Frog injury question

[PromiseBaby]

Hi, all -

My mare's feet were done the other day (Thurs or Fri, not sure which), she was about 2 wks over due. I went up today to work her a bit. On the lunge, I noticed she was a little bit off. At first, it looked like the right front, but as I watched closer, when she was tracking right, I realized it really was coming from the left hind, and she was showing it in the right front (not uncommon with her). :confused:

There's no heat or swelling in the leg, and I assumed at first it was due to the hock, and the arthritis in that joint. I hopped on and we did about 25 min of walk and less than 3 min of trot (about 3 circles in each direction) - just to get us both out and moving. She felt absolutely fine at the trot, so again, I assumed hock.

The sand in the paddock where I was lunging her sucked up the moisture that had been in her feet before I started. So after we worked, I was able to get a better look at the trim job. I don't think my farrier is at fault here, but upon better inspection of the left foot, I noticed that the frog in her left hind is...well, broken. lol...ok, how to explain...while the other 3 frogs are perfectly triangular in shape, this one has a jagged edge, and isn't as long as it should be...like, literally missing a piece. I didn't feel any heat in the foot itself, but I touched it lightly and it did seem a little tender...she tried to pull away from me. :eek:

Since the frog is a shock absorber, is it fair to assume this is part of the reason she is gimpy? How long does it take a frog to regenerate itself? Is it likely to be a full hoof-growth cycle? I guess I probably could have given her a gram of bute, but she wasn't lame, just touchy, so I didn't. But is there anything else I can or should do?

[calshoer]

Pictures would help, but in general, sometimes a frog will shed off a huge thick layer, and sometimes the layer does not come off not all in one piece.
If you have any questions ask your farrier since he was the one who saw it and can probably explain what happened. Run this "frog shedding" idea past him and see what he says.
Sometimes the layer doesn't come off the whole frog at once, the front half may shed first breaking in the middle and leaving the back parts, or it may peel from the back forward. It does this when it has become excessive and when climatic conditions are right to loosen the outer extra layer. (enough moisture)
If the shed piece is very thick, the new "baby" frog underneath is sometimes very thin and tender until it toughens up. You could try strong iodine, or venice turpentine to toughen it.
Patty

[PromiseBaby]

Thanks, Patty.
It is the apex of the frog...probably about a 1/4 to a 1/2 inch missing from there, back.
I did not get there today, but will be going to see her tomorrow and will check on it again and see how she is moving on it. I hadn't considered that it could be part of a *cycle* rather than an injury, that does make sense. Was just a little concerned, because in all my years with horses, I have never dealt with anything like this before! She's got really good feet, so it is definitely out of the ordinary.
I figured she'd live, just wanted to see if there were any tricks I could try...I do use iodine once a week or so, at the recommendation of my farrier, so it can't hurt. Thanks again!

[PromiseBaby]

I took some pictures this afternoon, because it doesn't seem to be making any progress at all. Her feet are due to be trimmed in a week or two.

Here is the right hind. It's a little small, but this is the *normal* foot, and I'm sure you'll see the difference once you get to the images of the left hind.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y143/PromiseBaby/RightHind.jpg

And this is the left hind from several different angles...as you can see, a good portion of the frog is non-existant.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y143/PromiseBaby/PromiseLeftHind3.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y143/PromiseBaby/PromiseLeftHind2.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y143/PromiseBaby/LeftHind.jpg

I have invested in some hoof conditioner that was developed by a Florida vet for Florida horses - the main ingredients are fish oil and linseed oil. So, it's a starting point. Certainly can't hurt...as you can see her heels are a bit dry, too.

Thoughts? comments? ideas?

[Forgewizard]

Promisebaby,

YUP, definitely looks like a huge portion of frog is missing. Most likely from a bad thrush infection. There is still a lot of gunk packing into the cavity where the frog should be.

Frog regrowth rate is entirely dependent on the nutrition of your horse and whether or not the new growth can stay ahead of any infection still active.

I'd be careful with the fish oil based hoof paint. Fish oils can harbor Salmonella bacteria. Also an oil product is NOT really what you want to use to encourage faster growth or kill remaining bacteria. An oil product can close off air contact to the tissues.

What may promote faster healing, with allowing air to the hoof is picking clean, brushing clean the cavity, flush with peroxide, let air dry then wrap the hoof in a baby diaper and vet wrap. The diaper will be a physiacal barrier against muck packing into the cavity. WIll be a mild cushioning and will allow air to circulate around the tissues.

