Traditional vs Natural Balance Continues

[Phil Armitage]

The Professional Farrier Magazine featured letters from Doug Butler, David Nichols and Gene Ovynick debating foot fads, traditional and Natural Balance ohh even leaches. The Big Guns are debating a debate that us little guys have been debating for the past how many years six to eight I think. I guess it is not important unless it comes from them, I say where the heck have they been? Get on these boards and talk, and don't say I am too buisy, we are all buisy and many of us are finding the time to get on here and discuss things. Probably doesnt matter anyways, would have to spend too much time trying to get them caught up.

[Stephen E. O'Grady, DVM]

The Big Guns are debating a debate that us little guys have been debating for the past how many years six to eight I think.

Phil - you're not a little guy. If you have a sound knowledge of the basics of hoof trimming, you're right with the "big guns".

Steve O'Grady

[FrankLaursen]

I reread those letters again.
I find it hard to believe that someone that is in the position to guide our profession in the way Doug Butler has and can, continually has to resort to ill-informed arguments that have been debated a thousand times,
I also find it hard to believe that he can on one hand say the certain stuff is good to one source and to another, rip it a new one! I guess it all depends on the audience. We are all very aware of the image that we play in making this business look and be professional, but how can we win if the people that are suppose to be at the top can't act up to the task. What does that do for the image that we (as farriers) have worked so hard to get? How can we take someone seriously if he has to call the technique we are suppose to look at and call it "Natural BS" that is not only inflamatory but extremly childish.
This whole thing reminds me of the debate class in 6th grade he said, she said. I really get the impression that this has turned into a personal argument rather than a professional debate over a way to look and shoe the foot

Frank

[calshoer]

What dissapointed me the most was Dr. Butler's reply to the responses from David and Gene. I thought both responses were careful to address the individual points which they felt were inacurate or uninformed.
But Dr Butler responded by claiming they did not address the points at all :confused: but rather that he felt attacked personally.
It is really sad in my opinion that he could not see what they had really written.
Patty

[Bill Adams]

Phil,
I believe we "little guys" may be more qualified to comment on the "fads" as we don't have any books, shoes, clinics, or focuses to sell, schedule or fill.
We are out there every day trying to make each horse feel, move, and work better. What ever tool will help do that is a good tool.
I don't use NB principals because Gene is such a nice guy or because Patty "frightens" me into using them.
Because I see the benefits of NB, do I forget the dozens of foundational skills and countless helps I learned from Dr. Butler?
Looking at this stuff objectivly, I think all these "opposing" methods actualy complement each other. Maybe we just need a big group hug and then get these brilliant (no sarcasm here) minds together. These folks really are sharp.

Speaking of group hugs, how 'bout "our" Sox!! It is do***ented on this site, somewhre, that I said after game two, that they would take the Yankees in seven. Helloooo Danvers.

My $0.02,
Bill

[Gordon Derry]

I may be crazy but what ever happened to the theory an old blacksmith once told me----- trim and shoe the foot as the that foot should be. In other words there is probably a time and a place for all methods, are job is to decide which to use and when. Gordon

[2R Farrier Services]

I may be crazy but what ever happened to the theory an old blacksmith once told me----- trim and shoe the foot as the that foot should be. In other words there is probably a time and a place for all methods, are job is to decide which to use and when. Gordon

Well said by the "old blacksmith" Gordon. We must continue to think for ourselves given individual situations!

[Mike Ferrara]

I've been lurking here but haven't posted so I'm going to jump in here and introduce myself at the same time. ok?

First of all, nice site. I've already picked up some good stuff.

I started shoeing horses around 1980. I didn't go to school. I just worked with a guy by the name of Bob Lanners for a couple of years before going on my own. Bob does mostly saddle horses but some of everything.

I shod horses full time for a few years but got married, had some kids and decided I needed a backup in case my back went so I went and got a degree. I took a job and went to shoeing part time...well, sometimes it was full time but at night.

I was transfered to Indiana where I didn't know any one with a horse so I didn't shoe for a couple of years.

I ended up with horses of my own and wasn't impressed with the work I saw in the area so I took care of them.

I've recently started taking customers again and I wouldn't mind finding some one to work with.

Sorry for the long winded intro and now to the subject of the thread.

Please feel free to consider me as some one who doesn't know anything...but I've still shod some horses. There's been an awful lot writen in recent years that I haven't read and when I started poking around (I didn't have any internet when I was shoeing before) I couldn't believe some of this stuff.

There's always been some wacky stuff in print and I used to hate it when some customers would read too much. You know? The ones that have a healthy sound horse but all of a sudden want it done completely different because of something they read?

