Licensing & Regulation

[cowboy_bc]

Hi all,

Just for the record I'm totally opposed to any kind of licensing of farriers by government or association. I do think the training / apprentice system or lack of is at best poor. Having been through a government controlled apprenticship I would like to see that for farriery.

I have been reading the **** on the british sites where they are state licensed and they are speaking of.

control of farriery by vets
criminal checks of farriers and apprentices
checking of farrier standards by farrier inspectors
recertification every so many years

Anybody see a liittle bit too much big brother? The scary thing is that some of these bone heads are actually for it?

http://www.gossiping.net/phpBB2/vie...um=farriergiles

http://www.ukhsu.com/forum/

Kevin

[George Geist]

Kevin,
Could you talk a little more about the government controlled apprenticeship you were invoved in? To the best of my knowledge we have no such thing in the US (outside of military) and I for one would like to know how that worked.
George

[David Hayne]

Thanks for the info on the UK site.....very informative......

In my farriery business I belong to, two organizations the AFA and the NSFA....I also subscribe to a number of farriery magazines etc..I go to clinics plus read as often as I can on this and other sites for my personal education that aids me in my business....

It annoys me that someone can take a two day course and become a trimmer of hooves from someone who studied from someone who says shoeing is evil.....an their courses are legal.

Most of the Barefoot Movement is based on Steel is Bad Theory , and us farriers are being used in their marketing sell. Most of the BF sites also say feeding mixed grains etc..etc.. but never do I see Feed Companies standing up an defending their feed product....etc.....harder to grow your own grain I guess.

I see inexperinced horse people trying to trim their own hooves because someone tells them that anyone can do it....I seen cases and have been called in to aid the lame horses from " ****** Humans" listening to someone who copies the Strasser Trim.....to bad horses could not sue their owners.

In my area you have to belong to a Horse Association in order to Show and also for education and protection (insurance ). I believe maybe that anyone who trims or shoes a horse should belong to a Farrier Association in order to work in that Province.....at least the horse owners would know that their farrier is being somewhat educated and being judged by their fellow farriers, while attending clinics or such.

In my Farrier Oganization when I trim or shoe a horse in front of these farriers I indeed am testing myself and my skill level....Plus or I should say the big Plus would be to keep up my skill so to prevent something as scary as a law suit. If any farrier gets called into a court of law we would first have to prove that we are Quailfied....I can hear the lawyer now....are you a member of a farrier organization....my answer is YES....to all you farriers out there just think what questions that lawyer could throw at you if the answer is NO I AM Not a Member of anything.

The reason I write is in that other farrier forum I read about the Strasseur court case and it also can happen to us.....I applaud the horse owner for takening this matter to court....because causing harm to a horse is very WRONG....we need to stay educated in all a farriery practice ...including covering are ARSE'S...in a court of law.

We need to license our dogs but not our horses....humans cannot learn to trim a horse in two days...I have been studing since 1987 and I am still at it...this is why I am still a full time farrier......speaking up for the horse.

surrounded by two day lame your horse clinics,

watch your back,

David

[cowboy_bc]

Kevin,
Could you talk a little more about the government controlled apprenticeship you were invoved in? To the best of my knowledge we have no such thing in the US (outside of military) and I for one would like to know how that worked.
George

Hi all,

At one time I was a professional apprentice and I do have an HD lic, inter provincial, refrigeration lic, and welding. Up here you find an apprenticship which usually means you have to work as a grunt before an employer will apprentice you. Once you start you work at 60% of JM wage and go to school every year but the good news is you can collect UI while there. I was lucky and got my full wage. Next year you get 70% and so on. Anyway farriery needs a better apprenticeship system even if say The AFA had an online or course work through the mail and you worked toward the day you stand for certification.

