Well I voted, so don't forget to vote.

[Phil Armitage]

Don't forget to fill out your ballot and mail it in. I know how you farriers can put things aside and forget about it. Don't let that ballot get out of sight and out of mind. fill it out and get in the mail. Oh and don't forget postage is now 39 cents.

[Ben-Sturman]

I voted, and did it the day I got it and sent it off that day to. So I wouldn't forget like Phil said. Now that gives me the right to gripe and complain all I want if things don't go the way I want. :eek: :D

Ben

[tbloomer]

I was delighted to be able to mail in my vote before my dues expired! It's like having your cake and not having to eat it!

Tom Bloomer, CF

[Dianne Lemmon]

Mine's sitting on the Kitchen table while I continue to ruminate on the Presidential election.
It truly seems a dammed if we do and dammed if we don't scenario. One hand we have one candidate trying to convince us the current regime is not a bunch of control freaks, and on the other hand we have the other candidate trying to convince us they are. My conundrum is this: I am not happy with the current politics of the AFA. They do come off as being exclusionistic. However I cannot forsee the other candidate posessing a semblance of leadership skills. There I am out with it. Now to make a decision.

My mind is made up on the treasurer issue.

Dianne

[Dianne Lemmon]

I was delighted to be able to mail in my vote before my dues expired! It's like having your cake and not having to eat it!

Tom Bloomer, CF

Tom,

I too am in that same boat. Mine expire 3/30/06. Should I hold off on sending my dues in to see what happens when the votes are tallied, or should I just be G'ol danged cheap and put the two in the same envelope together?

Dianne

[EileenHughes]

Gee, I wish my ballot would come, it appears that folks on both sides of me have gotten theirs.

I too am wondering if I'll be renewing this year as I'm kind of disgusted with current events. :(

I'll likely stick it out if the vote goes the way I'd like it to.

[tbloomer]

Mine's sitting on the Kitchen table while I continue to ruminate on the Presidential election.
It truly seems a dammed if we do and dammed if we don't scenario. One hand we have one candidate trying to convince us the current regime is not a bunch of control freaks, and on the other hand we have the other candidate trying to convince us they are. My conundrum is this: I am not happy with the current politics of the AFA. They do come off as being exclusionistic. However I cannot forsee the other candidate posessing a semblance of leadership skills. There I am out with it. Now to make a decision.

My mind is made up on the treasurer issue.

Dianne
Why not base your decision on the plan proposed by the respective candidates. LOOK at each candidates plan. VOTE based on whom you believe has the better platform. In that respect you are voting for a platform rather than a candidate. Eliminate the personality issues and look at the information.

Tom Bloomer, CF

[jseyffer]

Dianne -- DON'T put anything but the ballot in the envelope. Check the instruction sheet that came with your ballot.

[NorthBayFarriers]

Hey fellow AFA members....YEAH for voting ...do it !!! PLEASE don't leave the AFA, we all count. Our numbers show strength to the outside world. Please remember that a President cannot just change policies willy-nilly, they must submit agenda items to the members and get issues voted on by our chapter presidents/board members at the twice yearly meetings. We can all try to change anything we don't like. HOW... well if you feel strong about something at the convention meeting or right now you may contact the board and have it added to the agenda items to be brought up at the mid-year meeting. I said the mid-year meeting because I think it is to late to add to the convention meeting. Maybe we should all touch base with our local chapters and read how we are supposed to do things in the AFA chapter handbooks. MY POINT IS PLEASE DON'T LEAVE WE NEED EACH OTHER!!
all my best Bunny Goodrich ;)

[T.N. Trosin]

Once when I was mad at the WSFA and didn't rejoin (if that isn't a word I'm sure Rick will correct me) one of the older WSFA members, Wayne Bair told me
"Good job **** ***, you just gave up your voice and your vote"
Nothing can change if people keep leaving. Tom, Dianne you could both be a part of the change, but if you chose to leave and wait from the sidelines chances are your issues will never be heard.
BTW, welcome Bunny.

[Gary_Miller]

However sometimes you have to let your feet do the talking.

If enough people walk, because of all the garbage that has been going on over the last year. The leadership will have no choice but to step back find out why people are leaving and address the issues.

There is already some concern on why members are leaving and what we need to do to keep them. So walking it must be working.


Gary

[smitty88]

hi all

i know im in a different country
what are you voteing
i havent been reading your asso stuff
is your agm coming up ?

[Phil Armitage]

Hi Smitty, we are voteing for a new AFA President and new AFA Treasurer. The big issue to date has been licensceing farriers in the US. Many of us are against it and feel it would ruin the trade and free thinking. Some leaders in the AFA are for it and some are against it. I want to make sure my vote puts leaders in there that are against it. I also would like to see leadership that is open to new research and ideas and who put farrier education as a top priority. The AFA does focus on education, educateing farrier and horse owners on what they think is the right way to trim and shoe horses and leave out new research and ideas. That is the way I see it anyways, if I am wrong about how or what the AFA is trying to do, I am sure someone will speak up and maybe we can have a good debate. Right now the AFA thinks if they can educate horse owners on the AFA way of doing things, then Farriers will have no choice but follow there methods and become certified. I would like to see an orginization that wakes up and realize there are many flaws in older methods and new ideas are better for horses.

