major problems

[tuffydoodle]

I have an 8 year old, big, heavy paint gelding. He has numerous problems so I'll try to be brief. He has severe allergies that I was giving him Dex for, last summer. He foundered on it. He also has an exaggerated broken back hoof pastern axis which the farrier has been trying to correct but it always seems to make him lame. He foundered again about 6 weeks ago, the vet took the heartbars off and put on lily pads, which made things worse. I took him in to a big vet clinic for x-rays which show no rotation, some navicular changes, no natural support in the heel area. He didn't block sound on heel blocks, he did block sound with his entire foot blocked. We put on elevated rail shoes with a pad that the farrier mixed up like silly putty. At that time we also injected him with Legend. Brought him home, kept him on bute for 7 days, took him off the bute and he went dead lame. The vet came out, injected more Legend and tiny bit of Depo-Medrol, no improvement. Vet came out last night, pulled the shoes, iced his feet, gave him more pain meds and told me to bring him in today and leave him as his x-rays don't look like he should be in so much pain. Any suggestions? The shoer in trying to correct the hoof pastern axis had used several different things, such as eggbars with rim pads but those crushed his heels and made him lame. He seemed to feel best in the heartbars.

[Roy Amaral CJF]

I have an 8 year old, big, heavy paint gelding. He has numerous problems so I'll try to be brief. He has severe allergies that I was giving him Dex for, last summer. He foundered on it. He also has an exaggerated broken back hoof pastern axis which the farrier has been trying to correct but it always seems to make him lame. He foundered again about 6 weeks ago, the vet took the heartbars off and put on lily pads, which made things worse. I took him in to a big vet clinic for x-rays which show no rotation, some navicular changes, no natural support in the heel area. He didn't block sound on heel blocks, he did block sound with his entire foot blocked. We put on elevated rail shoes with a pad that the farrier mixed up like silly putty. At that time we also injected him with Legend. Brought him home, kept him on bute for 7 days, took him off the bute and he went dead lame. The vet came out, injected more Legend and tiny bit of Depo-Medrol, no improvement. Vet came out last night, pulled the shoes, iced his feet, gave him more pain meds and told me to bring him in today and leave him as his x-rays don't look like he should be in so much pain. Any suggestions? The shoer in trying to correct the hoof pastern axis had used several different things, such as eggbars with rim pads but those crushed his heels and made him lame. He seemed to feel best in the heartbars.

I picked out the stuff that seemed important so far.

How about pictures of-
The horse
The feet
The radiographs

You said they reported no rotation but what about founder distance?

[tuffydoodle]

How do you post pictures? (actually, I can probably figure it out. Do they have to be on a host site?) I have lots of pictures of the horse but I can't get just his feet, he's at the vet clinic now. I probably won't see him today, the clinic is an hours drive away.

What is "founder distance"?

The x-rays show that he has no internal support so paring out a bunch of sole during trimming and shoeing is a big no-no, something my shoer had no way of knowing until now. There is no rotation or sinking, there are some changes on the navicular x-rays but that area, when blocked, didn't block sound.

I've been reading through some of the posts on this site and there is one, from calshoer, that really hit the nail on the head. The only different on my horse is that he doesn't grow much heel. It seems that the only thing that grows is the toe but when the shoer cuts off a bunch of toe, the horse goes lame, everytime.

"The foot can tell you a lot.
Given that she hads foundered, she probably needs ALL the protection under the edge of the coffin bone that a bare foot can offer. That means do NOT pare sole ahead of the frog apex. It may be safer to leave it all there, dead stuff included ,unless it literally falls out easy with the hoof pick.

If she is growing a lot of heel in between shoeings, she may still need it for some reason. Do not trim so much heel that she lands toe first.

Do NOT trim the hoofwal in the front half of the foot down to the level of the sole. Leave a sixtenth inch or more in the toe corners to help keep some pressure off the sole in those toe corners (where the bone is closest to the ground).
Be sure to roll the toe. You can do that only IF you left ALL the sole alone in the front of the foot,and left that little bit extra wall, so rasping the roll in does not get back into live sole. And getting a good roll in the toe will help preent her from growing so much heel.
Just some suggestions. Something here might ring a bell for you.
Patty"

[tuffydoodle]

http://images.yorkphoto.com/3463%3A%3A657%7Ffp338%3Enu%3D3246%3E%3B56%3E992%3E WSNRCG%3D32334%3A%3C7%3A2%3A%3B%3Anu0mrj

[Rick Burten]

That photo is not a lot of help. The horse needs to be on a flat level surface, preferably concrete or asphalt and without any restrictions(bitting rig, etc). Close up, ground level pictures of the hooves from all four sides need to be taken. Photos of the sole also need to be included. Overall conformation photos will also be helpful and if you can get some photos of recent radiographs, they too will be valuable.

