Stand them up???

[Sukisuki]

Hello,

I have a TB with much better feet now than when I got him, 7 months ago. My farrier is great. She has had to deal with overgrown feet, cracks and a bout of seedy toe. On her last visit, a week ago, she said he is looking really good but just wants to stand him up a bit more. What does this mean?? This boy grows so fast and he seems to be growing equally all around. So my thought is 'why fix it if it isn't broke'. His feet look pretty darn good to me. What will standing him up more do for him, his feet and his overall movement?

I could post pictures if you need a visual. Thanks and I am still enjoying this board.

Tee

[Forgewizard]

Yes, pix please!:)

[Mike Ferrara]

You should ask the farrier. To my way of thinking when some one says that they want to "stand the horse up", they want more heel on the horse.

[Sukisuki]

Ok so I took pictures but they were too big for the site. Here is a link. Please excuse the bad angles. The toe shows how the seedy toe is growing out. Cracks are completely gone. Yippee!! I'm very lucky to have a great farrier. One heel looks shorter I think because I didn't brush the snow away enough.

http://photos.yahoo.com/thyramcgreevy

I hope this is accessable as its my first time with yahoo. Thanks.
Tee

[Forgewizard]

Sukisuki,

I understand what your farrier is thinking about wanting to stand your horse up- like Mike said- usually it means the farrier wants taller heels.

You horse has plenty of heel - it is just growing forward and crushing a bit. The outside (lateral) heels are also a bit longer than the inside(medial)hels on each hoof.

The toe cracks are from the hoof being too far forward and working to get the hoof growing back under the leg will help. Reduce the toe length and bring back the heels will help.

But I see something else in that Near fore hoof. That bulge at the front of the pastern at the top of the coronet band could be high ringbone, or an extensor process calcification. Feel it qwith your hand to see if the bulge is soft or hard or has any heat. Any heat and soft will indicate just a bruise which should go away. Hard and cold indicates a calcification which is now a permanent part of your horse's build.

Ringbone can be aggravating to the horse and cause lamesness issues at its onset or if it involves a joint. once calcified though, the horse just keeps keepin on. USUALLY getting the hoof to have as short a breakover as possible in all directions will be most beneficial to the horse. Often shoes accomplish this better than leaving the horse barefoot.

The horse will let you know if changing his angles wis helping or aggravating him more.

X-rays will give you a look-see into that area too.

Hope this helps!
Kim

[calshoer]

Horse horse already has too much heel.
It is growing/crushing forward, creating a false illusion of short heels, when they are really too long and smashed under.
If the farrier gets rid of the excess heel and leave all the frog he/she can, AND sets the breakover point back off the toe. (roll the toe more) the bones foot will actually get better aligned inside.
The front hoofwall is a very decieving thing when trying to see "angles".
It can not be used to determine if the bones inside are truly aligned.
As well ,leaving more heel to try to raise the hoof angle inside only unloads the frog. And the frog is a much more important structure to align the bones as it supports the coffin joint and holds it in alignment.
Patty

[Phil Armitage]

Horse horse already has too much heel.
It is growing/crushing forward, creating a false illusion of short heels, when they are really too long and smashed under.
If the farrier gets rid of the excess heel and leave all the frog he/she can, AND sets the breakover point back off the toe. (roll the toe more) the bones foot will actually get better aligned inside.
The front hoofwall is a very decieving thing when trying to see "angles".
It can not be used to determine if the bones inside are truly aligned.
As well ,leaving more heel to try to raise the hoof angle inside only unloads the frog. And the frog is a much more important structure to align the bones as it supports the coffin joint and holds it in alignment.
Patty

Patty, I think over all the feet look pretty good, considering what they started with. Anyways I am a little puzzeled by your frog pressure discription, I can understand trimming the heels to healthy horn and straight tubules, but Patty when you refer to frog pressure the first thing that come to my mind is shoes. Everytime we shoe a horse the frog is further from the ground than those underrun heels have it. Then if you take a NB alum. shoe holly cow the frog is on the moon. The puzzleing part is if your right about frog pressure then we need to put frog support on every horse we shoe. Just thought I would throw that out there.