[smitty88]

thanks for tuneing me in Phil

[Dave Purves]

Hi Smitty, we are voteing for a new AFA President and new AFA Treasurer. The big issue to date has been licensceing farriers in the US. Many of us are against it and feel it would ruin the trade and free thinking. Some leaders in the AFA are for it and some are against it. I want to make sure my vote puts leaders in there that are against it. I also would like to see leadership that is open to new research and ideas and who put farrier education as a top priority. The AFA does focus on education, educateing farrier and horse owners on what they think is the right way to trim and shoe horses and leave out new research and ideas. That is the way I see it anyways, if I am wrong about how or what the AFA is trying to do, I am sure someone will speak up and maybe we can have a good debate. Right now the AFA thinks if they can educate horse owners on the AFA way of doing things, then Farriers will have no choice but follow there methods and become certified. I would like to see an orginization that wakes up and realize there are many flaws in older methods and new ideas are better for horses.


I was hoping you could enlighten us on the "AFA way of doing things".

thanks
Dave

[Phil Armitage]

I knew you would ask that question. You know where I am comeing from, why rehash and beat a dead horse?

Dave what do you think about the AFA's current policy? I have spoken up many times and have been pretty clear about how I see things here on the forum and with many others in person. I am also interested in what others think AFA certified and non-certified. Also what non AFA farriers think.

[vthorseshoe]

Hey Phil;
I voted also and also believe "if you don't vote -don't b--ch"

But I have got to tell you, you sure have aged from all of the issue's you have spoken up or joined in on.
Man, you don't look anything like you did the last time I saw you in person !!(speaking of your posted picture accompanying your post)

Bruce
VtFA Assoc. Pres.

[Phil Armitage]

Hey Phil;
I voted also and also believe "if you don't vote -don't b--ch"

But I have got to tell you, you sure have aged from all of the issue's you have spoken up or joined in on.
Man, you don't look anything like you did the last time I saw you in person !!(speaking of your posted picture accompanying your post)

Bruce
VtFA Assoc. Pres.

That is my attempt to look like Baron. Do you like my pilot helmet? :)

[Phil Armitage]

Bruce, I don't call it *****ing (I know what you meant, and that your not saying I am *****ing) I call it affecting change and I think we can all affect change as members or not. I am going to renew my membership and keep trying to affect change. Who knows maybe one day glue on shoes, NB shoes, frog support pads, Equipack, Impression material, plastic shoes and many other shoes will be on the shoe board. Trimming principles that go deeper into the understanding the structures on the bottom of the foot will be as important as anatomy. Memorizeing anatomy and handmakeing a steel shoe is part of it, but just a small part of what is really affective in doing things that help horses. Trimming with no real understanding of what to leave or remove just does not make sense anymore.

[T.N. Trosin]

The AFA does focus on education, educateing farrier and horse owners on what they think is the right way to trim and shoe horses and leave out new research and ideas.
If you are refering to Natural Balance it isn't a new idea. Neither was Ducketts dot or the heart bar. I think the AFA has shown a great amount of progression by even accepting advertising from people with "new ideas" and by leaving Mike Savoldi, who I consider very forward thinking, in charge of research.
Right now the AFA thinks if they can educate horse owners on the AFA way of doing things, then Farriers will have no choice but follow there methods and become certified.
The only people I have ever heard say such a thing are people who are affraid that they couldn't pass the AFA tests. I didn't have a gun to my head when I got certified and I have never had a member of AFA leadership tell me that anyway is the only way to shoe a horse. If it were not for the AFA and the WSFA I wouldn't be the farrier I am today. Through my membership I have met several members who have in one way or another made me better which in turn has helped my horses stay sounder.
I would like to see an orginization that wakes up and realize there are many flaws in older methods and new ideas are better for horses.
I would like the "sole plane" people to wake up and realize that setting a shoe in the middle of a horses leg is just as important as "balance". An old idea I realize but the fact is that it does as much or more good than anything else.
The reason your "new ideas" are mocked is because they are presented as a miacle cure for what ills you. Sometimes the hoof capsual needs time to recover from damage and there is no quick fix.

[Bill Adams]

My quandry is this,
Dave F. once bought me a Coors Lite. It was a nice gesture, but Coors Lite taste like ****.
So should I be thankful I got something for free already and vote for Dave?
Then I think I should vote for Jeff and then hope for an oppertunity to tell him and hope to have a fine hand crafted Ale purchsed for me, witch may not ever hapen, but I allready got the free beer, but it sucked....
Or I guess I could vote for who most closely shares my views and then hold my breath till I turn blue if they lose, then take my ball home and play with someone else. Or maby I could stay in the game and try to get my team to play better, or at least gripe as I've earned the right to.
Or, maybe my side will win and we can take over the world as I've heard the AFA is planing to do.
So to recap:
Get free beer
Get to gripe
Get to run the world
Get good insurance and discounts
Seems like a win, win, win, win, situation.
Bill

[shoesofiron]

Phil, Phil, Phil.......

Who knows maybe one day glue on shoes, NB shoes, frog support pads, Equipack, Impression material, plastic shoes and many other shoes will be on the shoe board.