Kevin

[tbloomer]

(deletia) oklahoma state horseshoeing school a very credulous school. (deletia)

Really? I hope that was a typo! :)

[George Geist]

Kevin,
Sounds good, I like the idea. I know Canada invests a lot more in such things than the US does for some reason. Do they make this available for horseshoeing too? I dont know what it's called in English speaking Canada but in Quebec there was a thing called CJAP? I think. This provided a lot of trade type education to people as I remember it. Good programs, if horseshoeing isn't included it should be.

Josh,
You say you would like to see a mandatory certification law. Good, me too.
Now question is how can something like this ever be implemented without it being a requirement for some kind of licensing?
George

[Phil Armitage]

Kevin,
Could you talk a little more about the government controlled apprenticeship you were invoved in? To the best of my knowledge we have no such thing in the US (outside of military) and I for one would like to know how that worked.
George

Civil Service has apprenticeship and journeymen programs. The military and civil service is where most civilians come up with all there terms like apprenticeship, journeymen and masters. Shipyards, Aircraft Maintenance and Civel Engeneering are some examples. There is a direct parrellel to current horseshoeing practices that come from the military (government).

[George Geist]

Phil,
Those terms are from the medieval craft guild system. This system evolved into trade unions in the 19th century who still use those terms. Civil service was established by people known as progressives. Best known of them was Teddy Roosevelt mostly in the years after the turn of the century. Civil Service was brought about for jobs in the public sector. It was necessary to bring about some fairness in employment and to take away some power from corrupt political machines. In spite of many politicians efforts to dismantle it, It is still largely intact in most states. Granted I don't know about every single job out there, but most civil service things I've seen just require the taking of a test as a major criteria for hiring. I dont recall seeing apprentices, journeymen, and masters anywhere in civil service. Not even in horseshoers hired under that system. Where have you seen this in the public sector?
Shipyards, Aircraft maintenance and so forth are private industries so I doubt they would have that without their being unionized.

You are correct about most of how horseshoeing is done being learned from the military. It was they who developed our sizing system 00, 0, 1, etc. This ensured that they would always have a shoe to fit every horse. Worked well, thats why we still do it.
George

[Rick Burten]

I am a member of the afa and hold a certification from oklahoma state horseshoeing school a very credulous school.
What exactly is that certification and how does one go about attaining it? Have you stood for the AFA certifications? If so, what has, thus far, been the outcome? If not, why not?
i beleive i am up to par on my education but still learn everyday. I think that farriers would gain alot by attending a farrier school where there are a number of instructors who can share their knowledge and where someone would learn anatomy inside and out.
What does the number of instructors have to do with it?(as in how do you know that the instructors know anything about anything/) What were the qualifications required by the school, prior to the hiring, of the instructor?
How is the quality of the education received at any given school, quantified so that a prospective student can be assured that s/he will be receiving a proper education? Is it not a bit disingenuous for a school, with no affilliation or accountability to anyone/group , to be issuing credentials to those who attend that school? How does that credential assure the public that that individual is actually qualified to sharpen a knife, let alone trim and/or shoe a horse?
I see alot of certified farriers who apprenticed not having the proper understanding of the anatomy and function of the horse. anyone can learn enough from apprenticing to pass a test but are you getting the hands on experience?
You're kidding, right? Do you think that you get more hands on experience at some school than you will get working with a mentor? Do you think that the exposure to anatomy and biomechanics you receive at a school will be enough for you or that you will have to expand that knowledge once you have left school and are out in the real world?
At the school i attended, everyday there were a number of horses that had lameness problems and we were able to learn how to treat them.
How do you know that what you were being taught was correct?
how many lameness cases will u see aprenticing under someone working only on their client horses? Just a thought.
I suppose that that will be a function of the type of practice the mentor has. And, do you really believe that a student at a school is really ready to appreciate and understand how to work on horses with lameness issues? It has been my experience that , generally speaking, a recent graduate from a shoeing school9credentialed or not], has just about enough skill and knowledge to become a somewhat useful apprentice. And, I think you will find that several of the other farriers who frequent these forums feel the same way.
I think it wouldn't hurt to require that a farrier be certified but they need to be educated.
Non Sequitur.

