How long do laminitis symptoms take to appear?

[GloryGirl]

Example: I moved my horse to a new barn at that very beginning of September. I buy my own feed so the only thing that has changed for her in that department is the hay quality and the amount of grass in the pasture. The hay is of slightly better quality but she recieves less and the there was slightly more grass in this new pasture, but by September it was already eatten down. My main question is simply - If this horse was to going to founder from these changes would it have happened already? This being the end of the second month she's been at this new barn.

[TE Couch]

24 and 72 hours depending on the source is the amount of time it takes from the insult/s causing laminitis till we see symptoms.
TE

[Phil Armitage]

How did you introduce your horse to pasture and the new hay, and are you feeding the same amount of Grain or did you reduce it now that he gets better Hay and green grass? My opinion, there can be damage to the Laminie and not even know it. This sets the horse up for more damage later, because it takes a year to grow a new foot that is firmly attached by healthy laminie. If your horse is subject to something else during this time the foot is already weak and the damage can be worse or even founder. Adding Pasture and better hay is a big change and big changes are not good, requires strict management when first making these changes and probably reducing grain or even removing it from the diet. Personaly I prefer manageing my horses diet by not allowing them to graze, just feed a good quality hay and grain. Worked for me for over 20 years. My paddocks are all dirt and rocks, good for there feet and enough room the run around for excercise. If I have a horse that grazes then I do not feed hay and grain, however I question the nutriants and minirals there getting, that is when I would consider feeding a small amount of grain as a suppliment to the grass and I use the same phylosophy when feeding hay. Hay is the main diet, grain is a suppliment for consistant nutrition, vitamins and minierals. The Grain I feed is a good quality, so I do not use any other types of supplements. This keeps the cost down. (excuse my spelling, I am horseshoer not a writer)

[GloryGirl]

Thank you both for your responses.

One more question. This horse came in from the field hopping lame on one front foot after being 100% sound the night before and the morning of. The farrier initially thought laminitis because of the location of pain assiciated with the hoof testers, but there was little if any heat in the foot. When he cut into the toe a little a small amount of **** came out followed by another small amount a few minuites later after the horse stood on it. Would this **** point to an abscess or is **** seen commenly in conjunction with laminitis? The farrier led me to believe that because he found **** that this was not laminitis.

The horse is still quite soar but did walk out better than before the hole was made. It is being treated as an abscess to try and draw out the rest of the infection that is believed to be higher up.

[Mike Ferrara]

Thank you both for your responses.

One more question. This horse came in from the field hopping lame on one front foot after being 100% sound the night before and the morning of. The farrier initially thought laminitis because of the location of pain assiciated with the hoof testers, but there was little if any heat in the foot. When he cut into the toe a little a small amount of **** came out followed by another small amount a few minuites later after the horse stood on it. Would this **** point to an abscess or is **** seen commenly in conjunction with laminitis? The farrier led me to believe that because he found **** that this was not laminitis.

The horse is still quite soar but did walk out better than before the hole was made. It is being treated as an abscess to try and draw out the rest of the infection that is believed to be higher up.

I think you need a vet.

If it is founder it needs to be treated. Either way the open wound in the foot needs to be treated.

[Dave Purves]

You are definately dealing with an abcess. Laminitis can cause abcessing, as the laminae are torn, and pressure is put on the sole by the coffin bone, however, I doubt you are dealing with laminitis. Your horse has had plenty of time to adjust to it's new surroundings, and you more than likely would've seen some lameness before the abcess, if laminitis were presenting itself. Not to say that 100% sure your horse doesn't have laminitis, I can't say that cause I can't see your horse but I would bet 99%. Abcesses can happen for many reasons, too many to list. Treat the abcess and don't get too worked up about laminitis, unless the horse shows sure signs, like standing rocked back bearing weight on the heels of it's feet, increased digital pulse, heat in the foot, wanting to lay down alot. These are just a few of the signs that you should look for. Many horse owners hear, laminitis, or navicular and suddenly are panic stricken thinking that thier horse may have it. Your farrier used the hoof testers and by mere location, took an educated guess. Why he or she said laminitis I don't know. Any time a horse go's from perfectly fine to 3 legged lame you can pretty much bet that an abcess is present. Don't worry, just watch for the signs and if you need some piece of mind, call the vet, get some x-rays taken, and make sure your horse is not overweight.
good luck
Dave Purves CF :)

[Phil Armitage]

Treat the abcess and don't get too worked up about laminitis, unless the horse shows sure signs, like standing rocked back bearing weight on the heels of it's feet, increased digital pulse, heat in the foot, wanting to lay down alot. These are just a few of the signs that you should look for.

Dave, no disrespect, but I have to totaly disagree with the above statement you made. In my opinion waiting to see the symptoms you described is pretty advanced stages of Laminitis and/or Founder. Prevention is the best cure when it comes to Laminitis and Founder. Over eating and over weight is the number one cause of Laminitis, remember it is toxins in the gut that enter the blood stream that trigger the Laminie to die. Mild Laminitis can be recognized and even hoof deformaty can be noticed if it continues. Recognizeing mild lameness and the weight of your horse is a basic step in preventing major problems. Many horses could have been saved or been spared extreme suffereing if people recognized earlier signes and not waited until there horse could not walk or is in the founder stance with there hind qaurters pinned to the wall. I agree with Mike, it would be wise to call the Vet. It is possible that and hopefull that it is only an abcess. I think it is much better to error on the side of caution than to wait too long and have to deal with a much more severe problem that could destroy your horse. It is like a person ignoreing a tooth ache when it starts out as a cavity and then gets so painfull that you finaly go to the Dentist and have to have a Root Canal. If your Farrier suspects Laminitis, I recomend you call your Vet, if your Farrier is wrong then that is good news, if he/she is right then you caught it early and may be able to spare your horses life or prevent extreme pain and suffering. I speak with experience on this issue, witnessed more founder cases than I care to mention, breaks my heart everytime I see horses and there owners go throught this. I have promised my self that I will scare the hell out of a horse owner if that is what it takes to prevent a horse from foundering. They will get over it alot better than a horse will get over founder. :mad:

[GloryGirl]

Thanks again for the responses.