Even the CJF test is nothing more than what OUGHT TO BE a good place to start. Meaning, someone who calls themselves a farrier OUGHT to be able to AT LEAST do that much. It's NOT an end all be all to shoeing. And that's something that bugs me about people who slam certification. Hey, ask anyone, I used to be a slammer of CJF's myself. I'm still in a 12 step program for it... but I always thought it was my clients who "certified" me by calling me back and continuing to use my services.
However, I was cajoled into taking the tests by a few friends who said, "if you're as good as you think you are, take the tests and see". It's NOT how you have to shoe all your horses, just a basic, simple prescription with a time limit to show proficiency.
And to be honest, it's a "do no harm", won't harm (maybe won't help) test to see if you can align a bony column, fit a foot with a hand made, clipped shoe, nail it and bring it all together as a suitable package for the horse.
It has never been presented as "the way" to shoe horses, just a basic test of skill and knowledge.
Anyone who thinks they "have arrived" because they have a CJF behind their name is delusional.
And therein lies what I think most of the problem is with the controversy over licensing, etc: We can't agree amonst ourselves what ought to be good, basic knowledge and skill that is appropriate enough to go out in public and start taking people's money for what we do.
Let's face it, there are a LOT of guys/gals out there that ought NOT be allowed to wield a hoof knife, but this is America where people can choose to be ignorant if they want.

Trimming principles that go deeper into the understanding the structures on the bottom of the foot will be as important as anatomy. Memorizeing anatomy and handmakeing a steel shoe is part of it, but just a small part of what is really affective in doing things that help horses. Trimming with no real understanding of what to leave or remove just does not make sense anymore.

Again, the idea of the test is not neccessarily to "help" the horse, just get him to a good, basic foundation. Anyone ought to be able to do that.

And while I'm on that track, is it just me or does there seem to be an 80/20 principle in relation to what vets see in lame horses?
Ask any vet and they're likely to tell you 80% of their lameness cases are foot related.
Isn't that about the same per cent of farriers in this country that DON'T pursue some sort of continuing education skill development once they graduated from schools?
So educating the horse owning public on how shoeing schools turn out "students", not farriers, and how historically, the failure rate for farrier businesses within the first few years of graduation is so high.
Somehow, we've got to get the public to understand that no one fresh out of school is ready to do business as a competent farrier.
These "newbies" are the main cause for farrier fees to be as low as they are. They graduate, come into an area, don't apprentice, and start charging less than "the going rate" to get business and SURPRISE!!!! in a few years, they realize they haven't made enough to cover their expenses to sustain their business and they go back to brick-laying.
And there's a brand new crop of newbies right behind them charging less to get business....
And the owners perceive this as "the norm" and it shouldn't be.
What ought to be the norm is that no one without at least a couple years of working under a competent farrier (define that and you win the prize) can hang out a shingle...
has taken some business management courses...
and most imprtantly, castrated for undercutting by say, more than 10%.
THAT should be the norm... then none of us would have to drive more than 10-20 miles to do our work for the day and we'd all be helping horses instead of coming in behind these hacks to fix the problems and the public wouldn't be having a cow when we hand them the bill.
And we wouldn't be afraid to refer a client to someone just because they're in their area.
Horseshoeing schools need to have more of a conscience when sending out their diplomas.

Do hacks know they are hacks?

[Mike Ferrara]

Phil, Phil, Phil.......



Even the CJF test is nothing more than what OUGHT TO BE a good place to start. Meaning, someone who calls themselves a farrier OUGHT to be able to AT LEAST do that much. It's NOT an end all be all to shoeing. And that's something that bugs me about people who slam certification. Hey, ask anyone, I used to be a slammer of CJF's myself. I'm still in a 12 step program for it... but I always thought it was my clients who "certified" me by calling me back and continuing to use my services.
However, I was cajoled into taking the tests by a few friends who said, "if you're as good as you think you are, take the tests and see". It's NOT how you have to shoe all your horses, just a basic, simple prescription with a time limit to show proficiency.

I guess I don't care if the next guy wants to persue certification. Whatever trips you trigger. I'm not so predisposed to yield to peer pressure so I won't be "cajoled" into doing anything by friends.

What would all these guys have done before there was AFA certification? I guess I started to learn to shoe shortly after they first introduced certification (they did that in 79 I think). I must have started in 81 or 82. My teacher didn't belong to the AFA and wasn't certified and I never gave the whole thing a second thought. Sure I knew guys that went home and practiced their shoe making in the evenings, hung out with the AFA boys on the weekends and all got certified. I guess I was never a clu/organization sort of person. I had to pass plenty of tests before my mentor let me shoe a clients horse though. Now the whole thing just doesn't matter to me. I don't need the AFA or it's certification to make a living and that's what I'm out to do.

And to be honest, it's a "do no harm", won't harm (maybe won't help) test to see if you can align a bony column, fit a foot with a hand made, clipped shoe, nail it and bring it all together as a suitable package for the horse.
It has never been presented as "the way" to shoe horses, just a basic test of skill and knowledge.

There you go, that's it isn't it? While I have a bunch of weighted shoes I need to get made up in the next few weeks I have to admit I've hand made shoes for only a hand full of horses in all the time I've been shoeing. Oh, I can make a shoe, or a knife or a set of fire tools, my own tongs, punches or whatever. Can I knock out 4 shoes fast enough to pass the test? I don't know and I don't much care and I'm not going to burn the fuel, steel and energy to make sure I can either. If that ever hurts a client or a horse you all can flog me.

I'll say this though, those who want to look or talk down to those who aren't certified had better have more up their sleeve that a CJF card.


And while I'm on that track, is it just me or does there seem to be an 80/20 principle in relation to what vets see in lame horses?
Ask any vet and they're likely to tell you 80% of their lameness cases are foot related.
Isn't that about the same per cent of farriers in this country that DON'T pursue some sort of continuing education skill development once they graduated from schools?

I don't know much about the schools because I never went to one but are you trying to say that farriers are laming horses because they aren't certified? If you are you'd have trouble making that one stick. There are all kinds of ways to continue your education.

