Convention Updates [Archive] - The Farrier & Hoofcare Resource Center Forums

Rick Burten

02-27-2006, 06:23 PM

What was the rationale and reasons given for the large increase in dues?
I too would like to know what are we going to get for the 42.85% increase?

Since Bryan replied earlier in this thread, perhaps he can tell us who made this proposal to the board of directors, why the membership was not first informed of this impending action, why the general membership's input was not first sought, and what the vote count (for and against) was at the BOD meeting. I would also like to know if the BOD vote was done by a) show of hands, b) voice acclaimation or c) role call vote of the BOD members. Also, did this subject come up at the General Meeting, and if so, was there much discussion on the subject? Approximately how many members attended the general meeting?

Since both John and Dave read these forums, perhaps they would like to respond and comment on this, now that they are in leadership positions. Additionally, I would like to know and have them declare here on this forum where each of them stands on the issue.

Perhaps a survey of the general membership should be undertaken? What will happen if said survey were to show a majority of the membership was opposed to the dues increase? Will the new leadership be as vocal and visable in getting this potentially damaging action reversed as they were on the subject of Licensing and Registration.

Given John's avowed abhorance of taxes, and this dues increase is nothing more than a tax increase, I would hope that he will take a direct leadership position in working to reverse this action.

Phil Armitage

02-27-2006, 07:16 PM

The increase in dues by the previous leadership looks like a nice gift to the new leadership. I bet they were laughing when they thought of that. Just another example of childish BS if you ask me. Don't farriers also raise prices when they want to clean house?

Nice timeing boys. I bet it never crossed there minds. :rolleyes:

Gary Hill

02-27-2006, 07:57 PM

I was really thinking about rejoining and getting some of that insurance to go along with what I already have but now they have killed it to ?

Phantom Farrier

02-27-2006, 09:59 PM

T.N. Trosin

02-27-2006, 11:34 PM

I was really thinking about rejoining and getting some of that insurance to go along with what I already have but now they have killed it to ?

We didn't kill the insurance, it died on it's own. I have to hand this to Jeff he did try to make a go of the insurance, but try as he might he couldn't get enough people to join the program to reach the insurance company's minimum number and we had used all but one of the extentions, which I would have been for using the last one had there been any increase since the mid-year meeting. Unfortunatly the number held at 60. As for those 60 they have insurance at the moment but once their current policies expire the insurance will not be offered as a group policy again.

T.N. Trosin

02-27-2006, 11:37 PM

The increase in dues by the previous leadership looks like a nice gift to the new leadership. I bet they were laughing when they thought of that. Just another example of childish BS if you ask me. Don't farriers also raise prices when they want to clean house?

Considering that when this passed the election ballots hadn't been counted yet, so you figure if Mike had won, he would have to deal with it.

Rick Burten

02-27-2006, 11:54 PM

Rick,

The dues increase was part of the package that was presented to the BOD from the Finance Committee. At this point in time I would'nt care to second guess that Committee's reason for doing so. What I will do is try to contact someone on that committee and get some facts so we can have an informed discussion on the issue.

Phantom :)

John,

Last I knew, I was on that committee, and I never heard one word about it. I don't know if I'm still on that committee or not, but thats sorta moot right now isn't it? For the record, had I been informed and/or consulted, I would have argued against it at that level, and would have suggested something more moderate/reasonable, say in the range of $10.00/person. And then only if the increase could be truely justified to me.

My understanding is that the original dues increase was going to be from $105.oo to $175.00, but the board was not willing to go along with that, but opted instead to go to with $150.00. And, I'd like to hear the thinking behind that number.

And, if a dues increase was in the offing, should that not first have been presented to the board as a separate issue to be discussed and voted on, rather than as basically a "done deal" on which the budget was based?

And, when does this dues increase take effect?

Jack said that they said it takes $144.00/person to maintain us. I'd like to know what process was undertaken to arrive at that number. I'd also know why it has taken so long to discover how much it supposedly costs to maintain us. Surely, a dues increase, spread over several years would have been more palatable to the membership. If they were even consulted at all.

Well John, you and others seem to feel that conspiracy runs rampant in the leadership of the AFA, perhaps now you'll have an issue to prove your contention.

The bigger question is whether or not the membership(and once they have had time to digest what happened, the BOD) will stand still for this and what repercussions it will have.

Ben-Sturman

02-28-2006, 12:52 AM

Again, what the h e double hockey sticks am I going to get for this increase? Sounds like nothing since this is what they feel it takes to maintain us. If that's the case, I am thinking I won't be sending my dues.

Another question: Why was this not at least presented in some way to the general membership for consideration to see what the reaction would have been? If this doesn't drop the membership numbers I will be very surprised. So many people just here on these boards have questioned the dues at the level they were, with that big of an increase, watch for a small avalanche in the falling membership numbers.

I'm sure this was all done legally by the rules and laws of the club, but it sure stinks to high heaven to get this as a surprise, no warning shot or anything. I really don't like this type of surprise. With all the people that may leave, the $144.00 may change in how much it takes to maintain the few members that may be left. After the ********** that we went through this summer, this just really *************. Did I mention that I don't like surpises like increased dues without previous notice that it was comming.

John, I hope you or someone can explain this and make some sense of it, The AFA doesn't need to lose anymore people, even if it's just a few.

T.N. Trosin

02-28-2006, 01:29 AM

Again, what the h e double hockey sticks am I going to get for this increase? Sounds like nothing since this is what they feel it takes to maintain us. If that's the case, I am thinking I won't be sending my dues.

Ok lets all take a breath here, as far as I know (and I will varify this tommrow) the dues increase doesn't begin until the new fiscal year which is June 1, 2006. If I am wrong about this I will correct it immediatly. If this is indeed the case perhaps something can be done, but I'll leave that to John.

Another question: Why was this not at least presented in some way to the general membership for consideration to see what the reaction would have been? If this doesn't drop the membership numbers I will be very surprised. So many people just here on these boards have questioned the dues at the level they were, with that big of an increase, watch for a small avalanche in the falling membership numbers.

I can't say that I disagree with you there Ben, but by the same token I can't remember the last time I gave notice to a client that I was considering a price increase. The fact that I was? Yes. That I was considering to do so? No.
At any rate this is a dramatic increase, but it beats the heck out of 125 now ten dollars more next year and ten more a year later (ad nasaum). But before you complain to much more I ask those of you who have been shoeing for ten years or more to consider how much you have gone up since the time you were truly out on your own and what your price increase structure has been? Have you increased your prices 5% in a year and then raised it another 8% a year later? I have (what can I say I needed a new truck).

Phantom Farrier

02-28-2006, 07:37 AM

John,

Last I knew, I was on that committee, and I never heard one word about it. I don't know if I'm still on that committee or not, but thats sorta moot right now isn't it? For the record, had I been informed and/or consulted, I would have argued against it at that level, and would have suggested something more moderate/reasonable, say in the range of $10.00/person. And then only if the increase could be truely justified to me.

.
Rick,

Glad I didn't have to go far to find a Finance Committeeman and since you are on the Finance Committee, you are in the best position to explain to the members on this forum the near and long range financial needs and commitments of the AFA and how we might best achieve those goals. Maybe you have the list of other committee people so members can speak with them directly about their concerns and get the facts they are entitled to.

It would be foolish of me to second guess the Finance Committee and those like yourself who have first hand knowledge and the experience of AFA finance.

Phantom :)

tbloomer

02-28-2006, 08:00 AM

My wife just signed me up for a $50k Prudential life insurance policy yesterday. The annual premium is $104/year.

My annual subscription to the American Farriers Journal is $47.95. However, a three year subscription is only $109.95, thus reducing the annual cost to $36.65. Although the PF Mag. has improved dramatically over the past year, it's content pales in comparison to the AFJ.

The cost of the AFA convention for members is about $100 less than the cost of the IHCS. However, I believe that the relative value of the IHCS is higher than the AFA convention. Some of the folks who participate in the trade show also believe that they get better exposure at the IHCS, and have therefore decided not to participate in the AFA convention trade show.

As a business person making a business decision about where to spend my continuing education dollars, how should I be evaluating my options? With a subscription to the AFJ and a ticket to the IHCS I have access to all of the cutting edge research, products, and a "network of farriers" that is totally independent of any organized political "movement" (real or imagined.)

As an educational organization, what content and substance does the AFA provide that cannot be found elsewhere? I see the farrier industry providing multiple sources of independent continuing education. I see the AFA falling behind in it's ability to function as a competative educational resource. What can the AFA do to leapfrog over their "independent competition" and put themselves on the leading edge of farrier education? Will the AFA remain mired in political turmoil until it shrinks away to nothing?

The times, they are changin' . . . will the AFA keep up?

reillyshoe

02-28-2006, 08:25 AM

well stated Tom, I agree with your thinking.

Ronald E. Kramedjian

02-28-2006, 08:41 AM

Last I knew, I was on that committee, and I never heard one word about it. I don't know if I'm still on that committee or not, but thats sorta moot right now isn't it? For the record, had I been informed and/or consulted, I would have argued against it at that level, and would have suggested something more moderate/reasonable, say in the range of $10.00/person. And then only if the increase could be truely justified to me.Rick,

How did a finance package get passed out of committee without everyone on the committee seeing and voting about it? Where are the minutes of of the finance committee meetings?

Rick Burten

02-28-2006, 08:49 AM

Rick,

Glad I didn't have to go far to find a Finance Committeeman and since you are on the Finance Committee, you are in the best position to explain to the members on this forum the near and long range financial needs and commitments of the AFA and how we might best achieve those goals. Maybe you have the list of other committee people so members can speak with them directly about their concerns and get the facts they are entitled to.

It would be foolish of me to second guess the Finance Committee and those like yourself who have first hand knowledge and the experience of AFA finance.

Phantom :)
John,

Perhaps you misread what I wrote?

If I am still on the Finance committee(and of that I am not sure), and if I was on the finance committee during the time when the dues increase was being discussed, then I was kept totally out of the loop. I received no information about either the proposed dues increase or the proposed overall budget.

So, I am NOT in any position, let alone the best position "to explain to the members on this forum the near and long range financial needs and commitments of the AFA and how we might acheive those goals."

And, no, I don't have a list of the other committee members, other than to tell you that the committee chair was Michael Joshua. I don't know if he is still the chair or if Dave appointed someone new.

And, John, since you are now the Treasurer, ultimately it is now your responsibility to ferret out the answers to the questions and to field the concerns of the membership. Regardless of what the finance committee proposes, it is the fiduciary responsibility of the Treasurer and, ultimately, the BOD, to properly manage, maintain and explain the financial needs and requirements of the AFA.

Now, here's a couple of questions for you.
1. Since the budget presented to the BOD was, apparently based on a dues structure/income based on $175.00/member, and the actual increase in dues was to $150.00, how are you, as Treasurer, going to cover the $75,000.00 shortfall(based on a membership base of 3000 +/- x $25.00(the amount of decrease between what was presented and what was approved). If we gaze into the crystal ball and factor in the number of non-renewals(and we should be able to get a reasonable number based on past years statistics) and the possible loss of new members due to the now "hefty" cost of dues(especially for farriers just beginning their careers), then the shortfall could well exceed $85,000.00 - $100,000.00

2. Since the budget that was presented to the board of directors for approval was not ammended to reflect the decrease in dues revenue and how and where that would impact the budget, did the BOD actually pass a legal budget? Afterall, they voted on a budget that no longer had any semblence of accuracy because it was based on an income figure that cannot be met.

3. Since the new budget does not take effect until 01July2006, there is a window of opportunity and a mechanism(Article VI, Section 10 of the AFA Bylaws) to do at least two things. A). Lower(or eliminate) the dues increase even more, and B). Draw up and pass a new budget that accurately reflects the true economics involved.
The question is, will the leadership show the very leadership it claims it is bringing to the AFA, and correct these problems?

George Geist

02-28-2006, 09:30 AM

Hey guys,
A few weeks ago on the other thread you all rallied behind Mr.Stovall like a lynch mob demanding to see financial statements from the JHU.

Whats fair is fair. Are you going to do that to the AFA now?
George

Gary_Miller

02-28-2006, 09:50 AM

As a former AFA member who had not yet renewed his dues do to funding constrants. I don't think I will be renewing anytime soon at $150.

Like Tom I think I can get more bang for my education dollar else where. So I will be renewing my AFJ Subcription and spending my education money on other items.

Gary

tbloomer

02-28-2006, 12:33 PM

well stated Tom, I agree with your thinking.

Are you agreeing with my questions? I'm just asking questions out of curiosity. It's nice to know that others share my curiosity. :)

tbloomer

02-28-2006, 12:39 PM

Hey guys,
A few weeks ago on the other thread you all rallied behind Mr.Stovall like a lynch mob demanding to see financial statements from the JHU.
George

Gosh DANGIT! Stovall had a lynch mob party and I MISSED all the fun??!!! Would somebody please point me to this thread so that I can go entertain myself?

Thanks,

Phantom Farrier

02-28-2006, 02:13 PM

John,

Perhaps you misread what I wrote?

If I am still on the Finance committee(and of that I am not sure), and if I was on the finance committee during the time when the dues increase was being discussed, then I was kept totally out of the loop. I received no information about either the proposed dues increase or the proposed overall budget.

So, I am NOT in any position, let alone the best position "to explain to the members on this forum the near and long range financial needs and commitments of the AFA and how we might acheive those goals."

And, no, I don't have a list of the other committee members, other than to tell you that the committee chair was Michael Joshua. I don't know if he is still the chair or if Dave appointed someone new.

It may sound like a broken record but the Treasurer does not plan the budget. That is clearly your committee - the Finance Committee. I will not second guess.

And, John, since you are now the Treasurer, ultimately it is now your responsibility to ferret out the answers to the questions and to field the concerns of the membership. Regardless of what the finance committee proposes, it is the fiduciary responsibility of the Treasurer and, ultimately, the BOD, to properly manage, maintain and explain the financial needs and requirements of the AFA.

As an elected officer it is my job to field questions and concerns from the membership and I promise you and others that I will do that to the best of my ability. I will never be MIA. Please feel free to call or e-mail me with your concerns. My e-mail is phantomfarrier@aol.com and my phone is 978-430-1757.
As far as fiduciary responsibility of the Treasurer, I would refer to the by-laws "duties of the Treasurer". The financial requirements and needs of the Association clearly fall under the responsibility of your committee.

Now, here's a couple of questions for you.
1. Since the budget presented to the BOD was, apparently based on a dues structure/income based on $175.00/member, and the actual increase in dues was to $150.00, how are you, as Treasurer, going to cover the $75,000.00 shortfall(based on a membership base of 3000 +/- x $25.00(the amount of decrease between what was presented and what was approved). If we gaze into the crystal ball and factor in the number of non-renewals(and we should be able to get a reasonable number based on past years statistics) and the possible loss of new members due to the now "hefty" cost of dues(especially for farriers just beginning their careers), then the shortfall could well exceed $85,000.00 - $100,000.00

2. Since the budget that was presented to the board of directors for approval was not ammended to reflect the decrease in dues revenue and how and where that would impact the budget, did the BOD actually pass a legal budget? Afterall, they voted on a budget that no longer had any semblence of accuracy because it was based on an income figure that cannot be met.

3. Since the new budget does not take effect until 01July2006, there is a window of opportunity and a mechanism(Article VI, Section 10 of the AFA Bylaws) to do at least two things. A). Lower(or eliminate) the dues increase even more, and B). Draw up and pass a new budget that accurately reflects the true economics involved.
The question is, will the leadership show the very leadership it claims it is bringing to the AFA, and correct these problems?

Rick,
I honestly don't have the answer to these questions but I will consult with Michael Joshua and the Parliamentarian and get back to you with the facts so we can continue the discussion on a more informed basis.

Phantom :)

Rick Burten

02-28-2006, 04:18 PM

It may sound like a broken record but the Treasurer does not plan the budget. That is clearly your committee - the Finance Committee. I will not second guess.
John,
The bylaws do not specifically spell out the responsibilities of the Finance Committee. Perhaps you can direct me to or provide me with that information, and where and when it was clearly deliniated.

Also, are you saying that as Treasurer you do not have any input in the budget proposal process? And that you should not have such input?

Are you aware that in the most recent edition of the AFA Membership Directory(2004-2005), in the section that lists all the Standing Committees and the committee Chair of each, along with a brief description of the purpose of that committee, there is absolutely nothing written to describe what the Finance Committee does? Why do you suppose that is? I note for the record that there are several other Standing Committees whose purpose also is not spelled out. And, in those instances too, the question remains the same.
My e-mail is phantonfarrier@aol.com
That should be "phantom" not "phanton" right? :)
As far as fiduciary responsibility of the Treasurer, I would refer to the by-laws "duties of the Treasurer".
Article IV,,Section d, (3): "in general, perform all the duties incident to the office of Treasurer and such other duties assigned by the President or the Board of Directors".

Article VIII, Section 1: "The officers of the Association are responsible for maintaining a balanced budget within the resources of the Association."

Article VIII, Section 3: "A proposed budget for the coming year shall be presented to the Board of Directors by the Treasurer at the annual meeting of the Board of Directors."

Perhaps you would explain for me what "in general, perform all the duties incident to the office of Treasurer" means to you.

And, if presenting a proposed budget for the coming year to the Board of Directors does not fall under the fiduciary responsibilities of the Treasurer, then what does? To that end, if the treasurer has had no input in the budget development, how can s/he correctly fulfill the mandates of the office of Treasurer?

The financial requirements and needs of the Association clearly fall under the responsibility of your committee.
Apparently, according to the Articles and sections referenced above, you are mistaken.

Additionally, according to Article VII, Section 3: "The Executive Director.......shall assist the President in conducting the legal and fiscal matters of the Association.....".

