is this a perpusely false statement meant to mislead horse owners looking for hope ?

[drafthorseshoer]

I am going to quote from a clinic sheet sitting on my desk in front of me.
I will not mention anyones name(so please don't ask)
I mention the AANHCP in the following paragraphs but only in the text this person has written. Reference to the AANHCP is made by and used by the person who wrote the flyer and I am quoteing her/him verbatum from her own written sheet.
I am NOT stateing this is related to any other AANHCP member.

My question is; Where does honest interest in providing good hoof care transform into misleading statements that will not only give false hope but lure owners in who just aren't aware enough to know the difference ?

I believe barefoot is very good, "when it can be achieved."
I also believe that shoe's have an intrigal part in hoof care and should be used when the need is their to protect a horses hoof from a variety of things.

With that said let me show you what a hoof practisioner is sending out for flyers to draw in customers:
Clinic; "Guide to Natural Hoof Care & Hands On Trimming"

Presenting --- ------ a certified practitioner of the American Association of Natural Hoof Care Practitioners.
History ------------
P.M. session : one on one with --- and your horse
Participants will be trimming their own horse with supervision.

Learn how to recognize hoof problems, trimming techniques, and functional movement of your horses hooves.

"A word about our model" The wild, Free Roaming Horse.

(here is where I have a problem with misleading unfactual information being presented to the unknowledgable public. !)

"A bare foot horse is a marvel of the natural world. such a horse can move
rigorously and without pain

(How do you know this ? simply an assumption)

over the roughest of terrain(such as a wild horse).
and without any hoof protection except what nature has given him from birthright.

(horses in the wild who have pain or hoof problems are eaten by predators or die and rot away, like any of Gods Creatures do and have done since the begining of time!!! That is why you don't see them very often)

He lives his life without shoes and his feet do not suffer from it. Hoof disorders that plague his domestric cousins everywhere are unknown to him.

(this is so misleading that it infuriates me)

Are these Super Hooves genetic flukes ? Through genuine natural hoof care and natural horse keeping practices your equine can enjoy the same healthy tough hooves.

(are you saying every wild horse has healthy strong super hooves and not one ever never has any kind of soreness or damage ? )

Let the Skilled hoof care EXPERTS of the AANHCP(american association of natural hoof care practitioners,) show you how to transform your horses feet, even if they are brittle and weak or SUFFERING from an INCURABLE DISEASE, into the natural hooves nature has intended all along.

(Suffering from an INCURABLE DISEASE this person is claiming she and includes the members of the AANHCP can cure and make "natural as as nature intended.)

I am not looking for an arguement nor am I disclaiming the good going barefoot for a horse can be.
What I am strongly disagreeing with is the FALSE CLAIMS and the MIRACLE CURES this person is sending out to the gullable horse owning public.

People are flocking to this Guru of Magical Wonders, and paying this person big bucks.
This person isn't a hoof care Expert/Practitioner/Specialist, This person is a FLIM FLAM MAN/WOMAN who is out to flease the horse owning public with a line so good they open their wallets and throw their money to him/her.

I convince most of my customers that barefoot is best when I can(and I only shoe Draft horses and Mules, but not at anytime do I mislead or make statements that are false.
If your going to offer something then do it with HONESTY AND INTEGRITY and I will welcome all idea's and concepts for inspection and a try out.
Try to flease me and I will fight tooth and nail to bring it to the publics awareness.

Baron if this comes under any of your restrictions then please delete and let me know. I have tried to keep it within the proper bounderies of your forum.

Bruce Matthews
Northeast Drafthorse Shoeing LLC
(the opinions above are mine and are not of the members of the VtFA)
Vermont Farriers Association President

[ShoerChar]

in my personal opinion, i think that *responsible horse care* means being aware of all options available to your horse, and knowing the pros and cons of said options. unfortunately in this world there are many gullible, narrow minded individuals that will be led on by very talented *talkers*. Its sad that things are this way, but that just isnt going to change. As far as the whole barefoot movement, okay it has its advantages for SOME horses, for others it may not work as well or even work at all, this is no different than something like penicillian (sp??) yeah, its like a miracle cure for all kinds of stuff, yet for some people who have an allergy its deadly. (i am not saying that going barefoot may kill horses.....)

not to knock or promote the barefoot stuff, but in this particular instance, i would have to say that it is a strong statement with carefully chosen words to attract those types of people that are easily swayed to jump on the latest bandwagon, not necessarily to *mislead* anyone, just encourage them more to one side of the spectrum by presenting all the pros, and none of the cons. I liken alot (NOT ALL) really pushy barefooters and clinicians to those Televangilist (sp??) guys on tv that want you to send them money so they can keep working their miracles.