So educating the horse owning public on how shoeing schools turn out "students", not farriers, and how historically, the failure rate for farrier businesses within the first few years of graduation is so high.

The failure rate of all business are high. I don't know why people leave and move on. Maybe one reason is that it's hard work that you can't do if you get hurt or sick. I can't speak for any one else but I shod horses full time for some years and then got a degree and took a position as an engineer. I had young kids and was trying to insure a measure of security for my family. I didn't want our livelyhood to depend on my back and I can engineer from a weel chair if I have to. I had a good business when I left and I never did gross more money as an engineer...well maybe it was close if you add in all the benifits and paid vacation. In any case niether schools or certifications had anything to do with it though. Now the kids are gone, too many manufacturing companies are going to Mexico, I've always missed the life I had when I was shoeing so I'm back. I may do something else someday though so, no promises.

Somehow, we've got to get the public to understand that no one fresh out of school is ready to do business as a competent farrier.
These "newbies" are the main cause for farrier fees to be as low as they are. They graduate, come into an area, don't apprentice, and start charging less than "the going rate" to get business and SURPRISE!!!! in a few years, they realize they haven't made enough to cover their expenses to sustain their business and they go back to brick-laying.
And there's a brand new crop of newbies right behind them charging less to get business....
And the owners perceive this as "the norm" and it shouldn't be.
What ought to be the norm is that no one without at least a couple years of working under a competent farrier (define that and you win the prize) can hang out a shingle...
has taken some business management courses...
and most imprtantly, castrated for undercutting by say, more than 10%.
THAT should be the norm... then none of us would have to drive more than 10-20 miles to do our work for the day and we'd all be helping horses instead of coming in behind these hacks to fix the problems and the public wouldn't be having a cow when we hand them the bill.
And we wouldn't be afraid to refer a client to someone just because they're in their area.
Horseshoeing schools need to have more of a conscience when sending out their diplomas.



First of all, price is a valid area to compete. There are three...price, quality and service/delivery. Maybe a guy is cheap because he's no good and doesn't figure he's worth much. On the other hand maybe he's just a bit more resourcefull and can do the job more cost effectively. In any case, a consumer needs to look at bang for the buck rather than just price. Undercutting price to gain market share can be a valid marketing strategy. There are three basic areas in which to compete...price, delivery/service and quality. You need to know what your intended market wants and use it. Super high quality at a super high price doesn't fit every one's needs which is probably why I don't drive a $100,000 car. Around here the backyard folks want a low price. It's (almost) a free market and people can charge what they want. If any one tries to castrate them, I'll be fighting on their side.

Is your scheeme going to get rid of he omish? They're the big undercutters around here. Lots of people go to them, including one guy I know who has a carriage business. He gets his draft hoprses shod for $35. It's kept him on the road though and he doesn't see any reason to pay me $200 or more. I even have family (wifes family that is) who go to them. I charge more to shoe a horse that they pay for their horses LOL.

[Phil Armitage]

Very good replys and I respect all of them. Parimeter fitting does not place the shoe in the center of the foot according to Ducket or NB principles. As a matter of fact to get the parimeter fit one would have to dress a significant amount of dorsal wall on most horses which compromises the integrity of the wall and leads to more problems.

NB principles and Ducket is all about finding the center of the foot and supporting the bone coloumb. We also pretty much a agree that hoof pasturn alignment is the right thing to do. Properly trimming heels and maintaining strong healthy frog, bars sole thickness with proper foot landing helps align the pasturn bones and maintain hoof pasturn alignment. The information on how to achieve hoof pasturn alignment that the AFA provides is very misleading it is also used as a way to determine how much heel and toe to trim, if the foot is broken back then remove more toe and leave heel, if the foot is broken forward then leave more toe and trim heel, this is very misleading and it is a total disregard for the internal working of the foot. I also do not think this is a good way to start off new farriers.

If parimeter fitting is just a standard then why did Craig Trnka debate Gene Ovyneck on the subject?

Why not teach new farriers and veteran farriers on how to achieve healthy properly functioning feet? Don't make a claim that AFA standards are a good start and foundation to start out with. That is a weak foundation with a disregard to balance and foot function.

If none of this is new and has been around for a long time, then I am even more disapointed in what the AFA teaches. Why is all this good information being ignored by the AFA?

[shoesofiron]

"I don't know much about the schools because I never went to one but are you trying to say that farriers are laming horses because they aren't certified? If you are you'd have trouble making that one stick."

No sir.
They're laming horses because all they have to go on is what they learn in their 6,8,12,16 week program that is designed to enlist students, not turn out farriers.
Hey, I never said you ought to be certified or licensed to shoe.
I said there ought to be some way to make these kids understand that you can't sustain a business for forty bucks a head. Maybe you can, driving a buggy from stop to stop... hey I know an Amish kid that drives a tractor (a truck would be too "English") and pulls his wagon of stuff behind him.
There ARE guys/gals out there who still can't shoe a fly after 20 years.
Yes, I get alot of injury referals from people like that so they help me at times.
But for kids coming out of school to "just charge a little under the going rate" only perpetuates the idea that it's stil lcheap to get a horse shod.
What other business can you go into and without ever figuring out your costs for doing business, determine your fees for your services?
That's what's going on.
They learn the v-e-r-y basics then think, so-and-so charges 55 bucks and he seems busy so I'll start out at 45.
I'd like to see someone run a multi-county rural farrier business for under 40 bucks a head with the intent of retiring from the trade after say 25-30 years.
If you can, call me and show me how much I'd have to live on for the rest of my life.
Some of the best shoers I know aren't certified nor interested in it.
I only mentioned the "cajoling" part as a tongue in cheek comment. When I was down with a broken heel, it was guys in the IFA that got me through it by helping me get my clients horses caught up and making the checks out to me. Some were certified, some were not.
And there's nothing wrong with being competetive in pricing.
If the "going rate" is 80 bucks, 40 is not being competetive. It's being ******.