Thus far, we have not yet learned what role our ED played in helping prepare the budget proposal. This is not meant as a derogatory comment, rather, that all the pieces of the puzzle have not yet been fit together, and we still have a situation that needs to be resolved.
Rick,
I honestly don't have the answer to these questions but I will consult with Michael Joshua and the Parliamentarian and get back to you with the facts so we can continue the discussion on a more informed basis.
Fair enough. Just so long as it doesn't take until after it will be too late to take any necessary remedial action. IOW, time is of the essence.

Rick Burten

02-28-2006, 04:22 PM

Rick,

How did a finance package get passed out of committee without everyone on the committee seeing and voting about it? Where are the minutes of of the finance committee meetings?
Ron,

Your guess is as good as mine.

reillyshoe

02-28-2006, 04:25 PM

Are you agreeing with my questions? I'm just asking questions out of curiosity.

50K life insurance + AFJ subscription = $140/yr
PF subscription + AFA membership (I'm not sure what the tangible member benefits include)= $150/yr
Good logic

I agree with your evaluation of the magazines (although I do like PF more than I thought I would), and educational alternatives are definitely out there.

By the way, I would be a bit nervous if my wife started taking out life insurance on me. You might let the dog taste your dinner for a while...

Phantom Farrier

02-28-2006, 05:59 PM

John,
The bylaws do not specifically spell out the responsibilities of the Finance Committee. Perhaps you can direct me to or provide me with that information, and where and when it was clearly deliniated.

I was anticipating you might know the mission of your own committee? No? Yes?

That should be "phantom" not "phanton" right? :)

Rick,
Thanks for pointing out the typo!

Article IV,,Section d, (3): "in general, perform all the duties incident to the office of Treasurer and such other duties assigned by the President or the Board of Directors"

Article VIII, Section 1: "The officers of the Association are responsible for maintaining a balanced budget within the resources of the Association."

Article VIII, Section 3: "A proposed budget for the coming year shall be presented to the Board of Directors by the Treasurer at the annual meeting of the Board of Directors."

Perhaps you would explain for me what "in general, perform all the duties incident to the office of Treasurer" means to you.

And, if presenting a proposed budget for the coming year to the Board of Directors does not fall under the fiduciary responsibilities of the Treasurer, then what does? To that end, if the treasurer has had no input in the budget development, how can s/he correctly fulfill the mandates of the office of Treasurer?

Did you notice Article IV, section two - Duties of the Treasurer.
"The Treasurer shall (1) collect and disburse all Association funds and maintain records as provided for subject to the supervision and control of the Board of Directors; (2) receive and give receipts for monies due and payable to the Association from any source and deposit all monies in the name of the Association in such banks, trust companies and other depositories as shall be selected by the Board of Directors; (3) in general, perform all the duties incident to the office of Treasurer and such other duties assigned by the
President or the Board of Directors; (4) shall keep a statement of the financial condition of the Association on a monthly basis; and (5) present a full report of the financial conditions of the Association at each meeting of the Board of Directors. The Treasurer may be responsible to see that all accounts are reviewed or audited annually as specified by the Board of Directors.

This was taken from the AFA website and may not be totally up to date, but represents a fairly accurate description, would you not agree?

Also, are you saying that as Treasurer you do not have any input in the budget proposal process? And that you should not have such input?

The AFA is "our" Association and as such we all have input.

Rick Burten

02-28-2006, 06:21 PM

I was anticipating you might know the mission of your own committee? No? Yes?
While I understand that the mission of the committee is to large extent, to help prepare a budget proposal, that is not done in a vacuum. And, as I have repeatedly stated, I have never once been contacted by anyone, committee chair or otherwise and asked to participate in the process. Like I also said, I don't even know if I am still on the committee or if not, when I was removed. So much for communication.
Did you notice Article IV, section two - Duties of the Treasurer.
"The Treasurer shall (1) collect and disburse all Association funds and maintain records as provided for subject to the supervision and control of the Board of Directors; (2) receive and give receipts for monies due and payable to the Association from any source and deposit all monies in the name of the Association in such banks, trust companies and other depositories as shall be selected by the Board of Directors; (3) in general, perform all the duties incident to the office of Treasurer and such other duties assigned by the
President or the Board of Directors; (4) shall keep a statement of the financial condition of the Association on a monthly basis; and (5) present a full report of the financial conditions of the Association at each meeting of the Board of Directors. The Treasurer may be responsible to see that all accounts are reviewed or audited annually as specified by the Board of Directors.
John,
Did you not read where I directly quoted from this article with regard to Section(3)? I brought it up right after I remarked on the spelling of 'Phantom".
This was taken from the AFA website and may not be totally up to date, but represents a fairly accurate description, would you not agree?
In conjunction with the other sections of the bylaws that I referenced, Yes, I agree.
However, you have still not answered my question regarding what section (3) means. To wit: what do you interpret " in general, perform all duties incident to the office of Treasurer"to mean?
The AFA is "our" Association and as such we all have input.
That is definately NOT the impression that I have gotten regarding the now approved dues increase AND subsequently erroneous budget proposal that was , IMNTBCHO, hastily (and apparently under some duress) approved by the BOD.

There is still time and a procedure to rectify this situation, but again, time is of the essence.

tbloomer

02-28-2006, 07:36 PM

By the way, I would be a bit nervous if my wife started taking out life insurance on me. You might let the dog taste your dinner for a while...

Actually she bought the policy to replace the one I had through the AFA when I dropped my membership this year. My dog almost always gets to taste my dinner. It's kind of hard to say no to him. He's bigger than me. :)

George Geist

02-28-2006, 07:56 PM

Tom,
It was on that "one horse owners thoughts about licensing" one. It got locked up and now its gone. Too bad you missed it. It got interesting for a while there.
George

beslagsmed

02-28-2006, 11:22 PM

I have e-mailed the AFA a couple times telling them they could just e-mail me or notify me of the current news letter instead of sending a hard copy to me here in Denmark. I still receive a hard copy. How much could they save if they e-mailed it out to all those with e-mail? So much for the increase.
Mikel

Derin Foor

03-01-2006, 10:58 PM

How difficult would it be for someone (John?) to post on this forum what it costs to maintain a member in the AFA for one year. That would help explain the increase in annual dues and enable the members to decide if it is justified or not. Until then I am going to raise my fees by 50% and see what happens.

Derin

C. Salmon

03-02-2006, 01:23 PM

I have to say I really enjoy reading the FJ but dollar for dollar I have learned so much more from this web site than I do from either the FJ or the AFA web site - If the membership does go to $150 they will loose me plus I am sure a lot of others, I have to question what we get for $105.00 then to increase to $150.00.

Must be the price of oil :rolleyes:

Clare

Bill Adams

03-03-2006, 12:26 AM

tbloomer

03-03-2006, 07:57 AM

Clare,
Read your purchaceing discounts, and go find a life policy for that price, hang out at an event with your eyes and ears open. Maybe even help out with an event, posibly make the association worth something for somebody else and you may find it got better for you.
Bill
Bill,

I just bought life insurance to replace my AFA policy - $1/year less.

The only AFA educational events are the annual convention and the pre-certification clinics. Usually the clinics are hosted and FUNDED by the local AFA chapters or a school.

Right now you can buy a Ford or a Chevy pretty cheap - due to the economic situation with those companies - so the Dodge discount is not such a great deal.

There are numerous non-AFA continuing education opportunities available to farriers. The competition is pretty stiff. The IHCS has already surpassed the AFA convention for attendance, content, and vendor participation. AND IT MAKES A PROFIT!!!

The AFA convention is partially funded by membership dues - especially the cost of the forging competition. Since there are only 70 participants in the forging competition, why should every member have to contribute a portion of their dues to fund a sporting event? When an AFA team member gets famous, they get paid to put on educational clinics and they get money from manufacturers to endorse products. Therefore, the funding for the AFA team should be totally provided by the competitors and the sponsors.

The educational aspect of forging competitions applies to forging competitions, not the farrier business. To be good in the fire does not require competition, just practice.

The most sought after clinicians in this industry are no longer former AFA team members and Calgary champions. The industry is focusing on biomechanics, research, and the****utic treatment modalities. The IHCS did not have ANY continuing education seminars dedicated to shoe building. Why? Because they (Lassiter & Co.) have listened to the feedback from the people who attended the IHCS in previous years. The IHCS is supplying what the farrier industry is demanding - continuing education that is directly pertinent to improving the farrier as an educated professional. The focus is cerebral, not visceral.

Those of us who have attempted to change the AFA's focus - who have attempted to assist with the modernization of the AFA - we have been spurned by the leadership. I take no pleasure in watching this organization self-destruct. However, I will not lift a finger or spend a dollar to stop it from happening. At this point, I believe that the AFA needs to be burned to the ground in order for it to rise from the ashes and become something great.

T.N. Trosin

03-03-2006, 10:29 AM

Bill,

I just bought life insurance to replace my AFA policy - $1/year less.

Judging by fhfgd post I would have ER insurance as well. Welcome to the "I survived in spite of myself" club.

Those of us who have attempted to change the AFA's focus - who have attempted to assist with the modernization of the AFA - we have been spurned by the leadership. I take no pleasure in watching this organization self-destruct. However, I will not lift a finger or spend a dollar to stop it from happening. At this point, I believe that the AFA needs to be burned to the ground in order for it to rise from the ashes and become something great.

Well you were going to quit if Dave didn't become president, now your going to quit anyway. Ok Bloomer, see ya down the road.
I'm sorry to disagree with you Tom but I do think you get some sort of satisfaction from all this. But don't count the AFA dead yet. I'm still around, because I beleive that something good is going to come from all of this. Though it is going to sound "eleatist", the AFA is more to me than the association it'self, and maybe it's not an association for everybody. Perhaps we are indeed trying to force round pegs in square holes and it isn't working.
Maybe we are at the core of the association, the pepole who renew no matter who is in charge, or what the dues structure is, a bunch of hammerheads in which case so be it. We are the ones who are going to pay the associations way. Perhaps the AFA has inadvertently become more about comradary than education and we just haven't reailzed it yet.

Thanks for making me think this morning Tommy.

Phantom Farrier

03-03-2006, 12:43 PM

Gary_Miller

03-03-2006, 12:58 PM

But don't count the AFA dead yet.
Not yet but it looks lilke its starting to spirol down.
Especally when there is a price increase and one of the members of the committee who is suppose to be making the dicission knows nothing of what happened. A committee not functioning properly is a sign of an organization in array.

I'm still around, because I beleive that something good is going to come from all of this.
What good can come from a disorganized organization?

Though it is going to sound "eleatist", the AFA is more to me than the association it'self,
If its not an association what is it?
What currently is the the association do for you and your buisness?
What has it done in the past for you and your buisness?
What are you doing to make the association better? Instead of just paying your dues.
Do you think the association really cares about you, knows who you are and is looking out for your interests? If so how.

Perhaps we are indeed trying to force round pegs in square holes and it isn't working.
What do you mean by this? Please elaborate.

Maybe we are at the core of the association, the pepole who renew no matter who is in charge, or what the dues structure is, a bunch of hammerheads in which case so be it. We are the ones who are going to pay the associations way.
Pay the way to where?

Perhaps the AFA has inadvertently become more about comradary than education and we just haven't reailzed it yet.
Comradary is OK and I see this among my local association. However I think the word for the AFA would be "cliquish" and that my freind is not a good thing as it leads to a organization which does not care what you think or want unless you are in the "clique".

I have to agree with Tom I think the AFA is on the path of self distruction. Only time will tell, and I think you will see it in the decline of membership both new and renewals thoughout this year.

Gary

Gary_Miller

03-03-2006, 01:14 PM

If you are not a member, you have no say in the future of this industry.
John
Statements like this is what is alienating non-members. Is this not the same attitude those who are for licensing/registration was trying to do last summer? Fix it so only the AFA has any say in the industry. Is it not what everyone said that they did not want to happen?

Gary

Phantom Farrier

03-03-2006, 01:56 PM

Gary,

I know what you are saying and perhaps I said it wrong but you get the idea. This is an opportunity for everyone to have some say otherwise who is looking out for your butt?

There are other associations and they all have a say also but if you belong to no association who are you going to call - you're congressman - what does he know or care about horseshoeing?

All I'm saying is that if the dues increase is your issue then renew soon before the rate goes up so your voice will be heard. I realize you have a choice of associations to join and I believe deep in your heart of hearts that you know the AFA is the right one - the one that's watching out for your backside. If you disagree with me then join another association - but belong to something.

Phantom :)

tbloomer

03-03-2006, 02:02 PM

Well you were going to quit if Dave didn't become president, now your going to quit anyway.

No. I quit because the board of directors dropped the ball after the mid year meeting in Omaha. After all of the posturing and feelgood "licensing is dead" stuff that went around in that meeting, the AFA never published a clear message on where the BOD stood on the subject. Instead they issued a gag order - thus leaving the public to assume . . . WHAT? After having pro-licensing propaganda published in several AFA publications last spring and summer - published as though it was going to become POLICY, the BOD never followed up in any way to set the record straight. They left the public wondering . . . "gee, why did they get so quiet all of a sudden on this licnesing thing?"

I made it very clear at the mid year meeting that if the BOD did not issue a public policy on this subject by years end that I would not renew my membership. That was going to happen regardless of who was elected. I stayed true to my word and I have laid out on this board the conditions under which I will return to the AFA.

Ok Bloomer, see ya down the road.
I'm sorry to disagree with you Tom but I do think you get some sort of satisfaction from all this.
Actually sometimes I hate it when I'm right.

But don't count the AFA dead yet. I'm still around, because I beleive that something good is going to come from all of this.

So do I. I believe that ultimately the AFA will learn what it needs to learn and become what it should be. However, somebody has to send them a message. I am one of the people delivering that message.

Though it is going to sound "eleatist", the AFA is more to me than the association it'self, and maybe it's not an association for everybody. Perhaps we are indeed trying to force round pegs in square holes and it isn't working.
Maybe we are at the core of the association, the pepole who renew no matter who is in charge, or what the dues structure is, a bunch of hammerheads in which case so be it. We are the ones who are going to pay the associations way. Perhaps the AFA has inadvertently become more about comradary than education and we just haven't reailzed it yet.

If you want to be a real "eleatist," join The Guild.

Thanks for making me think this morning Tommy.

Above all else, Mr. T.N. Trosin, CJF, I respect you as a thinking man. It is an honor for me, just standing in your shadow. :)

tbloomer

03-03-2006, 03:07 PM

Bloomer,

Tom - I'm disappointed that you now are a disgruntled ex-member. You're talking out both sides now. What the heck happened? Last year it was you who was concerned enough to pay your own ticket to Omaha for the special membership meeting to voice your opinion and I respect you for that. It is that kind of passion that makes the AFA the strong and viable. You have been the "dynamo" that forces the rest of us to keep improving ourselves and the Association. Encouragement from you and other members like yourself is the reason that I threw my hat in the arena - don't bail on me now.
John,

I am doing exactly what I said I would do based on the actions (lack of action) taken by the AFA board of directors. It appears that you forgot what I said. Apparently, all of the board members that I talked to at that meeting - the ones who promised to clean up the mess - forgot what I said as well. I am keeping to my word. I am carrying out a promise that I made to you personally and to several board members collectively.

Pony up the $105.00 because the dues increase doesn't take effect until June or July. If you are not a member, you have no say in the future of this industry.
As things stand right now, the AFA has NO SAY in this industry. Based on their track record over the past 3 decades, I do not want them to have any say in this industry. Believe me, if I thought that the AFA as it exists had any influence on horse owners (you know, the people who pay our bills?) I might take you seriously.

There was a whole lot of pro-licensing propaganda written in official AFA publications last spring and summer. The public perception was that the AFA as an association was on board the “train.” At the mid year meeting in Omaha, the BOD made it clear to me that this was not the case. However, the single most significant failure of the AFA Board of Directors in 2005 was to do NOTHING to inform the public of their POLICY and where the membership stood on the issue.

Why didn’t the BOD issue a public policy statement instead of a gag order? If they had done so, Rick Burten would have spent a lot less time explaining the truth to the uninformed – to wit, Revelinski and Lundquist. He has valiantly stood up for this association, doing the job that the board of directors SHOULD have done – in writing in PF Magazine and every other farrier publication that carried articles about all of the licensing propaganda.

As long as you are a member in good standing I'm all ears.
Since you didn’t remember what I said in Omaha, I’ve got to ask . . . CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?

Nominations are still open for Vice president and secretary - I suggest you put your money where your mouth is.

Phantom :)

My plan is to put my money, time, and energy into The Guild. I’ve been inspired by every Guild member that I have met. They’re ALL qualified journeyman or better. As a full time professional farrier, I believe that they better represent my interests to horse owners. I’ve wanted to be a member since before I ever heard of the AFA . . . yes I knew about The Guild first, when I was just a horse owner. Why is that?

Phantom Farrier

03-03-2006, 03:46 PM

John,
My plan is to put my money, time, and energy into The Guild. I’ve been inspired by every Guild member that I have met. They’re ALL qualified journeyman or better. As a full time professional farrier, I believe that they better represent my interests to horse owners. I’ve wanted to be a member since before I ever heard of the AFA . . . yes I knew about The Guild first, when I was just a horse owner. Why is that?

Tom,

I agree with you wholeheartedly. The AFA as a whole can and will do a lot more to educate the horseowner about the level and quality of workmanship to which they are entitled and that is what is stated in the mission statement.

It however will not be done overnight and without people like yourself. It is each and every member's duty to make the horse owning public aware of the AFA and what it means to be a farrier whether one is certified or not.

