Why the "us vs them?"

[trailhorse]

Hi all, Hey, I'm new here, so I thought I would ask why there is this "us vs. them" thing with barefoot vs. shod? It seems like everyone is either "barefoot is the only way to go," or "shod is the only way to go." I know there are a few out there (like me) who are open minded, but geesh, there is a lot of anomosity going around too.

Some of these "alternative" hoofcare movements (not sure what else to call them) were started by farriers, and yet other farriers are really out to slam them. How do we know if barefoot, natural balance, traditional shoeing or anything else is the best for the horse unless we are open to new ideas, and learning? What if you went to your doctor and he was only using knowlege that he learned in medical school 30 years ago and never learned anything new? Haven't things improved in medicine in the last 30 years? Why shouldn't shoeing be the same way?

I am a woman who learned to shoe her own horses about 10 years ago and has been doing it ever since. Am I that great a shoer? Probably not, but I have never stopped learning. The past couple of years shoeing has gotten hard on my body though so I called out a couple of different farriers over the past year and have not been happy with the results. In both cases I ended up paying good $$$ and having to redo the job myself. One left my horse's toes long and pointy and he was tripping so bad I couldn't ride him and the other just chopped off some hoof wall and sole and nailed a too-small shoe right onto the sole. Wasn't concerned about sole pressure, heel expansion or anything! Even my vet says he has to beg a friend to shoe his horses because he hasn't found a farrier he is happy with in our area.

So anyway, the body can't hardly take it anymore so I am exploring letting my trail horses go barefoot. I have 3 horses, two are geriatrics but still being ridden, and one 13 yr. old that is my main trail buddy. I stumbled onto the "barefoot movement" and was fascinated by it so I am striving to learn as much as I can. Will I be able to ride my horses in rocks? I don't know. But I am willing to give it a try. I figure no single horse out of three should get that much use as to be a burden on it, and if after 6 months or so I don't see at least some improvement on their sensitivity to rocks then I can always go back to shoes. It isn't a lifelong commitment or anything. So I am learning the "wild horse" type trim in earnest because I really hunger for all the horse knowledge I can get. Yes, I believe in shoeing, but I am still open to barefoot.

I don't understand why so many farriers seem threatened by it. If it doesn't work like you insist, then you have nothing to fear, right? If it does work, then many horse owners will still need someone to trim their horses, and there will always be people who feel horses need shoes. So what is the harm? I read someone's opinion that if barefoot makes them sore, then it must be bad (ie. "listen to the horse"). But if a person sits on the sofa all the time and watch's TV and then get a membership at the gym, then they will be sore too until their body get's used to it. That doesn't mean they should give up and continue being a couch potato though! And eventually their body will get used to it. Perhaps letting a horse go barefoot is the same way?

I AM NOT interested in any trim that is invasive. But it makes sense to me to let the horse build up sole callous, deflare the flares, and then roll the edges. :)

[Dances with Hooves]

Nope

Dr. Bowkers research shows that unless foals are allowed to move several miles in the first hours of life and to play with the herd and other foals in the first weeks the digital cushion does not develop the stregnth and resilience as if that foal was spending its time in a natural herd environment. When a foal hits the ground predators know that the placente and foal are easy meals. "Guard Mares" defend baby and mom for an hour or two then the foal must move 1-2 miles away from the placenta. In the coming weeks baby will move with the herd as it travels 10-15 miles a day and the spring foal crop is very lively and they move much more than the herd as they run circles around it. This stimulation to the foot develops a bombproof foot.

Contrast this to what we do raising foals. excepting ranch horses that are turned out for the winter and rounded up in the spring (where the foals get a natural start) Mom is placed in a deeply bedded stall, warming heat lamps are hung, baby is kept in the stall for a couple of weeks to "protect" the foal and when finally turned out there is not a lot of room to move and foals are often seperated.

Additionally breeding for speed, color, jumping ability or some other characteristic introduces genetic faults like appies tending to have eye problems, behavioral issues and for our discussion ****py feet.

So by messing with the genetics and becasue our foal raising practices in the critical first days hours and weeks are most unnatuaral we create lots of horses with feet that are not as strong as if they had hybrid vigor (diverse genetic base - in dogs mutts have less health issues than prue bred show dogs) and got to move move move when they hit the ground.

The result is that some of our horses can go barefoot but some cannot. The "barefoot movement" is cultlike in its insistance that ALL horses can go barefoot. They are just as wrong as someone who might insist that that all horses have to wear shoes.

A nice middle of the road approach can be found here. Where a natural trim is used and Shoes that provide the bio-mechanics of the bare foot are available for those horses that can't go barefoot.

www.NBhoofcare.com

[David Hayne]

Trail Horse,

To answer your question honestly I can only comment from my own personnal experinces. Whenever I shoe or trim a horse I am only concerned about the cause and effects of what I do whenever I am performing my farrier skills...what I do today on a horse will have an effect on the way of travel or comfort. Since most 50% of horses I work on are trimmed and the other shod...if the horse is not performing right then I most seriously take a hard look at what I am doing. When observing any horse we also most look at what is being asked of the horse...is it a farriers fault that a horse is ridden hard by a rider an comes up lame, is it a farriers fault if the saddle does not fit....most of the time if a horse is not traveling right or comes up lame the farrier is the first person to be questioned on the cause and effect of their job.

To understand the function of the horses hooves and what demands are being asked of the horse will aid us all in understanding how to work on the horses hooves....jumpers are shod differently then barrel racers.....etc...there are books and books of info to be read and " remembered ", but the bottom line comes down to, what are you asking of your horse....enviroment...terrian ....work....

I first heard of the Natural Barefoot trim from a friend who studied in Germany from a Vet in 2000....I was working on her horses and did for about 6 years until she decided to trim her own hooves. In keeping an open mind we both had wonderful conversations concerning the pros and cons of my farrier work....was I doing something wrong or did she simple want to trim her own horses hooves....whichever it was she is one lady who I respect because in her studies she and I learned so much concerning pros and cons of shoeing and or trimming. After trying one style she slid away from the invasive attack on a live sole and is now trimming similar to the way I was always doing it. About Barefoot trimmers and farriers getting along ....two friends of mind who studied the Natural hoof trimming, where the two people who helped me study for my American Farrier Association Written Certification Exam....To this day we can talk hooves with out anger....yeah.