[cynthia-jay]

Stand them up

in my opinion it is

aligning the muscular/skelatal structure to be comfortable and in align

which is also slang for balancing them up and getting the hoof under the horse

if you are happy now with your Farriers work then the Farrier sees room for improvement with this horse

good luck

as always

Jay

[calshoer]

Patty, I think over all the feet look pretty good, considering what they started with. Anyways I am a little puzzeled by your frog pressure discription, I can understand trimming the heels to healthy horn and straight tubules, but Patty when you refer to frog pressure the first thing that come to my mind is shoes
Phil, making more frog support (NOT frog "PRESSURE") can often be acomplished barefoot by just trimming off more heel, and leaving the frog alone so it extends barely past the trimmed heels. It is a 'give and take' loading, as the horse moves, not a constant pressure. There is a difference .
It has been do***ented (and in my personal experiences with getting Xrays on clients ) that better loading the frog by trimming more heel off can help align the hoof pastern axis internally by moving the distal end of p2 forward in the coffin joint. (lowering the pastern angle)
They often then align quite nicely without having to add any more heel (or wedges) to the foot. In fact in a lot of cases, removing heel is the key to better DIP alignment.
In a lot of cases,the goal is not so much trying to raise the coffin bone angle, it is to LOWER the pastern angle to match. And that is accomplished by loading the back of the frog.
3/16" to 1/4" inch of the VERY REAR inch of frog extending beyond the trimmed heels of the foot can do a lot, and will not cause pain to the horse because the extra frog is well behind the impar ligament.

As to the distance from frog to ground created by using thick shoes (NB aluminum for example) remember that compacted dirt is nature's frog support. Therefore if the foot can fill with tightly compacted dirt, it creates frog suppot withuot using any articificial materials. Of course the horse must be in a suitable environment for clean dirt to pack . If not ,then sometimes artifical materials are better. A lack of of frog support is a common problem with shoeing as we have known it in the past...it removes the necessary support in too many instances. Therefore in my opinion farriers *should* be using artificial frog support a lot more often.
Patty

[Sukisuki]

Thank you for your comments on my TB feet. I can see where his feet are growing forward. Should the heels be in a more straight up and down alignment? How long does it take for that to happen, do you accomplish this gradually over time, or should the farrier just lop off the heel some more? I think it would help me to visualize this if someone could mark up with arrows as to how straight up/down the heels should be.

Forgewizzard, I felt his "bulge" and can't notice any bulge. It feels flat and the same as the other foot. I added another picture taken that same day would you look at it, and do you still see a bulge? I will have farrier feel it to see if she can feel something I'm not.

On the sole view is there room to take off more toe? Or should it be rolled more? It is winter so the farrier said she didn't want to trim him too close. Meaning the same length as in the summer. Do you all tend to leave a little more hoof during winter months?? Just curious. Thank you all so much.

Tee

[Phil Armitage]

Hi Tee, I studied the pictures again and I would listen to your farrier, she is in a better posistion to see and feel the feet better and gain much more information than we can viewing picture. I think she is doing a great job, the feet look good.

[Phil Armitage]

Phil, making more frog support (NOT frog "PRESSURE") can often be acomplished barefoot by just trimming off more heel, and leaving the frog alone so it extends barely past the trimmed heels.

Yep, I already knew that, I think most farriers accept this now. Still one needs to be carefull about how much heel and bars they trim off or you just might be loading the wings of the coffin bone or loading a sore frog.

It is a 'give and take' loading, as the horse moves, not a constant pressure. There is a difference .

I think we can call this a theory, and it makes sense but I doubt we fully understand how exactly the foot needs to properly function in all breeds and in all enviroments. Because I can show you horses with absolutely no frog pressure or support at all and there feet have great form and function.