[tuffydoodle]

You can see the broken back hoof pastern axis in the photo, it's the best one I have for that. I can't get any close-ups today, he's at the vet clinic, an hours drive away and I'm stocked up with kid activities all day. The vet did call this morning and he's encouraged, Tuffy (my gelding) seems to be showing significant improvement since we took the rail shoes off. When I go back over there to see Tuffy (he's staying a few days) I'll get pics.

[tuffydoodle]

These won't be much help either but thought you might like to see them. I took these at Tuffy's first founder.


http://images.yorkphoto.com/3463%3A%3B%3A%3C3%7Ffp335%3Enu%3D3246%3E%3B56%3E99 2%3EWSNRCG%3D323354%3A49%3B949nu0mrj



http://images.yorkphoto.com/3463%3A%3B%3A%3C3%7Ffp335%3Enu%3D3246%3E%3B56%3E99 2%3EWSNRCG%3D323354%3A49%3B94%3Bnu0mrj


http://images.yorkphoto.com/3463%3A%3B%3A%3C3%7Ffp335%3Enu%3D3246%3E%3B56%3E99 2%3EWSNRCG%3D323354%3A49%3B954nu0mrj


http://images.yorkphoto.com/3463%3A%3B%3A%3C3%7Ffp335%3Enu%3D3246%3E%3B56%3E99 2%3EWSNRCG%3D323354%3A49%3B957nu0mrj

[Forgewizard]

Well,

One thing I'll mention is that those particular heart bars aren't correctly desiged for the horse. The heart bar area should NOT cover the sides of the frog, nor go all the way to the point of the frog - which it might not actually do- but is tough to see in the photo.

When the heart bar covers the edges of the frog it will compress the artery that runs around the frog. Now IF the heart bar doesn't actually touch the frog- then you have no worries about shutting off blood supply, but then again you have no support either from the expensive heart bar application.

Not extending the heart bar to the point of the frog is to again ensure that the all important arterial blood supply is not pinched, as well as that there isn't constant pressure against the frog.

Ideally the heart bar will only work with the frog when the hoof is load bearing.

Regards,
Kim

[Ronald Aalders]

When the heart bar covers the edges of the frog it will compress the artery that runs around the frog. Now IF the heart bar doesn't actually touch the frog- then you have no worries about shutting off blood supply, but then again you have no support either from the expensive heart bar application.
Kim


Hi Kim,

Could you please explain why a heartbar made out of a little wider stock overlapping the sulci would shut off bloodsupply when it touches the frog, while a pour in hoof packing does not? Or are you effectively saying a pour in hoofpack shuts off blood supply as well?


Ronald Aalders

[tuffydoodle]

Actually, the shoes were applied with the help of x-rays and according to the vet, were where they were supposed to be. Tuffy did the best in those heartbars, it was when we put the rails on that he went so lame he couldn't walk.

[Ronald Aalders]

I did not see much wrong with the heartbars either. But what do I know? I do agree that heartbars may create a lot of pressure on limited areas. Personally I prefer hoofpacking like dental impression material, Redden's ACS or a nice not too unforgiving type of pour in hoofpack.

Do you have pics of the feet with the rail shoes applied? I'm interested to learn what the reason may be for the unfavourable response.


Ronald Aalders

[tuffydoodle]

No, I didn't get pics with the rails. I wish I would had, they were very interesting.

[Forgewizard]

Ron posted:
Could you please explain why a heartbar made out of a little wider stock overlapping the sulci would shut off bloodsupply when it touches the frog, while a pour in hoof packing does not? Or are you effectively saying a pour in hoofpack shuts off blood supply as well?
Sole pours are generally of materials that are flexible. Bar stock is NOT flexible. I believe I mentioned the importance of the heart bar not being forged to be in constant contact with the frog - even while the hoof is unloaded.:

Now IF the heart bar doesn't actually touch the frog- then you have no worries about shutting off blood supply, but then again you have no support either from the expensive heart bar application.

Not extending the heart bar to the point of the frog is to again ensure that the all important arterial blood supply is not pinched, as well as that there isn't constant pressure against the frog.