All that is my opinion, no one has to agree with me. I personally hate having stuff rammed down my throat and hate being told that its the best and ONLY way to go, i would like to determine that for myself once i have examined all components of it.

That said, i think its important to take everything you hear, read or see with a grain of salt, and not jump to conclusions about anything just because one person says *thats the way thats best* Its important to stay open minded about everything and sort of cross-examine it before jumping to conclusions. Alot of my clients keep their horses barefoot, i have a few laminitic horses that are now quite comfortable barefoot, but just because it worked for those horses, does not mean its going to work on all of them. When my clients ask what is better barefoot or shoes i just tell them whatever works best for the horse and what they are doing with the horse, and if they notice anything between trims/resets that troubles them i encourage them to contact me asap. There is alot of things that they may see in the interval between my visits that i may not be able to pick up on.

long winded enough?????

[tgavette]

hi Drafthorseshoer,I can only tell you how much it bothers me with all of the nonsense that surrounds the equine world.from my view it angers me so much.I have been around livestock all of my life.On our ranch we have over 120 horses.Our horses run free over many miles of land when the are young,we dont worry about this,that and whatever it is they tell you to worry about.when the horses are ready to go to work we shoe them.It does not matter if their job is a ranch horse or is to be sold, we put shoes on them to protect their feet,this is not anything new.I dont understand why someone would say shoeing a horse is bad.I cant listen to all nonsense out there,as a farrier I see and hear crazy things everyday,most of it coming from people that seem to think a horse is a new item to our planet.I think the biggest problem is they have no real knowledge of horses.I read a post on this site that said you should only brush your horse once in a while?where did that come from.We use our horses! there for they get brushed and I can tell you all their coats shine.I just wish these people would wake up and realize there are real horsemen/horsewomen out there that were tought from people that truly know horses.I am not for or against the barefooters but I can tell you the land we ride tells the truth, miles of scab rock.I had a friend that wanted to come gather cattle with me on the ranch,when he showed up I noticed his horse was barefoot on the hinds and told him we better get some shoes on the back of that old guy,he told me not to worry,that this horse has never had shoes on the hinds and was tough as they come.Nine miles into the scab rock my friends horse was done gathering cattle forever.The reason we shoe horses is to protect their feet there is no getting around it! It doesnt matter how many people try to make money from horses by coming up with new ideas in footcare, they have already been beat before they got started.horses are not new to this planet, there owners on the other hand are and are not likely to make the same mistake twice.

[drafthorseshoer]

enjoyed reading your follow-up posts. You both bring good points to the site.

I do want to re-iterate my basic but sound point to my origional post.

Honesty-Integrity-in what you say to others.
New ideas and concepts are always good because it keeps all things from stagnating. I am always saying to other farriers and horse owners, "take the blinders off and learn all the different ways of doing anything. It will and can be invaluable to you at some time.
You don't have to agree with or even like something but if you look at it with an open mind then it can either progress if it is good or be proven wrong if it isn't.
But it is the ones who take what a person or an organization says and deletes certain words so it comes out more enticing to the unsuspecting or unknowledgeable. THIS IS WHAT IS WRONG!!
Whether it is a car saleman or a horse trader or a hoof care person, shoer or barefooter.
If you do something and it works and you aren't aware just yet why it worked then be honest about it
If you want to accomplish something then let the job work on its own MERITS!

It is the folks who have to use a SCAM to promote a concept or method, these are the real chalotins/scam artists/flim flam people.
Do they have such LACK OF CONFIDENCE in what they are doing that they have to use false-hoods to entice in the public ?

Many times it is these few individuals who will ruin the project/movement for the whole.
My post isn't against barefooters. This isn't another grand stand against barefooters.
It is a statement about a single person who is using miseading statements to bring in the sheep.

Bruce Matthews
Northeast Drafthorse Shoeing LLC

[cynthia-jay]

Hello there
This is not the only individual making these claims of curing everything from moon blindness to shivers

Unless it is the same person

I've been to a barefoot clinic which the Strausser method was supposedly represented

It is good marketing these individuals have acheived by praying on those who
are in a situation of either poor shoeing/trimming to promises of rehabilatating founder to acheiving a high performance barefoot horse

Any self respecting Farrier, blacksmith ,horseshoer ect knows you cannot teach these people "how to trim their own horse in a one day session"