Anyway since I know so little, I'll lay the meat of my theory out in very unscientific terms. If a horse looks comfortable they usually are.

In the last few months I think (at least I hope) I've read about everything there is to read about trimming a foot. But come on...when a horse has 1/4 inch to take off...how many different theories do you need to apply? I've been feeling a bit inadequate because I haven't usually used an x-ray machine and a pair of calipers to precisely locate the break over point.

When a horse has a problem, I've found that some of my sure fire fixes work and sometimes I've had to do the exact opposite to make it work. In that regard it sometimes seems more art than science.

Not to discount science but in so many of these studies I read about there are just too many variables that aren't controled or accounted for, not to mention the sampling techniques. They might fly in a magazine or on the net but you'd have trouble getting a significance test past a good QA guy.

I don't mean to put down any one method or theory and remember I don't know anything anyway but it seems that if you take too much of this too seriously you'd pick up a foot and not have a clue where to start.

Am I completely lost in the high weeds? Do some folks with letters after their name and not enough horses to shoe like to hear themself talk?

And what's with the bunch who won't use nippers or shoes? LOL. You don't really have to answer that BTW. My two horses are barefoot right now too.

Well, nice to meet every one and sorry for the long winded and opinionated first post.

[Mike Ferrara]

Funny story...

A few years ago when I first moved to the area a friend wanted to introduce me to some one he knew who owned a stable. He had heard that she needed some horses taken care of because her regular guy had a bad back.

She asked all kinds of questions which is ok. I gave her a long list of people I had shod horses for and told who I learned under and so on.

She then proceded to tell me that her regular farrier wasn't a farrier. He was an Equine podiatrist. He had a PHD in equine podiatry. I guess I'm showing my ignorance again but I hadn't heard of one of those. I told you I've been away for a bit.

While we were talking I watched as the grooms came in and out with horses getting them ready (for what I don't know) and putting them away. I couldn't help but notice the feet. Funny how farriers always look at the feet first. I noticed that "equine podiatrist" is not necessarily a term used to describe some one who can fit a shoe and drive a good nail and I was confused about just why she was so impressed with him. I wanted to ask but didn't.

[Jason Maki]

Mike,
I really like your writing style. Anyway, Indiana has a great group of guys in the Indiana Farriers Association, Danvers Childs lives in West Laffeyette and I am sure he could help you hook up with some good guys. I can think of three or four off the top of my head-Scott Cheney, Matt Gillis, Troy Price. I am sure anyone or all of these guys would help you learn. The best bet is to join the IFA and then join the American Farriers Assoc. (www.Americanfarriers.org) and attend and do as much as possible. The best thing about this site, and the associations is there are no secrets, and you can learn and share everything. We do not always agree, but I know for sure I have learned a ton. Welcome aboard and contact one of the folks above, dive in the water is fine!
Jason Maki CJF

[Mike Ferrara]

Mike,
I really like your writing style. Anyway, Indiana has a great group of guys in the Indiana Farriers Association, Danvers Childs lives in West Laffeyette and I am sure he could help you hook up with some good guys. I can think of three or four off the top of my head-Scott Cheney, Matt Gillis, Troy Price. I am sure anyone or all of these guys would help you learn. The best bet is to join the IFA and then join the American Farriers Assoc. (www.Americanfarriers.org) and attend and do as much as possible. The best thing about this site, and the associations is there are no secrets, and you can learn and share everything. We do not always agree, but I know for sure I have learned a ton. Welcome aboard and contact one of the folks above, dive in the water is fine!
Jason Maki CJF

Thanks.

I'll look some of these guys up.

[Phil Armitage]

Welcome aboard Mike!

Hey Bill, how about what the group of Doctors and podiatrists did with the Red Sox Pitcher Kirt Schilling? Stitching the skin in his ankle to his tendon and fitting a brace and shoe that would enble him to perform without adjusting his mechanics. Makes me think of what Jaye Perry keeps aludeing to when dealing with the whole horse not just the foot. Of course this is all temporary and a band aid however it is preventing other problems as he performs if he were to compensate or change his delivery.

I agree with Steve and Bill, I have gotten more from everyday farriers and the beauty of this site is that it gives us a way to share things and ask questions. I met Gene Ovynick in person and I believe he feels the same way most of us do, all he is trying to do is come up with ways to deal with problems that many would think are hopeless. I also recently met a retired horse Vet. who is a great horseman from Gene's home town and we talked about Natural Balance. He said he didnt know much about it, but said he recalls what a very careing and hard working Farrier Gene is.