Ideally the heart bar will only work with the frog when the hoof is load bearing.
A sole pour will generally be flexible enough to NOT create the constant pressure that a solid bar would. However, if you run into a pour like I saw on a horse where the original farrier hadn't allowed the pour to set up flat. Yes, a sole pour CAN restrict blood flow!That pour actually bulged out below the shoe's ground surface. This still seemed to aggravate the horse even in our soft yielding sandy soils. Horse was constantly shifting her weight off bothe fore hooves- because both hooves were shod in the same manner! Horse is laminitic.

That particular shoeing package was a heart bar insert welded to a St. Croix Eventer then gutter mesh applied between the shoe and hoof, and the sole pour was done.

The heart bar extended well past the tip of the frog, but thankfully for the horse was NOT in contact with the frog at all!, However the sole pour bulging past the ground surface essentially acted like rubber ball stuck to the bottom of her hoof.

Removing that shoe and sole pour gave that horse immediate relief! She was able to stand solidly on her hooves.

Am I saying that sole pours are bad? Certainly NOT! Am I saying that heart bars are bad? Certainly NOT! But they need to be properly applied.

Heart bar applications are all individual for each horse, but do have guidelines for good starting points.

ANY clinician I have heard speak on heart bars will say do NOT put the bar OVER the frog point, or edges in order to protect this arterial supply. Of course if the heart bar is NOT in contact with the frog, then there are no worries, right? But then there is no support either - just shielding from the ground. Another comment from clinicicans heard often is that POORL:Now IF the heart bar doesn't actually touch the frog- then you have no worries about shutting off blood supply, but then again you have no support either from the expensive heart bar application.

Not extending the heart bar to the point of the frog is to again ensure that the all important arterial blood supply is not pinched, as well as that there isn't constant pressure against the frog.

Ideally the heart bar will only work with the frog when the hoof is load bearing.POORLY applied heart bars do more harm than good!

Sole pours also need guidelines for proper application - you can't just gunk up the bottom of the hoof and leave it be until next time. Making Play-Doh dams to prevent the pour from setting up under the tip of P3 on a rotated horse gives support but not pressure. Knifing out the set up pour to create a bit of concavity to the pour allows the hoof to function relatively normal, giving the sole room to flex and not become excessively compressed.

Hope this helps!
Regards,
Kim

[blueridgeshoes]

Kim,
Another reason the apex of the heart bar should not be set forward of the apex of the frog is that one runs the risk of applying too much pressure to the tip of p3.
Burney Chapman might be rolling in his grave when you say the heart bar should only apply pressure when load bearing. What is the point in using a heart bar then. The heart bar is designed so one can apply continuous pressure, loaded or not, with out compromising blood flow. A heart bar can be used for only load bearing, but one could easily just use one of the other materials we have available to us. Esco Buff uses about 1/16 inch of pressure when applying a heart bar, and I have heard of Burney using 1/4 inch. Are you suggesting that these two farriers applied the heart bar wrong?

Jake

[Forgewizard]

Jake posted:
The heart bar is designed so one can apply continuous pressure, loaded or not, with out compromising blood flow.
If P3 has rotated, or sunk to the point that the sole has become convex, then some horses do well in a heart bar shoe that has consistent contact against the frog, but this contact should be adjusted according to the horse. In instances like this the heart bar is actually physically realigning P3.

When we shoe the horse the hoof is in its "most snapped shut position" so the frog will also be in its most recessed position. If the farrier puts a heart bar shoe on with a LOT of contact while the hoof is unloaded, then when the hoof becomes loaded there will be much MORE pressure on the frog. If the heart bar is too far forward, or too wide, then this excessive pressure will compromise the blood flow to a hoof that already has a compromised blood flow.

Maybe that gives a more detailed description than what I posted previously:
Now IF the heart bar doesn't actually touch the frog- then you have no worries about shutting off blood supply, but then again you have no support either from the expensive heart bar application.

A heart bar should be applied according to how the horse indicates it is helping. My mentor instructed me simarily as you noted about the tip of P3, as I mentioned:

Not extending the heart bar to the point of the frog is to again ensure that the all important arterial blood supply is not pinched, as well as that there isn't constant pressure against the frog.
My mentor cautioned when applying heart bars (as well as several clinicians I've listened to) instruct to apply the heart bar shoe with two nails, let the horse stand on it for a while, then "read" the horse's reaction. The farrier will know when the heart bar is properly supporting the hoof when the horse stands easily and it is working especially well if the horse weights the heart bar shod hoof, and lifts the other!

If the horse objects to that heart bar adjustment, then the farrier needs o either increase, or decrease the angle of the heart bar, by removing the shoe and adjsuting as necessary.