The horse owning public now has no idea of what it takes to be a professional farrier and I'm not talking about some credential, I'm talking about one's personal code of ethics. This means that every member of our Association accepts the resposibility to practice our profession according to the highest ethical standard. It is that personal attachment that you have made with your clients that promotes who you are and the people you associate with. They want to know that we care about them and their animals - you see Tom they won't care about how much you know until they know how much you care.

The Guild is a worthwhile organization to which I am also a member in good standing. You might think about covering all your bases.

While you speak of the AFA as being us vs them - WE are the AFA - WE are the members. Remember Tom - no members-no AFA.

I once thought of not renewing my dues as the answer but rejected that for the democratic option. Democracy is still alive and well within the AFA - I stand here as your living proof - don't desert us when we need you the most.

Phantom :)

tbloomer

03-03-2006, 03:46 PM

Judging by fhfgd post I would have ER insurance as well. Welcome to the "I survived in spite of myself" club.

Is it safe to assume that you've paid membership dues to that club a few times? :)

Rick Burten

03-03-2006, 03:55 PM

Is it safe to assume that you've paid membership dues to that club a few times? :)
I'm obviously not TNT, but there is at least part of one wing of the local hospital that has been named in my honor. Well, there's at least several bricks and probably some pretty fancy equipment that I have paid for over the years :o

tbloomer

03-03-2006, 04:10 PM

(deletia) It is each and every member's duty to make the horse owning public aware of the AFA and what it means to be a farrier whether one is certified or not.
(deletia)
THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.

That is the same message that I got from the last AFA president - 4 years ago - when I asked about what the AFA was doing to promote AFA farriers to horse owners. Until Ralph Casey started his TV show, the AFA had absolutely no interest in horse owner education.

Mr. Treasurer, how much money has the AFA spent on horse owner education and promoting AFA farriers compared to how much money the AFA has spent on forging competitions?

Rick Burten

03-03-2006, 04:26 PM

. It is each and every member's duty to make the horse owning public aware of the AFA
I completely disagree. If I, as a member of the AFA, have to make the horse owning public aware of the AFA, then instead of me paying dues to the AFA, the AFA should be paying me for marketing it.

It is in***bent on the AFA to make the horse owning public aware of its members and what they do and what they stand for. To date, the AFA has done a lousy job of that. As unaware as the public is of the AFA, is it not time to ask ourselves why? Which is more important, forging contests or promoting our certification program? Since apparently the horse owning public doesn't care much about credentials(regardless of which organization issues them), how much do you think they care about the placings at a forging contest?

Nope, considering the hefty dues increase just foisted off on us by the BOD, it is even more in***bent on the AFA to market itself(and defacto, its membership) than ever before. But if you or anyone else thinks I'm going to be a shill for the AFA, you need to seriously re-evaluate your line of thought.

To paraphrase JFK: "Ask not what you can do for the AFA, but what the AFA can do for you..."

Phantom Farrier

03-03-2006, 05:04 PM

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.

That is the same message that I got from the last AFA president - 4 years ago - when I asked about what the AFA was doing to promote AFA farriers to horse owners. Until Ralph Casey started his TV show, the AFA had absolutely no interest in horse owner education.

Mr. Treasurer, how much money has the AFA spent on horse owner education and promoting AFA farriers compared to how much money the AFA has spent on forging competitions?

Tom,

When you talk about what the AFA is doing for you, just who are you talking about? The OTHER members? Or is it you think there is some group - separate from the members. If you are a member you hold the highest position of authority in that organization.

Tom, you are no different than me or any one else. No member is less important or more important than any other - all mermbers are equal. You are the AFA.

If you or any one else has ideas to better serve the association, jump in both feet, pony up, and get active. I challenge you Tom Bloomer to put up or shut up. I'll personally pay your dues and nominate you for office. The association needs leaders, not whiners. If I can help with your campaign issues, let me know.

Phantom :)

Phantom Farrier

03-03-2006, 05:36 PM

I completely disagree. If I, as a member of the AFA, have to make the horse owning public aware of the AFA, then instead of me paying dues to the AFA, the AFA should be paying me for marketing it.

It is in***bent on the AFA to make the horse owning public aware of its members and what they do and what they stand for. To date, the AFA has done a lousy job of that. As unaware as the public is of the AFA, is it not time to ask ourselves why? Which is more important, forging contests or promoting our certification program? Since apparently the horse owning public doesn't care much about credentials(regardless of which organization issues them), how much do you think they care about the placings at a forging contest?

Nope, considering the hefty dues increase just foisted off on us by the BOD, it is even more in***bent on the AFA to market itself(and defacto, its membership) than ever before. But if you or anyone else thinks I'm going to be a shill for the AFA, you need to seriously re-evaluate your line of thought.

To paraphrase JFK: "Ask not what you can do for the AFA, but what the AFA can do for you..."

Rick,

Think about what you are saying. WE are the AFA. It belongs to US, it's members and no one else. It will take more than one member (me) to tell the world about the kind of service and quality they can expect from an AFA farrier.

I make no excuses, the AFA leadership is not perfect and has made mistakes in the past and can accept full responsibilty for everything that has happened. If I thought an elaborate demonstration of remorse would help I'd do it.

I promise you I will be hard on whatever caused these divisions and that is where I'll devote my energy. We won't let it happen again.

Most mistakes are not fatal or even beyond repair. Within every problem is an opportunity. We have the potential to learn a lesson for the future. However, me thinks you got JFK's paraphrase backwards.

Have you checked with your committee to find out about the dues? The rest of us are waiting for your answer. I will check with Michael Joshua on this as this dues increase was brought to the BOD, the reasons presented and a vote taken. It was done democratically. I really can't comment without the facts otherwise I'm just talking out my a--.

Rick, skilled communication is the thing that will produce positive results. Being the highly tuned spinmeister that you are, put those skills to work in a positive way for the good of the membership - we need you.

Phantom :)

Phil Armitage

03-03-2006, 05:44 PM

Tom, decideing to quit now makes no sense. New leadership is in place, good leaders I might add who are willing to listen and communicate. Give the AFA a second chance then decide.

tbloomer

03-03-2006, 08:20 PM

(deletia)
If you or any one else has ideas to better serve the association, jump in both feet, pony up, and get active. I challenge you Tom Bloomer to put up or shut up.

Don't insult my intelligence. I've been there, and done that.

Here's a little tidbit of information for you - I bought a bunch of old Anvil Magazines and old FYI/Hoofcare and Lameness Magazines (from Bob Skradzio and he donated the money to the Gulf Coast relief fund) which date back to about 1982. So I've been reading a lot of farrier history. There's a lot of AFA history in those old slick rags (or news-print if you go back far enough). So now I have information that I did not have when I joined the AFA. You might say that I have a better picture of the track record of the association over several decades.

Roy Amaral CJF

03-03-2006, 08:33 PM

John, You're the treasurer. shouldn't you be the one to explain what's up with the dues increase? Didn't you request the assoc. financials before you were elected? Why ask Rick? He clearly wasn't in on it. Why ask Michael Joshua? He's been fired. I doubt he has much to say.

Tom, $500 a head times 70 competitors pays for the one contest the AFA holds. The funding for the team dosen't come out of your dues. The team members get sent out to regional horseowner events to do demonstrations promoting the AFA.

What about promoting AFA farriers to horse owners. No doubt we're behind the curve on this but think back to the much derided Farnam deal. That got us the money for the TV show and the use of Farnam's influence with the AQHA. Now the AQHA (The largest breed assoc. in the USA) recognizes the AFA as the authority on hoofcare. Note the AFA's recent presence at AQHA regional events. A relationship with AQHA has lead to a relationship with NFQHA and American Horse council.

The TV show has put us in on the ground floor at the new Horse TV network. Not only do we get a show on the network we get a say in the direction of programing on the network.

**56K Stay Away** For those of you who haven't seen the TV show yet here's a sample (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6826277567320877932) -this is episodes 1+2. The plan was to cut it down into segments and stream it on a redesigned website. I'm not sure of the status of that project with the new administration. John?

We're in a pretty good place to make the AFA a household name. If we don't burn it all down right now. Note - say WE. I'm sticking around but I'm a little worried.

Phantom Farrier

03-03-2006, 09:19 PM

Roy,

You're absolutely correct, however I'm not sure I am in posession of all the pertinent do***entation at this time. This dues increase was presented and voted on before I was treasurer. I will spend much time going over the records and I've talked at length with David Edens about my job description and how he took care of the record keeping. It is a big job and will requiremany hours.

Today I installed the software sent me by Michael Joshua to display the files that Bryan Quinsey will e-mail with the most recent financial information. FYI to my knowledge Michael Joshua is still part of the financial teamwork of the Association and will remain as such for as long as he chooses. Michael is and always has been considered an asset to our Association and quite frankly I would probably have voted for him myself had I not chosen to run for office.

As soon as I get to look at all the do***entation of financial status and the needs and committments of the Association I will make my assessment of the situation. I promise that I will represent you and be the trusted servant that I have pledged and will be available to field questions and bring your input to the EC for consideration.

One of the first considerations for me is to prioritize our fiscal responsibilities. I look forward to working with all the members, officers, EC members and the excellent Board Members to continue to make the AFA all it can be.

Phantom :)

Phantom Farrier

03-03-2006, 09:47 PM

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.

That is the same message that I got from the last AFA president - 4 years ago - when I asked about what the AFA was doing to promote AFA farriers to horse owners. Until Ralph Casey started his TV show, the AFA had absolutely no interest in horse owner education.

Mr. Treasurer, how much money has the AFA spent on horse owner education and promoting AFA farriers compared to how much money the AFA has spent on forging competitions?

The contest is pretty much self-supporting and requires little or no moneys from the members. The expenses for educating horseowners is constantly increasing, but again a lot of that is sponsorship money. To answer your question, education of the horse owner is a much larger part of the expenditures than the contest. I dont have exact figures at this time but will advise you as soon as I get the facts.

Phantom :)

Phantom Farrier

03-03-2006, 09:49 PM

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.

That is the same message that I got from the last AFA president - 4 years ago - when I asked about what the AFA was doing to promote AFA farriers to horse owners. Until Ralph Casey started his TV show, the AFA had absolutely no interest in horse owner education.

Mr. Treasurer, how much money has the AFA spent on horse owner education and promoting AFA farriers compared to how much money the AFA has spent on forging competitions?

Tom,
The contest is pretty much self-supporting and requires little or no moneys from the members. The expenses for educating horseowners is constantly increasing, but again a lot of that is sponsorship money. To answer your question, education of the horse owner is a much larger part of the expenditures than the contest. I dont have exact figures at this time but will advise you as soon as I get the facts.

Phantom :)

T.N. Trosin

03-03-2006, 11:05 PM

Is it safe to assume that you've paid membership dues to that club a few times? :)

I have a lifetime membership.

Ben-Sturman

03-03-2006, 11:11 PM

OK, now that I have seen that the increase doesn't go into effect until after my renewal is due, I will probably reup for one more year and see where this ride takes us. :confused:

I would still like for someone with the knowledge to explain what my dues pay for and get me besides a magazine and insurance and a few discounts that really don't mean much to me. Also, what extra or new (if anything) will come with the increase, or are we going to get the same things for a higher price? What is it now that is costing so much extra that we need to have this raise? If it's not the contests, then what is our money funding, where is it being spent, and who is really benefitting from from it? When was this study done and the decision made to do this? Isn't this something that should be studied or reviewed on a continual basis and then the increases could be gradual as needed and not come as a shock? :eek:

If the money is funding horseowner education, where the heck is that education taking place? Is it just the new tv show that not all people get? Are there flyers we can request to hand out, informational dvd's, horseowner clinics we can get done with the AFA comming to our area to put them on? Are there articles being written by AFA members and submitted to all the horse magazines out there so that people from all different horse groups can get them and learn? Where is this info, who's putting it out, where are they putting it?

The deal with the AQHA is a good thing, but so far all I have seen is a couple of small blurbs in the Journal about some farrier's doing a clinic at the regional experiences, but just to say that a farrier was there and talked about shoeing. Also this month a small article about the agreement and that there would be more clinics at the regional experiences. So where is this association going for us, where is the educational material and how do we get it to all the AQHA members so that they know who we are and what we do? I am also a member of the AQHA as I own, breed, and train a few quarter horses myself. I haven't seen or heard very much about this association between the AFA and the AQHA except that it has been done on paper and there have been a few regional experience things happen. Why have we not had some one start a monthly column in the journal like the vets, the trainers, the judges, and the like. If we have this association why are we not taking advantage of it and talking with the AQHA to get a monthly column discussing and explaining what we do, why we do it, and why the AFA members should be there choice when deciding who to use for footcare. It should be educational and informational and cover all aspects of farriery, not just AFA certifacation shoeing. It could even be written by more than one person to give different perspectives. Just some ideas, but we need to get something more going.

I do feel as Rick said, what can the AFA do for me? I will do what I can to promote the AFA, and let people know about us. I will hope fully get something in return for my dues, my time, and my dedication to the organization. What will that be? Can they pull things together at the top and put the AFA on the right track and get the info out to the horse owning public? Can we keep enough people in the AFA to get this done? Can they get the info out and educate enough owners to make them seek me as a member out and help me make more money? Can the AFA help me if I stick around and do what I can to help them?

****** that's alot of questions, but sitting and reading this every day, many things have been running through my mind when driving, and I just needed to get them out and see if anyone has the answers. Thanks to all who take the time to read it all and give any answers they can.

Gary_Miller

03-03-2006, 11:16 PM

It is each and every member's duty to make the horse owning public aware of the AFA and what it means to be a farrier whether one is certified or not.
I talked about this before on another tread.
On November 14, 2005 I sent the AFA ED an e-mail requesting the following information.
"I’m trying to put together a flyer which will educate people about the AFA , the AFA certification program, and the benefits of using an AFA Certified Farrier.
Anything you have that may be of help to accomplish this would be greatly appreciated.
I also would like a copy of the New Certification Study Guide."

On November 14, 2005 I recieved this e-mail back.
"Gary – I’ll have staff send you everything that we have. Bryan"

All I recieved was the study guide. When I talked about this on this site before it was suggested that I send another e-mail to follow up. So I did.

On Febuary 2, 2006 I sent this e-mail to the AFA ED.
"I received the New Certification Study Guide, Thank You.

However I have not yet received the other information requested.

Here is what I requested on Nov 14th.
I’m trying to put together a flyer which will educate people about the AFA , the AFA certification program, and the benefits of using an AFA Certified Farrier.

Anything you have that may be of help to accomplish this would be greatly appreciated.

Your help in this matter would greatly be appreciated."

On the same day I recieved this.
"I thought that this was taken care of, obviously not. I’m mailing to you the last copy of an outdated AFA brochure titled “AFA Certification: Questions & Answers”, as well as a copy of the new AFA Certification Study Guide. Once you receive the information, you might also consider contacting Jill Ballard (the AFA’s Director of Education) or Dick Becker, CJF (chairman of the AFA’s Certification Committee). I’ve copied both of them on this email."

Feeling there was some misunderstanding of what I wanted I replied with this on the same day.
"I already have the old brochure on “AFA Certification” and the New AFA Certification Study Guide so there is no need to send them.

It appears that there is a miss understanding of what I’m looking for so I will try and explain better.

I want to put together a handout that I can give to customer/potential customers educating them on what the AFA is, since many horse owners don’t even know the AFA exists. I also want to educate them on the AFA certification program and the benefits of using an AFA certified farrier.

My purpose is to educate the public about the AFA and it certification program and the benefits of using an AFA member.

I have down loaded everything I could find on the AFA web page but still don’t enough information in order to put forth an education brochure to give to the horse owner.

I was hoping the AFA would have some materials already put together or which would help me put something together in order to educate the horse owner on the AFA and its programs."

On Febuary 3, 2006 the AFA Ed replied back with this.
"I understand what you’re asking for, but at this time it is simply not available. There are a couple of segments included in the new AFA television show “No Foot No Horse” about the AFA’s Certification program. That information will soon be made available by going to our website.

Your best bet would be to speak directly to Dick Becker. He can be reached at (810) 664-6764."

I tried to do my part as a member to help promote the AFA and the Certification Program even though I am not certified and knew it would not help my business at all.

I recieved no information that would help and nether Jill Ballard or Dick Becker have made any attemp to assist as well, even though they were CC'ed in the last three emails.

How is a member to help educate the public when the organization cannot provide anything to help the member.

Gary

tbloomer

03-04-2006, 07:49 AM

Gary,

Here's the problem with the AFA promoting their certification program.
---------------------------------

Last month I picked up a new customer who contacted me specifically because I was an AFA Certified Farrier. She had just moved to my area. Her horses had been shod previously by an AFA Certified Farrier.

One of the horses is a stable chronic founder. He has about 1/2" of laminar wedge in the white line at the toe. The previous farrier had shod this horse with a perimeter fit and a toe clip. The breakover was about 1-1/2" forward of the tip of P3. The horse was overloading his hind end in order to compensate - not really walking in the founder position, but definately standing under behind and straining to unload his front end. The owner had been riding this horse and she had no idea that he was sore until I ran my hand down his rump and he nearly collapsed from the pain.

I trimmed and shod the front end of this horse according to Duckett's parameters as taught to me by several of his students (Guild Members).
The front shoes are St. Croix Eventers, deep seated with no contact in the toe except in the pillars, breakover at tip of P3. The A/P center of shoe just behind widest part of foot (the bridge). The toe of the shoe is set under all the way to the white line and although not truely squared off, it looks pretty much like a Natural Balance shoe.

This horse walked of more comfortable and within 15 minutes he was trotting , landing heel first with confidence and striding out with good extension.

I shod her other horse, an Arab with very upright confirmation, with a perimeter fit St. Croix Eventer.