Speaking of Balance here is a little story I have to share, that pretty much keeps me focused at my task at hand and why I like this profession so much. I was explaining to a little girl this morning how she needs to be carefull with her older horse and take the time to warm him up, she called me last night becuase he was off and had heat in his foot. This morning I looked at him and he was fine, I pulled out some pictures showing the bones etc.. and gave her an anatomy lesson and how the horse can't land properly due to joint paine and I showed her what and where the pain is and what it does to the joints and how it affects the way he moves and the way his foot lands. She understood and looked at me with tears in her eyes (almost made me cry) and said, she had no idea how many bones were in the bottom of the leg. I told her he is going to be fine just getting older like me and needs to take things slow and be warmed up before he works. I also told her like me he still wants to be active and have fun (got a big smile after that comment). I also gave her a pat on the back for being a very good horse gal and very observant and that she is the best thing that has happened to this horse. This particular horse has been around for a long time and has taught many little girls how to ride and has taught me alot about a big heart and Balance. When I say Balance I mean the whole horse, disposition of the horse, rider, the job there doing and there enviroment. That is what Balance means to me. He is a safe horse for kids and loves people, I will do everything I can to help him out, even 2:00 in the morning if I have to. This horse deserves it, there are many like him around that only need a little TLC and try different things to make them comfortable, it is worth it. Doesnt have to be expensive, sometimes the best payment I can recieve is the satisfaction of helping out good horses and people, there always at the top of my list.

[Mike Ferrara]

Thanks Phil...and good post.

[the swede]

Hi!
phil that is a really heartwarming story, i shoe a few old fighters like that!

sigge!

[Bill Adams]

Hello Mike F,
Welcome aboard,
You are so right about new methods and studies being skewed to one's own purpose. The barefoot only crowd shows that if one has their mind open too far, the brain can fall out.
Likewise a closed mind will keep useful information unused.
Dr. Pollit (sp?) just two years ago found the cause of founder, a subject that has had new findings for a couple of thousand years now.
When I've heard new theorys about trimming and shoeing that made sence to me, I went out and applied them, and found that they worked, or not.
The interesting thing is that as I explain the "new" way to a client they'll say that that was the way their Grandfather shod his pack string, and would argue with the local horseshoers that lowering the heels and holding back the toes made the horses work easyer and longer with less lameness.
Now this was not a scientific study, but he did run a thirty horse/mule pack business from the mid-fortys through the mid-sixtys, in the southern Oregon mountians. Also the third genaration catle rancher who wears out the heal-toe corked shoes on three horses by himself in six weeks on his six thousand acer ranch, mentioned (with out prompting) how his horses didnt seem to get as tired since I started shoeing that new way, and when they were wore out they didnt stumble or forge as much.
The main opposition that I hear about NBS is that this guy thinks he invented brakeover, this guy says it's natural and wants you to buy a bunch of steel and plastic, this guy's shoe looks like the one in an old book from the 1800's, this guy just want's to get rich selling shoes.
I've met Gene O. and found him to be verry humble and dose not claim the stuff he's "charged" with, though I wish he would get rich and cut the price of his shoes so I wouldn't have to make my own out of Eventers.
Another thing I see is that all the "new" ideas, NBS, Four Point, Ducket's Dot, UST, etc. all complement each other, and most of the criticism is quite lacking in fact or study.
As to shoeing the "normal, sound horse" in a tradisional way and using the "new stuff" on the lame, why wait? Why not shoe in a manner to prolong their usefulness? Much of the products and training for pro athletes are preventitive in nature, that happen to improve performance. Do we want to go to a knee surgon who want's to do it the way they did it in the good old days? Alot of the old tools are nessary, and the knowledge to use them should be second nature to us.
I happen to think, as is well dock-u-mented on these boards, that we should allways shoe hot. Can't get no more old fashioned than that, unless you use coal, which I'm learning.
my $0.02,
Bill

[squirenubb]