I didn't say a WORD about Burney Chapman, or Dr. Esco Buff's heart bar applications.

I too have met with many successes when chosing a flexible form of heart bar support, over a rigid form. But I always ensure this flexible support desn't impinge the point of frog, nor extend over the frog edges.

Regards,
Kim

[Ronald Aalders]

Kim,

Shoeing to help laminitic horses is very difficult to say the least.

From your responses on this subject I never got the impression you handle laminitic horses every day. Not many shoers do. Next time you see a complicated shoe designed to handle a complicated problem like laminitis don't go around yelling your head off that those shoes "aren't correctly designed for the horse" without being very sure what you are talking about.

Least of all in the 'farriers helping horse owners' section.



Ronald Aalders

[Forgewizard]

Sorry Ron you are mistaken about my encounters with laminitic horses. While my practice isn't wholly made up of Laminitic horses, I do have my fair share of laminitic horses on my roster.

Some are helped with solid support, some with flexible support. Are you saying that it is ok to completely cover the frog from tip to back and edge to edge with a solid heart bar? As I noted in my post those photos aren't the best. What I posted are NORMAL guidelines given for application of heart bars- which is NOT what is evidenced in the photos.

Which part of my posts would you consider NOT helpful? And WHY shouldn't I post them in the farriers helping horseowners?

I did NOT YELL about the shoeing application, I merely posted what I saw should be different- much like I have on other posts - no yelling- just an observation!

regards,
Kim

[tuffydoodle]

Thanks for the input.

According to the x-rays (before and after shoeing), the shoes were correctly placed and the horse was very comfortable with them. He didn't go extremely lame until the vet suspected founder, pulled the shoes and put on lily pads, that's when I gave up and took him to the large vet clinic. After a long and tedious work-up, the vet and on site shoer decided the elevated rails and "silly putty" type padding (I don't know what that stuff is called) were the way to go but that's when Tuffy got so lame he wouldn't even move.

[Roy Amaral CJF]

I'm with Kim. The frogplate didn't fit. It becomes a real problem if the sole prolapses.

"won't even move"- still sounds like laminitis.

What are you feeding this big boy?

[tuffydoodle]

He gets 2 cups of crimped oats a day, with a heaping cup of farrier's formula and a dose of strongid c 2X. He also has free choice grass hay.

[calshoer]

OATS? WHY?
And feeding FREE CHOICE hay to a fat horse? Are you kidding??
Just because it is grass hay does not mean it is safe to feed free choice. Some grass hay can be as high in non fiber carbohydrates as 28%.... By dry weight. That's like feeding sugar cereal to a diabetic kid.
If you have not had your hay tested specifically for carbs you should not be feeding free choice. Go to www.safergrass.org for more information on finding safe forage for a foundered horse.

Also, I know that feeding daily wormers can be a controversial subject and I'm sure not a vet, but some holistic veterinarians that I know recommend not feeding it to foundered horses.

Patty

[Forgewizard]

Tuffydoodle,

Sounds like the horse preferred a more solid support. Lilly pads are usually a first response type help. I've often seen where if they are used for an extended period of time- they will scrub the back of the heels and create soreness there too.

I'm curious that the vet only "suspected founder" - I differentiate between a laminitic episode and founder as founder being when the bony column actually sinks and/or pulls away from the toe wall. Laminitis is still quite painful and can lead into founder- but doesn't always.

Like Roy mentioned the horse's refusal to move sounds like he still has laminitis issues.IF he was more willing to move with the solid support- I'd certainly lean towards a foundered hoof - which should show up with your vet's xrays rather nicely.

The problem with laminitis is one day it can be just laminitis, the next it can be founder. So the xrays done 6 weeks ago could easily be outdated.

Will you be putting the horse back in shoes with more solid central support? It's horribly frustrating working with these horses and getting the best shoeing worked out for them.

I'm glad to see a hoof supplement in use, while his hooves are trying to recuperate he'll need all the nutritional support he can get. Are you actually measuring 2 cups of oats per day? If that is all the oats he is getting and he still is staying heavy,then please get your hay analyzed! Have you access to other feeds specifically designed for laminitic horses? (High roughage, high nutrient, low carb, low proteing). Farrier's formula and the strongid CX are both alfalfa based supplements.

Is he still fighting allergies? Does he get any other meds? Does he seem to show more soreness in the broken back hoof than the other? Sounds like you are dealing with multiple issues which may be interrelated.