[tbloomer]

Here is an interesting story.

A few years ago I was looking for a farrier to refer customers to when I could not work them into my schedule. Since I do not make weekend or evening appointments, I found this part time fellow who had recently graduated from a 16 week horseshoeing course. We talked on the phone a few times. He told me that he had passed his BWFA "Journeyman I" test upon graduation.

Over the past 3 years I have referred about 20 horses to this guy. I followed up on my referrals, no complaints. Several people have called me back and thanked me. Eventually I happened to see this guys work. It looked like pretty decent professional quality farrier work. The guy only cold shoes, but his work is very high quality.

Last year I met another guy that graduated from the same 16 week course at the same school. He said he also passed the BWFA "Journeyman I" test upon graduation. Now this guy called me for advice. Seems that he had never nailed on a set of aluminum shoes before, and he wanted to know how to do aluminum shoes. Well I offered to take this guy on the road when I was shoeing some hunters . . . he was too busy taking care of his own customers to find time to spend a day with me. I referred him to some guys with a lot more experience . . . heard that he did spend time with a few of them. Even heard that he went to another farrier school for continuing education. I admire him for recognizing his need for more education and doing something about it.

Two people go to the same school for the same amount of time. Both passed the same test. Both started farrier businesses fresh out of school. One of them is struggling to grasp the basics and has lost several customers due to questions of competancy. The other is turning work away and has established an excellent reputation. NEITHER of them can blame the school or give credit to the school for their success or failure.

Everyone learns differently. Everyone has a different learning curve. Everyone retains a different amount of information when it is presented. I don't think that it is fair to judge a persons ability by the amount of time they spent in school or apprenticing. I think that it is even less fair to think that just because you have been doing something for 30 years, somebody with superior talent, ambition, and intiligence should not be able to leapfrog past you in a very short period of time.

I've been playing the guitar for 39 years. I have a natural musical talent and suffer from the "curse" of perfect pitch. I've formally studied Jazz, Blues, and Classical guitar under some top musicians. I play well enough to make a living in clubs and bars, but not well enough to make a good living. I've met some teenagers who have been playing for 2 years that totally blow me away with their talent and skill. Even when I was practicing 4 hours a day and playing gigs on weekends, back when I was "hot" on the fingerboard, I couldn't touch these kids.

In our lives we all go through periods of rapid learning, the wereach a plateau where we don't learn anything new. To get beyond that plateau, sometimes it takes a huge effort. Sometimes it just takes an epiphony.

[Mike Ferrara]

All true, Tom.

Some people have more natural talent than others and some who lack the natural ability make up for it by applying themselves that much harder.

Over the years I've dealt with lots of different people in several different lines of work and I've seen very little correlation between ability and formal training or education. There are lots of *****s running around with some pretty impressive sheep skin and lots of really skilled people with no credentials at all and everything inbetween.

That's not to say that training or education isn't useful because it obviously is but it's often not the determining factor. It's another tool but lousy work can be done even with a good tool.

[Phil Armitage]

Phil,
Those terms are from the medieval craft guild system. This system evolved into trade unions in the 19th century who still use those terms. Civil service was established by people known as progressives. Best known of them was Teddy Roosevelt mostly in the years after the turn of the century. Civil Service was brought about for jobs in the public sector. It was necessary to bring about some fairness in employment and to take away some power from corrupt political machines. In spite of many politicians efforts to dismantle it, It is still largely intact in most states. Granted I don't know about every single job out there, but most civil service things I've seen just require the taking of a test as a major criteria for hiring. I dont recall seeing apprentices, journeymen, and masters anywhere in civil service. Not even in horseshoers hired under that system. Where have you seen this in the public sector?
Shipyards, Aircraft maintenance and so forth are private industries so I doubt they would have that without their being unionized.