Adding a layer of duct tape to the ground surface of the wrapping will allow the wrap to last at least a couple days- even over shoes.

Until the frog tissue regenerates the horse WILL continue to be tender in that thin layer of tissue in the cavity.

A pad at the next shoeing would cover that area from injury, but would need some type of antiseptic packing to prevent further anaerobic infection.

Hope this helps,
Regards,
Kim

[PromiseBaby]

Thanks for the reply, Forgewizard.

I'm certainly not an expert, but to the best of my knowledge, experience, and research - thrush is/was not the issue here. She does tend to have a wet stall, so I do whatever I can to prevent thrush. No black/grey pus stuff, and definitely no odor - good, bad, or indifferent - for as long as I have owned her (8 yrs). Is it possible to have thrush and no odor?? Could it be something else bacterial that I'm not seeing in the research I'm doing??

I do use iodine on her feet everytime I am out - it was recommended by my farrier as an alternative to koppertox.

You think peroxide, rather than bleach to clean the cavity? Or does it not matter? I admit I haven't wanted to poke and prod the cavity much with a hoof pick, because I can't imagine it feels good, lol.

She's very healthy other than this and a touch of arthritis in her hocks. She eats everything in sight - and her coat is blindingly shiny...
So...I don't know. :(


I am going to try to get in touch with my farrier (again) tomorrow and see when he's planning to come out again, even if it's not to do her feet, maybe he could take a look at her for me and give me suggestions. (Not that I don't appreciate the responses here! :D ) Maybe putting pads on the hind feet is a solution...

or we could just amputate... :eek: joking, of course ;)

[PromiseBaby]

Well, I'm not convinced its thrush, but since I can't manage to get ahold of my farrier - I am treating it as thrush. Can't hurt, right? Forgewizard, I took your advice and cleaned it thoroughly and dried it then have it wrapped in a diaper/vet wrap/duct tape - the hoof conditioner I bought yesterday says it works to kill thrush, so I did use it. I've asked my barn manager to leave the stuff on her foot in the morning for turnout unless it's loose when she's going out --- and he is trying to see if he has better luck getting ahold of my farrier to see when he's coming out again, etc.

[cordell_rogers]

I can't manage to get ahold of my farrier ...
and he is trying to see if he has better luck getting ahold of my farrier to see when he's coming out again, etc.
Ah, the biggest complaint against farriers - farriers who don't return phone calls.

[Forgewizard]

Promisebaby,

After thoroughly cleaning the frog and its cavity, did you happen to take any pix?

Did it look like stretched opaque Saran wrap? Did you press on the exposed tissue? Did you feel and see it give under your fingers? Does the horse flinch if you poke it?

What color was the underlying tissue? If of course you have been using iodine, the tissue will be discolored from that. If the tissue is whitish in color and moist, then what you are looking at is literally the frog corium. That part of the frog that actually generates the rubbery part of the frog.

Kind of like if you get a blister and after popping the blister, you peel off the bubble and expose the tender new skin underneath.

With a cavity of that size, I am not surprised that you don't see any grey or black ooze most often associated with thrush. As for the odor usually smelled- that may also not be evident because of the meds and stall ammonias.

What is most likely happening is that your medications as well as the ammonias in the wet stall are preventing the tissue from regenerating fast enough to form healthy frog tissue. So while you may not have a raging thrush infection now, what you have is the cavity left behind.

Bleach is an absolute no no in my book! Bleach, besides being carcinogenic is a solvent. Forensic folks will tell you that anything organic soaked in bleach will dissolve!

Iodine is great for a first aid application for a bleeding wound as it does have great antiseptic properties but also mild cauterizing (tissue burning).

So you really don't want to dissolve or burn newly generated frog tissues.

I discourage bleach and iodine use for those reasons.

Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) is a decent antiseptic, that also introduces oxygen which is great for eliminating anaerobic activity so often found in horses dirt packed hooves.

The wrapping can be a pain, but it is effective. Show us pix of the cleaned out hoof if you have them!

regards,
Kim

[PromiseBaby]

No I didn't take pictures - as I was cleaning the hoof yesterday, it dawned on me that I should have brought my camera, lol. I will bring it with me when I go back later on to change the wrap.

No on the saran wrap comparison. The inside of the cavity, when clean, is more like the white tissue you described - which I assumed was the base level of the frog, where it grows from the inside of the hoof. It appears to be healthy.