Hey everyone,I've read some of the replies and it sounds to me like there's alot of good careing and experienced shoers and farriers out there.I'm fairly new at this and have been tryin to learn as much as i can to take care of my horses feet.I took a short course at a local college and assisted the instructer a few times,mostly just trimming on my part but i really respect and admire the instructer who probably has 40 plus years of experience.I dont know m,uch about the differant techniqes but i have been reading and tryin to understand the n/b method and thats also the method im tryin to use when i trim my horses feet.I have a 4 yr old qh that i bought from a breeder whos pasterns in his front legs are way out front,plus hes got long toe low heels and flat footed,It may sound like the horse should be lame but hes not.I trained him myself with the limited knowledge that i have [had] because the breeder couldnt even tell me if the horse was ever ridden.Well i think i learned more from him than he did from me.Anyway im not havin him shoed right now ,im trying to follow the nb method for trimming to see if his hooves grow out better than they appear to be now .Also another condition that i've noticed is the angle of the front hooves changes.The angle looks good and healthy till about half way down or more and then it gets a little more extreme,this from what i've read means that p3 has probably moved some in the hoof.I'm not riding him that much right now because im lookin to see if his whole condition,hooves and pasters improve.Am i on the right track with nb trimming? thanx,Greg Eastwood/squirenubb3@aol.com

[Dave Purves]

Hey Greg, congrats, on learning something, as you have or will read, on these boards you will hear many different opinions on many different things, and depending on the farrier, thier location, and the type of horses they work on, they are all probably right, in one way or another. I personally don't subscribe to the NB shoeing protocol, it doesn't work for me all of the time. some horses I work on may get a modified "NB" type trim and shoe fit, but I've seen bad results from competent farriers in my area that are using the NB shoeing protocol. That doesn't mean that it won't work for you or your horse, only time will tell. The biggest thing a farrier needs to figure out is what works for him or her and the horses they work on. This means riding around with other farriers and seeing different methods, attending clinics and seminars that teach you the ideas behind the different methods, and you can take or leave what you want. In most cases, the really good farriers have a good combination of all the different methods and protocols. I've met some of the best farriers in the world, not contest farriers (though, they are great) but Olympic team farriers, canada, britain, ireland. These guys have some serious responsibiltiy when it comes to keeping horses sound in extreme conditions, and not one of them ever said, I use NB or perimeter fit, or a four point trim, or trim to usl. They do whatever is necessary to keep those upper level horses going at that level. Before you decide to buy into one particular method, make sure you get the facts about all of the methods from the best farriers you can find, and then I think you will find that a good mixture of all is the way you will best serve the horses you are working on.
Dave Purves CF :)

[Mike Ferrara]

Sheck Exley (not a farrier but an early and world class underwater cave explorer) said "What works...works"

[Bill Adams]

Bill Adams, renowned smart mouth, once said; "what works better... works better".

[the swede]

Hi!

I think that the BIGGEST problem with all the diffrent methods is that they become like a religion, and the "preachers" say that their way is the only one! and they all get their followers. (damn crazy if you ask me!!!)

In order to make a lame horse go sound or keep a horse staying sound, It is up to us to try anything and everything. That is why farriery is both an artform and a sience!!!

Just my opinion.
Sigge!

[squirenubb]

Thanx for some more wisdom ,your words made since to me,and since everyone has a little quote to add,heres mine,,,,,,,,,,,,invenio veritas,doc Hollidays reply to Jonny Ringo in the movie Tombstone,which means-to discover,or find Truth.I think thats what we are all lookin for.,,,,Thanx again Mr.Purves

[caballus]

We find real truth in each moment we're with a horse.

--caballus

[Bill Adams]

So true, so true,
Sometimes I'll be working on a horse and BAM! something will come to me, or I should say I'll come to.
Thank goodness for first aid kits.
Bill

[Red Amor]

Good morning all

Yep theres no doubt about it the horse is one way or another one of the greatest attitude adjusters Ive ever come across;)

[mwmyersdvm]

Interesting thread. Just wanted to make a couple of comments.
I am not aware that the specialty of "Equine Podiatry" formally exists where a PhD is conferred. It has been discussed to become a boarded specialty in the veterinary community. I think this woman's farrier was being a bit less than truthful.
Secondly, I would like to help out all farriers in regard to NBS prices and making them out of cheaper shoes. I would advise buying the NBS and appropriately charging the client. When you make these yourself, you will invariably under charge for your time, your most precious commodity, and then feel slighted over the long run as you don't feel adequately compensated for your work (and you are right). I use the GE The****utic shoes, Redden's shoes and NBS and I charge accordingly. I am not going to spend a lot of forge time that the client won't pay for when I have a premade product ready to go.
I recently had a woman tell me she had never paid more than $120.00 to shoe her horse after I had given her a $160.00 bill for a reset. Her initial shoeing was about $270.00 from me (which included sedating the nut). I did not justify that ignorant statement with a response of any kind. Her horse was lame from poor farrier work and if she isn't smart enough to determine this after all of the time I spent with her, I really don't want her as a client.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

[Phil Armitage]

Holly cow Doc. have some mercy, $110.00 difference between new and reset and calling a lame horse a nut??? :D