Called this customer for a followup a few days later. She said that both her horses were moving better then they had in a long time, BUT she wanted to know when I was going to do a "proper shoeing job" on her foundered gelding. She had read the AFA certification standard for evaluating horseshoeing, and therefore I had shod her horse incorrectly.

I attempted to explain what I had done and the reason behind it - she wouldn't hear about it. I offered to bring her my copies of Adams Lameness 5th Edition and Butler's P3 and show her the pertinent information - she didn't want to see it. Then I asked her, "Your horse seems to like what I did, does that matter to you?" Her answer, "According to the AFA what you are doing is wrong."

I don't know whether I will keep this customer, and frankly I don't care. If she has a problem with my shoeing, I'll refer her to Dave Ferguson and she can pay him to educate her.

Here is the point of this story. As an educational organization, the AFA has no educational content. In order for the AFA to become the "Authority on Hoofcare Education" the organization needs to create educational content. The first thing that the content needs to tell horse owners is that a qualified farrier is one who has enough education and experience to determine an individual horse's needs and meet those needs. As long as the educational content only talks about ONE WAY to shoe ALL Horses, the horse owner education will do more harm than good. So for now, I would prefer not to shoe for horse owners who have taken the AFA literature as dogma.

Rick Burten

03-04-2006, 07:55 AM

Rick,

Think about what you are saying. WE are the AFA. It belongs to US, it's members and no one else. It will take more than one member (me) to tell the world about the kind of service and quality they can expect from an AFA farrier.
John,

What kind of service can the public expect from an AFA farrier? Considering that anyone who comes up with the dues can join the AFA what , exactly, should we tell the public? Why? Now, we've just had a long discussion over on the "True Hacks" thread about the inconsistent quality of service and expertise that exists within our profession. What if one(or several) of those hacks is a member of the AFA? If the public only sees this kind of work and has been told that since this individual(s) is a member of the AFA that this is the kind of service and quality they can expect, how will that be helpful?
How do you promote the certification program and suggest that those with credentials represent what the public should expect from AFA members, when in fact, a preponderance of the membership is not certified? It is a conundrum for the AFA--how to promote one segment without disrespecting and alienating the other, and much larger, segment of the membership
I make no excuses, the AFA leadership is not perfect and has made mistakes in the past and can accept full responsibilty for everything that has happened. If I thought an elaborate demonstration of remorse would help I'd do it.
I don't think anyone here is expecting perfection. And, don't worry, by the end of your term in office, you will have ample opportunity to offer mea culpas and to also fall on your sword. :o
Most mistakes are not fatal or even beyond repair. Within every problem is an opportunity. We have the potential to learn a lesson for the future. However, me thinks you got JFK's paraphrase backwards.
Actually, I paraphrased it exactly as I meant to. And, If you and the rest of the leadership wants to do something to repair the currently tarnished image of the AFA, you could start by having the President call for a special meeting of the board with the specific purpose of recinding the exhorbitant dues increase9I think that most would agree that an ~ 43% increase is rather exhorbitant), and perhaps, instituting a more rational and reasonable one, or none at all. Maybe its time for the AFA to learn to live within its means without acting like the government and increasing our taxes to abate their taste for gluttony. Since you are so "Boston Tea Party", I find it interesting that you are not standing on the quarter deck throwing the tea bags(dues increase) overboard. And all while humming "Yankee Doodle".
Have you checked with your committee to find out about the dues? The rest of us are waiting for your answer. I will check with Michael Joshua on this as this dues increase was brought to the BOD, the reasons presented and a vote taken. It was done democratically. I really can't comment without the facts otherwise I'm just talking out my a--.
What would be the point? Since I don't even know if I was/am still a member of the committee, and since if I was/am, there was no interest in getting my input, I see little to be gained from the exercise at this point.
Rick, skilled communication is the thing that will produce positive results. Being the highly tuned spinmeister that you are, put those skills to work in a positive way for the good of the membership - we need you.
John, I never apologize for my relative command of the English language, nor do I consider myself a spinmeister. I'm sorry that you do. It seems to me that I am using that skill to do precisely what you want. My responsibility is first to the membership of my AFA chapter, and then to the membership at large. For me, the primary responsibility I owe to the membership it to try and insure fiscal responsibility by the AFA. I see my job as fiduciary. To that end, I have called into question the issue of the dues increase, and also the demonstrably inaccurate budget that was passed, and as you know, I have requested(in private and in public) that the leadership take immediate action to revisit both subjects and make changes as necessary. And that this action must occur prior to the end of the current fiscal year.

Here is a question for you. Was the subject of a dues increase on the agenda, as in included in the BOD packet sent to each representative prior to the meeting? If not, why not? After all, it was part and parcel of the proposed budget, although from what I have thus far been able to glean, no actual mention of it was included in the budget proposal.

And, lest you forget, when the sore subject of licensing and registration was the topic de jour and the leadership pretty much kept silent on the issue, there was one person who regularly tried to explain, in context, the actions of the AFA. Can you remember who that person is? Would you say that what that individual did was done in a positive way for the good of the membership, or not?

Rick

George Geist

03-04-2006, 08:49 AM

tbloomer

03-04-2006, 09:11 AM

(deletia)
"I’m trying to put together a flyer which will educate people about the AFA , the AFA certification program, and the benefits of using an AFA Certified Farrier.
(deletia)
Gary

If the AFA promotes their certified farriers they are opening a political can of worms. Since the majority of their members are not certified, they cannot promote the certification program as a credential without stepping on the toes of members who have not chosen to stand for the exams.

If the AFA begins promoting their certified farriers to the industry as superior to non-certified farriers, not only will there be a backlash from non-certified members, but there will be a backlash from non-AFA members. It happens on this board all the time. Anybody that posts a message saying that AFA certified farriers are proven competent by their certification, well I can think of a few regulars on this board that will climb down your throat about that and say it ain't so, then they'll back it up with examples. I just gave an example myself in my previous post.

It is my considered opinion that the AFA should be educating horse owners about the following:

1. The importance a good work environment plays in receiving good farrier service.
2. The importance good horse behavior plays in receiving good farrier service.
3. The importance of being ready with horses caught and reasonably clean at the time of the appointment.
4. The importance of maintaining a regular hoof care regiment.
5. The importance on PAYING the bill on time.
6. The importance of recognizing that the educated farrier who sees their horses on a regular basis is the person with the best information to determine their horse's hoof care needs. When the trainer, animal communicator, massage therapist, and Dr. Phil are the ones dictating how a horse is shod, this undermines the respect for the professional farrier.

The AFA already has literature that covers these topics. However, it is not easy to find, AND the association does not emphasize it. If the AFA were to focus their horse owner education on these six things, they would be providing a benefit to ALL farriers. These are the things that ALL farriers want from their customers. Ultimately, the horse owners who meet this criteria have few problems keeping a good farrier. They are the customers that ALL farriers want. If the AFA wants to have a positive effect on supply and demand, they can do a lot to create a supply of desirable customers.

Once farriers began to recognize how their trade is benefiting from the AFA's horse owner education program, they might feel obligated to join the association.

The current president of the AFA has every intention of focusing the AFA's horse owner education efforts in these areas. The problem I see is that It looks like he is going to have to fight against a lot of opposition in order to make this happen. Not because the opposition thinks he is wrong, but because it wasn't their idea. You can't dictate to a bunch of volunteers - especially when those volunteers have been in control and doing things their own way without regard for the desires of those whom they serve.

I believe that this election was a dirty fight that was won on the issue of licensing. To my way of thinking, that should send a message to everybody inside and outside the AFA. Now lets see what happens. I am waiting . . . $150 is chump change. I spend thousands of dollars a year on continuing education. However I am not willing to spend another penny fighting against 3 decades of momentum.

ray steele

03-04-2006, 09:41 AM

tbloomer

03-04-2006, 10:01 AM

Hey Tom Bloomer,
Although I'm inclined to agree that the AFA is crossing the line into costing more than their worth.

What in the world gives you such a high opinion of the Guild? If you join them that will bring them up to the whopping total of what now 30 members? Come on Tom you cant be serious.
George

George,

The Guild is not an INCLUSIVE organization. They are also not an educational organization. They exist to promote their members. If I can qualify for membership, then my business can benefit from The Guild's promotional efforts. I don't think that they are going to try to stop me from starting a marketing campaign. I've been recruiting for them . . . but only people that I think would make me look good. :)

As an EXCLUSIVE organization, why should they be interested in seeing every farrier join The Guild? The whole idea is sort of like the Marines - the few, the proud . . . ever hear anybody say that an RJF is incompetant? I've not seen it happen on this board.

Why do I want to join the Guild? Because I think I'm good enough. If I pass the test and meet the professional requirements, then I have proof. It puts me into a group made up of WHO's WHO in the farrier industry. The most sought after clinicians at the IHCS are GUILD MEMBERS. Guild RMFs wrote the horseshoeing chapters the two top lameness textbooks used in veterinary medicine. I attended The Guild meeting at the IHCS. The MAJORITY of the members in attendance were members of the farrier's hall of fame . . . no other farrier organization can say that. :)

The Guild's certification exam evaluates a farrier's ability to DETERMINE A HORSE'S SHOEING REQUIREMENTS, DESCRIBE THE SHOEING REQUIREMENTS, DEFEND THE PERSCRIPTION, AND DELIVER THE PERSCRIPTION WITH HAND MADE SHOES IN A WORKMANLIKE MANNER. All of this happens along with an evaluation of your professional demeanor and your horsemanship skills.

The examination is about as close to a real world shoeing situation as any farrier encounters in their daily work. Therefore, to anyone who is critical of the criteria that the AFA or anyone else uses for their certification, I say go take The Guild test.

There is one very big risk factor to taking The Guild exam. If you fail, you cannot be a member - because you aren't good enough. So taking the exam could be a very big risk to one's ego. If I fail, I will have to reevaluate my personal assessment of myself as a PROFESSIONAL FARRIER. I take that situation a lot more seriously than passing a test, which only measures my ability to do something that is predefined and requires no information gathering or analysis, just practice at taking the test.

ray steele

03-04-2006, 10:07 AM

tbloomer

03-04-2006, 10:11 AM

Wow Tom,

Sounds like you would like to see an organization, AFA or other that has an inclusive as opposed to exclusive direction, I think I heard that same mantra from you and a # of others this past summer. It may need to be shouted louder, because I'm not sure they can hear you, or maybe as in the past they are not listening. I'm sure you will correct me if I'm wrong on my take of what I heard .

Regards

Ray Steele
Well Ray . . . ,

If an organization is going to promote education, they have to be ABOUT education. The communication coming from that organization needs to be progressive. It needs to embrace educational dialogue with an open mind. The organization cannot have an opinion about right and wrong when it comes to hoofcare. Other than the obvious stance that ALL horses cannot be served by the barefoot movement, the organization should not have the appearance of adhering to a specific dogma. That message is very important. It should be a PUBLIC POLICY that is included in blod (that's BOLD BLOOD RED) type on every official publication . . . that would sure make Rick's job of defending the AFA a lot easier. :)

ray steele

03-04-2006, 10:17 AM

Tom,

Well said.

Regards

Ray Steele

T.N. Trosin

03-04-2006, 10:18 AM

If the AFA promotes their certified farriers they are opening a political can of worms. Since the majority of their members are not certified, they cannot promote the certification program as a credential without stepping on the toes of members who have not chosen to stand for the exams.

If the AFA begins promoting their certified farriers to the industry as superior to non-certified farriers, not only will there be a backlash from non-certified members, but there will be a backlash from non-AFA members. It happens on this board all the time. Anybody that posts a message saying that AFA certified farriers are proven competent by their certification, well I can think of a few regulars on this board that will climb down your throat about that and say it ain't so, then they'll back it up with examples. I just gave an example myself in my previous post.

It is my considered opinion that the AFA should be educating horse owners about the following:

1. The importance a good work environment plays in receiving good farrier service.
2. The importance good horse behavior plays in receiving good farrier service.
3. The importance of being ready with horses caught and reasonably clean at the time of the appointment.
4. The importance of maintaining a regular hoof care regiment.
5. The importance on PAYING the bill on time.
6. The importance of recognizing that the educated farrier who sees their horses on a regular basis is the person with the best information to determine their horse's hoof care needs. When the trainer, animal communicator, massage therapist, and Dr. Phil are the ones dictating how a horse is shod, this undermines the respect for the professional farrier.

The AFA already has literature that covers these topics. However, it is not easy to find, AND the association does not emphasize it. If the AFA were to focus their horse owner education on these six things, they would be providing a benefit to ALL farriers. These are the things that ALL farriers want from their customers. Ultimately, the horse owners who meet this criteria have few problems keeping a good farrier. They are the customers that ALL farriers want. If the AFA wants to have a positive effect on supply and demand, they can do a lot to create a supply of desirable customers.

Once farriers began to recognize how their trade is benefiting from the AFA's horse owner education program, they might feel obligated to join the association.

The current president of the AFA has every intention of focusing the AFA's horse owner education efforts in these areas. The problem I see is that It looks like he is going to have to fight against a lot of opposition in order to make this happen. Not because the opposition thinks he is wrong, but because it wasn't their idea. You can't dictate to a bunch of volunteers - especially when those volunteers have been in control and doing things their own way without regard for the desires of those whom they serve.

I believe that this election was a dirty fight that was won on the issue of licensing. To my way of thinking, that should send a message to everybody inside and outside the AFA. Now lets see what happens. I am waiting . . . $150 is chump change. I spend thousands of dollars a year on continuing education. However I am not willing to spend another penny fighting against 3 decades of momentum.

This post gave me an epifini this morning.

The position of AFA Secratary will be open, and I think that I am going to nominate Tom Bloomer for the position. This would be an excelent oppertunity for you Tom. Your obviously a bright man, so takeing minutes should be no problem for you, plus you would be in the EC and according to you in a position to put your money where your mouth is.

So I await Mr. Bloomer, would you accept the nomination?

Shoot, I'll even pay your dues

tbloomer

03-04-2006, 10:21 AM

Tom,
after reading your post to George, I can see that I'm out in left field, I guess I should check with other Guild members about their viewpoint.

Sorry for the missread.

Regards

Ray Steele

ps Guild members,

do you encourage membership by the everyday working farrier or do you wish to discourage membership by the same? I 'm asking for clarification sake. To be above board on this, I would like to ask the same question of AFA and BWFA members.
Ray,
Your questions are answered on The Guild web site . . . and by the US Marines. Although the Marines are somewhat exclusive (at least in their marketing campaign) they certainly aren't the Navy Seals . . . I believe that would be the RMF level of exclusivness - but I can't say for sure since Rick Burten was a Marine, he probably ate two seals for breakfast and six green berets for lunch while he was serving our country :)

tbloomer

03-04-2006, 10:30 AM

This post gave me an epifini this morning.

The position of AFA Secratary will be open, and I think that I am going to nominate Tom Bloomer for the position. This would be an excelent oppertunity for you Tom. Your obviously a bright man, so takeing minutes should be no problem for you, plus you would be in the EC and according to you in a position to put your money where your mouth is.

So I await Mr. Bloomer, would you accept the nomination?

Shoot, I'll even pay your dues

If I fail The Guild examination I would accept the nomination. If I pass, I'll be too busy working to promote The Guild. So if you want to take advantage of me and my big mouth, you can cover all of your bases by joining The Guild. :)

T.N. Trosin

03-04-2006, 10:43 AM

If I fail The Guild examination I would accept the nomination. If I pass, I'll be too busy working to promote The Guild. So if you want to take advantage of me and my big mouth, you can cover all of your bases by joining The Guild. :)

So in other words you have officailly jumped ship and hence forth I will only see posts from you concerning the problems with the Guild?

Fair enough

T

Gary_Miller

03-04-2006, 11:00 AM

I can agree about what Tom was pointing out about the AFA promoting the certification program, he made so good valid arguments.

The point of my post though was that I tried to get information from the AFA to do my part as a member and recieved nothing. Because there was nothing available and those who are in the postions of responsability to help did nothing to help.

Instead of the ED just saying we have nothing but contact so and so they maybe able to help you. He should of said I don't have anything currently available how ever I will get a hold of the person who can best provide this and get back to you. Instead I just got blown way.

I tried to do my part and got no help from those who should be helping.

Now I'm being told that I need to pay $150 for that prevlage.

So what would be the best use of my hard earned education dollars.

Attend the up comming Davie Ducket clinic or join the AFA.

Purchase Doug Butlers book P3 or join the AFA.

Put the money towards a forge or join the AFA.

I think you get the point.

I will use my money else where until such time the AFA proves it self as an organization whos primary goal is to educate and help farriers in bettering there business. As well as an organization who walks the talk of their mission statement.

I currently don't see that.

Gary

George Geist

03-04-2006, 11:17 AM

Funny about perception being reality. When I was in high school I think the recruiters from the Marines were the most persistent of all. Looked to me like they would take anybody they could get. Even had one show up to my house once. The ones who didnt work very hard at it but always had a waiting list to get in was the Air Force. This is perception vs. reality but I do understand what youre saying.

I'm not so sure you're belonging to an elitist type organization will help your business any more than the AFA did. Any body joining any farrier association thinking it will significantly help their business is liable to be disappointed. A state or local association is probably in a better position to do that although they usually fall short in that area as well.

Outside of being one of a clique of guys that you seem to admire, do all 29 of these guys offer you any benefits? Since you had to go buy life insurance they must not have that. As I understand it you'll get an AFJ subscription. You probably have that already anyway. Do they have any political muscle?

As far as having to pass a test to hold membership, I dont think thats a bad thing in itself. I DARE the AFA to do that one.