Trimming a hoof is one thing but the question of balance is another matter....how much toe is taken off, medial / lateral balance, etc., is the horse sore or lame after the job....put 10 farriers in a room and get them to find a flaw with another job and you will get 10 different answers......this is one reason why I fiqure the Certification for the Amerian Farrier Association is based on a scale....balance, shoe fit, nail placement........if the numbers add up you pass, if not it is back to the drawing board....or should I say shoeing board.

As a farrier I also studied other peoples methods of trimming/shoeing....call it whatever you want to call it but the bottom line comes down to this....a horses hoof is a living organisim and it is always changing its shape and form and this is why we most have a full understanding on what we do when we start trimming and shoeing. Strausser, Ramsey, Jackson are books I have read concerning the Bare Foot Trim because my clinets where asking the question. As a farrier I can only answer to my own work and just because someone writes in a book to concave a live sole or rasp away a quarter or whatever , I most answer to the horse.

For those who choose to try to have their horses live a natural or wild horse life then as a farrier more power to them. I have clinets who have changed from shoes to Barefoot trim and also those who went back to the farrier world again... If the horse is tenderfooted on rocks then you cannot ride him on rocks an it does not take a professional in any style of hoof care to realize this. It is the owners responsiblity to prove the best care for their horse and who am I to say what you can do or can't do to your own horse....it's your decision.

As a farrier I have been attacked by barefoot humans who say that I am doing harm to a horse by putting shoes on them and this is something I take major offensive with. If I am working on about 200 horses a year over the last 20 years and someone who is just trimming their own hooves wants to tell me that I am causing harm to these beautiful animals......then they all can go a pound sand. I belong to two Farrier Associations and we farriers do a pretty good job of debating among ourselves or deciding does this horse need protection or can they go with out shoes.

"Since there are no laws who can trim or shoe a horse in North America " then anyone can put a shingle on their wall and call themselves a farrier or Bare hoof trimmer......I will speak for the horse if I see a job that is causing a lameness issue but politely....and I respect anyone who only have the soundness of their horse in mind....wheather it is trimming or shoeing styles.

Ten farriers can look at my work and find a flaw, ten horse owners can look at my work and find a flaw and ten barehoof trimmers will find a flaw with all of the above. To attack a farrier who is putting shoes on a horse is a major attack on someones lively hood and here lies the arguements....we all have to feed ourselves with the jobs we choose. Trimming or shoeing horses can be done by anyone who wants to learn the farriery trade but it is thru knowledge that we strive to maintain our own professional level. If I am having a problem with a horse I am working on I know the people to talk to or the farrier forums to read for positive info.....

I agree with you and have one last thought about your question about the anomosity among farriers verses barefoot trimmers.....in Canada we have animal rights associations and or SPCA's....if the major marketing sell of barefoot trimmers is that farriers putting shoes on horses are causing harm then why have or are these organizations staying quite....something to think about.

We know in the farrier world that their are hacks out their giving our profession a bad name .....I also learned from my two clinets who studied from Strasser/Jackson/Ramsey that they are being faced with the same problem........their is one thing I know for sure...keeping an open mind is better then a closed one in any profession.

take it easy on the rocks and thanks for the question,

David

[fairweatherforge]

trailhorse I think you have the wrong idea about most farriers. What irritates a lot of farriers about barefoot people is that they think every horse can go barefoot. That's obviously not the case. Even in the most ideal situations thats not always the case. Any good farrier's gonna tell you if your horse doesn't need shoes, then don't put them on. When we pull shoes for the winter, we tell the owner, the horse might be a little ouchy for a while. Everybody already knows this.

I've yet to meet a farrier who's been threatened by barefoot only people. These days I don't know if there's anything that hasn't been tried as far as shoeing and trimming go. Shoe's are placed anywhere from the center of rotation to extended toe shoes. And trimming, guys have been dipping quarter rolling of toes rolling in heels and everything else for a long long time.

There are a lot of horses that have shoes on that don't need them. We know that. And there are a lot of horses, due to bad breeding, that would not survive in the wild. And when a horses owner buys a piece of property and the farrier tells them the land is unsuitable for there horse. I doubt there gonna sell there property.

In my opinion, most people that are using a barefoot only approach have run into an incompetent farrier along the way. Which has put a bad taste in there mouth as far as shoeing goes. Because like I said before, a good farrier already would have tried going barefoot.

If your gonna try the "wild horse trim". I would suggest not taking the toe as short as a wild horse. Because then your probably gonna have to call in a professional to apply the shoes when he's crippled.

[reillyshoe]

Vets disagree with farriers, barefoot people disagree with vets AND farriers, farriers disagree with other farriers, horse owners are stuck in the middle. At some point one has to conceed that the answers in our industry are limited to repeating what works, and trying something new when what is currently being used is not working for the horse. I recognize the work of almost every farrier in my area because they each have found some success doing things a bit differently. The barefoot crowd is actually comprised of several different ideas about what constitutes correct.
The cost of shoeing horses is high by necessity, I doubt any of the farriers you have been dissatisfied with drive Mercedes on the weekends. As you have found, shoeing takes a toll on the body. Your horses might do very well barefooted, and then again they might not. Give it a try, and if it doesn't work then keep looking for a farrier whose work suits both you and your horses.

[calshoer]

Trailhorse,
Most farriers DO agree with barefooting horses whenever practical and possible, and as often as possible .
The problem has arisen between the groups because some barefooters think ALL horses should ALWAYS go shoeless and that ALL shoes are some kind of evil thing.
Fortunately there are professional hoof trimmers like Pete Ramey (a well known barefoot practitioner) who are openly encouraging barefoot trimmers to have more respect for farriers.. he understands the problem.
And farriers who disrespect all barefoot trimmers also need to take a bigger look and realise that barefoot trimmers are not all alike.
Patty

[kanderso]

Vets disagree with farriers, barefoot people disagree with vets AND farriers, farriers disagree with other farriers, horse owners are stuck in the middle....