Why would anyone WANT to shoe horses that cheaply anyways?
WHY, if you can get 80-90-100 bucks would you want to only charge 40?
That's like voluntarily telling your boss you want a pay cut.... a BIG pay cut.
Maybe that's what's so attractive about farriery... it draws people into the profession that may well be fairly unemployable elsewhere.... due to mental limitations.
I am not here to subsidize someone's horse habit/hobby/infatuation.
I'm here to earn a living and under the cir***stances, considering the skills and risk that OUGHT to be "the norm" for even a rookie shoer, that living (IMO) should be something at least as good as I can get in an average factory.
And undercutting hacks do a lot to keep that from happening because owners think undercutting hacks are the norm.
I for one don't like to be considered in the same breath as a hack, but that's just me.
Look. This is a job that you really need to be a self-starter in to do. So if you're driven enough to do it, why not at least TRY and do it well? Why not do something to put a little shine on the profession instead of sinking to the lowest common denominator. Why not take a little pride in your work by KNOWING you're doing it well instead of isolating yourself and trying to convince others you're so good?
A friend of mine and I were talking about this the other day. We call it the "Opie Syndrome"... from Mayberry RFD.
Some of you may not remember this but there was an episode where the grand prize for a foot race at the fair was this shiny pocket knife.
Opie was goin all around town telling everyone who listened that he was going to win that knife because he was so fast. "I'm so fast!" he'd tell every one.
Trouble was, Opie had never raced against anyone and finished dead last in the race against guys he'd never met before.
Bubble burst.
Maybe that's why everyone's so against getting educated on the trade, they're afraid of being exposed for what they are: Hacks with no business plan and no respect for what this trade is supposed to be about.
The world would be a better place without 'em and we don't need to be breeding more of them... hence the suggestion of castration.
And if you're in their corner... tell me something:
What good does it do to have so many horses owned by so many people that have no business owning them because they're too poor to pay for the basic needs of the horse? And too willfully ignorant to know the horse needs trained before the shoer gets there (you get a lot of dinks at 40 bucks)?
It definitely shows a complete lack of respect for what a shoer is.
"Aw hell... jus git in there an hang on... she's a little tough on her back feet but yer used to it, aint'cha? Here's yer 40 bucks... thanks man, I hope that gash heals up before you have to come back".
I hate hacks and the people who use them. The horse industry would be much better off without them.
Less dinks, less ******* owners, less headaches, less lameness.

[Phil Armitage]

Scott I totaly understand what your saying, but the AFA is not the only educator around. As far as what one charges, that is an issue in all trades. I have never been asked if I am certified or offered more money if I become certified or feel that I can charge more if I become certified. I run a successfull buisness and charge what I think is fair right now and I continue my education and gain experience. I remember 20 years ago working in a Electrical wharehouse listening to all the Master and Journymen Electricians complaining about what the competitor charged and getting undercut the farrier trade is not the only trade affected by this. Guys makeing statements you get what you pay for, etc etc etc. I also remember many ole timers who where savy enough to keep on earning a liveing even if the economy was bad, even charge lower than minimum wage. I have been around long enough to see failing economy. Horses are a luxury not a need and when times are tough many farriers will be scrambleing for all the work they can get, the ones that survive are the farriers that were fair and took care of the little guy even when times were good.

Anyways, I am not attacking the AFA, I am hopeing to contribute to new ideas and make changes, I think the education and testing needs to be significantly changed. I think a good place to start is with new leadership and then see what happens internaly at the top.

The best way to be is to define who you are, don't let others or orginizations define who you are. People can get you down if you base who you are on what others think. If your a hard working honest individual then that is who you are and nobody can take that away from you.

[Mike Ferrara]

Phil, you make it sound like setting a shoe back or rolling/rockering a toe to adress breakover is something new or that it started with NB or Ducket. It's not new, didn't start with them and the exact ideal location to place or roll a shoe is something that can be debated.

For starters, not all barefoot horses will roll their own toe where some folks claim they should. Indeed some will barely dull the edge of the wall. I don't have to go any further than my own back yard to see that. P3 location may be one factor that determines the ideal position for a shoe but it's not the only factor. In the "old days" we were taught to read feet and shoes and watch horses move to help decide how to set them up. Now we have "Shoeing for Dummies" formulas. If using ducketts dot or the NB protocol was all there was to it a guy who's handy with his hands can get around a horse could learn to shoe horses in a week. It only takes a few minutes to read and understand those protocols but it takes a while to see that trying to strictly apply them to every foot you come across is folly.

[Phil Armitage]

Phil, you make it sound like setting a shoe back or rolling/rockering a toe to adress breakover is something new or that it started with NB or Ducket. It's not new, didn't start with them and the exact ideal location to place or roll a shoe is something that can be debated.