Therefore think of the follow up sessions it is gonna take to get these people there $$$$$$$$

not to mention the work it provides for their trained trimmers $$$$$$$$$$$

It is usually people who for some reason or other cannot get a good Farrier

Check out www.thehappyhoofer.com and check out the video
I taped it from one of these barefoot clinics

It was a one size fits all trim....every horse at the clinic got the same thing
Even the foundered horse

NOT ALL HORSES CAN GO BAREFOOT i
CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH

If you want your horse to be natural don't geld and turm em all loose

Horses in domestication have adapted and need/require shoes for performance ,protection among other things as well

and yes , some horses can perform barefoot : especially the weekend warriors
broodmares and others which are trail ridden (depending on)

You have every right to want to blow off steam on this subject and you did so with dignety
have a nice day
as ever
Cynthia Jay

[Phil Armitage]

Hey Bruce all I can say is. :confused:

[drafthorseshoer]

Hi Phil :confused:

I was going to write a lengthy piece but I gues if you don't understand what I am writing then I am not sure I can explain it any clearer.
I will e-mail you and then I can explain in depth.

Bruce

[Phil Armitage]

Hi Phil :confused:

I was going to write a lengthy piece but I gues if you don't understand what I am writing then I am not sure I can explain it any clearer.
I will e-mail you and then I can explain in depth.

Bruce

Sorry Bruce, that was not meant that I do not understand what your writeing. I do not understand how people can fall for such lies. I totaly understand where your comeing from and it also bothers me to see this going on. I also understand why alot of good horsemen and women do not waste there time with foolishness and people that lack common sense. Not enough time in the day to help people like this out.

[dlsqtrhs]

What I'm finding in my practice that the people who are the most interested in "natural" trimming are those folks who tend to be (forgive me for sterotyping) crunchy/granola and into organic this & that. Plus, all this barefoot hub bub has taken on a huge marketing stategy. In the last 2 months, I don't care what horse magazine I pick up, there's an article in there on "barefoot". (I'm being to question my own techniques in trimming horses that I leave -unshod-!) These barefoot advocates make it sound as though someone who carries an anvil in their truck can't trim a horse.
In addition, most folks aren't reading the "whole" contract - not finding the *'s that lead to the bottom of the page where in fine print it talks about "may have to use boots & shims on a horse while being ridden".
Mostly I feel it's all coming down to marketing. We as farriers aren't marketing ourselves like the barefooters are right now. Let's get some of those better known farriers who are authors & educators, Mitch Taylor, Doug Butler, Michael Wildenstein, come to mind immediately, getting some articles published in those magazines that just did the barefoot articles and see what visibility and marketing can/will do for traditional farriers.

[Tricia Wynn]

horses in the wild who have pain or hoof problems are eaten by predators or die and rot away, like any of Gods Creatures do and have done since the begining of time!!! That is why you don't see them very often)


Makes sense to me, it just seems to be left out of most discussions

[cynthia-jay]

Just a note on writing to horse mags

I sent an opinion on a Strausser article to a mag that did a story on all her wonders

It did not even make the readers responses

It may take the higher ups of the Farrier world who have noteriorty to make their mark in regards to this subject

any volenteers?

best
Jay

[Mike Ferrara]

The goal of most magazines is to sell more copies and, with that, more advertising. Sensationalism sells. Also, the publishers aren't always neutral on issues and choose what to print accordingly. If we can't always trust the news netwerks to be impartial, why would we have more faith in a horse magazine?

[Katy Watts]

Mike is absolutely correct. I'm co-authoring articles for popular horse magazines, and now insist that I have input on the final draft before my name goes on it. They say 'yes you are a good technical writer, but journalism is a bit different'. What is considered good journalism these days is drama and controversy. Can't blame them; even on these boards, a heated argument draws more attention. Many people seek drama in their lives, wheither on soap operas, the evening news, the internet or their favorite magazine. The facts in cold, plain, unembellished form do not attract enough attention. Controversy, and campaigning against conventional wisdom will attract attention, but it detracts from the message, IMO.
Katy

[Greg Thomas]

Katy,

I like the way you think.

But admittedly-I'm still feeding the same hay out of the same fields I have used for years and have never tested any of it. I guess I fall into the category of people that figure out what all the fascinating bells, whistles and lights were about after I get run over by the train. However I do feel that after I do learn in this way that I retain the knowledge well. Just trying to be funny.

I do admire your attitude, knowledge and common sense that is evident through your postings here. And I do feed my (self evaluated)"junk" hay and sell the pretty stuff because my horses do better.

Greg

[hoofnhound]

As to the comment 'a barefoot horse is a marvel of the natural world'

There is some truth to this,but it negates a lot of the barefooter's theories.