Or maybe more accurately, horse owners disagree with vets, farriers, barefooters, trainers, and other horse owners--as do vets, farriers, barefooters, trainers, and other horse owners!

My feeling is that as long as both sides get to air their opinions then disagreement is a healthy thing. OTOH, if opinions are snide and backbiting, so one only hears one side of the argument, then it's not healthy and to be avoided.

Kris

[trailhorse]

If your gonna try the "wild horse trim". I would suggest not taking the toe as short as a wild horse. Because then your probably gonna have to call in a professional to apply the shoes when he's crippled.

I agree. I pulled the shoes off of two of my horses. The one that is always tender on hard ground/rock with shoes is of course even worse now. But I shod him only two weeks ago and I am guilty of taking out some sole to avoid sole pressure when putting on the shoe. So I am not surprised but hope if he gets some time to "grow" he will get better. If not, then I am not against putting shoes back on him. All I did when I took the shoes off was to roll the edges to prevent chipping and keep the breakover back a bit.

My other horse that I just pulled the shoes on was a BLM mustang that I have owned for about 8 months. He was captured when he was 3 (and now he is 13) so he should have had a good 3 years to develope good feet before his original owner had him shod. I really don't know if his original owner had him in shoes just because it was the normal thing to do, or because the horse really needed it. I guess we will find out! When I pulled the shoes I didn't trim a thing except a bit of the heels/quarters because they were getting long, but I left all his toe and just rolled everything else. I have ridden him twice and although he feels a rock now and then he rides pretty good. I will never take out live sole on the barefoot guys. I think the key is to leave as much sole as possible and use that as a guide for trimming or even just rasping the hoof wall as needed. The only sole I will take out is the stuff that want to flake out on it's own.

Hey, one more question, how much heel is it "safe" to remove at one time? I don't mean cutting down into live sole/heel buttresses, but if the buttresses have crumbly sole and I want to take them down a bit, how much is okay without stressing the tendons? When I shoe I have been guilty of keeping the heels too high, and now that I am trying barefoot, it has become apparent that the heels should come down. Everything I read about trimming barefoot just sort of says "take the heels down using the sole as a guide" but I remember from my farrier science class that you shouldn't come down more than a couple of degrees at a time or you can stress the tendons. So what do you think? I just took a bit off, as much as I felt comfortable doing, and even though it looks like they could come down more I felt I should wait a few weeks to re-evaluate. I am also making sure I give a good "mustang roll" to the toes to help breakover and avoid chipping. Thanks to all that have replied so far. :)
Kim

PS. If the photos work, here is the horse in question. Photos show the whole horse, the front left leg and the back left leg. Do the angles seem fair in relation to the pasterns? I think the heels on the back feet look high, but again, once I take them off they can't be put back on, so I want to take it slow.

http://www.cybertrails.com/~victoryranch/johnafterbarefoottrim.JPG

http://www.cybertrails.com/~victoryranch/leftfore.JPG

http://www.cybertrails.com/~victoryranch/leftforebottom.JPG

http://www.cybertrails.com/~victoryranch/backleft.JPG

http://www.cybertrails.com/~victoryranch/backleftbottom.JPG

[John Emsley]

Trailhorse, Take a good look at your horse, a kind over weight fellow that runs downhill and is built for two. I can't imagine taking picture of my horse without him being groomed and looking as good as he can. I try to never leave the house without my hair combed, my clothes clean and my fly done up. In other words, we're on different pages as far as understanding what a professional farrier is all about. After ten years, you're asking about the heels?! Believe me, this is not guess work. Sorry for being so hard, but it makes me :( annoyed when I come across a client that acts teachable but isn't.

[trailhorse]

Trailhorse, Take a good look at your horse, a kind over weight fellow that runs downhill and is built for two. I can't imagine taking picture of my horse without him being groomed and looking as good as he can. I try to never leave the house without my hair combed, my clothes clean and my fly done up. In other words, we're on different pages as far as understanding what a professional farrier is all about. After ten years, you're asking about the heels?! Believe me, this is not guess work. Sorry for being so hard, but it makes me :( annoyed when I come across a client that acts teachable but isn't.

Is there a horse out there that is perfect? Post any picture of ANY horse and I'm sure we can all list it's short commings.

He looks like he runs downhill because he is standing on a hill. Imagine the hind end on the same level as the front end and you will get a better idea. Yes, he's a bit dirty, hairy, and is was blinking when I took the picture. He's indeed fat and I don't mind a little fat on them in the winter. I thought we were evaluating the feet and their relation to the rest of the horse. I didn't know he has to be show-ready for a picture. Oh well, I guess this isn't a good place to come for help afterall. :(

John Emsley- what did I do to tick you off? :confused:

[trailhorse]

PS. I wanted a horse "built for two." I prefer to think of him as a miniature Belgian or small tank. :D

I never claimed to be a professional farrier. And because I am a filly I don't have to worry about my fly being up before I go out. :rolleyes:

Do you like this photo better? Notice that although the horse is still standing on a hill, he is not "running up hill." Sorry you don't like my horse. That is why he is my horse and not yours. :D

Here, for your viewing enjoyment is John right after I bought him. Notice he is actually much fatter, albiet better groomed. Notice the toe flares the professional farrier left on all four feet. Compare them to the feet on the less groomed John in my previous post. Unless I am totally mis-guided, I think his feet are in much better shape than when I got him.
Kim

http://www.cybertrails.com/~victoryranch/johpreviousfarrier.JPG

[Donald Ruff]

Trail Horse,

There seem to have been excessive paring of the sole from toe quarter to toe quarter prior to this trim. I am sure he is not really appreciating that to much on rugged terrain.
Have you had some one walk him prior and post trimming to evaluate his foot falls and see what he is telling you.
Just curious, don't want you to get offended or anything. Just asking questions.