For starters, not all barefoot horses will roll their own toe where some folks claim they should. Indeed some will barely dull the edge of the wall. I don't have to go any further than my own back yard to see that. P3 location may be one factor that determines the ideal position for a shoe but it's not the only factor. In the "old days" we were taught to read feet and shoes and watch horses move to help decide how to set them up. Now we have "Shoeing for Dummies" formulas. If using ducketts dot or the NB protocol was all there was to it a guy who's handy with his hands can get around a horse could learn to shoe horses in a week. It only takes a few minutes to read and understand those protocols but it takes a while to see that trying to strictly apply them to every foot you come across is folly.

If you were going to educate and certify a farrier how would you go about it? If a new farrier asked you how do you determine how much to trim off what would you tell them. If they asked where to place the shoe what would you tell them. When they drew blood or consistantly left the foot too long how would you help them. Given enough time we all learn from trial and error and our mistakes, but is that a good teacher. When veteran farriers come up with a way to explain in detail how to trim feet according to each individual horse then I am going to listen, new information or not.

Do you recall in Doug Butlers book when he says the key to determineing how to balance feet is to be able to visualise the location of P3? Well I agree with that statement I think it is a very imporant part of what we do, as a matter of fact extremely important. NB and Ducket help the farrier determine where P3 is. Now we can find that true foot in a mass of deformaty.

[Phil Armitage]

Maybe we should start a new thread and call it AFA and Education?

[Phil Armitage]

While I am going on about this. I just got a thought, I was thinking even if I passed the test. What have I accomplished?

1. I would have to practice modifications on steel shoes to make a shoe board. Lets go over some of the shoes required for the shoe board, Sqaure toe (hardly ever use it at least not that sqaure) Rolled toe (I like that one) Rockered toe (rarely use it) Bar shoe (I don't know if I like bar shoes) Trailers (never use them).

2. I would have to study anatomy, basicly read Doug Butlers book on shoeing principles and most of the information is vaque and open for intepretation.

3. I would have to do a live shoeing demo for a certifier. I know I can parimeter fit and sculp any foot to get it under the horses leg, but I would be tempted to maintain interity in the hoof wall and still get the shoe and support under the horse. Then I would have to listen to lame remarks about NB and so on.

So I sit here and say is it worth it? Well I still think it is and therefore have signed up to get my CF this spring. So when I have my CF and CJF will that make me a better horseshoer or just someone that can now say hey guys I have it, now can we talk?

[Phil Armitage]

Hey Mike and Scott, can you post pictures of what your normal shoeing looks like. I think pictures say more than words. Kind of a cyber critque of your peers, which is what the AFA claims they are doing and it helps us. Here is a picture of a horse I have been shoeing for 3 years and pretty much what I do day to day.

[tbloomer]

These "newbies" are the main cause for farrier fees to be as low as they are. They graduate, come into an area, don't apprentice, and start charging less than "the going rate" to get business and SURPRISE!!!! in a few years, they realize they haven't made enough to cover their expenses to sustain their business and they go back to brick-laying.
I guess my area is an exception. The recent farrier school grads that I have met all but one started out charging 15% to 20% more than the going rate. They do this because their instructors told them to set their prices high. The newbies that I have met who apprenticed with the established "old timers" are the ones who trim for $20 and shoe for $60.

I've been in this business for 4 years. The folks who are undercutting my prices are the established farriers who turn away business every day. Most of the CJFs in my area charge less than me. It's frustrating because I can't talk them into raising their prices.

When I was doing research on US farrier schools, every school that I looked at had literature, which talked about starting out with your prices high and the reasons why a new farrier should do that. So from my perspective as a newbie, it is the established farriers who are keeping the prices low. It is the established farriers who are afraid to set their prices equal to or higher than mine. It is the established farriers who are loosing business to me due to their failure to provide good service, NOT due to a lack of skill in shoeing horses.

When I go into a new barn and the established farrier begins loosing accounts to me the first thing I see is that the quality of shoeing and service improves dramatically. Why, because these experienced farriers CAN deliver higher quality, they just DON'T choose to do it. When they find out that I'm charging 25% to 50% more they raise their prices by 10%. It’s safer. You can jerk your customers around and they’ll put up with it because you’re still cheaper then the other guy.

It's frustrating. The established farriers set horse owners’ expectations of price. The premium customers, the ones everybody wants to shoe for, would not consider using a farrier who is fresh out of school. They want someone who has established a reputation and a track record. Unfortunately, my perception is that those who have been there and done that are the ones who are hurting the trade.

I've only lost 2 or 3 customers each year due to price increases. So in my considered opinion, it is the established farriers who are holding back this trade. I don't see certification playing into this situation, because horse owners don't even know that it exists.

Tom Bloomer, CF

[Mike Ferrara]

Wow man you wrote a lot but I'll try.

"I don't know much about the schools because I never went to one but are you trying to say that farriers are laming horses because they aren't certified? If you are you'd have trouble making that one stick."

No sir.
They're laming horses because all they have to go on is what they learn in their 6,8,12,16 week program that is designed to enlist students, not turn out farriers.

I cross paths with a couple of shoers that I don't think are so good but I'm really not seeing all these horses that are lamed by poor farriery. I hear a lot about it on the net but I don't see it. I've only seen one of the cheap guys around here work but he actually did a decent job. On the other hand I've seen the work of two of the most expensive and watched one of them work and they're gamokes. ok, maybe not gamokes but certainly nothing special. One is certified and one isn't.

