow!

and is it true that on a founderd horse that lowering the heels to much can cause the bone to sink even more because of deep flexor tension?"To Much" of anything can be bad- laminitic cases really need references with X-Rays, they will show "How Much " is to much or to little.



I put reverse shoe on this pony because the owner really isn't willing to put much money into this pony and I figured the shoe alows leverage to be taken off of the toe? I'm not sure if it was the right thing to do but he is now comfortable enough to be ridden?
Ya did just fine. The pony is going back to work. That was your job to do. People who run a schooling program are *****s in a lot of cases. They don't want to spend money on what makes them money. A lot of times the mentality is- " well it's just a schrolling pony, we can't spend the money "



Here's some pics
http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/2212006urcssunny%20003.jpg (http://s2.supload.com/free/2212006urcssunny%20003.jpg/view)
http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/2212006urcssunny%20005.jpg (http://s2.supload.com/free/2212006urcssunny%20005.jpg/view)
http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/2212006urcssunny%20008.jpg (http://s2.supload.com/free/2212006urcssunny%20008.jpg/view)
http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/2212006urcssunny%20009.jpg (http://s2.supload.com/free/2212006urcssunny%20009.jpg/view)[/QUOTE]

[Supernat]

Hi Andrew,

Great post with lots of good pics to get the idea of what u are posting...I shoe in the same type of enviorment that u are dealing with that a couple clients are pressed for money however they want the best they can only afford for their horses... I have found with the help of a senior farrier that lives nearby and helps me out that when people cant afford much what works best.. I take an old shoe and cut about two inches off of both sides at the heel.. then i weld the pieces on the heel of the shoe that im going to put on the horse.. i then square the tow as best i can then make a rocker tow for breakover.
Ive found that this really works well and reduces pain to the horse by elevating the heel and give quick breakover with the adjustments u make to the shoe.
I hope that this helps ive found that for clients that dont have alot of money i do what i can to help out.. All of the reviews that u have gotten here are great with lots of people who have great knowlege of corrective work.. Have a good week and if u need me to email ya a shoe that ive made up ill be glad to do so.. Until later take care and God Bless... B safe shoein..Shannon

[hoofnhound]

Hey Shannon..are you the one and the same that I met in Lexington last spring?
If so did you ever get the pic I sent of you and Mr Jones?
Nice to see you here!
Alison