Lameness after being shod

[Claudine]

Need input on the following to help me decide what to do.

I had shoes put back on my mare 2/15 after having them off for the winter. Several days later, my horse was extremely lame on a hind foot. Farrier pulled the shoe and could find no hot nail. Vet out, but could find nothing definitive -- says it could have been a "close" nail, sole pressure, or an abscess. He did say she is a thin soled horse. Lameness improved once shoe was pulled, but there is heat in the hoof. I'm to soak daily in Epsom salts and give 1 oz bute once a day. In one week, if there is no sign of lameness, the shoe can be put back on, but with a pad.

Similar incident happened almost two years ago with the same farrier. Three days after a reset, my mare was head-bobbing lame on a front foot. Pulling the shoe improved her condition, but she was still sore. Per vet's phone instructions, I gave her Bute twice a day and turn out on soft footing (sandy arena) for several more days. She did fine on soft footing, but would limp if she took a wrong step on an uneven, hard surface. Vet came out and did a lameness exam and could find nothing structurally wrong. He recommended continued rest and turn out on soft footing, and after a week or two, if she was sound, replacing the shoe with a pad.

This mare has never been lame except for these instances. Both times have cost me considerable money in vet bills and critical time off from showing. I honestly feel my farrier messed up on both occasions. Everyone makes mistakes, and that is why I continued to use him after the first incident, but now I'm not so sure I should continue with his services.

Any input regarding this would be greatly appreciated!

[George Geist]

Claudine,
There are some horses that you can almost predict the time of year that they will come up with abcsesses and so forth. Seem to be most prevalent in the spring with the rain and mud.

Having said that I will say in regards to real legitimate shoer error, it happens. It happens to all of us occasionally. Generally speaking in most cases if the shoe fits the horse properly there should be no problem. I have stuck them already when I was trying to do one as he fought me and so forth.

Your vet is correct in that thin walled or thoroughbred types have less margin for error as well as the horses themselves being a bit more sensitive.

You didnt mention if you or your vet was opening up and draining the abscesses. This is very important to do because if you dont it will travel up the hoof and break out at the coronary band. This causes more pain and hoof damage than you need.

If he is just tight nailed and not abscessing, that can be a real pain in the neck to find. Sounds like you handled it well. I wouldnt be too hard on your horseshoer about it. It could and does happen to all of us. The only other thing I could recommend is that when this happens to get your horse a tetanus booster if he's not up to date.
George

[Phil Armitage]

Hi Claudine, your farrier is not makeing mistakes your horse is presenting a huge challenge and your lucky to have a farrier that is willing to take this type of challenge on, it is not fun. Thin walled feet that are even more prone to problems depending on the time of year, mud, bacteria etc. is a huge challenge. I have a few customers with horses like this and it is not any fun, I have been blamed for lameing the horses. After awhile you glad to see the owner change farriers and eventually you hear how the next farrier is also haveing problems. Sometimes things look like things are going well until your horse hits those times of the season where there feet are prone to problems again. A horse owner is lucky to keep a farrier when they have horses this prone to problems. The best way to handle the situation is to realise your horse has challenging feet. You could try alternative methods like barefoot, boots or glue on shoes, however your horse is what it is. Have you tried hoof suplements or hoof dressing, things that might help maintain healthy feet.

[Claudine]

Thanks for input. Here's my follow-up.

I don't understand how this mare is presenting a challenge and disagree that she is prone to problems. She's seven years old and has been in shoes since she started training at the age of two. The exception has been the last three months when I let her go barefoot. She's only been lame twice. Both times coming up lame days after being shod by the same farrier. The two different farriers the trainer used never had problems with her. Since she's a show horse, she is stalled with daily turnout, but not when it is wet/muddy. Stalls are kept in excellent shape.

I just spoke with my farrier and he agreed with the vet that she has a thin sole. I specifically asked him if she has a thin hoof wall, too, and he said no. She has a good hoof wall. He said he didn't want to say her lameness was due to anything he did, but he wouldn't rule it out either. He said he may have gotten a "close" nail.