Hey, I never said you ought to be certified or licensed to shoe.
I said there ought to be some way to make these kids understand that you can't sustain a business for forty bucks a head. Maybe you can, driving a buggy from stop to stop... hey I know an Amish kid that drives a tractor (a truck would be too "English") and pulls his wagon of stuff behind him.
There ARE guys/gals out there who still can't shoe a fly after 20 years.
Yes, I get alot of injury referals from people like that so they help me at times.
But for kids coming out of school to "just charge a little under the going rate" only perpetuates the idea that it's stil lcheap to get a horse shod.
What other business can you go into and without ever figuring out your costs for doing business, determine your fees for your services?
That's what's going on.

You have this in all businesses. Even when there is a plan they often fail. Lots of skilled people just aren't very good business people...even the ones who have an MBA as is evident by all the huge corporations that are failing and running for cheap labor.

They learn the v-e-r-y basics then think, so-and-so charges 55 bucks and he seems busy so I'll start out at 45.
I'd like to see someone run a multi-county rural farrier business for under 40 bucks a head with the intent of retiring from the trade after say 25-30 years.
If you can, call me and show me how much I'd have to live on for the rest of my life.

The market isn't interested in whether or not you'll be able to retire.



Why would anyone WANT to shoe horses that cheaply anyways?
WHY, if you can get 80-90-100 bucks would you want to only charge 40?
That's like voluntarily telling your boss you want a pay cut.... a BIG pay cut.
Maybe that's what's so attractive about farriery... it draws people into the profession that may well be fairly unemployable elsewhere.... due to mental limitations.
I am not here to subsidize someone's horse habit/hobby/infatuation.
I'm here to earn a living and under the cir***stances, considering the skills and risk that OUGHT to be "the norm" for even a rookie shoer, that living (IMO) should be something at least as good as I can get in an average factory.

Around here, the average factory job pays $8/hour without much in the way of benefits and people get hurt doing those jobs too. A guy could make WAY more just by trimming horses for $15/head. I charge $40 for it. I charge $140 for 4 kegs and it goes up from there but...I have to go work for fairly wealthy folks who can afford that. There's plenty of healthy backyard horses around here and some of these folks aren't spending very much at all on hoofcare. So, what does it cost to own a horse? I know some of these people who just trade a horse off if they need more than the omish shoer (or whoever) can provide. My guess is that through all of history, up until recent years, that's the way it would be done. If the animal is too hard to maintain...get another one. When a car starts getting expensive to maintain, I don't hire a super expensive, high class mechanic...I get a new car.

you and I want to make a lot because of what we know and what we can do. Not every one is going to take advantage of those skills and they don't see the need to pay for them.


And undercutting hacks do a lot to keep that from happening because owners think undercutting hacks are the norm.
I for one don't like to be considered in the same breath as a hack, but that's just me.

You're associating price with quality, I think. I'm not convinced there's that much of a correlation. Again, reference the guy I know with the carriage business who goes to the omish and gets drafts shod for $35 (that's for new shoes BTW). The work the omish do IS meeting his needs and expextations. From a business point of view, why would he even consider paying me what I would charge? He'd have to give a lot of carriage rides to make up the difference.


Look. This is a job that you really need to be a self-starter in to do. So if you're driven enough to do it, why not at least TRY and do it well? Why not do something to put a little shine on the profession instead of sinking to the lowest common denominator. Why not take a little pride in your work by KNOWING you're doing it well instead of isolating yourself and trying to convince others you're so good?


It's my clients that need to be convinced. Their horses are the test. You've been around saddlehorses some right? I have a client that I first started working for well over 20 years ago. Years ago she used Warren Fontain, then when he cut back she used Carl Borsht (sp?), then she used Bob Lanners and then me. When I left shoeing full time she went back to Bob for the show horses. She had to try others for the school horses and other flat stuff. She wasn't happy and started trailoring to a clinic but wasn't happy with that either. When I started again, they jumped on it and Bob wanted out of the place all together. I guess my work compares favorably with the best that she's had and is head and shoulders above the rest (that's the client talking, not me). Who else do I need to convince? There's lots of certified guys right in their back yard but I drive 4 hours to shoe those horses and I charge for it. So...I should feel the need to convince the certified guys that I drive past to get there that I can shoe a horse? I don't think so.

A friend of mine and I were talking about this the other day. We call it the "Opie Syndrome"... from Mayberry RFD.
Some of you may not remember this but there was an episode where the grand prize for a foot race at the fair was this shiny pocket knife.
Opie was goin all around town telling everyone who listened that he was going to win that knife because he was so fast. "I'm so fast!" he'd tell every one.
Trouble was, Opie had never raced against anyone and finished dead last in the race against guys he'd never met before.
Bubble burst.
Maybe that's why everyone's so against getting educated on the trade, they're afraid of being exposed for what they are: Hacks with no business plan and no respect for what this trade is supposed to be about.

Who's aganist education? What is this trade supposed to be about and who decides?

The world would be a better place without 'em and we don't need to be breeding more of them... hence the suggestion of castration.
And if you're in their corner... tell me something:
What good does it do to have so many horses owned by so many people that have no business owning them because they're too poor to pay for the basic needs of the horse?

Who decides who has "business" owning a horse? You? Me? Who says these people can't afford the basic needs of the horse? You're assuming that all horses need a farrier that charges what we do. I think it's more than clear that some horses can get by with less. Or is it even less? That's still assuming that the cheaper guys aren't good and I haven't seen that correlation between price and quality made yet. Things might be better for you and I if everyone had their prices up but price fixing is illegal in this country...well unless it's the government or the oil companies doing it.