You are correct about most of how horseshoeing is done being learned from the military. It was they who developed our sizing system 00, 0, 1, etc. This ensured that they would always have a shoe to fit every horse. Worked well, thats why we still do it.
George

I was a Civil Service Technician for ten year with the Air National Gaurd, communications maintenance. The training and testing is very indepth and extremely difficult. Job description for my job includes apprentice, journeymen and master and each phase has testing and demonstrateing your ability. We have a shipyard in our area it is also a Navy yard and Marine barracks. The jobs on the yard are Civil Service posistions, they have an extensive apprenticeship program. Many of the job descriptions and pay scale are based on apprentice, journeymen and master.

[George Geist]

Phil,
If the civilian jobs on military bases that you speak of were non-union jobs and still using union terms such as that, then this is the first I'm hearing of such a thing.
George

[josh burris]

to answer your questions? the number of instructors is good because you get several useful opinions and learn a few things from each one.the instructors I learned under are all cfj farriers and all have experience atleast 25 years or better. we (students about 15) worked on about 700 horses. we learned how to build and make shoes, hot shoe, and forge clips ect..To pass the school we had a final shoeing test with afa guidelines.If you have any more questions why don't you ask them? I never said that was all the education I've had nor that it was sufficient. I have been full time stayed full time while learning also from other qualified farriers. i have atleast 250 horses in a six week cycle. do i have more to learn? yes i do but i have never questioned your qualifications or how do you know if what you were taught was correct, have I?


What exactly is that certification and how does one go about attaining it? Have you stood for the AFA certifications? If so, what has, thus far, been the outcome? If not, why not?

What does the number of instructors have to do with it?(as in how do you know that the instructors know anything about anything/) What were the qualifications required by the school, prior to the hiring, of the instructor?
How is the quality of the education received at any given school, quantified so that a prospective student can be assured that s/he will be receiving a proper education? Is it not a bit disingenuous for a school, with no affilliation or accountability to anyone/group , to be issuing credentials to those who attend that school? How does that credential assure the public that that individual is actually qualified to sharpen a knife, let alone trim and/or shoe a horse?

You're kidding, right? Do you think that you get more hands on experience at some school than you will get working with a mentor? Do you think that the exposure to anatomy and biomechanics you receive at a school will be enough for you or that you will have to expand that knowledge once you have left school and are out in the real world?

How do you know that what you were being taught was correct?

I suppose that that will be a function of the type of practice the mentor has. And, do you really believe that a student at a school is really ready to appreciate and understand how to work on horses with lameness issues? It has been my experience that , generally speaking, a recent graduate from a shoeing school9credentialed or not], has just about enough skill and knowledge to become a somewhat useful apprentice. And, I think you will find that several of the other farriers who frequent these forums feel the same way.

Non Sequitur.

[Rick Burten]

to answer your questions? the number of instructors is good because you get several useful opinions and learn a few things from each one.
Opinions are like another part of the human anatomy, everyone has one......
How do you determine whether or not the opinion(s) given by others is/are infact, useful. That said, I too have learned something from most everyone I have have had either the fortune or misfortune of meeting or interacting with.Many times, what I have learned, is to not do something.