Don

[Forgewizard]

Trailhorse,

I for one am a farrier that has more barefoot horses on my roster, than shod horses and am obviously NOT opposed to letting a horse go barefoot. I am however opposed to people constantly thinking that what the "wild" horses can do- their domestic horse can too! I also am opposed to these cult-like barefoot troops that invent a new catch phrase for something that many farriers do and have done for generations! Which is keep barefoot horses sound and able to perform! As long as the performance requirements don't outstrip the hoof growth or make the horse sore footed- let 'em stay barefoot; otherwise shoe the beast!

Shoes come in a wide variety- so there is always the option of marrying the two worlds- by using a flexible synthetic shoe IF the performance required allows it! Often there is NO substitute for a metal shoe!

To me the hooves posted in the photos seem to have too much overall depth.
The "leftforebottom" shows heels that are long and unlevel. And a frog that desperately needs cleaning up.

You may find that "never paring out any sole" will backfire on you because the built up dead sole will act like stones or ice jammed into the bottom of your horse's hoof.

The whole hoof can be brought back and the depth decreased probably at least another 3/8 to 1/2 inch.

I like to see decent heel depth on horse's hooves, but the off hind hoof looks broken forward and the near hind is quite close tobeing broken forward too. The solar view of the hind hoof shows similar issues as the forehoof.

Hope this helps!
Regards,
Kim

[Jan Palmer]

calshoer: Fortunately there are professional hoof trimmers like Pete Ramey (a well known barefoot practitioner) who are openly encouraging barefoot trimmers to have more respect for farriers.<<


Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t Mr. Ramey also hold to the belief that ALL horses should be barefoot? And doesn’t he encourage (admonish?) owners, no matter how ignorant of hoof anatomy and physiology they might be, no matter how unskilled with farrier tools and no matter how serious the pathology, to trim their own horses rather than use a farrier?

Jan

[Donald Ruff]

Can't say for sure Jan. I am not up to par on the Ramsey trimming protocol. I guess we could research his web site and find rather easily though.

Don

[trailhorse]

Thanks Don, Forgewizard, and everyone else who offered constructive criticism (rather than just telling they thought my horse was ugly).

Don, yes, I was guilty of paring some live sole on the fronts during the last shoeing and will make sure not to do that since he is now barefoot. The reason I did it (right or wrong and most likely wrong) is that I wanted to make sure the shoe wasn't putting pressure on the sole.

Forgewizard, this sort of brings me back to one of my original questons, how much heel can one take off and still not put undue stress on their tendons? I know you are telling me the hinds are overall too long, not JUST the heels, but you are also telling me that the feet are broken forward, which means the heels need to come down more than the rest of the foot. I think if I were to awnser my own question I would just tend to say take a touch off, nothing dramatic, but awnsering my own question wouldn't give me any new insight. :rolleyes: I guess I am also afraid that if I take the foot down overall, I will need to put shoes back on him because if I take the foot down overall, I will also be taking out more sole, which you say is okay, but others have said not to do (trim out live sole) so I am kind of in a quandary.

Jan and all, I can't awnser the question about Pete Ramey, but I do have his book on order because I like the articles I read on his website. Wether it works for me or not, I figure there must be some things I can learn from reading his book. :)

[Jeanie Connors]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t Mr. Ramey also hold to the belief that ALL horses should be barefoot?

Whether this is true or not, the truth still remains that he does a lot to improve "farrier, barefoot trimmer" relations. Or would you think it's better to encourage estrangement from each other?

And doesn’t he encourage (admonish?) owners, no matter how ignorant of hoof anatomy and physiology they might be, no matter how unskilled with farrier tools and no matter how serious the pathology, to trim their own horses rather than use a farrier?

Jan

No, he doesn't ;) . Getting a competant professional is still the best choice for any horse owner, from anyone's point of view.

[Kaydence]

I have to back trailblazer up on this. My pet peeve are the horses who are stalled 23 hours a day, not the horses who look like they have been allowed to enjoy life. Who cares about a little bit of dirt? The horse is obviously cared for and from the look of him, has more conditioning than many stabled, clean, thinner horses who are only ridden 3 or 4 times a week.

And how many owners post photos of their freshly bathed horse only to be told to stop getting the feet wet? This horse has dry feet, just like many of the farriers on here have said they should be.

Cheri

[Donald Ruff]

Trailhorse,

I have never had any good outcomes from parring out live sole, especially on all the horses that I have barefoot, and the shod horses.

There is a really good article in the AFJ this month that Dr. Hillary Clayton has on the preperation of barefoot horses and the overall affects, i believe that it's over and 18 month period but i coulds be wrong on the time frame of this. Seems to me that it would be a topic of intrest to you and possible worth while for you to check it out.

From my point a good solid base of support in the back of the foot is vital to all horses shod or barefoot. I guess you could call it from to function, if it's not functioning then the form won't be there and vice versa. Kind of a two way street. As well as frog function, if it doesn't serve it's purpose then it will atrophy and begin to narrow, heels will pinch and the foot will distort forward. Just from what i have seen here in Western Washington's great weather were you can literally exfoliate the foot with a wire brush sometime's. :D

Don

[calshoer]

I have met and spoken with Pete Ramey. He respects farriers and my impression was that he has nothing aganse farriers doing trims.
I think he would rather see a farrier do a good barefoot trim than an owner try it with no skills and consequently screw it up. He wants owners to get well educated about the fot physiology and do it right if they are going to do it.
Yes he barefoots everything, but he believes in protecting the foot as well. Therefore requires boots for his clients (and adds wedges, various pads and such as needed in the boots) . His work is common sense and conservative.
Patty

[Forgewizard]

Trailhorse,

The amount of sole you can pare out, pop out, or sc-ra-pe out, can be easily determined by the water soaking method.

All the chalky crumbly stuff can go. It would anyway if the horse walked through wet ground for any length of time.

As for how much to bring the overall depth down, again that will be revealed when the dead, built up sole has been removed.

If you are on hard ground, you may want to leave a small ridge, or even a THIN layer of chalky sole to help protect the hoof sole from bruising.

YOur terrain and use needs to dictaate the final outcome to the trim.