I'm glad he called to see how she is doing. I've told him I'll keep him posted on her progress and will contact him when it's time to tack the shoe, with pad, back on. He's a young farrier, so I'm sure this experience will benefit him in the future.

[cynthia-jay]

A horse should not show up lame or sore after shoeing

The Farrier did make a mistake and my guess is a hot nail to close to the live sole

It happened once prior to 2 years ago and the Farrier was willing to come out both times to remidy the mistake

Your horse is also a challange combined with the enviromentals ect as stated

This horse could have moved ever so slightly ( to a slight jerk) to have this happen

This person does not sound like a hack to me

the pads suggest he may be removing a bit to much sole to balance this horse up a bit on a already thin soled horse especially from uneven wear barefoot thru the winter months

How is your horse other than these two incidents?

My guess is you are not having alot of difficulties with the shoeing/trimming department

Sometimes in an attempt to do the best job for a customer accidents like this occour

If the shoer fits the bill all the way around
I'd have to go with the above posters recomendations and keep this shoer

You could end up with some real nightmares as stated with bringing in a new individual if your horse has problems

best to you

as ever

Jay

[Phil Armitage]

Thanks for input. Here's my follow-up.

I don't understand how this mare is presenting a challenge and disagree that she is prone to problems. She's seven years old and has been in shoes since she started training at the age of two. The exception has been the last three months when I let her go barefoot. She's only been lame twice. Both times coming up lame days after being shod by the same farrier. The two different farriers the trainer used never had problems with her. Since she's a show horse, she is stalled with daily turnout, but not when it is wet/muddy. Stalls are kept in excellent shape.

I just spoke with my farrier and he agreed with the vet that she has a thin sole. I specifically asked him if she has a thin hoof wall, too, and he said no. She has a good hoof wall. He said he didn't want to say her lameness was due to anything he did, but he wouldn't rule it out either. He said he may have gotten a "close" nail.

I'm glad he called to see how she is doing. I've told him I'll keep him posted on her progress and will contact him when it's time to tack the shoe, with pad, back on. He's a young farrier, so I'm sure this experience will benefit him in the future.

Well there you go, your the customer and as the saying goes "the customer is always right" Right!! So I quess it must have been your farriers fault. I am glad we solved that problem, now we can all move on.

Your comeing across as if there were no other possible reasons why your horse is lame in her hind foot. Did she kick something? Is someone watching her 24/7 at every second to say she didnt? Who knows what happened, maybe stepped on a sharp rock right after being shod. So many things can happen other than your farrier misplaceing a nail.

[cynthia-jay]

Phil,
as far as 24/7:

I feel the Farrier made an honest mistake

and he also promptly and professionally handled it well

It happens to the best of them

Claudine:

with that in mind think of how many times this guy nails on other shoes ect

Twice in 2 years is not a reason to let him go

I wish you the best with this Farrier

as ever

Jay

[Phil Armitage]

Phil,
as far as 24/7:

I feel the Farrier made an honest mistake

and he also promptly and professionally handled it well

It happens to the best of them

Claudine:

with that in mind think of how many times this guy nails on other shoes ect

Twice in 2 years is not a reason to let him go

I wish you the best with this Farrier

as ever

Jay

Well said Jay, we all make mistakes, I prefer to say it is more of an accident not a mistake. Mistake show incompetence, accidents are not planned they happen and can happen regardless of how competent we are. The problem is, horse owners really do not have any idea of how difficult this trade is, the skills, comitment etc. and come across being a little too judgemental as if the farrier is incompitent or did it on purpose. Maybe the farrier made an honest mistake maybe he didnt really hard to say without being there and I like to side with farriers since we get blamed for things a little to often.

Oh by the way, I do not totaly agree with your comment that the thin soles might be caused by the farrier (geesh poor guy/gal), yes it can happen, however this is another situation that exists other than farrier work. Thin soles can be genetic or caused by abrasive footing in rideing arenas. I like to make sure people do not blame the farrier to quickly, that happens way to often and most of the time many farriers do not know what to say trying to avoid conflicts and looseing customers.