And, you still have not answered the questions regarding what certification you received from the school, and whether or not you have stood for any of the AFA certifications, and if not, why not, and if so, what the outcome has been.
the instructors I learned under are all cfj farriers and all have experience atleast 25 years or better.
Time in service does not necessarily equate with skill, knowledge or ability. The attainment of the CJF appellation is a worthy and commendable thing, but it is not the " do all, end all". Rather, it is what one does from that day forth, which will determine, in great measure, whether the CJF credential is truely meaningful to that individual, or merely the ghost of Christmas past.
we (students about 15) worked on about 700 horses.
Works out to about 47 horses/student. How many weeks did you attend this school?
we learned how to build and make shoes, hot shoe, and forge clips ect..To pass the school we had a final shoeing test with afa guidelines.
Glad to hear that. Which AFA certification test was administered? Who "graded" the tests? How many in your class, failed? Did you also take a written final that was patterned after the AFA exams? How many of your class passed? Did you also do a shoe display that was patterned after the AFA Shoe Display? Again, how many of your classmates passed?
If you have any more questions why don't you ask them?
You brought the school into the equation. You offered input regarding the education and educators of that school. Thus, I asked and am asking, the questions of you. Besides, what makes you think that anyone at that school or any school for that matter, would offer anything but a glowing report and effusive, positive, PR about the school(s)?
I never said that was all the education I've had nor that it was sufficient.
Are you now saying that your formal farrier school education was insufficient?
I have been full time stayed full time while learning also from other qualified farriers. i have atleast 250 horses in a six week cycle. do i have more to learn? yes
When one craves knowledge like a drowning man craves air, then , real education ensues.
i have never questioned your qualifications or how do you know if what you were taught was correct, have I?
Question away, accept nothing at face value. And, I'll be among the first to tell you that the education I received at farrier school was far less than even adequate. Had I not already possessed a rudimentary knowledge of farrier science prior to attending school and had it not been for the help, understanding and other kindness' I received(and continue to receive) along the way, from other, more qualified farriers and in some instances, trainers, veterinarians, and other horsemen and women, then the damage I inflicted on horses in the early days of my career would have been far greater than it was.

"Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement"

"Kids in the back seat cause accidents. Accidents in the back seat cause kids!"

[Phil Armitage]

Phil,
If the civilian jobs on military bases that you speak of were non-union jobs and still using union terms such as that, then this is the first I'm hearing of such a thing.
George

First time for everything George. :)

I had the option of belonging to the union or not. The union protected civil service employees from being treated as a military member. Where I worked you could have a military member as a supervisor and that could get pretty sticky sometimes. We had job descriptions and our pay is based on the job description. Military supervisors tend to think your there to do whatever they wanted you to do. I did not need the union to stick up for me, I was pretty up on my job description and the rules. Knowledge is power.

[landon91]

I am a new member of the AFA and a recent graduate of a shoeing school. I am now Apprenticing with a couple of other guys.

I have a problom with the whole Licensing and even the AFA certification. I may be wrong and have my facts mixed up that is why and I am asking that if i am wrong i would like to be told and told why.

My problom is that the afa certification there is a set standard on how you shoe the horse to pass certification. I have a problom with that because all horses can not be shoed to this set standard so how is it justified when someone could practice on shoeing a horse to the standards set by the AFA and pass, but can not shoe a horse with a specific problom. That is hard for me to see the justification in this standard.

If I am wrong in my understanding I would like to know and like know why

Thank you
Landon

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

landon91 in gray, deletia

I am a new member of the AFA and a recent graduate of a shoeing school. I am now Apprenticing with a couple of other guys.

I have a problom with the whole Licensing and even the AFA certification. I may be wrong and have my facts mixed up that is why and I am asking that if i am wrong i would like to be told and told why.

My problom is that the afa certification there is a set standard on how you shoe the horse to pass certification. I have a problom with that because all horses can not be shoed to this set standard so how is it justified when someone could practice on shoeing a horse to the standards set by the AFA and pass, but can not shoe a horse with a specific problom. That is hard for me to see the justification in this standard.

The AFA's model is arbitrary and certainly won't fit all horses. In reality, it's a testing standard, not a shoeing standard, and it's designed to set and maintain objective parameters for the practical portions of the AFA's tests. In the interest of fairness, the practicals are designed to be objectively, not subjectively, quantified - and objective quantification of a shoeing job would be extremely difficult to achieve without relatively rigid, inflexible, criteria.

Put another way, the AFA's tests are designed to be as fair as possible to the testee, not best for the horse. :)

Welcome aboard.

[landon91]

Tom thank you very much for your information it was very helpful.

Landon

[George Geist]

Landon,
Mr Stovall correctly pointed out what's what with certification (or at least as is supposed to be anyway) The issue of licensing is non-existent.

With the exception of working on racetracks, this trade requires no licensing of any kind in this country.
George