Bringin down the heels, or backing up the heels should be done slowly.Since you are doing the work yourself, a couple swipes with the rasp about every third or fourth day until you get the heels in a more supportive alignment will gently stretch any contracted muscles attached to tendons. Application of liniment to the apporpriate muscles and physically stretching and massaging the muscles will facilitate the lengthening.

When you reduce the overall depth of a hoof without altering its alignment or stance you can just go for it! take what needs to go and the horse will walk off fine.

In my book 'LIVE" sole constitutes that part of the sole that has living tissue within it- IOW that part of the sole which would bleed if pared. So DON'T pare it! Also, you will notice that the sole density will change as you start removing the chalky overgrown stuff, This density change occurs all around the hoof sole, not just in the toe region, but it IS more noticeable in the toe region. If your horse gets used regularly, leave this dense material there.

When trimming the hoof sole make all attempts to get the sole smooth, but don't get obsessed with it. If some chunks seem more tenacious than others- get 'em to pop off with either more soaking, or wait a couple more days.

What you'll discover, is that after all this built up sole gets removed, your horse's hoof will become a LOT more active and will probably start kicking into high gear on the growth! Often the step livelier too instead of letting their hooves fall with a clunk and a thunk!

Your horse's sole cups, not just side to side, but also front to back - very similar to your palm when you cup your hand. Keep this in mind when trimming. Leave the sole to cup , but trim the wall (yeah, yeah and the bars and the frog) so ideally it is flat. This allows the horse to be mainly supported by the wall, but active support through the sole comes into play as the sole flexes under the horse's weight.

Hope this helps!
Regards,
Kim

[trailhorse]

Thanks guys and gals! I rode the horse in question today and while he was careful on the dirt/gravel road that leads to the national forest, once I got him out there he moved out GREAT! I was so happy! I thought that once I pulled the shoes my cantering days might be over, but he moved so well that I let him canter on the softer trails and he did just great. I was so so happy, I can't say it enough. :D I took the heels on the back feet down a touch and some of the frog, as the frog was actually longer than the heels. I might take more down in the future, but I will see how he does with this for a while. Thanks everyone! :)

[trailhorse]

Hi all,

About the middle of last March I decided to try the barefoot thing with my Mustang, John (previous owner kept him in shoes). I wanted to give an (almost) 1 year update because I consider it a success and when I first started out I heard about people trying barefoot but never seem to hear if they succeeded. I did buy Easyboot Epics in April and used them most of the summer if I planned on doing longer rides. When going for short rides I just tried to stay off rocky trails and gravel as much as possible. I was still using Easyboots for long rides as late as October, and then it was like magic, he didn't seem to need them anymore! About that time I also decided to quit trimming his feet regularly, and just see how they wanted to wear naturally. So I have not really been trimming since about early November and he has been keeping his feet pretty well in-check just being ridden. I still occasionally trim bars, hanging pieces of frog, or rasp a little hoof wall if I think it might be starting to flare, but have pretty well trusted nature to decide hoof angles and balance. It is a hard thing for me to do, because I want to do little touch-ups whenever things look like they might be going astray, but I try to resist that urge because if I trim then how will I ever find out what the horses natural hoof angle and balance are?

Anyway, John just keeps getting better and better! I now ride anywhere I want with him barefoot, even on rocky trails. And the road he would tip-toe over last spring he happily walks right down the middle of now! No, he is not a hard working endurance horse or anything, but we ride every other day when the weather permits, for 2-3 hours at a time, which is all I require of a horse. The trails go from sandy to rocky to hilly to flat- we are in Arizona.

My barefoot experiment started last March because John wasn't good for having his back feet shod- he would pull them away constantly whenever he felt like it. I would have been happy if he could have just gone barefoot on the hinds. Then I started learning that some folks felt it was okay for a horse to go barefoot all the time, even ridden. Before that I thought I was a good horse mamma keeping them shod year round (since I rode year round).

So anyway, I took John out today for a nice long ride today, and he was hyper because it was snowing for the last couple of weeks and this was my first chance to ride for about two weeks. He wanted to trot and canter over all sorts of trails, trails he would slow down and pick his way carefully over only a few months ago. So I am VERY happy! :D The trails were very muddy, and I know that makes the ground softer even in the rocky areas, however the horse pens have been nothing but mud for weeks too, so his feet are very wet and not hard like they will be later in the year.

Basically, I am happy as can be, and I wanted to post this because it seems like you never hear what happened to the folks who experimented with barefoot. My 23 yr old Arabian also does wonderful barefoot- there was no transition with that guy, it was just sort of pull the shoes and go. My 27 yr old Paint never did get tougher feet though, so when I ride him he still goes in Easyboots. But at his age he is basically retired. I guess 2 out of 3 ain't bad. :)

Things I have observed:

1. Less is more when it comes to trimming. They can be going great, something looks like it needs tweaking, the horse is tender again. Basically, leave ALL firm looking sole alone.

2. If ridden enough, horses trim their own feet quite well. Growth and wear, at least at this stage in the game, seem pretty well in balance. He definitely doesn't wear them too much, and whatever trimming needs to be done can be done with a rasp and a hoof knife.

3. John does wear a good deal of toe off his front feet, and makes his own breakover. He really gives himself a 4-point, "natural balance" type trim, all on his own. Not all barefoot horses do that. Does this mean his feet are still finding the correct shape, or do some horses just do that? He also appears to have a good deal of toe-callous, and that along with squared looking toes he wears himself, means that his soles at the toe are always weight-bearing. Not sure what the significance of that is, but he continues to do better and better, so I assume it is not a bad thing?

4. I am still feeling my way through all of this, and this is an on-going experiment, subject to change if I feel the horse needs it. I am not anti-shoe, (yet anyway) but am pleasantly surprised by how far we have come in a years time. Still, this is something every horse owner has to decide for themselves, if it is worth the hassle and effort. Because it certainly IS easier just to hire a farrier and have them shoe your horse than it is to worry about boots, where you ride, etc., but John is getting better with every ride and to me it has been worth it. :) So as long has he seems sound and happy we will continue.