She doesn't flinch with me...I don't know if it'd be a different story if someone else were to be pushing on it, etc. She's weird like that, has more tolerance when it's me, than she does with a stranger. And it might be my imagination, but she seems to be moving on it a little better today. She's not at all what I'd deem lame, but is definitely sensitive/ouchy on it. I know my barn manager doesn't see it, but I do - and I can feel it, too. lol, weird.

She seems to be getting somewhat tired of holding the foot up for me, lol. She nearly took my arm off pulling it away from me this morning, but looked immediately guilty when I scolded her and didn't do it again. Generally she's being very good and very patient while I muck around with it...I can't complain.

I did take your advice, Forgewizard - I washed each foot with some peroxide, and then rinsed all of them out with warm water. It bubbled on all 4, but obviously, mostly on the left hind. ((I only asked about the bleach because several of the suggested treatments I have read said bleach, and I went, do what now??))

I then let them dry, and used the conditioner stuff I bought on the sole and the outside -- on all 4. I packed the cavity in the left hind with a piece of gauze with some furazone on it and then wrapped it in the diaper, vet wrap and duct tape. Thank god I taught her early on what *Stand up* means :-P it's come in handy when I've got the diaper around the bottom of the foot, and she wants to rest the foot - but I want her to put her weight on it, so I can secure it, lol.

I am not sure if the diaper made it through the night - all that was left when I got there this morning was the ring of vet wrap and duct tape around her fetlock - but she had been in turn out for 2 hrs, and to be honest, I didn't search the paddock to see if the diaper was there. (Shame on me.) She was in a paddock that is mostly sand, so the drying aspects of it are working somewhat for my benefit at the moment.

When I wrapped it this morning, I put duct tape around the toe and the bottom too, so hopefully it'll stay on a little better - but like I said above, I will be going back later today to change it again.

I would say, assuming it was a thrush infection - that the thrush aspect is gone. All 4 of her feet looked much better today, the cracking on her heels is much less after being treated with the conditioner product I bought, too - (also kills thrush) -- I used it again today - but will not use it again until Friday, now. The label recommends every other day unless the feet are very dry.



Her feet definitely need to be trimmed -- but since I can't get ahold of my darling farrier, I don't know for sure when he's making the trip out. I was hoping this week, since I am on spring break from classes and vacation from work, I could fairly easily make arrangements to be there and discuss the problem with him while he's looking at it. Grrr. Yes, biggest complaint is farriers who don't return phone calls!! I'm getting very frustrated with his apparent phobia of dealing directly with clients...and am quite close to switching farriers. The only thing stopping me is I like the work he does, and my mare - who is somewhat picky about vets and farriers - also likes him.

Hey forgewizard - where in FL are you?? :-P

[PromiseBaby]

Ok...here are some pictures of both feet after cleaning. I only hosed the left one before I took the picture - and the reddish and yellow tones you're seeing are a combination of furazone and the clay footing.

Right Hind:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y143/PromiseBaby/RightHind031506a.jpg

Left Hind (bear in mind, it's still wet, too, lol):

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y143/PromiseBaby/LeftHind031506a.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y143/PromiseBaby/LeftHind031506.jpg


And just for good measure, I thought you might like to see the rest of the beastie these feet are attached to, lol...here's Promise...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y143/PromiseBaby/PromiseBefore4.jpg

[Forgewizard]

Promisebaby,

Oh yeah! Great job on the clean up! Thanks for the photos! You are definitely seeing the frog corium! I can understand how you can see and feel things in your horse that others can't.

Here's a tip to taping a diaper:

Lay strips of duct tape about 8 to 10 inches long, sticky side up on a flat surface. Overlap the strips about a half to 3/4 of an inch, one strip overalpping the strip before it.I usually do 5 strips.

When done you should have a large sticky side up "sheet" of duct tape.

If it is breezy where you are doing this fold under each end of the strip and stick it to the flat surface.

For saddle horses I use medium size diapers. Put the diaper on so that the happy little animals are on the back of the pastern area, then stick the velcro or sticky tape to the happy animals.

If you put your horse's hoof between your knees like a farrier you will be able to use both hands- otherwise you have to invent a third hand!

Once the diaper is on , I wrap the entire foot with vetwrap or coflex (whatever was on sale at tractor supply). Then I plaster the sticky sheet of duct tape to the wrapped hoof sole, folding the sheet all around the wrapped hoof. Put the hoof down and use a couple more strips of tape to seal the ends of the folded sheet and voila! One wrapped hoof! This wrapping, once mastered will only take a couple minutes per hoof.