What always seems to be left out of the equation by these people is that Mustangs etc have 200+ years of natural selection on their side-bad footed feral horse babies usually don't get to grow up and make more bad footed babies...they die.
In our world bad feet are bred to bad feet and make bad feet that often need shoes.

[WashingtonBay]

(horses in the wild who have pain or hoof problems are eaten by predators or die and rot away, like any of Gods Creatures do and have done since the begining of time!!! That is why you don't see them very often)


This is exactly what I told my friend who got all jazzed after one of these clinics talking about the virtue of wild natural horse feet... :rolleyes: Her horse is still ouchy on rough gravel roads now... a year later.

Wild horses don't live into their twenties, and wild horses don't have a rider on their back that chooses their speed and terrain for them. Our horses aren't wild horses.

Your whole post is great. It makes a lot of sense to me.

[caballus]

I have to interject some comments here. First of all wild horses DO live well into their 20's. Secondly, if a horse is expected to work on gravel and rocky terrain but lives the majority of its time on pasture and soft ground, that horse is not going to be able to condition his hooves properly for trailriding on harsher terrain without some help. It just isn't going to happen and boots are necessary to help keep the animal comfortable during trail rides. So, I have to assume that if this horse is still ouchy on gravel a year later, that something is not right ... either the conditioning is not correct or the trim is not correct ... whatever it is, the horse, with proper care and conditioning, should not be ouchy on gravel after a full year's hoof growth. Having said that I'll now say that perhaps this horse OWNER is not a good candidate to take and have her horse barefoot.

--Gwen

[fourhooves]

...and wild horses don't have a rider on their back that chooses their speed and terrain for them. Our horses aren't wild horses.

Wild mares have a lot of extra weight added. Take a 1300 lb horse...The average weight of a foal is 10-11 % of that...130-143 lbs. That's not adding the weight of the extra fluids (20-30+lbs milk) and such that come along with pregnancy. Add some of that up along you could get 173+lbs. That horse is carrying that weight all of the time-day and night. Who says wild horses can't support extra weight?

I agree our horses aren't wild but that does not stop me from implementing heathy lifestyles for my horses. If I see something that wild horses are benefiting from, I'll see if my horses get the same benefits.

[cynthia-jay]

When a horse is domesticated it has different wants and needs than that of the feral horse

These needs are met thru nature or by the individual whos horse is in their care

The horse in mention should not be ouchy on gravel roads

Again ,not all horse can go barefoot

shoes with pads may benifit this horse

best to you

as ever

Jay

[WashingtonBay]

Who says wild horses can't support extra weight?


It wasn't so much just the weight, but also the whims of the rider that makes them different. Our horses are obedient and stoic, they will hide pain to every extent they can. We keep horses in settings that are not their natural habitat, and do things and go places that they would not naturally go. That was my point :)

[fourhooves]

Our horses are obedient and stoic, they will hide pain to every extent they can.

Horses give subtle (and not so subtle) signs all of the time if they are in pain. You just have to know them enough to read them.

By the way, you have a nice looking Arab! We have the same breed. ;)

[WashingtonBay]

Just so you know I am not philosophically opposed to barefoot on any horse, here is our barefoot Mustang/Arab mare Cyn.

http://images.snapfish.com/34642993%3B%7Ffp335%3Enu%3D3238%3E949%3E677%3EWSNR CG%3D3233559%3A73738nu0mrj

Pics of her feet attached :) She's trimmed every 8 weeks now along with my other horse. She's due now... Farrier coming this week. In summer when she's working he takes very little off, leading me to think if she was worked MUCH harder she might need shoes, but she's holding up wonderfully as a weekend trail horse.

Editing to add links to foot pictures... I guess I didn't do it right.


Front feet (http://images.snapfish.com/34642993%3B%7Ffp335%3Enu%3D3238%3E949%3E677%3EWSNR CG%3D3233559%3A6478%3Bnu0mrj)

Left front level (http://images.snapfish.com/34642993%3B%7Ffp335%3Enu%3D3238%3E949%3E677%3EWSNR CG%3D3233559%3A5698%3Bnu0mrj)

Right front sole (http://images.snapfish.com/34642993%3B%7Ffp335%3Enu%3D3238%3E949%3E677%3EWSNR CG%3D3233559%3A64793nu0mrj)

[fourhooves]

It looks like that was a fun ride! I agree that if people can go barefoot, great! If they can't then I hope they're at least getting a good trim...