Most of what they appear to try to do is in direct imitation of the JHU. However, and this is very important, without any of the benefits. Anything that makes its members jump through hoops in order to join should rightfully offer something other than just bragging rights or meaningless credentials.
George

tbloomer

03-04-2006, 11:24 AM

So in other words you have officailly jumped ship and hence forth I will only see posts from you concerning the problems with the Guild?

Fair enough

T
Unless someone specifically asks me for my opinion, I will not be posting regarding the AFA. My jumping ship is a challenge. I think I've spelled out very clearly what it's going to take to make me want to come back.

In my opinion the only problem The Guild has is limited funds and resources. They pretty much know who they are and what they are about. There isn't much about The Guild that isn't spelled out very clearly on their web site. Having seen this organization from the outside and meeting a bunch of it's members - while attending a meeting, I was very comfortable.

tbloomer

03-04-2006, 12:19 PM

Phantom Farrier

03-04-2006, 05:07 PM

Guys,

You don't have to pick and choose farrier associations, professional magazines or venues for your continuing education any more than you are required to swear allegiance to Kaerkhart, Diamond or St Croix.

Tom, if you want to join the Guild, it's a great organization with some top notch people. The AFA on the other hand is also a great association with some top notch people, but there the similarities end. You are not required to drop your membership in the AFA to join the Guild, as many fine Guild members see benefit in belonging to both .

What does it mean to be an AFA member? For me it simply means that I pledge to provide quality, effective hoof care service to my clients and continually improve my skills through continuing education and professional development activities. This is what a horse owner can expect from an AFA farrier. Why?

1. Exciting professional development training with on going continuing education programs for all levels of farrier expertise.

2. Advanced training for higher levels of farrier science.

3. Advanced training in the different shoeing needs of breed and riding disciplines

4. Exposure to cutting edge technologies with mentoring programs

5. For those wishing to challenge themselves: A certification from entry to the most advanced levels.

This as a vibrant industry, the future is bright and options - many. The AFA will play to it's strengths all the while reevaluating it's priorities, weigh the options then take the ball and run with it.

One of the shortcomings of any organization is that it's impossibleto be all things to all people all the time. With that said, many good points have been made here on this forum and haven't fallen on deaf ears.

I will always try to present what my perception is of the AFA and what it has meant for me to be a member for all these years. These are just my opinions.

Phantom :)

Rick Burten

03-04-2006, 08:52 PM

since Rick Burten was a Marine, he probably ate two seals for breakfast and six green berets for lunch while he was serving our country :)

Actually, I rather enjoyed the company of Navy Seals, and as bad a a baaaaad Marine may be, Navy Seals redefine that word. :eek:

Green Berets gave me indigestion and gas so I struck them from my dietary and nutritional requirements list :D

Improvise, Adapt, Overcome. Semper Fi!

Gary Hill

03-04-2006, 09:19 PM

Careful Rick that all kinda sounded alittle "Brokeback----

Gary_Miller

03-04-2006, 11:10 PM

You don't have to pick and choose farrier associations, professional magazines or venues for your continuing education any more than you are required to swear allegiance to Kaerkhart, Diamond or St Croix.
No but you do have to decide what is best for the situation and what will give you the best result for the money spent.

What does it mean to be an AFA member? For me it simply means that I pledge to provide quality, effective hoof care service to my clients and continually improve my skills through continuing education and professional development activities. This is what a horse owner can expect from an AFA farrier.
You don't have to be an AFA member to provide this kind of service. In fact it been proven time and time again on this board that being a member does not guarantee you will provide this level of service.

1. Exciting professional development training with on going continuing education programs for all levels of farrier expertise. Where are these programs?

2. Advanced training for higher levels of farrier science. Where is this training?

3. Advanced training in the different shoeing needs of breed and riding disciplines Where is this training?

4. Exposure to cutting edge technologies with mentoring programsWhere is this program?

5. For those wishing to challenge themselves: A certification from entry to the most advanced levels.The certification program is the only good thing I have seen comming from the AFA.

This as a vibrant industry, the future is bright and options - many. The AFA will play to it's strengths all the while reevaluating it's priorities, weigh the options then take the ball and run with it.
Not if they continue to flunder like they have over the past year.

One of the shortcomings of any organization is that it's impossibleto be all things to all people all the time. With that said, many good points have been made here on this forum and haven't fallen on deaf ears.I don't expect any organization to be all to everyone. I do how ever expect them to proved a service to the members to the level of money expected to be paid by the membership to be a member. I also expect them in leadership postions to be responsive to their members.

I will always try to present what my perception is of the AFA and what it has meant for me to be a member for all these years. These are just my opinions. John, I value your opion and expertise in this profession more than you know. What you say does not fall on death ears.

Gary

tbloomer

03-05-2006, 06:16 AM

(deletia)
1. Exciting professional development training with on going continuing education programs for all levels of farrier expertise.

2. Advanced training for higher levels of farrier science.

3. Advanced training in the different shoeing needs of breed and riding disciplines

4. Exposure to cutting edge technologies with mentoring programs

5. For those wishing to challenge themselves: A certification from entry to the most advanced levels.

(deletia)
Phantom :)

The American Farriers Association has announced categories for the new level of specialized certification for farriers. The new "Specialty Recognition Program" (SRP) will allow farriers who have attained the Certified Journeyman level to demonstrate competency in a particular type of farriery.

According to the AFA, these areas will be 1) Eventers, hunters, jumpers; 2)Draft breeds (work, show, performance); 3) The****utic shoeing; 4) Show horses (Saddlebreds, Morgans, Arabians, National Show Horses; 5) Hackneys and Welsh ponies; 6) Thoroughbreds and other racing breeds; 7) Walking horses and racking horses; and 8) Western performance horses.

Testing will include written and oral examination, as well as specimine shoes. The AFA will be developing the specific tests for each category. The****utic shoeing is expected to be the first area to be completed for testing.

The preceding is an exact quote from the Summer 1993 issue of Hoofcare & Lameness magazine. I met Dave Ferguson in 2001. He had recently passed the Theraputic endorsement. The AFA did not update their certification study guide until 2005 to include this specialty. I requested information on this certification from the AFA office in 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2004.

At the 2005 mid year meeting I talked to Jeff Ridley about a specialty endorsement for gaited show horses (his specialty). He told me that there was some interest in creating more specialty endorsements. (Note that I purposely wrote the preceeding sentence in the passive voice). It was not until I got ahold of the old magazines that I realized how much progress the AFA has made.

T.N. Trosin

03-06-2006, 12:26 AM

The American Farriers Association has announced categories for the new level of specialized certification for farriers. The new "Specialty Recognition Program" (SRP) will allow farriers who have attained the Certified Journeyman level to demonstrate competency in a particular type of farriery.

According to the AFA, these areas will be 1) Eventers, hunters, jumpers; 2)Draft breeds (work, show, performance); 3) The****utic shoeing; 4) Show horses (Saddlebreds, Morgans, Arabians, National Show Horses; 5) Hackneys and Welsh ponies; 6) Thoroughbreds and other racing breeds; 7) Walking horses and racking horses; and 8) Western performance horses.

Testing will include written and oral examination, as well as specimine shoes. The AFA will be developing the specific tests for each category. The****utic shoeing is expected to be the first area to be completed for testing.

The preceding is an exact quote from the Summer 1993 issue of Hoofcare & Lameness magazine.

OK Tommy here is your mission if you chose to accept it.

Read any farrier magaizine you wish from 8/1993 to about 5/1994 and see if you can find out what happened to that. Something did, but I bet you can't find it.

tbloomer

03-06-2006, 08:22 AM

OK Tommy here is your mission if you chose to accept it.

Read any farrier magaizine you wish from 8/1993 to about 5/1994 and see if you can find out what happened to that. Something did, but I bet you can't find it.

I don't need to read anything to figure out what happened. They were all endorsements to the CJF. Since the number of CJFs is a very small minority of the AFA membership, AND it would require a lot of effort to create each specialty endorsement, It would not be fair for the AFA to dedicate its time, energy, and resources to create programs that would only benefit a small minority of the membership. So whether the idea died in committee or got voted down by the membership is irrelevant. It wasn't a practical idea - not saying that it was a bad idea (I think it was a good idea in principle) - just not feasible within the demographics of the membership.

I do find it interesting that there are enough farriers interested in seeking AFA certification that some folks have begun offering courses, which give advanced training that is geared toward “passing” the AFA exams. I also think that attending such a course is the most economical way to build the knowledge and skills required to pass the exams. You can even buy sample written exams and practice taking the written test.

The computer industry is the same way. When certifications became desirable, the market began supplying schools that teach you how to pass the test. There is a caveat to this situation. When to goal is to pass the test, the student can develop tunnel vision - it becomes about passing tests instead of about learning.

In the computer industry, the tougher certifications began using "adaptive testing." The way an adaptive test works is interesting. If you miss an easy question on one topic, the next question on that topic is more difficult. So the testing machine finds your weakness and exploits it. I think that's how some AFA examiners grade a shoe board. They make the candidate build the shoe that they think gave them the most difficulty. I like that idea.

Where I see a difference between the AFA certification and the computer industry is that the AFA does not have ANY educational material. They have a test, a study guide, and the membership. So if you want to pass the test, you have to hook up with AFA members who can help you with that, go to a precertification clinic, or a precertification “school,” or take the test 3 or 4 times or more. The more CJFs you hang out with the better your chances of becoming one. That’s a good thing. BUT, it is not so good for somebody that lives in an area where there are no CJFs. There is also the human factor. Not every CJF is going to be able to teach. Not every CJF is going to be willing to “give back.”

In the preceding paragraph I mentioned a lack of educational material. The AFA Certification Study Guide points the candidate toward certain books. However it does not go into detail about what parts of which books apply to the test material. So unless you know how to take a study guide and develop your own test review material, you’re going to have a problem passing the test. And then it becomes about the test.

So as an educational organization, what can the AFA do to provide better education? How can they streamline the process of learning and make it more efficient? How can the AFA generate educational CONTENT? What can the AFA do to become the clearinghouse for farrier science and research? Where is the cross reference for published farrier science papers located? What would happen if the AFA went on a data mining expedition and created a database of knowledge that could be reached for the price of membership?

Rick Burten

03-06-2006, 08:46 AM

Geez Tom, now your talking like the AFA needs a functioning and functional IT committee. :D

Gary_Miller

03-06-2006, 09:19 AM

So as an educational organization, what can the AFA do to provide better education? How can they streamline the process of learning and make it more efficient? How can the AFA generate educational CONTENT? What can the AFA do to become the clearinghouse for farrier science and research? Where is the cross reference for published farrier science papers located? What would happen if the AFA went on a data mining expedition and created a database of knowledge that could be reached for the price of membership?
Then the AFA would truly become the organization which would further the professional development of farriers, provide leadership and resources for the benefit of the farrier industry, and improve the welfare of the horse through continuing farrier education.

However it will take alot of forward thinkers and leaders with vision to make this happen.

Is the new leadership currently in place upto the task?

Are the right folks in the committees who can push it forward?

Gary

P.S. When I see this happening then I will put forth the cost of membership.

T.N. Trosin

03-06-2006, 09:22 AM

I don't need to read anything to figure out what happened. They were all endorsements to the CJF. Since the number of CJFs is a very small minority of the AFA membership, AND it would require a lot of effort to create each specialty endorsement, It would not be fair for the AFA to dedicate its time, energy, and resources to create programs that would only benefit a small minority of the membership. So whether the idea died in committee or got voted down by the membership is irrelevant. It wasn't a practical idea - not saying that it was a bad idea (I think it was a good idea in principle) - just not feasible within the demographics of the membership.

Wrong go study

tbloomer

03-06-2006, 06:33 PM

Wrong go study

Well, if it wasn't covered in Anvil or H&L, and you already bet that I wouldn't find it, why tell me to go study? The pile is 3 feet high. I've been reading to learn about farrier science, not the AFA.

Hoofangler

03-06-2006, 08:55 PM

Re: the books suggested to read for the CJF test. I dare you to try and find all of them (and if you do, please let me know where...especially Scott Simpsons book).

Mike

tbloomer

03-06-2006, 09:17 PM

Re: the books suggested to read for the CJF test. I dare you to try and find all of them (and if you do, please let me know where...especially Scott Simpsons book).

Mike

Mechanics of Horseshoeing Simplified?

Found it online at
www.spanishlake.com
www.horseshoes.com/supplies/alphabet/washoe/en-us/dept_9.html
www.piehtoolco.com/en-us/dept_1122.html
www.ken-davis.com

It took me a lot longer to cut and paste the links than it did to find the book online.

Dude you need to learn to use the Internet.

tbloomer

03-06-2006, 09:22 PM

Geez Tom, now your talking like the AFA needs a functioning and functional IT committee. :D
I thought that the IT committee was dissolved in order to protect the AFA from me.

T.N. Trosin

03-07-2006, 07:56 AM

tbloomer

03-07-2006, 12:50 PM

"The pile is 3 feet high. I've been reading to learn about farrier science"

Oh Bull butter, like I said you probably won't find it, but becuse you wouldn't want too, It's a lot easier just to pop off. The answer is actually in the anvils if you read enough.

Why can't I just look up the answer in the AFA archives in an online database? Maybe H&L just made the whole thing up and there was never any official plan from the AFA.

Do you think that I'm on some sort fishing expedition?

Rick Burten

03-07-2006, 04:50 PM

George Geist

03-07-2006, 04:54 PM

Yes Sir,
As I said I think it was too much money before. This is insanity.
George

Dave Purves

03-07-2006, 05:00 PM

I talked to my chapter representative today for a little while on the phone, and it appears that they had some sort of "advisor" come in and in a nut shell, explain that the AFA is severly dis-organized. Now whether or not the AFA head honchos will be doing something about this or not, I don't know. But as I understand the raise in dues was due to not wanting to count on sponsors such as Farnam to finance the projects and everything else that the AFA does, appeartantly the FIA was really PO'd that Farnam is the "official product of the AFA". From what I hear, you couldn't even get a free rasp anymore. That is sad, very, very sad.

Dave

George Geist

03-07-2006, 05:30 PM

Dave Purves

03-07-2006, 06:17 PM

Dave,
The fact that their disorganized is nothing new they've always been that way. For what reason did they need an "expert" to tell them that? They only needed ask somebody who has held a membership for a while. It tends to be cyclical getting worse and better regularly but the turmoil is always there. Remember when we had a president quit in the middle of his term back in the '80s?

Sorry George I don't remember that, I graduated from high school in 1991, and got out of the Army in 1996. I didn't know that the AFA existed at that time.

Most of you guys are businessmen. Do any of you raise prices when business is dropping off?

I for one raise prices in hopes that business WILL drop off. However, the AFA isn't a "business" per say. They are merely an organization that has some rough road ahead.

These guys say they want to grow the membership. A whopping dues increase is not any way to do that. If they want more members they should do 2 things.

I'm afraid there are more that two things that must be done.

1) Cut the dues down to something reasonable. $50 would be fine but no more than $75 tops. Simple reason being thats all its worth. No more.

I for one don't care if they raised the membership dues up to $150, it's one more trim than last year. I also don't think that $50 or $75 is enough to sustain a national organization with the goals and ideas that the AFA has (or should have.) I believe that in the last few years with Jeff Ridley as the member rep, the benefits have grown greatly, leaps and bounds better than just 4 or 5 years ago. I hope that it continues to grow also. I think that dues in the $125 to $150 range is fair as long as the AFA continues to grow it's benefits packages.

2) Go back with hat in hand, eat crow, kiss butt. do whatever they have to do, but one way or another get the American Farriers Journal back. I think we can all agree that the publisher of that magazine has proven beyond any doubt that The AFA needs him much more than he needs the AFA.

I'd have to disagree with this statement. I don't believe that either one needs the other at all. In fact I'm quite glad that the AFA started publishing PF magazine. It's one more rag for me to read on the throne, just a little more information that maybe isn't in one of the other mags. And let's face it, a little competition for subscriptions should make both mag's even better. I agree that PF has a long way to go, and they need to get away from so many forging and contest articles, but for a fairly new mag, they're not doing bad, in fact I hope to submit and article or two myself this year, in hopes of helping to get away from some of the hammering. I never really liked AFJ much anyway. I don't care if Joe Schmoe from Kokomo drives a dually with a stonewell, and I know what it's like shoeing for a day, to follow around some guy trimming pets doesn't intrigue me at all. There are two good pages in the AFJ for sure, the two yellow ones. There is pertinent information on those pages, after that, it's ads for this and how Old Dub Quartercrack set up a semi trailer to shoe out of. I don't care for.

The membership they will lose from this dues increase as well as their never ending turmoil will ensure their need for corporate monies more than ever.
George

Probably true. Many people are fed up and were looking for a reason to get away from the AFA for awhile now, and the dues increase is just what they were looking for. However some people will stick it out and try to fix the problems and change the perception.

If you ask me the only thing the AFA really needs to do to get more members is drop the good ole' boy mentality of joining the certification club, and stop pressing the issue of certification standard shoeing. They need to include all modalities of shoeing and provide the research and ideas that we need everyday to decide which horses that we take care of need what specifically. The behind the scenes "war" with NB is ridiculous and just one reason why the AFA has lost members. I don't want the government telling me whats good or bad for me, and I don't need the AFA to tell me what's good or bad for the horses I shoe, I just need them to be the source for ALL the information out there and let me decide for myself.

stepping off soapbox, exiting stage left

Dave

brian robertson

03-07-2006, 07:34 PM

Dave, Well said. saved me a lot of keyboard time.