[Dances with Hooves]

[QUOTE=trailhorse]Anyway, John just keeps getting better and better! I now ride anywhere I want with him barefoot, even on rocky trails. And the road he would tip-toe over last spring he happily walks right down the middle of now![QUOTE]

Once you can ride the horse barefoot over rocks you have built a very very good foot.

[QUOTE]
John does wear a good deal of toe off his front feet, and makes his own breakover. He really gives himself a 4-point, "natural balance" type trim, all on his own. Not all barefoot horses do that. Does this mean his feet are still finding the correct shape, or do some horses just do that? He also appears to have a good deal of toe-callous, and that along with squared looking toes he wears himself, means that his soles at the toe are always weight-bearing. Not sure what the significance of that is, but he continues to do better and better, so I assume it is not a bad thing? [QUOTE]

I find the typical horse that is going to be able to remain barefoot on the terrain here in maine has what I call a self maintaining forward half of the foot. I might use a stroke of the rasp here or there to tweak something but mostly they maintain their own breakover. I find its very rare that a horse here can maintain his heels and do much more work in the caudal part of the foot.

[calshoer]

Im happy John is doing well. The main thing to remember is that he is a *mustang*, thereby with his anscestor's natural selection determinig the genetics he inherited for strong enough hooves to do what he is doing, and obviously having an environment condusive to wearing and toughening his feet.
Patty

[Auventera]

Nice to hear your good update. :)

I've found that one of my horses naturally wears her feet correctly, maintains her own breakover, and when I trim her, she requires very minimal work. She's an Arabian. On the other hand, my Appendix QH needs much more help to maintain proper foot form. She's a large horse with less than ideal conformation, and a very heavy body. She is conformationally slightly pigeon toed and so the lateral portion of the toes wear very quickly. She also tendds to grow much more excess bar than the other horse. This bar will lay over the sole if not trimmed back every 4 weeks or so.

So not all horses grow or wear feet the same way, and I think it has to do with many factors. Genetics being up on top of the list. My two girls are kept in a rougher environment - 24/7 turnout, fed the same diet, worked the same amount, but clearly they grow very very different feet that need very different care.

[Red Amor]

The OP asked basically why them v us , then went blar blar blar
so did alot of others

Most of the longer term and prominent exponants of B.U.A. were tought buy good natured generous FARRIERS who welcomed these parrisites took them about with them introduceing the as a FRIEND to other FRIENDS who welcomed them also , they were ofen fed by the Farrier or their FRIENDS

The Farriers would have ofen bought then lunch and a few drinkd come days end , no doubt introduceing the more FRIENDS as a FRIEND

The Farrier would ofen have given these parrisites tools and chaps , much knowlage and kindness not to mention a few $$ to help these snoozers out
AND FOR WHAT?
To have these grubs go out and spit it back into the face of these good hearted Farriers saying its Farriers who ruin hooves by mindlessly bash lumps o steel on horses feet
Why do these grubs behave like this ?
Because the couldnt cut it , the work was too hard , the lack what it takes to be a good traditional Farrier providing an holistic program of FARRIERY related hoof care
I cost a lot to set up properly and carrie all thats nescersary to do this well

The grubs see the easier and less expensive way to make realy good bucks and choose B.U.A Takeing the info ,experience and tools the good natured Farrier gave them and the proseed to slag his or her good name to all would lissen and under cut his /her rates and swipe whatever they can there as well
AND wonder why we want to smack em up the ear
THEN these ingrates come to other countries , states I slands and spew there bullashyzz to all that will pay their huge fees and teach and incourrage then the behave in the same manner and ***** can their local Farrier
WHO will usually end up cleaning up there mess
this is my oppinion , its what I seen and experienced on not just one occasion
Ive worked very hard to build what I have over 12 years and horse people flock to these upstarts who have been doing trimming 12 months [jeezzuz] :confused:
AM I BITTER ?
My fargoneoath I am :mad:

these are my final words on this subject

[Phil Armitage]

Did you have a bad day today Red? Hope all is well. :)

[Red Amor]

Um fine thanks Phil mate

Its just you might remember a while back I had time off when I had a hearty
and then around febuary last year I had another three months off broke foot and wrist
came back to find the rats in the corn , all grinning
I dont just expect LOYALTY from people I teach or just help a little along the way , but also from clients I broken back for as well

He he LIKE DONT GET ME STARTED :D

UM ORF now , that'll do , hoo roo ;)

[trailhorse]

Red, I understand where you are coming from. Sometimes it seems like the harder the person works, the more thankless the job is. :( I would be peeved too if I had your experiences.

Since the post has evolved from the original "us vs them," I probably should have started a different thread, but this one gave the background of what I was doing a year earlier with the same horse, so that is why I posted to it.

George_Spear.......
"I find its very rare that a horse here can maintain his heels and do much more work in the caudal part of the foot. "

I have wondered about that myself. Most of the tweaking I do is in the heels and quarters. They do tend to want to grow. I am not sure if he can self trim these in the long run, or if I will need to just trim them a bit here and there. I am torn between not neglecting his feet but also not over-tweaking them, because maybe he needs that extra heel.

Patty, that seems to be where farriers and the barefooters differ. It has been traditionally thought that some horses we just bred good feet out of, and therefore need shoes. The barefooters believe that all horses have the potential to have good bare feet if the environmental conditions are right. Wether or not natural selection played a part in Johns success in barefoot can be debated, but he certainly had at least a year of growing up wild as a foal with plenty of movement. He was caught as a yearling but I don't know at what point he was first shod or what his living conditions were like after that. He is a rather chunky guy, almost looks a little drafty, so I doubt he comes from a huge long line of wild horses. I'm sure it is a little of both, good genetics and the right living conditions.

Auventera...... I think Arabians are known for their tough feet. At least I have one now (and one in the past) and if I had known better and didn't trim the sole on my old Arabian he probably could have been barefoot too. But he passed away from colic so I will never know. But there were times I would let him go barefoot, then put shoes back on him the more I rode, so he had the potential.