It has been do***ented (and in my personal experiences with getting Xrays on clients ) that better loading the frog by trimming more heel off can help align the hoof pastern axis internally by moving the distal end of p2 forward in the coffin joint. (lowering the pastern angle)
They often then align quite nicely without having to add any more heel (or wedges) to the foot. In fact in a lot of cases, removing heel is the key to better DIP alignment.

I have also seen this happen, more on feet the feet with negative palmer angle. I have also seen excellent hoof pasturn alignment with absolutely not frog pressure. So I quess it depends on the horse and the structure of there feet internaly and externaly.

In a lot of cases,the goal is not so much trying to raise the coffin bone angle, it is to LOWER the pastern angle to match. And that is accomplished by loading the back of the frog.
3/16" to 1/4" inch of the VERY REAR inch of frog extending beyond the trimmed heels of the foot can do a lot, and will not cause pain to the horse because the extra frog is well behind the impar ligament.

I think the goal should always be to maintain pasturn alignment as best as possible, if it appears to be grossly off and cannot be obtained by trimming and shoeing flat, then I am all for gaining it artificially and have seen good results by doing so. The hoof pasturn alignment in these pictures look pretty good to me or do you disagree? I would hate to confuse this horse owner and cause any problems with her farrier because of this.

As to the distance from frog to ground created by using thick shoes (NB aluminum for example) remember that compacted dirt is nature's frog support. Therefore if the foot can fill with tightly compacted dirt, it cre
ates frog suppot withuot using any articificial materials. Of course the horse must be in a suitable environment for clean dirt to pack . If not ,then sometimes artifical materials are better. A lack of of frog support is a common problem with shoeing as we have known it in the past...it removes the necessary support in too many instances. Therefore in my opinion farriers *should* be using artificial frog support a lot more often.
Patty

I will not argue that frog support and the function of the frog is a critical part of supporting the bone coloumb, absorbing cuncussion and aiding in circulation, however again not all horses seem to suffer from the lack of frog support and get along pretty good with shoes on and no dirt or artificial frog support. We need to keep in mind that there is a lot to take into consideration. After reading your strong argument on the need of frog support it could easly be assumed that shoes without frog support would compromise the integrity of the foot and cause misalignment of the pasturn. I have seen this happen, but I have also seen when feet are trimmed in manner to gain and maintain strong and healthy, bars, frog, sole and hoofwall the form and function of the feet improve shod or not.

Personaly I think too much is made of balance, frog support, breakover and it can cause a lot of confusion on the part of many horse owners. I think it is great horse owners take the time to learn and question the condition of there horses feet, however I am concerned that things get too complex and some of us seem to split hairs on what constitutes a good trim and shoeing. Breeding, enviroment, nutrition and genetics play a huge role and many times we have to be patient and use trial and error to find what is best. Sometimes the feet do not look right and the horse is sound, then someone comes along and attempts to make them look right and the horse goes lame. There are no absolutes and there is definately no scientific proof as to who is right or wrong, just opinions.

[Sukisuki]

Thanks Phil. I think he has nice feet too. I was just curious what 'stand them up more' could mean. I have complete trust in my farrier and think she has brought him a long way. I just want him to have good comfortable feet. Keep up the good work guys.

Tee

[Forgewizard]

Sukisuki,
Yes, thans for the second photo. I brightened it and cropped it to be able to view it more clearly. NO, I do NOT see the same bulge in the pastern as I did in the first photo. Maybe the "bulge" was just fluffy hair? Glad you were able to check that. I worked up the photo and below is a link to it explaining what I see in the hoof and lower limb.

By the way, How old is the horse?


Phil,

I'd have to disagree that these are examples of nice hooves. The heels IMO are grossly underrun or forward run whichever term you choose to use. This horse has other issues in his conformation which may make it impossible to achieve better hooves. But personally , I WOULD work towards getting his heels back to a more supportive stance, which would eventually "stand him up" a bit.

If it works here is the link to my worked up photo:
http://photos.yahoo.com/forgewizard

go to the "Horseshoes.com BB" album, photo is listed as "sukisuki BB"

Regards,
Kim

[Phil Armitage]

Sukisuki,
Yes, thans for the second photo. I brightened it and cropped it to be able to view it more clearly. NO, I do NOT see the same bulge in the pastern as I did in the first photo. Maybe the "bulge" was just fluffy hair? Glad you were able to check that. I worked up the photo and below is a link to it explaining what I see in the hoof and lower limb.