[WashingtonBay]

Note addition of the promised foot pictures :)

[fourhooves]

Those heels still have a lot of wear if you ask me... ;)

[WashingtonBay]

Those heels still have a lot of wear if you ask me... ;)

I'd hope so, she hasn't done a lick of work since October ;) We don't ride much in winter... but spring is coming!

[caballus]

I see the same things with these hooves as I did with Bay ... breakover not back where it belongs, toes too long, underrun heels ... they look long in one photo but not clear enough to say for sure. The center of weight bearing is way too forward. Need to bring the heels back and the toes back to get the point of wb correct.

--Gwen

[WashingtonBay]

Heh..... Good grief. She's as long now as she ever gets, she's due to be trimmed this week.

I think it's possible that you guys are so used to trying to fix problems on this site that you'd find problems in a perfect foot. :rolleyes:

I'll post pictures after she's freshly trimmed.

[caballus]

Well, haven't found too many perfect hooves like this one:

http://www.thepenzancehorse.com/beautifulhoof.jpg

Now that's one honkin' gorgeous hoof!

That hoof belongs to the well-known Endurance Barefoot Arabian gelding called Imaj Zamir from Down Under in Tasmania. His credits include:

"He became the first horse in Australia to successfully complete a 100 mile endurance ride without shoes. Now he has clocked up close to 2000 competitive miles with a 98% success rate, and this year we found ourselves securing a coveted Tom Quilty Buckle in the most atrocious weather conditions.
To cap it off, in October 2005 he was the first barefoot horse in Australia to win a ride overall and secure best conditioned horse."

The purpose of this post was so that you could see the difference between a naturally maintained hoof, its form, its looks, etc. and your horses' hooves and their form. There's quite a difference. There is a direct correlation between the shape/form of the hoof and how it functions (or doesn't) overall. When I see long toes with the weight bearing center far forward and underun heels then my alert radar goes up cause I know its only a matter of time before the consequences will begin to be visible from the strains and stressors placed on the entire limb, shoulders and even back of a hoof/hooves that are not balanced and maintained correctly. I don't *look* for issues in hooves; I merely call 'em as I see 'em.

--Gwen

[WashingtonBay]

Well, haven't found too many perfect hooves like this one...


And yet most of our horses are sound and many function well into their twenties with good basic care. That was kinda my point :) But I wonder if it's the nature of an online troubleshooting forum to find fault even where there might not be any. I'm a surprised you'd find fault in Cyn's foot. If that's a mishaped foot then I've never seen a good one.

You know... Cops get to where they only see criminals everywhere. ;)

[Harley's Owner]

OK, so hows these shoes look to you all.

Front

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid201/pb1592cc3db352ec99a533d9c724ba1da/f0036708.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid201/p840a90209ef41f79de4826366f3ab040/f0036a8a.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid201/pb637f6c4991b070c31aaa811fd3cebe1/f00368a0.jpg

[Rick Burten]

The feet are out of balance, the breakover location is incorrect, the shoe is overcovering one heel and undercovering the other, the dishing at the toes does not appear to have been addressed and the frog needs some attention. Other than that, everything is honkey-dorry.

[calshoer]

The feet are out of balance, the breakover location is incorrect, the shoe is overcovering one heel and undercovering the other, the dishing at the toes does not appear to have been addressed and the frog needs some attention. Other than that, everything is honkey-dorry.
Ditto. And the heels seem to tall. Patty

[Forgewizard]

What they said AND....Hoof to pastern axis is broken forward and the heels are not level.


Sorry, but it is a farrier's JOB to pick apart a horse and its hooves in order to know what to do correctly to improve that horse and get it working at its optimum- NOT just do OK for now and wait until some problem shows up later.

As for that barefoot endurance horse- while the hoof looks decent from that position in the photo, I'd like to see it from the lateral and the dorsal view. Personally it looks worn down enough to warrant shoes! Maybe with shoes the horse would go from completintg the race to placing in the race!

Regards,
Kim

[WashingtonBay]

She meant to post those pictures to this thread:

Speeding Up Breakover in Front to Correct Forging Causes Sore Back (http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2316)

If any of you are interested in helping rather than just taking potshots, of course :rolleyes:

[cowboy_bc]

Hi all,

Potshots meaning what? If you went to your doctor would you hope he would be nice and even though you have cancer say it's not a big deal or would you rather be told like it is. Most of the folks on this site do tell it like it is and I can say that hundreds of people have received invalueable advice in this board for the 6 or 8 years I have been around and for free. If I were looking for advice I think I would listen and not be doing the talking.