Jaye Perry

03-07-2006, 07:58 PM

............If you ask me the only thing the AFA really needs to do to get more members is drop the good ole' boy mentality of joining the certification club, and stop pressing the issue of certification standard shoeing. They need to include all modalities of shoeing and provide the research and ideas that we need everyday to decide which horses that we take care of need what specifically. The behind the scenes "war" with NB is ridiculous and just one reason why the AFA has lost members. ........

stepping off soapbox, exiting stage left

Dave

This particular soapbox speech should have been made during the campaign, including the deletia.

Why do you think I wrote YOUR name in on my AFA ballot for president. New up and coming farriers with drive, ambition and clarity of fore thought of the future of farriery in this country.
Purves is not the only one with this drive or mentality, the more I invite young farriers here and they see the world outside the AFA standard(s) of farriery, they go home scratching their heads.
The horse world has changed and is evolving into something that standard methodologies and techniques can no longer accommodate.

AFA needs a leadership that isn't afraid to step on toes, cower to peer pressure(s) and to be lead in a forward thinking manner. Also, become more accustom to different methodologies, techniques and ways of thinking. In my years in and out of the AFA membership, the same ole things seem to keep popping up- one person has a method or technique or protocol and that becomes the "standard" that the "good ole boys" follow until somebody new in the group comes up with something else.
This so called good ole boys network never looks outside the box, they just stay in the same ole sandbox they have been playing in for years. It seems over the years the litter hasn't been changed.????? IMO.

Phil Armitage

03-07-2006, 09:04 PM

I recall makeing those statements 3 to 4 years ago and getting hell from Dave. I think the newly elected officers will demonstrate exactly what your talking about. That is why I voted for them and still an AFA member. I knew years ago the AFA needed to make changes and there being made.

Jaye Perry

03-07-2006, 10:53 PM

beslagsmed

03-07-2006, 11:48 PM

Has anyone else read the convention updates/highlights on the AFA web site?
One of the things that jumped out at me that I had not heard before is that in addition to raising regular member dues by $45.00, the board, in its infinate wisdom raised student dues from $35.00 to $85.00. I have a real problem with this. Does anyone else?

Another thing, there were no vidios done. For us who can't make the convention I really enjoyed the vidios. Is it because there wasn't enough purchased from last year? To me this is an educational thing. I also agree with you - why make students pay more right now. They are the future. Got to take care of the future.

Mikel

Phil Armitage

03-08-2006, 06:42 AM

[QUOTE=Phil Armitage]I recall makeing those statements 3 to 4 years ago and getting hell from Dave. ......QUOTE]

So at 3-4 years ago, that would have made you a authority in AFA , shoeing and methodologies/ techniques at the ripe old age of tenure shoeing horses for 3 years or so. Give or take a month or so.

Phil,
you really need to stick with something you know about, kissing *** and esoteric hypotheticals..

Wow Jaye, your way off.

Maybe Dave can fill you in, he responded to a lot of my comments made about the AFA and certification.

Over 6 years ago I actively persued certification and became increasingly disinterested as I gained a better understanding of whole process. I voiced my questions and concerns here and to other AFA members.

2 years ago I noticed good changes being made. I think the AFA is starting to get on the right track with education and certification and now can see how obtaining my certification will help me. So I am again persueing my certification. Your way behind and need to get caught up. Your comments would have been right on a few years ago.

Your *** kissing comment and remark about of how you percieve my level of knowledge and experience is exactly the type of **** one would have heard years ago from the good ole boy network. You would have fit right in, maybe elected as president. To late for your type to get involved now unless you look in the mirror and make some changes.

David Hayne

03-08-2006, 06:46 AM

It appears there is more happening on this site then on the AFA members Only area .......Since 1987 I have been an off and on again member of the AFA...sometimes I forgot to pay my dues or just did not have the extra money to go around.......good thing poverty is not a crime.

When this computer parked itself in my home and I logged onto the AFA site it encouraged me to maintain my membership with the AFA. I was forever reading anything I possible could to enhance my knowledge...

In preparing for my road of certification I requested a pre clinic study guide but was told I have to go to a pre certification clinic in order to get a copy...living in Canada and preparing to go to the AFA convention 2 years ago I decided to save my money from travel and spend time reading and talking to as many farriers as I could to give me direction in writing this exam. I thank Dr Butler for his Books and Videos and also John Blombach's Study Guide....plus my good friend Aaron who taught me a little latin. I truly had wished I could have received a pre certification study guide at home but I took the gamble and it payed off....but I still felt like I was walking down a dark tunnel....did I study the right topics...my brain is only so big.

Continueing Education is why I am a member of the AFA but with the increase in dues I have to seriously take into account am I getting my monies worth....the new increase for membership for me is to be payed in American Dollars which will bring my dues close to $300.

I also am a member of my local association an have been trying to encourage my members here to join the AFA ......now the dues have increased....It is my own personnal reasons why I am a member and it will be a balancing act to fiqure out where I will find the extra money. Should I pay up now or do I slide away for awhile...my mind is not made up yet but I do know that I will need a new truck this summer and a new furnace for my home plus those children of mind love to educate themselves in College....$$$$$$$

If I can get my monies worth I will have know problem paying up .....I just wish the AFA could make some of the study material more accessible to us far away members....Little suggestions off sample questions on the web site would be a good start....similar to Mr. Blombach's Study Guide.....plus Video's.

I was looking forward to the DVD's for this years convention...since I did not go.....I always purchased them but this year they are not available....so much for my Home Study Continueing Education....." was this convention taped " ....if they where how do I get copies....I will pay.

A question I have asked for several times but still have know answer for....the Insurance Policy attached to the AFA membership..." does it cover us members who live outside the United States"...this could be my best reason to justify the increase in Dues, since I have become " Videoless"

David

Phantom Farrier

03-08-2006, 07:26 AM

David,

Any new increase in dues will not take effect until June or July so if you renew before then it will still be $105.00. Glad you found my study guide useful - the AFA will be making more material available to members both in hard copy and also on an inter-active web site. I don,t have dates for you yet, but these developments are in the works.

Phantom :)
John Blombach, CJF

Jaye Perry

03-08-2006, 07:31 AM

Wow Jaye, your way off.

........
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Phil Armitage

03-08-2006, 07:39 AM

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

:D :D

If I were an *** kisser wouldnt yours be a good one to kiss? Think about it, when have I ever kissed your *** or anyone elses for that matter.

Jaye Perry

03-08-2006, 07:49 AM

:D :D

If I were an *** kisser wouldnt yours be a good one to kiss? Think about it, when have I ever kissed your *** or anyone elses for that matter.
mmmm ;) ;)

Dave Purves

03-08-2006, 10:17 AM

Phil, In the early days of my posting on these boards, I spent the better part of my time defending the certification process. Most if not all of the arguments that I had on these boards were about certification and it's standards. I don't ever recall arguing with you or anyone else for that matter about the "politics" of the AFA. I have said since day one, that the AFA needs to include ALL MODALITIES INCLUDING NB in order to be succesfull. They need to be the SOURCE OF INFORMATION our FARRIER LIBRARY if you will. I also spent a good amount of time trying to persuade people to join and help affect change in the organization. However, my mind is weak and my back is strong, so if I'm incorrect about my recolections, then I apologize and merely wish that I could have the fortitude, and forbearance that you exemplify. However I'm sure that if you go back to the archives and find those old threads, you will find that I was argueing two seperate but equal points, certification, and the politics of the AFA. In my opinion they are two very seperate things and should be!!!

Dave

Phil Armitage

03-08-2006, 07:43 PM

Phil, In the early days of my posting on these boards, I spent the better part of my time defending the certification process. Most if not all of the arguments that I had on these boards were about certification and it's standards.

I remember that and I recall some very good discussions. A few certified farriers and yourself made some great points of how the system is not perfect however what you learned getting there was well worth it. That statement motivated me to look into it more and attend a pre-certification clinic.

I don't ever recall arguing with you or anyone else for that matter about the "politics" of the AFA.

I agree we did not argue politics. The politic discussions started with the news of licenseing.

I have said since day one, that the AFA needs to include ALL MODALITIES INCLUDING NB in order to be succesfull. They need to be the SOURCE OF INFORMATION our FARRIER LIBRARY if you will. I also spent a good amount of time trying to persuade people to join and help affect change in the organization.

I totaly agree with you and it is great to hear you say that. I recall makeing that very point when argueing with you about certification based on a standard that does not fit everyday shoeing. Today I am very optomistic about the AFA and have seen for myself improvements especially in regards to education. Since I have spent more time in the forge lately and have learned how to properly practice, thanks to AFA clinics. I now see what you mean about the journey to certification being very rewarding and helpfull pass or fail. We have a great group of AFA certified farriers in my area that are up beat and positive about continueing education and helping others. The past two SNEFA meatings I have attended have been excellent. Rochester Equine Center is hosting a pre-cert clinic in the spring and certification in Oct. There are plans to have hammer ins at one of the guys shops. I see the changes trickling down and more AFA farriers willing to discuss things and work together, this is a very good sign. Too bad Tom is bailing out just when things are getting better.

However, my mind is weak and my back is strong, so if I'm incorrect about my recolections, then I apologize and merely wish that I could have the fortitude, and forbearance that you exemplify. However I'm sure that if you go back to the archives and find those old threads, you will find that I was argueing two seperate but equal points, certification, and the politics of the AFA. In my opinion they are two very seperate things and should be!!! Dave

Politics is part of life and part of any process and orginization I do not know how it can be seperated. The key is communicate, listen to members and non-members. Open forum discussions like this one is also very helpfull.

I had a great discussion with a friend of mine, AFA CJF farrier in the area about NB. The short and sweet of it was, he didnt have a problem with NB shoes, he just doesnt like the idea of farriers looseing the skill to make shoes for the horse. We should be able to make what the horse needs and have it fit right includeing nailing. He also doesnt understand how a farrier from one part of the country can say how to shoe a horse in another part of the country when the enviroment is different. Pretty simple and logical and based on many years of experience.

Gary Hill

03-08-2006, 08:53 PM

Gary_Miller

03-08-2006, 09:37 PM

Today I am very optomistic about the AFA and have seen for myself improvements especially in regards to education.
If the current education program is an improvement then the AFA is really in trouble. I don't see an education program at all. Pre-certification clinics are not educational programs they are prep for testing program so one can know what to exspect.
Since I have spent more time in the forge lately and have learned how to properly practice, thanks to AFA clinics.
I would like to know where all these AFA sponsered clinics are. All I ever see are clinics put on and sponsered by the local Farriers Association. The association takes care of the planning, finding an clinition and funding the clinic.
The AFA has had nothing to do with clinics until recently when you now have to get approval so you can get your CE credits.
Too bad Tom is bailing out just when things are getting better.
If things are getting better then the AFA must have been really messed up. If this is better then I have to agree with Tom its time to burning to the ground and start all over again.

I have not been around the AFA long but what I have seen over the last year does not make me what to continue my membership.

By the way what has happened to John he has not answered my last questions or posted for several days except to say you can still get the $105 membership fee through July. I'm starting to wonder if he has had a gag order place on him by the AFA BOD as well. ;) ;) :D :D

Gary

Phil Armitage

03-09-2006, 07:13 AM

I have a hard time understanding that the AFA all of a sudden made you want to get in the forge and learn how to handmake shoes? I STARTED in the forge at the school I went to and still use it everyday. My teacher, Al Pinson was a fantastic farrier and great in the forge. He taught from the beginning that working hot was the only way. Do I handmake every shoe? NO way with all the ready made ones on the market, BUT they all get heated and shaped. The first time I cold shod a horse was for the so called certification test? And just what, with the new increase and dropped insurance do you get for your bucks, a sticker for your truck or jacket? If joining the club is going to improve my business, FYI I'm turning down horses as my book is and has been full for quite awhile. I do benefit from working for Horsemen and not horseowners and I live in the south with a mild climate.

I did not recieve that training in school and now consider it an excellent skill for any farrier to have. Knowing how to shape hot steel is so much easier. I have also gone the NB route and I am not happy with how the shoes fit. I have also tried Alum. Eventers and KH Triumphs still not satisfied with doing it that way. The work I feel the best about is useing a good steel shoe, like KH SX-8 and haveing the ability to shape them properly. My instructor was not in favor of joining the AFA told me I did not need it. My books are also full and all of my clients could care less if I were an AFA member certified or not. What it comes down to is what your proud to show off and how you feel about the job you did. So far I really like what I have learned about forgeing and properly useing my anvil, hammer and tonqes. It gives me the confidence that I can do the job right no matter what shape of condition the foot is in. Just another tool in my tool bag.

It is unfortunate that so many veteran farriers knock the AFA and the skills to work in the forge. What is wrong with pointing a new farrier down the right rode for the benefit of the horse and the farriers future. Inorder to practice things correctly it has to be taught correctly. So maybe the AFA has a very good point when they targeted schools. It all starts with how your taught in the first place.

I know very little about blacksmithing and want to learn all I can. Haveing this skill enables us to do the job with minimum material. When a Vet asks for angles to be raised, toe to be shorter, protection support we can make it with steel right on the spot. Lets face it, even the best shoes on the market, pads and glue on shoes have there limitations depending on the enviroment the horse is in and condition of the foot. We can go as heavy or light as we need and use as large or as small of a nail needed placed whereever we need it to do the job. I have seen glue on shoes used in situations where the farrier felt nailing was impossible and become even more of a disaster and totaly mess up the feet because of the enviroment. Useing a steel shoe with leather pads smaller nails and allowing the foot to breath and get healthy again can get these feet back into shape. Glueing has its place, however so does good skills like shapeing, drawing clips and punching nail holes. Not trying to argue this point with anyone just want to pass this on to future farriers.

tbloomer

03-09-2006, 07:54 AM

(deletia)
The horse world has changed and is evolving into something that standard methodologies and techniques can no longer accommodate.

(deletia)

Jaye,

I agree with your point, but from a different perspective. What is happening is that the farrier industry has adopted new STANDARDS, METHODOLOGIES, and TECHNIQUES. The "standards" have evolved to accommodate the horse world. The AFA has not evolved, adapted to nor adopted the new standards.

When I hear people like Stovall, Burten, Heymering, et. al. - folks who have passed the C.J.F. exam - talk about how they seldom (if ever) shoe a horse with a perimeter fit, it makes me wonder . . . not that I'm picking on these folks, but to my way of thinking, these guys are examples of progressive, highly educated, thinking farriers. I believe that what they individually practice and preach is pretty much the "State of the Art." Why hasn't the AFA as an organization had the same vision?

My answer to this question is that the AFA does not actually have a standard. They have tests. Their tests measure ones ability to hit a predefined target. Therefore the test measures the ability to "pass the test." This is the only thing that the AFA has ever presented to the public as a "STANDARD." The industry does not support that standard, which begs the question, what's wrong? Has the industry run amok? Is the industry falling for "Foot Fads" lock stock and barrel?

Rick Burten

03-09-2006, 08:06 AM

I did not recieve that training in school and now consider it an excellent skill for any farrier to have. Knowing how to shape hot steel is so much easier. I have also gone the NB route and I am not happy with how the shoes fit.
It bothers me that a school, any school that purports to teach the art and science of horseshoeing, does so without teaching, at a minimum, the fundamentals of forge work. To me, this is yet one more example of the sorry state of formal farrier schooling/education in the United States. Imagine if you will, how that and other things might have changed had the School Survey Committee not only been allowed to do its job, but encouraged and supported to do so. Instead, we got the fox guarding the hen house: the schools themselves forming a committee to establish standards, etc, ad naseum. Any of you heard so much as a peep from this vaunted group? I thought not. Their purpose was accomplished when they got the AFA to shut down its committee.

Phil,
Please understand that this is not directed at you personally. You were, IMNTBCHO, victimized. You paid for something(a proper education) and got the big green weenie.

As for the NB shoe fit. I use a lot of NB shoes(and a lot of other brands/styles too) and agree that right out of the box, they don't fit all that many feet. While I can successfully wear out my arm adjusting their fit cold, it definately is a hell of a lot easier and more precise to be able to work them hot. And, I don't buy that if I'm doing things correctly, those shoes should fit, 'right out of the box' , just about any foot.

Farriers, veteran or not, knock the AFA for lots of reasons. The certification standards are an easy target, especially for those who, for what ever reason, have decided that they don't like them. We also often hear the complaint that the AFA is nothing but a bunch of good ole' boys who look down their noses and spurn the rest of us. Well, there may be some in the AFA that fit that bill, but so what? Those kinds of people infest any and every organization. The vast majority of the people who make up the AFA are decent, hardworking types who would give you the shirt off their back, the knowledge in their head, the skill in their hands, to anyone who genuinely wanted or needed it.

That the AFA continues to 'shoot itself in the foot' really ****es me off. Just when we finally put out one fire, we go and light two more. Its really ******. But I suppose that some of that is the result of having an organization that is basically run by volunteers, most of whom have little to no experience running a large and diverse corporation.

Anyway, I'm glad you are so enthused about working in the forge. You, your clients, and anyone who, down the road, you pass your knowledge on to, are the better for it.

Phantom Farrier

03-09-2006, 08:31 AM

My answer to this question is that the AFA does not actually have a standard. They have tests. Their tests measure ones ability to hit a predefined target. Therefore the test measures the ability to "pass the test." This is the only thing that the AFA has ever presented to the public as a "STANDARD." The industry does not support that standard, which begs the question, what's wrong? Has the industry run amok? Is the industry falling for "Foot Fads" lock stock and barrel?

Bloomer,
If one cannot already shoe a horse they have no business taking the AFA certification exam in the first place. Certification provides a national standard of achievement and competence.

The AFA provides an opportunity for those who wish to learn, improve their skills through lectures, demonstrations and mentoring programs.

The AFA sets professional standards that encourage all AFA members to practice their professions at the highest levels of skill and integrity. The words "AFA Member" on your letterhead or business card tell your clients and peers that they are working with someone committed to delivering only the best!