By the way, How old is the horse?


Phil,

I'd have to disagree that these are examples of nice hooves. The heels IMO are grossly underrun or forward run whichever term you choose to use. This horse has other issues in his conformation which may make it impossible to achieve better hooves. But personally , I WOULD work towards getting his heels back to a more supportive stance, which would eventually "stand him up" a bit.

If it works here is the link to my worked up photo:
http://photos.yahoo.com/forgewizard

go to the "Horseshoes.com BB" album, photo is listed as "sukisuki BB"

Regards,
Kim

I never said or meant that these are examples of good feet. Sorry if you got that out of what I said. These feet look good to me and as always that is a matter of opinion. Considering what this farrier started with and that these are probably inherently week feet I think her farrier is doing a great job and maybe can continue to improve them or at least maintain them. My point is lets not complicate things. We do not have all the information to honestly say what should be done with this horse. Obviously her farrier sees room for improvement. Go back and read where they started and it is obvious things are getting better and her farrier is on the right road.

As far as other issues with this horse, I am not sure how you get this from looking at a couple of pictures, the horse is standing on uneven ground and not sqaured up to properly access his conformation. Wathing this horse move would also be beneficial as part of the accessment.

Her original question was to gain a better understanding of what standing up meant. Personaly I would ask her farrier what she meant by that and what her plans are to achieve it.

I think Mike already recommended that. :)



Regards

[Forgewizard]

Phil,

when you posted :...I think over all the feet look pretty good, considering what they started with.

Those are the words which made me think you think these hooves are "pretty good". As there are no before photos to go from and as the OP asked for other folks observations that is what I offered.

I DO agree with her farrier that the horse needs to "stand up more".

DO you happen to know this horse personally so have inside information regarding how the hooves looked "before"? O r are you going on just what the OP posted regarding her before hoof conditions? Personally I believe that EVERY hoof no matter what place in the trimming or shoeing cycle has room for improvemetn (mainly because there is no such thing as the perfect hoof - or perfect horse).

Yes, I DO understand that her farrier has come a long way with the hooves and the OP is happy with the improvement. I also can see that the OP is hungry for more information which ideally should come straight from the source that instigated the need for the information, but apparently that part of the equation wasn't forthcoming. Or wasn't done to the satisfaction and understanding of the OP- so she inquired here.

I do believe that the OP is intelligent enough to realize that having many pairs of eyes view her horse will give her many different observations. I commend her for seeking more information from various sources - MORE horse owners need to do this!

Sometimes only listening to and believing one source of information will get the listener into trouble. Input from various sources can be sifted, filtered and the specific points beneficial to the individual's situation can be applied.

I'll PM you with what the other things are that I see in this horse so you can get a handle on my thoughts there. A couple of photos can tell a LOT about a horse. I didn't post those observations here- because the last time I did that (even though it can be very educational) there was a furor over saying things that would hurt people's preconceived and definitely veiled views of their horses.

Being able to evaluate the actual construction of the horse helps me do my work and when I explain what I see, this helps my clients understand their horses better and approach them in manners that help their horse.

Its a team thing.

Regards,
Kim

[Phil Armitage]

No Kim I did not see what the feet looked like previously. I went off this statement from the horse owner in her original post.

"I have a TB with much better feet now than when I got him, 7 months ago. My farrier is great. She has had to deal with overgrown feet, cracks and a bout of seedy toe."

I do not see any cracks, not overgrown, no seedy toe and I also do not see any flareing, dishing, jamming or shearing. All good signes of things going in the right direction.

I didnt answer her question on about what standing the horse up meant, because I am not certain what her farrier means either. Maybe she meant hoof pasturn alignment or as Cynthia Jay mentioned getting them under the horse more. Who knows, I agree with Mike talk to the farrier doing the work.