If the horse is still quite active, and yours sounds like she is, you may want to do at least two layers of sheeted duct tape, along with 2 layers of diapers.

Sometimes you can get lucky and find superduty duct tape or super wide duct tape- both of these make grand wrapping materials!

From the new pix, you'll probably have at least three to 6 months before those frog cavities fill in completely- there is a LOT of missing material. Less time if you are lucky.

As to where in Florida am I? Well, that mostly depends on where my truck is!;) Mostly the east central coast, but with several folks in Jax and Canaveral Groves.

Hope this helps!
Regards,
Kim

[PromiseBaby]

Thanks, Forgewizard! I appreciate all your comments - you've been very helpful. Too bad I'm on the west coast, hehe.

I had a hard time getting this morning's wrap off, I wrapped it so good I couldn't break in! I guess that is a good thing, lol - it was still quite intact 5 hrs later. So I have high hopes that tonight's will survive the night, and turnout in the morning. :D I think I need to invest in some sharper scissors so I can cut through the layers of duct tape and diaper easier...I didn't anticipate it being quite that difficult! Good call on the "sheets" -- I hadn't thought of that, will try it tomorrow! I did get the super duty, strangely, it was the cheapest, lol -- with the last one, I only wrapped the coronet and pastern area with the vet wrap - which is where the diaper was secured, so it was added security for the velcro. And then used the duct tape heaviest around the bottom and toe area, but all the way around the hoof to help secure the vet wrap. The tape goes around the heel, but stops at or just below the coronet line.

I tried the hoof between the knees thing when I was cleaning it, and I have no idea how you farriers do it!! lol...I guess I am less coordinated that wya than I am holding it. :p She has been great in supporting most of the weight of the leg while I wrap it...but I am definitely going to try out your sheet idea.

I was only planning to keep it wrapped through the weekend...think should I be doing it longer? Still hoping the farrier will be out tomorrow, Friday or early next week...

[John Emsley]

Promise Baby,
I can't believe that people forget the basic chemistry taught us all in school. There is three kinds of oil, Animal, Mineral and Vegtable. Only one of these doesn't rot, and that is Mineral, therefore that is the one you mix with pine tar etc. and apply it to the bottom of the hooves to kill fungus, keeping in mind that if you do this for a long period of time, oil and water doesn't mix and that poses another problem. Cod liver oil (fish oil) was one of the main hoof producing products used extensively to promote hoof growth before "Biotin" came along.
Those photos make it very clear that your horse has a thrush problem and will be just fine after alittle treatment and time. If you want to hurry the process, make up a Saturated Solution of Copper Sulphate, and poor it into the hoof while it is being held up for thirty seconds. This toughens the soul. Most all of your comercial thrush products contain this ingredient.
The photos of your horse shows that that he is in great health and will have no difficulty recovering.

[Forgewizard]

Promisebaby,

OK, I'll let you in on the secret to holding the hoof between your knees:
Ya gotta stand up away from the desk for this one:

Stand with your feet about shoulder width apart, toes pointed straight ahead. Now bend your knees and what do they do? They point over your toes right? Great big gap between each knee right? This is the WRONG way to hold a hoof between your knees!

OK, so straighten back up and this time with your feetjust slightly less than shoulder width apart, point your toes towards eachother. Yup, that's right- pigeon toed. Now bend your knees. AHAH! See what happens now? Your knees come together! THIS is the RIGHT way to hold a hoof between your knees!

Now all you have to do is learn how to move your torso independently of your hips and legs, while keeping your toes pointed at eachother and you can hold a hoof between your knees all day long!

Don't tell anyone I told you the secret - we farriers like to think we have this market of contortionism cornered!

You'll still need to do the pigeon-toed bend for the hind hooves- just rest the hoof over your thigh closest to the horse andinstead of positioning your body alongside the horse like you do for the forelegs, your position now will be slanted, or diagonal - so that your butt points away from the horse on an angle.

Or give your thighs and back a rest and use a hoof jack stand.