Phantom :)

Rick Burten

03-09-2006, 09:44 AM

If one cannot already shoe a horse they have no business taking the AFA certification exam in the first place. Certification provides a national standard of achievement and competence.
Demonstrably, that standard is not adjudicated either evenly or equally across the board.
The AFA provides an opportunity for those who wish to learn, improve their skills through lectures, demonstrations and mentoring programs.
Other than the Exchange Program which accepts what, two people/year, what are these mentoring programs?
And John, if the lectures, demonstrations etal, all revolve around only a small perspective, what is one going to learn? Why do you think the Hoofcare Summit is so well attended? There are a bunch of really thirsty farriers out there and thus far, the AFA appears to be offering them mostly sand to assuage their thirst.
The AFA sets professional standards that encourage all AFA members to practice their professions at the highest levels of skill and integrity.
Encourage and 'demand of' are two different breeds of cat. And, since the AFA has no means/method to either require or enforce these standards(whatever they may be), I submit that this is a bunch of puffery.

And, are you saying that the AFA does not encourage non-members to "practice their professions at the highest levels of skill and integrity"?
The words "AFA Member" on your letterhead or business card tell your clients and peers that they are working with someone committed to delivering only the best!
They(the words "AFA Member) do no such thing. since it is demonstrable that the vast majority of the horse owning public and even those in related fields, know little to nothing about the AFA, and since it also demonstrable that this same group couldn't care less, and since it is demonstrable that "delivering only the best" is not happened all the time, then your statement becomes illogical and defacto, incorrect.

It could well be argued that a farrier who adds "Non-AFA Member" to his/her letterhead or business card may be just as well, if not more so, accepted and 'revered' by his/her clients and peers. Especially in light of the way the AFA continues to shoot itself in the foot.

John, the truth is that even in this microcosm of farriers and others, the acceptance and overall suppport of the AFA is somewhat south of favorable. And we won't even get into, important.

Perhaps what the AFA needs as a 'next step' is an NB endorsement to its CJF credential. Now that might be a real attention getter!

Gary_Miller

03-09-2006, 11:03 AM

Certification provides a national standard of achievement and competence.
AFA certification provides a AFA standard of achievement and competence.

There is nothing national about it.

The AFA sets professional standards that encourage all AFA members to practice their professions at the highest levels of skill and integrity.
After what happened within the AFA over the last year with the licensing/registration issue. Then the BOD placing a gag order and refusing to take up the issue, as if it will just die if they ignore it. Then rasing the fees by $50 accross the board without imput from members or even members of the finance committe. Makes one wonder where these professional standards, skills and integrity are.

I perfer to set and hold myself to much higher standards, skills, and integrity.

Gary

Phil Armitage

03-09-2006, 07:06 PM

Phil,
Please understand that this is not directed at you personally. You were, IMNTBCHO, victimized. You paid for something(a proper education) and got the big green weenie.

As for the NB shoe fit. I use a lot of NB shoes(and a lot of other brands/styles too) and agree that right out of the box, they don't fit all that many feet. While I can successfully wear out my arm adjusting their fit cold, it definately is a hell of a lot easier and more precise to be able to work them hot. And, I don't buy that if I'm doing things correctly, those shoes should fit, 'right out of the box' , just about any foot.

The school I attended did do a very good job teaching basics, so I do not feel cheated. I do think learning how to make handmade shoes should be a part of any school. No matter what school a farrier goes to the most important thing is what each individual does afterward to learn more.

NB has taught me a lot most important how to trim. Totaly agree with you on last point, I don't buy it either. I also do not buy that they would be difficult to make or that the only other option is an Eventer. The same thing can be achieved with a Kirkhart SX8.

Phil Armitage

03-09-2006, 07:20 PM

If the current education program is an improvement then the AFA is really in trouble. I don't see an education program at all. Pre-certification clinics are not educational programs they are prep for testing program so one can know what to exspect.

It is a prep for the test, which is a good thing because now you know what to expect. Farriers going for certification sometimes travel great distance and have the expense of a motel room, it is nice to be prepaired and not get told right away your not going to pass. I recieved a lot of great information unrelated to testing at pre-cert clinic I attended. It was very educational and I walked away with more knowledge than when I walked in. Learning how to use the horn of the anvil was a light bulb moment.

I would like to know where all these AFA sponsered clinics are. All I ever see are clinics put on and sponsered by the local Farriers Association. The association takes care of the planning, finding an clinition and funding the clinic.
The AFA has had nothing to do with clinics until recently when you now have to get approval so you can get your CE credits.

I do not know all the details about putting on clinics, but shouldnt it be run localy? Joine your local association, I did and it is great.

If things are getting better then the AFA must have been really messed up. If this is better then I have to agree with Tom its time to burning to the ground and start all over again.

I think many agree with you and why we saw new faces running for office. Got to give it a chance. Doesnt do any good to dwell on what was done, that is water under the bridge now, time to move on.

I have not been around the AFA long but what I have seen over the last year does not make me what to continue my membership.

That is totaly your choice, you can always check back later on and see if things got any better.

By the way what has happened to John he has not answered my last questions or posted for several days except to say you can still get the $105 membership fee through July. I'm starting to wonder if he has had a gag order place on him by the AFA BOD as well. ;) ;) :D :D .
Gary

I don't think you will ever see John be stifled by a gag order. Have you ever read any of SNEFA's news letters, the man is pretty open and honest.

Phil Armitage

03-09-2006, 07:37 PM

Phil,............ I apologize and merely wish that I could have the fortitude, and forbearance that you exemplify. Dave

Dave, did you spend the night with Uncle Jaye and he helped you with the big words? That was really nice of him.

Forbearance:
1: a refraining from the enforcement of something (as a debt, right, or obligation) that is due. I do not think you meant that it doesnt fit the context of the discussion.

2: the act of forebearing: Patience. Maybe you meant that and your hinting I should be patient, I am not always patient so this is a good time to start.

3: the quality of being forebearing: Leniency Well it is obvious I am not being lenient. Maybe I should start doing that also.

Fortitude:
1: strength of mind that enables a person to encounter danger or bear pain or adversity with courage. Yep that is me all the way, thanks if you meant it. :)

Well that was fun, if you get any more big words from uncle jay maybe we can play again.

(Sorry Ray I couldnt help it.) :D

Gary_Miller

03-09-2006, 09:06 PM

It is a prep for the test, which is a good thing because now you know what to expect. Farriers going for certification sometimes travel great distance and have the expense of a motel room, it is nice to be prepaired and not get told right away your not going to pass. I recieved a lot of great information unrelated to testing at pre-cert clinic I attended. It was very educational and I walked away with more knowledge than when I walked in. Learning how to use the horn of the anvil was a light bulb moment.
It maybe educational. However its sole pupose is to help with test prep in order to help the individual to be better prepared for the test.

It is not an education program. Its a test preparedness program.

Where is the education program in which the AFA boasts is so good?

I do not know all the details about putting on clinics, but shouldnt it be run localy? Joine your local association, I did and it is great.
Yes local associations should put on clinic. I'm a member of the local association.

However you are the one that made the statement about how you have benifited from AFA clinics. Where are these AFA sponsered clinics you speak about? I don't consider clinics put on by the local association AFA clinics.

I think many agree with you and why we saw new faces running for office. Got to give it a chance. Doesnt do any good to dwell on what was done, that is water under the bridge now, time to move on.
You can only make judgemt based on the past. If one sees the same old garbage day after day, month after month, year after year, it gets old. I hope the new faces can help fix the problem a good place to start is with the ridiculas price increase. Then they should review the mission statement and redirect the AFA so that it lives upto the the mission statement. After that they need to ensure that the BOD takes up the licensing issue and does something more that placing a gag order.

That is totaly your choice, you can always check back later on and see if things got any better.
I will be watching what happens, and when I see some real progress I will rejoin the ranks of what I conside could be a top notch leader in the industry.

I don't think you will ever see John be stifled by a gag order. Have you ever read any of SNEFA's news letters, the man is pretty open and honest.
In that case I'm will patiently await the answers to my questions on post #81.

Gary

Wannabeee

03-09-2006, 09:25 PM

Well Im happy someone made a test, they set the bar and the road to passing that test is one that helps you learn. Now we need a NB test , long footed test, Sport horse test , and any others anyone wants to write and make a general standard for the test, since they will all set the bar for higher learning.

Of course any test will be picked apart as the AFA tests are, but when someone does put one together and print the standards and get the testers together on the same page,let me know please.

On how the AFA is run and spends,well schools around here have been firing janitors and teachers so princepals can have 2 secrataries(sp),and I dont pull my kids out of school. If you want changes make noise, demand answers and be ready to step up and help in whatever way is needed.

Im sure if the AFA was run EXACTLY as I said Id still ***** about something, how about you. If 45 more dollars is really needed to run it then so be. Drive 5 miles a hour slower youll save 45 dollars next month, :D .

Ok enough rambling, IF someone would take thier time and write and set up a different(better maybe more diverse) testing system please do so,oh and how much on the AFA testing system do you think you would copy doing it.

Scott

Phantom Farrier

03-09-2006, 09:52 PM

.
In that case I'm will patiently await the answers to my questions on post #81.
Gary

Gary,
From your rants on post #81, one must assume you missed the AFA Convention in Omaha this year - so sorry, you missed it all.

The Convention this year brought together under one roof some of the biggest name movers and shakers in our industry to help members solve real-life problems with real-life solutions.

There were wet labs, lectures, demonstrations and the media learning center that let you customize valuable time to meet the needs of you and your busuness. Topics like the latest equine research, lameness and business success.

You know the AFA understands what it takes to succeed and these educational resources are designed to help you do just that.

Phantom :)

Ben-Sturman

03-09-2006, 10:49 PM

OK John, if the AFA convention was so good, then why do I keep hearing that the IHCS is bigger and better already after only two or three years? If the AFA convention was so great, so educational, with so much to learn, then why the ****** did they not get it all on camera and have the DVD's for sale this year? If all this good stuff was there, I think they missed the boat again by not having it available to those of us who couldn't make it there. Can you find out why they missed this opportunity to spread all that education out to others? Just because I didn't attend doesn't mean I don't want to learn what the people there got to learn. Again, I'm being overlooked by the AFA, I can't attend there little siorre(sp) so I don't get the benefit of the education. Seems fair to me, not.

Look, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but what the heck is realy going on with the AFA? Do the little guys like me out here working every day, still learning, still trying to become what so many of you are, farriers, not mean a ****** thing except that were now going to be $150.00 donaters to what ever the high and mighty leaders want for the good ole boys club? John, I am also still waiting for the answer to the question I asked earlier which is, "What the heck am I and all the other members going to get for the increase we are going to pay in dues?" Will all stay the same, or are there more things to be added and that's why they set the new higher dues?

I guess the biggest question that needs answered is this, "Will anything change in the AFA with the new leadership and if so what and when?" and Will we hear about the changes before they are done or get them afterwards and be surprised like the last two times?

I'd just like to know that if I stick around and do my part the the AFA will do their part to make things better. So far nobody has given me that feeling from the info that has been given out.

Gary_Miller

03-09-2006, 11:17 PM

The Convention this year brought together under one roof some of the biggest name movers and shakers in our industry to help members solve real-life problems with real-life solutions.

There were wet labs, lectures, demonstrations and the media learning center that let you customize valuable time to meet the needs of you and your busuness. Topics like the latest equine research, lameness and business success.

You know the AFA understands what it takes to succeed and these educational resources are designed to help you do just that.
I will give you that the convention is a good thing.

However once a year does not make an education program.

Where are all these other things you mentioned.

1. Exciting professional development training with on going continuing education programs for all levels of farrier expertise.

2. Advanced training for higher levels of farrier science.

3. Advanced training in the different shoeing needs of breed and riding disciplines

4. Exposure to cutting edge technologies with mentoring programs

Gary

tbloomer

03-10-2006, 07:42 AM

I guess the biggest question that needs answered is this, "Will anything change in the AFA with the new leadership and if so what and when?" and Will we hear about the changes before they are done or get them afterwards and be surprised like the last two times?

I'd just like to know that if I stick around and do my part the the AFA will do their part to make things better. So far nobody has given me that feeling from the info that has been given out.

I had a telephone conversation two nights ago with the new AFA president. Apearently while we have been here talking about the lack of educational content in the AFA, he has been working his but off putting together some programs to fill that need.

John & T.N.,

Maybe you should catch up with your leader and find out what all the excitement is about. I would reveal some of the details, but I don't want to speak for the AFA and I don't know how much of what they are planning will actually be implimented. If the AFA actually produces results that resemble the plan, no one will be able to stop me from joining even if they double the dues. :) However, it remains to be seen whether or not the LEFT hand will cooperate with the RIGHT hand. (Pun intended.)

Ronald E. Kramedjian

03-10-2006, 07:38 PM

I had a telephone conversation two nights ago with the new AFA president. Apearently while we have been here talking about the lack of educational content in the AFA, he has been working his but off putting together some programs to fill that need.Tom,

I'm glad that there is something in the works, but unless I miss something in the bylaws, the education committee is responsable for developing the AFA's education plan, not the President.

Now if your telling us that he is working closely with the Education Committee Chairman and the members of the Education Committee and that the committee is prepairing an exciting package for the BOD to review for implementation at the mid year meeting I will applaude Mr. Ferguson's efforts to energize the Education Committe and his ability to lead them toward his vision. Otherwise I fear that his efforts will fall to the wayside because the BOD is tasked with authorizing programs that have been recomended by one of the BOD's committees. And the BOD expects that this process be followed when looking at the changes that the AFA need to make.

tbloomer

03-10-2006, 10:58 PM

Tom,

I'm glad that there is something in the works, but unless I miss something in the bylaws, the education committee is responsable for developing the AFA's education plan, not the President.

Now if your telling us that he is working closely with the Education Committee Chairman and Member of the Education Committee and that the committee is prepairing an exciting package for the BOD to review for implementation at the mid year meeting I will applaude Mr. Ferguson's efforts to energize the Education Committe and his ability to lead them toward his vision. Otherwise I fear that his efforts will fall to the wayside because the BOD is tasked with authorizing programs that have been recomended by one of the BOD's committees. And the BOD expects that this process be followed when looking at the changes that the AFA need to make.

Of course we don't want Dave to actually accomplish anything before the mid year meeting. That would totally wreck havoc with the glacial progress that we are used to seeing from the AFA. Every effort should be made to make sure that the bureaucracy and the officious propriety of the bylaws remains sacred. I think you should keep a close eye on him. Make sure he doesn’t overstep his authority. God forbid he should step outside the box and actually produce results. Imagine the political fallout that would come if the president of the AFA created some sort of runaway education train!

Imagine how devastated the members would be to find out that someone actually succeeded in creating some form of educational substance beyond the convention and the certification program. It would be truly appalling if that happened without going through the proper channels and strictly following the sacred bylaws. After all following the rules is more important than the prime directive of the organization, right? If I were you I would be on the phone to Lexington. Find out what is going on. Maybe you can stop him before he actually makes any progress. I’m counting on you, Ron. Somebody needs to police the situation. While you’re at it maybe you can convince the Board of Directors to stop hiding behind their gag order and issue a public policy statement on licensing.

Ronald E. Kramedjian

03-11-2006, 06:42 AM

Of course we don't want Dave to actually accomplish anything before the mid year meeting.Actually I'd like to see him accomplish as much as possible. But I'd expect him to do so while functioning within the guidelines provided by the bylaws. The EC or the BOD can call for special meetings of the BOD and if something needs to be moved forward they should meet and deal with it. After all I belong to the AFA and the more it does for me the better it is for me as a member. It would be ****** to want the President of the AFA to fail. That would hurt me as a member. The last time I checked, being ****** was not one of the things that I had been accused of.

Every effort should be made to make sure that the bureaucracy and the officious propriety of the bylaws remains sacred..... After all following the rules is more important than the prime directive of the organization, right?Corporations have bylaws that are in place and they are required by state law to function within those rules. The rules do provide for changing the rules. And yes every effort must be made to function within the rules because the law requires that it be so. If the bylaws are not obeyed civil litigation can result. You know this so why are you wasting our time with this kind of BS?

tbloomer

03-11-2006, 08:33 AM

Actually I'd like to see him accomplish as much as possible. But I'd expect him to do so while functioning within the guidelines provided by the bylaws. The EC or the BOD can call for special meetings of the BOD and if something needs to be moved forward they should meet and deal with it. After all I belong to the AFA and the more it does for me the better it is for me as a member. It would be ****** to want the President of the AFA to fail. That would hurt me as a member. The last time I checked, being ****** was not one of the things that I had been accused of.

Since I provided no information about who is involved other than the prez or for that matter anything specific about what is going on, you seemed pretty ****** to me when you immediately questioned whether the prez was overstepping his bounds and not working within the rules. It is that kind of ******ity that will keep the AFA in the dark ages.

Corporations have bylaws that are in place and they are required by state law to function within those rules. The rules do provide for changing the rules. And yes every effort must be made to function within the rules because the law requires that it be so. If the bylaws are not obeyed civil litigation can result. You know this so why are you wasting our time with this kind of BS?

You are the one slinging the bovine excretia with the inference of impropriety, not I. If you want to know what is happening in the AFA, contact you BOD rep or call Lexington and ask. I heard some things that were potentially exciting, however I am not a member, nor am I privy to the details of how things are being planned or who is involved in the planing.

I'm sitting back and waiting to see some results. If there are no results, I expect that there will be plenty of excuses. What is your excuse for not knowing what is happening and who is involved? I've provided just enough information to prompt those members who are interested (or concerned) to find out what is happening.