Thanks guys for being friendly and civil. To be honest I was sort of afraid to post back on this board, because I was called a BUA son-of-a-gone on here in the the past.
:eek: I think it is wonderful for a horse to go barefoot if they can, and I am willing to try it, but I am not going to tell other folks what to do with their horses. And I'm sure some horses really do need to be shod, because my Paint seems like one of those. As a horse owner (with some farrier training) I just never realized that barefoot was a real option for the ridden horse. I really learned something and am glad I tried it. I was always taught barefoot is good for horses out of work, but I didn't know I could ride them barefoot too. I guess I have a lot to learn about this big ol' world. :o

PS. Maybe one day soon I will get some fresh photos of John's feet, because I really would like opinions on them. For instance, he has one front foot that grows higher on the inside and puts the breakover crooked. I am not sure if that is something that needs tweaking, or if it is a result of his conformation and should be respected as such. So one days soon when I get him cleaned up I will get photos.

:)

[trailhorse]

The OP asked basically why them v us , then went blar blar blar
so did alot of others

Most of the longer term and prominent exponants of B.U.A. were tought buy good natured generous FARRIERS who welcomed these parrisites took them about with them introduceing the as a FRIEND to other FRIENDS who welcomed them also , they were ofen fed by the Farrier or their FRIENDS

The Farriers would have ofen bought then lunch and a few drinkd come days end , no doubt introduceing the more FRIENDS as a FRIEND

The Farrier would ofen have given these parrisites tools and chaps , much knowlage and kindness not to mention a few $$ to help these snoozers out
AND FOR WHAT?
To have these grubs go out and spit it back into the face of these good hearted Farriers saying its Farriers who ruin hooves by mindlessly bash lumps o steel on horses feet
Why do these grubs behave like this ?
Because the couldnt cut it , the work was too hard , the lack what it takes to be a good traditional Farrier providing an holistic program of FARRIERY related hoof care
I cost a lot to set up properly and carrie all thats nescersary to do this well

The grubs see the easier and less expensive way to make realy good bucks and choose B.U.A Takeing the info ,experience and tools the good natured Farrier gave them and the proseed to slag his or her good name to all would lissen and under cut his /her rates and swipe whatever they can there as well
AND wonder why we want to smack em up the ear
THEN these ingrates come to other countries , states I slands and spew there bullashyzz to all that will pay their huge fees and teach and incourrage then the behave in the same manner and ***** can their local Farrier
WHO will usually end up cleaning up there mess
this is my oppinion , its what I seen and experienced on not just one occasion
Ive worked very hard to build what I have over 12 years and horse people flock to these upstarts who have been doing trimming 12 months [jeezzuz] :confused:
AM I BITTER ?
My fargoneoath I am :mad:

these are my final words on this subject

PS. Water seeks it's own level. If they are soring horses and generally incompetent then the owners will fire them and go back to you. No one wants their horses sore or uncomfortable. If they happen to be good, then they will find a niche, but it is unlikely it will compete directly with you as most people still want their horses shod. It's a big world with room for both, and if all the barefoot stuff is ****, which is what some farriers seem to believe, then they have nothing to worry about. If it ever becomes truly the wave of the future, then don't beat 'em, join 'em. It is less work for the same pay afterall. ;) But at least in my case, I was a do-it-yourselfer to begin with. I always had an interest in doing my own horses feet, and I don't do anyone elses but my own. Maybe I am a parasite too, I took a farrier science class years ago and rode around with the farrier who taught the class. But I am not selling myself out as a farrier or barefoot trimmer, just someone who wants to be able to maintain their own horses feet. I don't think any farriers lost their job over me, one person with 3 horses....I am just a drop in the bucket. Most farriers are very good natured and kind. The ones I have known have taught me a lot. They have always encouraged me, even though I am a woman, that I can do my own farrier work. I have had a good relationship with the farriers I have met in real life. :D

[goeslikestink]

iam ahorse owner with both barefoot and shod horses and ponies i havent aproblem with barefoot horse nor ponies i have a problem with of whomes doing the work-- to me a farrier is the only one qualfied in his field as a craftmen to correct etc faulty limb action-- if there is any-- and of whome is taught to trim and said feet -- with a farrier ou get a full service-- and have to say this to i notice with trimmers they charge heaps more than a farrier and for what exactly ------------

[spotteddrafter1]

It's a big world with room for both, and if all the barefoot stuff is ****, which is what some farriers seem to believe, then they have nothing to worry about.

But, the problem is what the OT posted...why US v THEM? The BUAistas say that all shoes are evil. They also say that all horses can go barefoot, it's the owners that can't. I know this, because I used to be one.

Now that I've seen the light, I can answer that the "us vs. them" comes from the BUA side. Not one farrier that I've talked to has said that all horses have to wear shoes. Nor has one ever told me that all horses can wear shoes, it's the owners that can't. The BUA movement is so closed-minded, even though they profess not to be.

Without speaking for any farrier, I would say that it's pretty safe to assume that if a horse can maintain his working level barefoot, then a farrier is not likely to recommend shoes. My farrier in particular maintains many of his clients barefoot, but he recommends shoes for the ones that need them. And, yes...some horses need shoes. They just do. The only way that all horses can go barefoot is if all owners have pasture ornaments.

Some horses have conformation issues, have hoof issues, have underlying health issues....or just can't do it. My horse cannot remain barefoot with the level of riding that I do. But, I have a horse so that I can ride. Not so I can sit around and watch her laze the day away in pasture....or do nothing but hours and hours of round-penning/bridlework from the ground.

I ride. And, not in a perfectly manicured arena....or soft lush pasture. I ride in creek beds. Over and down steep gravel hills. Up the side of a cliff. Down into and across rivers. I ride.

My horse can't do any of that barefoot, even though I pushed her for 3 years, in pain, to do it. Boots aren't an option for us....not with what we go through and over. She has had shoes on since July 2006, and we've logged 450 miles since then.

Us VS Them? I don't understand why there has to be that mentality. Shouldn't we all be focused on the horse? Shoes are an option that have to be considered.

Just my 2 cents.

[J.H. shoeing]

Well there we are, welcome back. Enjoy your horse.