Kevin

[WashingtonBay]

I've seen a lot of terrific advice on this forum. I've been reading lots of threads in the last few days and it's been very informative, even when you all appear to disagree heartily on methodology. That's why the tone in the last few replies on this thread regarding Harley's feet are quite a surprise.

Look - all of us common horse owners just write checks and hope our farrier knows what he's doing. This person is trying to do right by this horse and she got pot-shots from the forum... But other than that, it's all been honkey-dorry :D

[Harley's Owner]

Thanks again WB:)

Don't worry about it tho, I'm pretty thick skinned, and have come to believe that most farriers, have very large egos, and like to hear themselves talk. These "farriers" here, just proves my point.

[Rick Burten]

Ditto. And the heels seem to tall. Patty
Patty,
You are, of course, right. I was too general when I said the hooves are out of balance. I should have specifically said that I thought the heels were too tall.
Thank you for adding that because it needed to be said.

[Rick Burten]

Look - all of us common horse owners just write checks and hope our farrier knows what he's doing. This person is trying to do right by this horse and she got pot-shots from the forum... But other than that, it's all been honkey-dorry :D

What pot shots? She asked for and got straight, unadultrated, specific information. If, OTOH, you are referring to my little attempt at humor and inferred skepticism, then you have missed the message.

Since you acknowledge that you are a reader of these forums, then you by now should well know when someone of us is taking pot shots. Especially if that someone is me.

[Rick Burten]

I'm pretty thick skinned, and have come to believe that most farriers, have very large egos, and like to hear themselves talk. These "farriers" here, just proves my point.
Since you have such a low opinion of farriers in general, and the farriers on this site in particular, why do you even bother to post questions here?

Since you have chosen to tongue lash(so to speak) me(among others), and have tarred and feathered us as a group, I for one will take your reprimand and disrespect to heart and from this time forth, will ignore any questions or comments you make.

It is my sincere hope that my collegues do the same.

To save you the trouble of replying with further common insults(if you have some uncommon ones, I'd be interested in reading them so I can add them to my ever burgeoning repetoire'), I will readily admit to my numerous character attributes(which are the absolute envy of many). To wit(and feel free to add to the list): I am arrogant, egotistical, nefarious(at least according to Tom Stovall:D), pompous, sarcastic, cynical, overbearing, opinionated, curmudgeonly, eclectic, The Prince of Pretty, The Sultan of Suave, El Magnifico en Todo El Mundo, and a demure, shy and retiring wallflower.

There. I feel better now, don't you?

So, with that all said, I bid you Adieu.

[cowboy_bc]

I've seen a lot of terrific advice on this forum. I've been reading lots of threads in the last few days and it's been very informative, even when you all appear to disagree heartily on methodology. That's why the tone in the last few replies on this thread regarding Harley's feet are quite a surprise.

Look - all of us common horse owners just write checks and hope our farrier knows what he's doing. This person is trying to do right by this horse and she got pot-shots from the forum... But other than that, it's all been honkey-dorry :D

Hi all,

I think the problem is we are so far apart with the knowledge base thing that it's simply an understanding problem on your part. After all we are all long term careing horse people other wise we wouldn't be here, duh. So like I said listen more talk less.

Kevin

[Jan Palmer]

But I wonder if it's the nature of an online troubleshooting forum to find fault even where there might not be any.

Your horse has significant soundness issues according to what you wrote. There is fault somewhere and I agree completely with Gwen’s assessment of his feet from what I can see in those photos. Just wish she would stop with the barefoot propaganda.


I'm a surprised you'd find fault in Cyn's foot. If that's a misshaped foot then I've never seen a good one.

I don’t think she said your horse’s foot is misshaped, just trimmed incorrectly. I see a basically very good, strong foot that is in need of a much better trim.


You know... Cops get to where they only see criminals everywhere.<<

On the other hand, how many empty cans did you see on the side of the road last time you drove to work? 10? 20? None? One has to really look for something to know what’s there and then recognize what it is when you do see it. You’d be amazed how much the world opens up when you educate your eyes.


Jan

[WashingtonBay]

But I wonder if it's the nature of an online troubleshooting forum to find fault even where there might not be any.

Your horse has significant soundness issues according to what you wrote. There is fault somewhere and I agree completely with Gwen’s assessment of his feet from what I can see in those photos. Just wish she would stop with the barefoot propaganda.