Maybe if you look into the situation directly, you might be able to report back here with real information rather than conjecture and innuendo. Maybe you could help the public image of the AFA by reporting on what programs are being planned and who is involved in the planning. Sometimes releasing information early can generate a little excitement for a new product. Then when the product is brought to market, customers are already lined up waiting to buy. You could be suplying some real positive energy . . .

Ronald E. Kramedjian

03-11-2006, 05:24 PM

Since I provided no information about who is involved other than the prez or for that matter anything specific about what is going on, you seemed pretty ****** to me when you immediately questioned whether the prez was overstepping his bounds and not working within the rules. It is that kind of ******ity that will keep the AFA in the dark ages.First and foremost it would be good if you did not try to put words into my mouth.

You are the one that came back with a post filled with declarations of how bad it is that members of the AFA expect the AFA bylaws to be honored during the process. I simply have reminded you that there is significant state law backing everyone’s having to play by the rules outlined in the bylaws. Nowhere have I accused Mr. Ferguson of anything.

To recap, I stated that I was encouraged, based upon your report, that Mr. Ferguson appears to be making progress on an education agenda. I also observed and stated my hope that he is effectively using and leading the AFA committee that is in fact tasked with the job of developing the AFA's education agenda and stated my belief that not using the committee's effectively would make moving things forward very difficult.

I believe that Mr. Ferguson is capable of providing the leadership necessary using the diplomacy, negotiation and positive personal involvement working in close cooperation with the various committee chairmen necessary to move his agenda forward. When Mr. Ferguson ran and the was subsequently elected I know he had to have had a good grasp of the restrictions placed on the AFA President by the bylaws and I believe that in knowing that he must have had a plan that would work to move things forward based upon those restrictions. As a member I am eagerly waiting to see how things develop.

Gary_Miller

03-11-2006, 10:36 PM

To recap, I stated that I was encouraged, based upon your report, that Mr. Ferguson appears to be making progress on an education agenda. I also observed and stated my hope that he is effectively using and leading the AFA committee that is in fact tasked with the job of developing the AFA's education agenda and stated my belief that not using the committee's effectively would make moving things forward very difficult.

I for one am glad to hear Mr. Ferguson is trying to get something going on education. I don't see that its wrong or against the bylaws to do this as long as it ran by and approved by the education committee.

Whats wrong is Mr. Ferguson is haveing to do the job that the education committee should be doing in the first place.

Maybe all the committees should get off the butt and do something.

Gary

tbloomer

03-12-2006, 06:30 AM

To recap, I stated that I was encouraged, based upon your report, that Mr. Ferguson appears to be making progress on an education agenda..

I reported no progress. I only reported that he was working his but off.

I also observed and stated my hope that he is effectively using and leading the AFA committee that is in fact tasked with the job of developing the AFA's education agenda and stated my belief that not using the committee's effectively would make moving things forward very difficult.
Maybe he will figure out a way for all the committee chairpersons to communicate with the other committee members.

I believe that Mr. Ferguson is capable of providing the leadership necessary using the diplomacy, negotiation and positive personal involvement working in close cooperation with the various committee chairmen necessary to move his agenda forward. When Mr. Ferguson ran and the was subsequently elected I know he had to have had a good grasp of the restrictions placed on the AFA President by the bylaws and I believe that in knowing that he must have had a plan that would work to move things forward based upon those restrictions. As a member I am eagerly waiting to see how things develop.

I believe that the only restriction placed on the AFA president is the restriction of 3 decades of small thinking by those who have preceeded him. Having two board meetings a year is just one of those restrictions. The process by which ideas (motions) must be presented to the BOD makes progress difficult. The bigger the association gets, the slower it moves and the more money it takes to keep it moving.

George Geist

03-12-2006, 11:01 AM

Tom,
Do you think any real efficiency or productivity can be accomplished by a president or his entourage when the BOD is so huge? The last I heard there were around 50 of them. Many of them with clear conflicts of interest (school owners etc).

As you know by serving as an officer in your state association, most of these guys are there because nobody else in their respective states wants it. They must travel to these meetings at their own expense, if they show up at all their main concern is how long will this take and what's for lunch.

At first glance it would appear that all the committees should be helpful. I think all you guys with office or corporate backgrounds have plenty of tales to tell about uselessness of committees.

It would appear that the only 2 logical things to do would be to either radically reduce the BOD in size as well as implementing an ethics policy which eliminates all conflicts of interest. Or, rewrite the bylaws (for the 1000th time) to take absolute power away from them and give more decision making power to the executive committee.

Try to remember that it's almost impossible to get a small group of horseshoers to agree on anything as evidenced by these boards alone. Think about what it must be like having 50 or more horseshoers together arguing and I think you can see why things move at a snails pace and very little gets accomplished.

Ralph Casey has eliminated these problems by being a one man show. His BOD is hand picked by him and replaced if they disagree. Dictatorships, whether they be for organizations or countries, are very well run and efficient. Question is though is this what you and Gary and the rest of you all want for the AFA?

I believe that huge BOD is the root cause of these issues you guys have. Am I wrong in seeing it that way?
George

Gary_Miller

03-12-2006, 02:56 PM

I don't think the size of the BOD is a problem as much as the thought that the BOD has to approve everything but then they only have two meetings a year.

There needs to be input from the BOD on a monthly basis at least. This would mean some kind of a monthly board meeting. In this day of electronic media this meeting could be held as a e-mail confrence or an on line bullitin board tread or chat session where the issues could be discused for a set period of time then any voting on the issue could be done on line as well.

Don't we do this here all the time?

I would still suggest that the board meet togeather as they do now twice a year.

This would take some open thinking and some organization but would really be benifical to the organization.

I'm sure guys like, Tom and Baron, would know how to make this happen and work.

There are so many possabilites as long as people are willing to listen and think outside their own box.

Gary

Phantom Farrier

03-12-2006, 03:07 PM

I believe that huge BOD is the root cause of these issues you guys have. Am I wrong in seeing it that way?
George

George,
While we're at it why not just ****can the US Congress, The Senate and House of Representatives and completely destroy the balance of power all together then your dream of universal government in your face would surely become a reality.

If it were not for your BOD you would be facing a forced licensing scheme where you might have to give up your right to shoe horses or pony up the fees. Totally un-American and just another form of taxation without representation. Next time you see one of your BOD members remember to thank them for preserving your right to freely practice your trade under your personal set of codes and ethics.

Phantom :)

George Geist

03-12-2006, 08:16 PM

John,
The point I was making was that yes, even though entirely too many laws get passed every year at the state and national levels. The layers of bureacracy does stop a lot of things. This system was set up deliberately by the founding fathers to ensure that any change would be slow and legal. When politicians complain of so-called "gridlock" in Washington, unbeknownst to most people this is as intended. Through the use of senatorial courtesy and a thing called the filibuster, a minority can tie things up for years if not indefinitely. Tom and Gary seem to be very impatient with the AFA's progress speed. I was merely pointing out the similarities.

As for your statements about licensing. Youve already been elected there is no need to continue campaigning. You say if it weren't for the AFA BOD that we would be facing licensing now. How you figure that? There was never one bill introduced in any state legislature anywhere. The AFA cannot make licensing happen that takes an act of a state legislature. You know as well as anyone else that their 501(c)(3) status prevents their having anything to say about it. By the same token if such a thing was ever to come up in any state, THERE WILL NEVER BE ANYTHING THE AFA WILL EVER BE ABLE TO DO ABOUT IT!!!

Dont make it sound as if the AFA is protecting or safeguarding anything because their not and you know better.
George

Roy Amaral CJF

03-12-2006, 08:26 PM

If it were not for your BOD you would be facing a forced licensing scheme where you might have to give up your right to shoe horses or pony up the fees. Totally un-American and just another form of taxation without representation. Next time you see one of your BOD members remember to thank them for preserving your right to freely practice your trade under your personal set of codes and ethics.

Has the gag order been lifted? :eek:

http://home.comcast.net/~royamaral/gas.gif

Gary_Miller

03-12-2006, 09:38 PM

Tom and Gary seem to be very impatient with the AFA's progress speed.
It's not the speed of the progress it's the progress. There is none.

If the BOD could conduct business more regularly then the committee's working on issues could submit their ideas and desires to the board have a dicission made and move on to the next item. The board could also provide feed back, input and guidence to the committees which would ensure they are working on items of importance to the membership at large.

All you have to do is go to the AFA web site and look at the synopsis of the BOD meeting to see that no progress is really being made. It looks as if all that really happened was 47 changes to the by laws I have yet to compare the last bylaws to see what changed but from a quick look it looked as if all the BOD did is tie the hands of the EOC even tighter. Now where is the progress in that?

Well I guess we could look at the good points. At least the bylaw committee is doing something.

Gary

Phantom Farrier

03-12-2006, 09:57 PM

Has the gag order been lifted? :eek:

http://home.comcast.net/~royamaral/gas.gif

Roy,
I don't know what "gag order" you are refering to but this member is not bound by any gag order. Licensing won't be shoved down my throat or any one elses against their will. That's the only thing that makes me gag.

Phantom :)

Phantom Farrier

03-12-2006, 10:14 PM

John,
As for your statements about licensing. Youve already been elected there is no need to continue campaigning. You say if it weren't for the AFA BOD that we would be facing licensing now. How you figure that? There was never one bill introduced in any state legislature anywhere. The AFA cannot make licensing happen that takes an act of a state legislature. You know as well as anyone else that their 501(c)(3) status prevents their having anything to say about it. By the same token if such a thing was ever to come up in any state, THERE WILL NEVER BE ANYTHING THE AFA WILL EVER BE ABLE TO DO ABOUT IT!!!

Dont make it sound as if the AFA is protecting or safeguarding anything because their not and you know better.
George

George,

You may be right, but I copied this following statement off an AFA Membership renewal form from less than 10 years ago. "1. The AFA can help you protect your career. a. through it's government relations effort. b. through helping set up the conditions and standards under which members will practice. c. through reducing the cost of doing business, lobbying against government regulations and specific anti-business laws which would hurt your business.

Sounds a lot like an Association that cares about protecting my right to freely practice my chosen profession in what ever way I choose, doesn't it?

I have been spending quite a lot of time reviewing current and past policies - see where we've been so we have a clear pathway to where we are going. The AFA is at a crossroad and well positioned to emerge as global leader in the hoof care industry.

Phantom :)

Roy Amaral CJF

03-12-2006, 10:16 PM

From the Sept. 10 meeting-

3. Agreed that all future statements, advertising, and media related material concerning farrier licensing be halted immediately pending review by the Board of Directors.

You were making a statement about farrier licensing weren't you? Oops! That's two now. And we all "have it in writing". Sound familiar?http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/happy/happy0188.gif

Just messing with you Phantom. :p

Phil Armitage

03-12-2006, 10:43 PM

Jaye Perry

03-12-2006, 11:01 PM

George Geist

03-12-2006, 11:43 PM

beslagsmed

03-12-2006, 11:54 PM

Roy,
I don't know what "gag order" you are refering to but this member is not bound by any gag order. Licensing won't be shoved down my throat or any one elses against their will. That's the only thing that makes me gag.

Phantom :)

Phantom,
Stick to your guns. Here by Jan 2007 if you are not licensed or involved in a licensing program you can not work as a farrier. It will be very interesting to see how they plan to enforce it. The law that was passed cast a large net on the horse industry as well. It states the minimum standards for size of box, heighth of ceiling, how much a horse must be let out(minimum standards), states you can not own only one horse, must be a minimum of 2. My wife was ****ed because the new law states you must regresture if you use feed suplements, where you buy you feed(which she said she will never do). Personally I don't know the whole extent of the new law. You all are lucky, not bound by all this ****. Hope you keep it that way.

Mikel

Phantom Farrier

03-13-2006, 06:49 AM

John,
This came from a renewal form? Bear in mind that I am still a member in good standing and have always liked the AFA but that is laughable.

Government relations effort. Where? What have they ever done in the area of government?

Through helping set up conditions and standards under which members will practice. Again where has this ever happened?

Reducing costs of doing business by lobbying against government regulations which hurt business. I have never seen any evidence of this either. In fact since they like to take credit for the Pennsylvania vet practice act, this can be pointed to as a travesty. To have not gotten involved and did nothing would have been better than letting bad legislation get passed and claiming victory over it.

On these points I have to side with Gary Miller and Tom Bloomer. Either they have miserably failed in these areas, or that was the worst case of false advertising and bald faced lies ever printed on a renewal form.
George

George,
The truth is that when this form was used for renewal the AFA was in fact quite involved with the government through it's laiasson efforts with the USDA. The AFA enjoyed a mutually beneficial relationship at that time working with the government to ensure that it would be the AFA who would be considered final authority in shoeing matters. If you were a member in the mid nineties you might recall the term DQP (Designated Qualified Person).

If you don't remember, that's ok. I'm sure there are probably some lobbying restrictions now with our non-profit status, but I still don't know for sure. We are probably still the USDA's qualified authority and hold clout. I will check into what that relationship is at this time.

Phantom :)

tbloomer

03-13-2006, 08:01 AM

Tom,
Do you think any real efficiency or productivity can be accomplished by a president or his entourage when the BOD is so huge?

(DELETIA)

George

Any business brought before the BOD for a vote must be submitted 30 days before the meeting. From what I saw last year, most of the BOD does not look at agenda until they open their package at the meeting. I thought that the mid year meeting last year would be a wakeup call to the BOD. Maybe they would actually start communicating and take a more active approach. It didn’t turn out that way. That’s why I’m no longer a member.

I believe that Dave is trying to change that. I think he wants to get the BOD involved with more frequent communication. In order for this to happen the BOD has to cooperate by actually participating in regular meetings, perhaps via teleconferencing or Internet media. If Dave is successful in getting these folks to COMMUNICATE on a regular basis – at least monthly – I can see the AFA accomplishing something big in a very short period of time.

Taking the BOD from a passive to a proactive role in managing the affairs of the AFA is a huge task. Furthermore it removes all of the EXCUSES that the AFA has had in the past when accounting for their lack of progress. If the members of the BOD do not individually participate, communicate, and contribute when invited to do so (which is the status quo as evidenced by 3 decades of habit) then the AFA will continue to make progrESCARGOT as usual.

THamilton

03-13-2006, 09:20 AM

One thing that might not allow the internet/email to be a benefit is that fact that now you have written proof and records pf comments, ideas, suggestions and so forth that can be printed and passed around. This would cause them to have to take a stand and defend what they said. Could this happen for a long term?

Do those with "hidden" agendas want this? What about those that are trying to institute changes? Are they wanting comments made to one person passed along to another and then brought up to later haunt them?

Those with nothing to hide should have no fear. Character Grisom From CSI

I am not saying that is the case here. Do not get me wrong. I have been en elected member of a large board that used the internet/email capabilities to do business. At times it was difficult to read thins people were saying and things were taken out of context and then misconstruen. With a large BOD, might this happen? I believe so especially like someone stated about different agendas/ interests.

What saved us was the fact we could do business as we saw each other 2-3 times a month at different events. 2X's a years would not be a good thing if this were to happen. I beleivet hat it would help, but to what extent I do not know.

Tony

Phil Armitage

03-13-2006, 04:22 PM

[Phil Armitage]Dave, did you spend the night with Uncle Jaye and he helped you with the big words? That was really nice of him.

No Phil he didn't. WE spent the weekend helping farriers ,horse owners and vets. No long winded, $10 words or diatribes. Just helping OUR industry move forward.

Good for you Jaye, sounds like you feel good about it and did a nice thing. Next time keep the trash talk to yourself and stick to that new year resolution you made about being nice. If you have a problem with me you can tell me by e-mailing me privately like I requested from you in private awhile back. If you want to make this forum your stage to attack my character then you will get it right back.

Jaye Perry

03-13-2006, 08:34 PM

Good for you Jaye, sounds like you feel good about it and did a nice thing.
Do it everyday.

Next time keep the trash talk to yourself and stick to that new year resolution you made about being nice.
Trash, I did mentioned that Dave was not at my house, we were in another state . Along with a couple others from this forum in which we were sharing knowledge one on one.

If you have a problem with me you can tell me by e-mailing me privately like I requested from you in private awhile back. If you want to make this forum your stage to attack my character then you will get it right back

You have some serious confidence problems Phil. :o

Jaye Perry

03-13-2006, 09:14 PM

Dave, did you spend the night with Uncle Jaye and he helped you with the big words? That was really nice of him.
Hey Phil, I wouldn't start talking about someone bashing your character without first making sure you're not bashing someone else's.

While I am at Uncle Jaye's house now, I wasn't when I used the "big words". And if my English isn't up to your standard I apologize once again. I guess I'm too busy shoeing and trying to help others learn that I didn't have time to consult my dictionary before I posted. Next time I will be sure to do so. Meanwhile WHAT'S YOUR POINT?????

As far as I can tell, you spend more time talking about shoeing than you actually do shoeing itself. You talk about learning but are you really learning? How do you know you're learning? When's the last time you stepped out of your "comfort zone" in Maine, and showed people what you can do? When was the last time you actually had to "PUT UP, OR SHUT UP"? I don't think you've ever had to put up, or shut up, and that's why I think it's so easy for you sit behind your computer and attack me, and then whine when someone points out that you were wrong.

So in closing, while I may not know the definitions of all the words in the english language, I can, I will, and I have, proven my ability and knowledge of shoeing horses completely outside of "my comfort zone". While in contrast you can look in the dictionary Phil, but no one knows what you can do, or what you know or your ability to learn when it comes farriery.

Your invitation to Ohio is still open............

Dave Purves CF MBS
Deacon of the church of the painful truth.

(and yes, I'm staying at uncle Jaye's house this week, so if I need to use big words he can help me)