[Auventera]

Here is my 3 cents......

I think that some people imagine the "barefoot only" argument when it isn't always there. For instance, as soon as they hear you're a "trimmer," then look out because you're the devil. You hate shoes. You think all horses should be barefoot. And you have no use for ****** farriers.

But the truth is - that's usually not the truth at all. In my quest for learning, I've talked to MANY trimmers and actually I haven't met a single one yet who says absolutely all horses must be barefoot, no matter the situation, the cir***stance, or the pain involved. Sure, their websites may say that shoes aren't healthy for the feet, or horses should be barefoot, but when you actually talk to them, you find out that they do believe there are exceptions and some horses do actually need shoes.

I think a lot of the anti-shoeing drama is internet based, but real trimmers in real life are much more open minded. I've gotten into a few little arguments with people on bulletin boards but the problem is, if people post anonymously, they can post whatever they want, and you don't know if it's only to get a rise out of you, or if they're really serious. Sometimes I think some of the US vs. THEM drama is cultivated by bored people on the net trying to pass the time during a boring work day.

I trim horses, and I'm enrolled with KC La Pierre for a podiatry diploma. But that doesn't mean I will lecture you on how horrible shoes are, and how ****** and abusive you are for using them. It just means that I want to trim horses and I want to learn more about foot function, health, environment, structure, and so forth. It means that I am pursuing one segment of a well rounded education.

But really - you have no clue how many people have given me the "Oh, you're one of THEM" comments via the internet. No, I'm not one of "them." I am simply a person who wants to trim horse feet, and work in conjunction with farriers to provide hoof care to horses. That's all. No drama needed. If shoes are needed, then shoes are needed. If the horse can be barefoot, then you can gladly be my client and I will provide for your horse.

I quite frankly cannot understand all the cultivated drama surrounding this issue that just simply doesn't seem to be there in real life. When you actually talk to people face to face, or over the phone, you see a softer side of people. You see that everyone just wants to work together to make horses comfortable, safe, and competitive. In real life I just haven't experienced the supposed US vs. THEM.

Note: From what I understand though, the strasserites are on a whole different galaxy from all the ramey, KC, Jackson, etc. people. :eek: From what I understand, those people really are nuts, even in real life.

[Appassionato]

And if no one believes you, tell them to go to COTH. :D

[spotteddrafter1]

Well there we are, welcome back. Enjoy your horse.

Thank you, it's SO good to be back! ;)

It was a long, hard journey....and the guilt is still there at times. But, I try to welcome the guilt as a rememberance that we always have to listen to the horse before we listen to anyone else. Farrier. Trimmer. Whatever. The horse's voice will always guide us, we just have to listen. For me, all the clutter got in the way.

[J.H. shoeing]

that was well said

[dusters250]

I guess I'll throw my opinion in. As a study of the barefoot trim, I did gravitate to Pete Ramey. His experience is what drew me this direction. I was ready to start study work and go to a Farrier school a few years back when I ran across the Barefoot method, I looked at all of them. At that time, both sides were at odds, and still are it appears. It kind of reminds me of what happened to the Doctor vs Chiropractor issue. The fact is, with both issues, both work! And people are starting to understand, both work, just not for every horse all the time. Of the three I have now, my own ride comes the closest to a barefoot ride. I did have shoes put on him late last summer. He was sound on heavy rocky trails, but when he had enough he got shoes. Even he can't go barefoot all the time. I think the majority of barefoot people understand that it's not for every horse all the time, and don't make the horse suffer for "their" belief. I think a lot of barefoot people and farriers, while hold different thoughts, share a middle ground. But the fringes on both sides don't mind causing problems and throwing the snide comments around. Nuff said.
Now, in barefoot mode. Looking at your "clean horse" photo, looking at the hoof profile, left front from the side. It appears the hoofwall has two angles, the upper is steeper, this is your natural hoof angle. If you are going barefoot, keep the front hoof wall trimmed back to the white line, keep the breakover back, and trim this area often (every couple weeks,(it will only take a minute). In theory, this will allow the natural angle to reach the ground,and you will not have any toe separation. You will have a good hoof capsule and a stronger hoof wall. And yes you can and should trim the sole if needed, why? you don't want, as said before, sole to build up. How, refer to Pete Rameys book. In short, it is a judgement on how much and what angle, but it is an area in front of the bars and around the tip of the frog to the bar on the other side. It is far beyond the scope of this post, but it is a small area, and it works. If you are going to have your horse shod, let your farrier trim the toe back, if indeed this is what I am seeing in your photo.
As far as the idea that the barefoot movement is in favor of all horse owners trimming their own horses, I don't believe this for a second. I do believe the general idea is for all horse owners to become educated, in the trim, in the horses enviroment, in the feeding program, much more so than any farrier I have ever talked to. Some will take exeption to what I said above I am sure, But, this is my experience, training, and my opinion. Of course, this may change at any time, the more I learn, the more I know what I don't know

[Haffiegirl]

But the truth is - that's usually not the truth at all. In my quest for learning, I've talked to MANY trimmers and actually I haven't met a single one yet who says absolutely all horses must be barefoot, no matter the situation, the cir***stance, or the pain involved.

You haven't met the women who used to trim my horses.

when I ran into trouble, I got dumped and then accused of "joining the other side" when I turned to my farrier.

They are out there. Spotted drafter is right. And now, because of those past experiences, I find myself working hard not to be as closed minded towards the barefoot folks.

[Bill Adams]

I trim horses, and I'm enrolled with KC La Pierre for a podiatry diploma.
Without starting a new set of us's or them's, it is things like 'a podiatry deploma' that bring another leval of silliness into the mix.
A Podiatrist is an MD or DVM who specializes in treating aliments of the foot, and their work involves perscribing medication and performing invasive surgical procedures.
So you don't feel picked on, I've knowen Farriers who have called them selves hoof doctors, though somewhat tongue in cheek.
Explain why one does this pay your money, do the course, get a prentious, incorectly defiened, so called deploma. It cheapens the good training that can be had when this fake propriatary BS is added.
Bill