The horse was poulticed that last two days and is walking much better today.

The reasons I was so confused with this situation was:

a) the pain is present in only one foot
b) the farrier mentioned laminitis after appyling pressure with the hoof testers
c) after the small amount of **** appear he led me to believe that we were NOT dealing with laminitis anymore.
d) this horse is not over weight at all. She is only 2 and a half and is getting minimal extra feed on top of hay/grass because I didn't and don't want her to grow too fast. She does get farriers formula, and has been on it for the past year, because her feet were very crumbly when I first bought her.

I'm going to have the Vet out on Monday regardless of how she is tomorrow because I'm still so confused about everything.

[Dave Purves]

Phil, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to deminish the severity of laminitis. However in this particular case how could someone's first or even second thought be laminitis? The horse appeared perfectly normal the night before, and then 3 legged lame the next morning. Have you ever seen a laminitic horse act this way? I sure haven't. After the farrier searched with the hoof knife he opened the abcess and it started to drain. Does that tell you that there is at all laminitis? I just don't see it. What I do see alot of is over zelous farriers and owners diagnosing and treating laminits and navicular when it is not present. Laminitis is a terrible thing, but I see alot of owners that are petrified and overzealous about it, thus leading to other problems. The facts that she presented didn't even allude to laminitis and that is why I made the statements that I made. Of course we can't see the horse but from the information she gave us, what makes you think it was laminitis? Her farrier even changed his mind after finding the abcess. On these boards we tend to go a little overboard in our suggestions and advice always trying to cover all the bases and leaving no stone unturned. And that is great, but in this case, why try and scare an owner into believing something that is just not likely. I never said for sure it wasn't laminitis, but it is highly doubtful. And I also said if she wanted some peice of mind to call the vet and get some x-rays taken.
Dave Purves CF :)

[GloryGirl]

Phil and Dave - I appreciate both your opinions. I do understand where each of you are coming from.

I have another horse at home that had to be retired early due to navicular so Dave was correct in that when I heard Laminitis my heart leapt. A million things ran through my mind at that moment.

I want to do whats right by my filly but I don't have the resources to pay for x-rays that I don't really need. If I had a the money I'd get them done regardless just for my own piece of mind. I am praying that she continues to improve daily as she has been with the soaking and poulticing, but if for any reason I'm in doubt the vet will be out ASAP on Monday.

Thanks again.

[Phil Armitage]

I understand what your saying Dave. I have seen horses go three legged lame and we thought the horse only abcessed including the Vet. and then it turned out to be laminitis. Many times laminitis can be worse in one foot than the other and appear to be just and abcess. I have also seen situations where horses were off and Vets diagnose the problem higher in the limb and turn out to be Laminitis. Not only does a horse owner need to get a Vet involved but they also need to find a Vet. that knows horses. I think this owner gets the idea and is on the right track. I wish more horse owners were as careing and observant has her.

[jackiedin]

Dear Phil,

I am not a farrier but have read through this discussion with interest, as you have helped me with my Sinker pony only the other day on here. But there is something you have written which is both good and bad, you say you :eek: scare the hell out of your owners and that they will get over it quicker than the pony, :confused: well I believe my farrier has been to the same school as you. He had been my pony's farrier before I got her and knew of her history, and would comment about the way I kept her and "if she gets another bad bought of Lami it will be her last" was he's way of warning me to keep and eye on her, however this has a negative effect, for everytime she was unsound or was down for longer than usual I could no longer see straight and believed that I had effectively Killed her, and the vet was called each and everytime only to be told she was fine. However through all of this and a strict regime of feeding etc. she still went down with it, and is now a Sinker. And nothing I could of done would have stopped this as they believe it is Pre Cushings, diabetes or metabolic. So I agree you need to be on the owners back, but be a bit gentle because I know what it feels like and have beaten myself up for long enough.

Jackie :D

[Katy Watts]

However through all of this and a strict regime of feeding etc. she still went down with it, and is now a Sinker. And nothing I could of done would have stopped this as they believe it is Pre Cushings, diabetes or metabolic.

There's lot's that can be done for metabolically induced laminitis. There are many chronically laminitic horses being returned to soundness and full work if the diet is properly controlled. This means only feeding hay and feeds tested for NSC and keeping it below 10-12% NSC, and strictly controlly acess to grass.
I have a Cushings mare who foundered 3 times, and she's now 19 YO, in full work, looking great, and completely sound. This work's.
Katy
www.safergrass.org

[jackiedin]

:o I only meant that at the time of her Sinking, we had no idea that she was hiding such a dreadful disease and was feeding according to food induced laminitis, now that we are getting a clearer picture we can do something with her diet and hopefully she too will go on until she is at least 19 and remain painfree. :rolleyes:
Jackie