Here are scenarios that put us farrier into a jam and we face them little to often, not saying it occured here.

1. Horse goes barefoot and ridden indoors for the winter and not properly checked daily while being ridden. The feet weare too much. Short feet can be a bear to shoe and easier to quick. I can't tell you how many times I have said I don't mind trying barefoot but keep an eye on it and come back to see feet worn way too much because of abrasive footing.

2. Farrier sees possibility of quicking horse, however feet are sore and needs shoes, staying barefoot and takeing time off barefoot is not an option because rider needs to keep horse in training and condition and is paying board, instructor, equine message therapist and wants to ride. After all that is why they have horses and pay all that money right.

It happens to all of us and after awhile you don't suggest doing the right thing anymore out of fear of makeing the customer angry.

Anyways, I also hope all goes well and she keeps her farrier.

That is what these forums are for right, helping farriers and horseowners.

[Forgewizard]

Ideally a horse shouldn't be sore or lame after shoeing, but there are times when they will be. Especially if the hooves were not aligned well. I have seen instances where hooves with drastic medio-lateral imbalances, once trimmed for level, will cause the horse to move sorely. Without use of a scintigripphy machine or thermoscan, my supposition would be that the stretching of the ligaments and subsequent tendons and muscles ont he now levelled, previously short side of the limb are complaining.

A hoof shod too tightly will generally say "ouch" immediately as soon as the horse stands on it.

A close nail can take several days even a couple weeks to show up as aggravation. A hot nail usually much faster.

Claudine,
Talk to your farrier about the size of nails being used. From your description, if that were my shoeing - I'd suspect a close nail too. If the wall is indeed thin, the whiteline may be thin too. Using a thinner nail will be easier and may eliminate further troubles. ASk if the nail is a "slim blade" and what size it is. Several Thin nails on the market i am familiar with are :
Australian Slim blade 5, Capewell Slim Blade 5, Mustad E3 slim, Mustad JC1, the Australian, Delta and Cooper mfr.'s all make 4 or 4.5 race nails which are small nails ideally suited to thin walled hooves, but will require lighter shoes also.

Sounds like your farrier IS willing to follow up and IS concerned about your horse.

Unfortunately getting a "close" or "hot" nail is a hazard of this business. We all try to avoid it as much as possible, but it does happen. The area we have to nail to is only 1/8 inch wide and is angled, and has a grain of its own. We have to use nails actually designed to bend and we have to nail in a manner that forces the nail to go in tilted, drive straight, then curve out all the while into a movable, explosivetarget al the while balancing ourselves in a partial squat! It ain't exactly easy! But it sure is a heck of a challenge!

The unfortunate reality is that after a close nail, the horse WILL need some time off and there MAY be vet expenses incurred. Sinces a close or hot nail is NOT something done intentionally - it becomes an inherent hazardous possibility that is part of the horse owners responsibility when shoes are required.

If there is any scarring in the hoof from old injuries, the scar tissue can cause nailing problems.

Sounds like your horse is kind enough while shoeing- well, at least you haven't mentioned any behavior issues. But even still the hoof is a moving target.

Talk with your farrier to find out as much as you can about the shoes and nails being used.Do your very best to attend the shoeing procedure and whatch your horse's reaction while being shod.

Some thin soled horses will flinch when hamered but if the hoof is set down and the horse keeps shifting it, then there is something uncomfortable with the shoeing.

You may consider discussing glue on shoes for the hind hooves to avoid this issue in the future.

Hope this helps,
Regards,
Kim

[cynthia-jay]

Hi Phil

Honest mistake or an accident meaning the same thing

Unfortunately it happens and yes I have seen to much paring of sole
just removing a bit or the wrong size nails ect all of the above not meant to harm but trying to do a good job

I have also seen some of the very best shoers in this area loose a whole barn for shoes falling off (show barns) in the muddy season

It was justly unwarrented

untill the next shoe falls off from another Farrier as you stated...the next in line gets it :)

this Farrier does not sound like a hack to me
(and we have a few in this area)

best to you

as always

Jay