Thank you Jan... And lets be clear we're talking about two different horses, and the horse with possible soundness issues is on this thread. Progress Check - 23 year old Arab with Navicular Symptoms (http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2317). He ~did~ have Navicular symptoms three years ago, but very subtle ones, and with the current regimen, he's been apparently sound ever since. My post was not really so much about a lame horse, because he's not. My post was about what to expect in the future. I worry constantly whether he's in pain that I can't detect, not merely in his feet, but in his whole 23 year old body. I appreciate the feedback I've gotten, but I agree, I'm not interested in transitioning him to barefoot, not him, and not at his stage in life. Any other constructive advice would be appreciated :)

I'm a surprised you'd find fault in Cyn's foot. If that's a misshaped foot then I've never seen a good one.

I don’t think she said your horse’s foot is misshaped, just trimmed incorrectly. I see a basically very good, strong foot that is in need of a much better trim.

The horse needs a trim, I know that :) she hasn't been trimmed in 8 weeks, she hasn't done anything but trod around the pasture in months and her appt is Thursday. "Needs a trim" is different than "Long toes and underrun heels" as if the horse is seriously flawed or in a state of neglect. I'd think every horse you ever see needs a trim when you get there ;) I'll post pics again when she's done. See if you really think my farrier is no good. :)

I apologize for my own defensiveness too. Clearly the art of farriery (if that's a word) is a mystery most good horse owners don't fully understand. I'll try to listen more, I hope you will understand and try to explain more. We care about these animals, we want them to be sound, and we aren't going to acheive that with mocking attitudes about the motives of the other. I know Harley's owner, and when she's just spent a lot of time, money and worry trying to get her horse pain-free, including signing up here for more answers, to just post ogling smilies (here: Speeding Up Breakover in Front to Correct Forging Causes Sore Back (http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2316) at the latest work one of your colleagues have applied just adds to a sense of confusion and mistrust about what's going on with this horse. That was my read, that's why I jumped in the middle of it.

[WashingtonBay]

Hi all,

I think the problem is we are so far apart with the knowledge base thing that it's simply an understanding problem on your part. After all we are all long term careing horse people other wise we wouldn't be here, duh. So like I said listen more talk less.

Kevin

I'll try to be a good student :)

[Gary_Miller]

[QUOTE=WashingtonBay]"Needs a trim" is different than "Long toes and underrun heels" as if the horse is seriously flawed or in a state of neglect./QUOTE]
No! mam, they are not diffrent "long toes and underrun heels" are sure signs that a trim is long over due. Though it is not an indicator that the horse is seriously flawed it does show neglect or improperly trimed feet.

Since I don't think you are the type to neglect your animals. I would suggest that you step up the trimming cycle from eight weeks to five or six weeks. This should ensure that the horse is trimed before the developement of "long toes and underrun heels"

Gary

[WashingtonBay]

Good suggestion if she were our only horse and my farrier had more room in his schedule that her trim cycle could be variable and shortened in winter when the ground is soft and she's not worked enough to wear down between trims. That hadn't occured to me.

She's been on the same 8 week cycle as my other horse, and in summer when she ~is~ worked, even at 8 weeks there is often nothing to trim, he'll merely do a little bit of filing and shaping because he happens to be there. That had led me to wonder, if she were worked any more than a weekend trail horse, would she likely need shoes.

[Gary_Miller]

She's been on the same 8 week cycle as my other horse, and in summer when she ~is~ worked, even at 8 weeks there is often nothing to trim, he'll merely do a little bit of filing and shaping because he happens to be there.
Needing a little filing and shaping is a good indicator that the horse is on a proper trim cycle.

That had led me to wonder, if she were worked any more than a weekend trail horse, would she likely need shoes.
Maybe. Maybe not. That would all depend on the condition of the hoof and the terrian in which she is worked.

If she was my horse I would have her in shoes even for a weekend ride. Just to ensure the hoof was protected from unseen hazards in the terrian. I think it better to have to much protection than not enough or none at all.


Gary

[WashingtonBay]

Believe me when I say two years ago when we got her, I assumed she'd get shoes. Her previous owners were granola-eatin' barefoot types but I'm not one ;) So she is not barefoot because I am resistant to them, I'm indeed skeptical of the new au'naturale barefoot trend, as my initial posts on this thread show, and I think it's only rare horses that can indeed hold up on trail barefoot. Our forefathers did not begin shoeing horses as a mere luxury because they were concerned about the animal's comfort, they did it because the horse needed them when put to work. I do believe that's still true.

But I've become convinced that she's just got these remarkably hard good feet and she's doing well so far! Every time the farrier comes I ask how she's doing, should she get shoes, and he says nope doesn't need them yet. She's never taken a short step on even rough rip-rap logging roads. So while I remain skeptical, I do believe if it ain't broke don't fix it. :)

[WashingtonBay]

If she was my horse I would have her in shoes even for a weekend ride.