This really should help!
Regards,
Kim

[PromiseBaby]

Meh...even with all those insider secrets, I still can't do it, lol. I'm not the most coordinated person...my mom regularly asks me how I stay on a horse when some days it seems like I can barely stand on my own feet, lol.
There's a reason I'm not studying to be farrier, I guess! But it certainly makes me appreciate you guys more - not that I didn't appreciate y'all before! But, I have got a system down that is working well enough, so it'll do :D

It's looking better, and all 4 look really great moisture-wise. The dryness from her heels is gone. I think I'm starting to see some regrowth already, from the corium area. Maybe it's wishful thinking, lol. The frog was a little darker than I'm used to seeing -- it was blackish-brown...almost tar-like in color, but felt like the others when I touched it. I conditioned all 4 feet, and left the wrap off for a few hours while I went out and took some pictures for class - and she ate her lunch...then came back, picked it out, washed it and rewrapped it -- shavings aren't as tough to get out of the cavity now. It did look normal when I rewrapped it, so maybe it was just some excess moisture in the foot, that was held in by the wrap...not sure.

My farrier is not coming out until Wednesday...I guess that is the soonest he can make it, and he's doing all of his clients at my place then. I won't be able to be there, as I have an exam and can't skip class that day (damnit!) - but I did leave him a note with his check about what I've been doing, and what he thinks, suggests, etc. -- He said it didn't look like I was describing when he was out last. But, in the note, I also asked if it would be beneficial to put pads on the hind feet while the frog regenerates...or if I'm better off with a trim, shoes and just continuing to wrap it. I left 3 ways to get in touch with me, lol - so, hopefully he'll either call me or give the barn manager the information. I told the BM that if he wants to put pads on, he has my permission - have him leave me a bill and I will write him a check for the difference if he does so.

I'm going to keep it wrapped at least until Wednesday - and guess I'll update you again after the shoeing...I can't wait to see it after a trim...

[PromiseBaby]

Well, she did, in fact, have her feet done today. YAY! The hoof itself looks great (all 4 of them do). I haven't gotten a look at the sole yet for a couple of reasons -- main one being, my car was in the shop today, and I didn't think far enough ahead to have grabbed my tack box key out of my glove compartment...so I wasn't able to get a hoof pick, lol - and my finger didn't do a whole lot in terms of cleaning it out. 2nd reason - it was almost 10 o'clock, I was on my way home from work and had been out of the house since 7 AM. So...I will leave early tomorrow and go have a look, and take some pictures of it, too. Til tomorrow.....:)

Edited to add pictures --
No word from my farrier yet, but my barn manager said that he was planning to get in touch with me to tell me what he thinks --- apparently he said it wasn't as bad as he was expecting, and there is new growth coming up.

Right hind after trim...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y143/PromiseBaby/RightHindAfterTrim.jpg


Left hind after the trim -- I didn't have time to wash it, only picked it out...but I am going back later on my way home from class and will clean it better.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y143/PromiseBaby/LeftHindAfterTrim.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y143/PromiseBaby/LeftHindAfterTrim3.jpg

[PromiseBaby]

At Kim's recommendation, I purchased some Forschner's Hoof Packing as an alternative to the diapers, etc...I got it last night, and started using it today, so we'll see how it works. :)

Edited to add that I happened to be at the barn at the same time as my farrier this afternoon, so finally got a chance to speak with him about the foot. He said definitely no to putting pads on -- it will do more harm than good, even packed with Forschner's. He recommended that I use the Forschner's until the vet comes out to do spring shots and coggins, and then to ask them for the powder that they make at their facility, especially to deal with this type of situation -- I guess mixed with 7% iodine and then brushed onto the hoof, it finishes off any lingering infection and also promotes growth. And, I am to use the hoof packing stuff for a few days, then let it air for a day or two, then start with the packing again, etc.

[PromiseBaby]

I happened to catch my farrier again this afternoon. Amazing! I thought he wasn't coming out until Wednesday. I worked Promise on the lunge line for a while - since he had 2 horses left to do in front of her. And then I watched while he did her feet. He didn't really have much to say - a good thing with him, lol. He did comment that they look a lot better -- the thrush is gone, so now it is a matter of maintaining and continuing to treat it, as a preventative measure, to keep it that way. And since the thrush is gone, her feet can begin to regrow.

I will take pictures tomorrow.

[PromiseBaby]

Here are the pictures after her trim yesterday...

Left hind
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y143/PromiseBaby/PromiseLeftHind.jpg

Left front
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y143/PromiseBaby/PromiseLeftFront.jpg

Right hind
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y143/PromiseBaby/PromiseRightHind.jpg

Right front
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y143/PromiseBaby/PromiseRightFront.jpg