If the vet iced the hooves, does that mean there is still heat in them? Icing is beneficial IF the ice slurry is constantly applied for at least 48 hours straight and if the limb is immersed up to the knee. Cryotherapy is usually most beneficial during the acute stage of laminitis. Check out the information from Dr. Chris Pollitt on cryotherapy. www.laminitisresearch.org (http://www.laminitisresearch.org)

When you said your horse has severe allergies- what symptoms was he displaying? Skin irritations? Talk to your vet about "pemphigus". Which briefly described, is a problem where allergic reactions continue on to become auto-immune disorders for the horse. Laminitis is evidence of a systemic problem for the horse that can be triggered by many known factors, and some unknown factors. An attack on your horse's immune system (whether foreign or not) can result in a laminitis episode.

Hope this helps!
Regards,
Kim

[tuffydoodle]

Excellent information, all!

The vet didn't freak out with me feeding Tuffy the small amount of oats he's getting but I'll certainly take him off if you guys think it could be exacerbating the problem. He did ask me to stop giving him free choice hay if it was possible. I don't have the fences to separate him from my other horses right now but we are trying to get some more put in. We are in a burn ban situation right now and the city won't let the fence guys use torches to put in our metal rail fences. We had a ton of rain over the weekend so hopefully, things will change. In the meantime, I'll figure something else out. I hate to make him stand in a stall but if I have to, I have to.

No, I'm not measuring the oats and 2 cups is probably more than he actually gets. I just mix in a little with his supplements. Do you know of a brand name of a feed specifically for laminitic horses?

He's going to have to go to Texas A&M this spring for his allergies as nothing we are doing is working. During the spring and summer he just runs from tree to tree scratching non stop. Scratches his ears, his butt, lays down and rubs his stomach, etc. The steroids were the only thing that helped and he can't have that anymore. I'm hoping the guys at A&M can do allergy testing on him, figure out what-alls causing the problem and make him a serum. From what I understand, sometimes they can, as long as the horse isn't allergic to a million different things. It looks like culicoides (tiny gnats or "no-see-ums) are what's getting him.

You might have hit the nail on the head with the auto-immune disorder problem. I'll talk to the vet tomorrow about it. He's off today.

Both feet have a broken back axis but he does show more pain in the left front, as a general rule.

No, he doesn't get any other meds. I do give him Hist-All in the summer for coughing. I was hoping it would help the scratching, but it doesn't.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Take a good look at the laterals and see if there's any lipping. Or, palpate the cornary band to determine if it's concave or convex. If it's concave, he's sinking.

[tuffydoodle]

Would that show up on x-rays? He's at the vet clinic right now and they are taking daily x-rays.

Thanks, Tom.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

tuffydoodle in gray

Would that [lipping] show up on x-rays? He's at the vet clinic right now and they are taking daily x-rays.

"Lipping" describes an abnormal relationship between the hoof capsule and coronary band in which the top of the hoof capsule forms a distinct "lip" as the bony column sinks into the the hoof capsule. The condition is usually visible on a lateral radiograph.

[Katy Watts]

It looks like culicoides (tiny gnats or "no-see-ums) are what's getting him.


My horses suffered from culicoides allergy until I put them on 2-3 of freshly ground flax per day. Went from bloody, bald manes to normal. In your horses case, I suggest flax oil until you get his complete diet analyzed. You can also get stabilized ground flax as a carrier for trace minerals, which these horses need more off.

This horse sounds insulin resistant, and it dos runs in some Paint lines. Start soaking his hay NOW for at least an hour or two, completely immersed in a lot of water. Change the water every time. This can remove up to half the water soluble carbohydrates. People say it can make a big difference in just a few days.

Be careful with vaccinations. Only give those necessary, and then only one at a time, with bute or banamine day before, day of and day after.

Lots more information for you at my website.
Katy

[Forgewizard]

Tuffydoodle,

A feed co. in Florida (Seminole) makes a product specifically for laminitic horses with the label "Happy Hoof" go to www.seminolefeed.com (http://www.seminolefeed.com) for more info and whether they can ship to you. The feed doesn't look like typical feed- it is more of a chaff base (oat hay )with large crunchy nutrient pellets. It can be fed as the sole fodder for the horse, or as part of his intake.

Also peruse Katy's site at www.safergrass.org (http://www.safergrass.org) she has more feed info for laminitic horses too!

Also talk with your vet about giving him benedryl, as opposed to steroids.

Soaked beet pulp is a wonderful alternative to free choice hay. Dumping the water out before feeding, or even rinsing it again after soaking will reduce any extra sugars.

A grazing muzzle for him to pick his hay through may slow down his intake enough to trim him down, yet still let him chew all day long.

Regards,
Kim