BTW... This reminds me of a conversation I had with my vet about my old dog, who was developing a lot of non-cancerous fatty tumors. None were threatening to his health, some were merely unsightly. I didn't know which should be removed so I asked him "If he were your dog, which ones would you remove?" He said "Well, I'd take them all off, but then, it's kindof a hobby of mine, isn't it?" :D

[Gary_Miller]

Even before I started shoeing horses I would have done the samething.

I currently own four horses. Out of the four only one is currently shod. This is due to he is ridden occasionly by myself or the kids. Up until last Wed. he was shoeless for at least three months. Due to not being used.

Out of the others there is a mare who is heavy with foal so not being used at this time. The other two are 2 year olds just starting to be broke so they have no need for shoes at this time.

When they need shoes they will get them.

When they don't need them they don't get them.


Gary

[Gary_Miller]

But I've become convinced that she's just got these remarkably hard good feet and she's doing well so far! Every time the farrier comes I ask how she's doing, should she get shoes, and he says nope doesn't need them yet. She's never taken a short step on even rough rip-rap logging roads. If your horse is doing well without shoes and your farrier does not think they are needed then I have no problem wth keeping her barefoot.
So while I remain skeptical, I do believe if it ain't broke don't fix it. :)
While this is good thinking it has flaws.

I perfer to be proactive and provide the maintence required to prevent the brake so I don't have to fix it.

That's why I put shoes on my horses if they are being used anywhere besides the pasture or the arena.

Prevention really is the best medicine.


Gary

[WashingtonBay]

Fair enough :)

Any insight for me on my thread in the Navicular forum?

[caballus]

Sheesh ... damned if I do and damned if I don't ... I posted that picture as a natural hoof form to compare with the hooves in question for comparison in good, solid, correct front hoof form and then posted credentials so no one would call me on it! I also posted that information so that there would be no mistaking that even though the horse is barefoot it is performing well and sound. That's all. No propoganda. As I've said all along .. doesn't matter if the horse is shod or not the TRIM is the foundational crux.

WB ... the amount of underrun heel and length of toe is not indicative of just being 8 weeks out for a trim. That is indicative of longer standing incorrect trimming and balancing. It is not physiologically correct and yes, will cause damage along down the road apiece. But a hoof will not degenerate into that form in a mere 8 weeks from the latest trim unless it is predisposed from the prior care. That's just the way hooves are.

--Gwen

[caballus]

WB ... I sent you the URL to Gene Ovnicek's site http://www.hopeforsoundness with specifics to the Natural Balance Trim. Did you get a chance to go take a look? You can then compare his "guidelines" to your mare's hooves and see what I'm talking about. Perhaps that would be easier than comparing to a photo?

--Gwen

[Rick Burten]

to just post ogling smilies..... at the latest work one of your colleagues have applied just adds to a sense of confusion and mistrust about what's going on with this horse. That was my read, that's why I jumped in the middle of it.
What confusion and mistrust. That smilie was the vehicle chosen by that responder to register his shock, dismay and disbelief with regard to the quality of work done. At least, that was my read.

In case you are interested, my first reaction when I saw the photo of that hind foot was "Holy *****, no wonder that horse is having problems". Then we got to see photos of the front foot, objective comments were made, and the end result was an accusation of pot shotting by the farriers who responded. ROTFLMAO!

Perhaps it would be wise to remember the Confusian adage "look before you leap"

[WashingtonBay]

WB ... I sent you the URL to Gene Ovnicek's site http://www.hopeforsoundness with specifics to the Natural Balance Trim. Did you get a chance to go take a look?

That link doesn't work but I did google and find it. I have to say I don't understand much of it, but I'm trying.

[fourhooves]

That link doesn't work but I did google and find it. I have to say I don't understand much of it, but I'm trying.

www.hopeforsoundness.com

[arabbossmare]

NOT ALL HORSES CAN GO BAREFOOT i
CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH

Being a competitor with Arabians I can say that I try to keep my horses barefoot as much as possible. Unfortunately I just can't compete on the higher levels because of some small correction that I need with a shoe. Perhaps a tracer or something of that nature to correct a small gait problem. No not all horses can go barefoot...man has already screwed that up with bad breeding practices and ****** people who say "By gawd I can shoe anything on four legs Bubba gimme that hammer" :confused:

If you want your horse to be natural don't geld and turm em all loose

This statement is exactly what has started bad breeding practices in our country today.. not just with horses but also with people. :eek:
Okay I will give the soap box and asbestos suit back now.
Arab "shoot low boys they are riding shetland ponies" Bossmare