I don't know what else you've done in your life but I've been a full time farrier, an engineer working in large corporations and I've owned a retail store and scuba diving school. In my experience, MOST people aren't very good at what they do for a living. MANY of those shlocks and hacks have very impressive cridentials and LOTS of education and it matters not.

[tbloomer]

Hey Mike and Scott, can you post pictures of what your normal shoeing looks like. I think pictures say more than words. Kind of a cyber critque of your peers, which is what the AFA claims they are doing and it helps us. Here is a picture of a horse I have been shoeing for 3 years and pretty much what I do day to day.
Based on this one image, It looks like it would pass muster on an AFA CF exam. How about a heel shot or a ground surface view? Bottom line, does the horse like it? Looks like a decent quality foot and a decent quality shoeing job. It's about 10 times better than the work I see from the established farriers in the barns around here . . . untill they start loosing business, then their work looks just like that :) Go figure!

Did you do that hot or cold? Either way, it looks good 'nuff for PROFESSIONAL status.

Tom Bloomer, CF

[Mike Ferrara]

If you were going to educate and certify a farrier how would you go about it? If a new farrier asked you how do you determine how much to trim off what would you tell them. If they asked where to place the shoe what would you tell them. When they drew blood or consistantly left the foot too long how would you help them. Given enough time we all learn from trial and error and our mistakes, but is that a good teacher. When veteran farriers come up with a way to explain in detail how to trim feet according to each individual horse then I am going to listen, new information or not.

Well, I don't teach farriery. However, I do read up on whatever I find, consider it and make use of it as I see fit. It never hurts to have one or more methods that you can use to evaluate a foot, which is what those methods are, IMO. Still there's more to it and plenty of exceptions.

Do you recall in Doug Butlers book when he says the key to determineing how to balance feet is to be able to visualise the location of P3? Well I agree with that statement I think it is a very imporant part of what we do, as a matter of fact extremely important. NB and Ducket help the farrier determine where P3 is. Now we can find that true foot in a mass of deformaty.

Actually I just looked it up to check and what he said was to visualize the ideal. Reference "the Principles of Horseshoeing 2" page 161. I didn't see P3 mentioned there. I agree NB and ducket do help locate P3 (as long as it's where it's supposed to be as in the feet they used to develop those guidelines) and that can be helpful.

[Mike Ferrara]

Good point Tom. Some of the established guys around here are pretty cheap. I haven't seen their work but when one of them died I got a few calls from his clients but I was to expensive for them. And see...retirement wasn't an issue for him.

[Mike Ferrara]

Phil, sorry my only digital camera stinks. What would I post though...one that looks the way I like or one of the really messed up ones that I strugle with? I could find a pretty one to post but then there are the inbred, stallbound gimps (some of which may get done twice a year whether they need it or not) that I probably won't ever cure. I do what I can though. Do you have any pictures of any like that?

[tbloomer]

Retire from shoeing horses? I'll retire when Bob Skradzio and Jim Keith hang up thier aprons. It would kill me just trying to keep up with clinching and finishing for either one of those guys. What about the late Edward Martin? Did he ever really retire? Last week I met a guy who went to a clinic with Edward Martin, back when he was just a youngster in his late 70s. Martin was turning out hand made fullered draft shoes faster than 3 CJFs could trim the feet and nail 'em on. Oh yea, he did it all by the eagle eye method. Never touched the hoof or took a measurement.

I've asked Skradzio about when he is going to retire . . . he just smiles and says, "I think about it sometimes, but then what would I do?"

I say bury me in my shoeing apron and leave my hammer and tongs in my hands. Since I've always kept my prices high and always worked my steel hot, I'll probably be shoeing John Edwards' horses when I "cross over."

Tom Bloomer, CF

[Phil Armitage]

Phil, sorry my only digital camera stinks. What would I post though...one that looks the way I like or one of the really messed up ones that I strugle with? I could find a pretty one to post but then there are the inbred, stallbound gimps (some of which may get done twice a year whether they need it or not) that I probably won't ever cure. I do what I can though. Do you have any pictures of any like that?

Here is a horse I use to struggle with, thank goodness he moved. Got him what they call serviceably sound. Dead lame when I first started him, could barely walk out of his stall. Ugly feet, and he would loose shoes like crazy. He was a challenge and I learned alot from it.

[Phil Armitage]

Here is a shot of the finish work. Amazeing what a little rasping will do. These feet would fall apart around 4 weeks and I was lucky to get him done every 6 weeks.

[Phil Armitage]

Here is a shot after around 6 weeks. Yikes. Flat soled that gave to thumb pressure and nobody listened to any of us farriers on the condition of these feet.

[beslagsmed]

Phil,
Those remind me of a customer I have. It took 2 yrs of work to get his front feet up and serviceable. They were so spread out and flat. I hated every time the phone rang - he lost a shoe. When I started he was on a #7 werkman. Now I put a #4 werkman on. I get a good 7 weeks out of him. Haven't lot a shoe in about 1.5 yrs now. He was the same, so thin soled after 6 weeks I could thumb press the sole with out trim. Now sole is good and hard. Amazing the change after we got some concave back in the foot.
Mikel

[tbloomer]

Of course you can't talk them into steel shoes and pads. Let me guess, WP or Hunter? What a shame. Yea, just going to 3 weeks would make a HUGE difference. Ship him off to Arizona! Does he live in a swamp? About 75% of the horses I work on around here look like that if I can't get under 'em every 4 weeks. If the customer argues about it, I move on. It's not worth argueing with somebody that isn't willing to spend their money to keep a horse sound.

Tom Bloomer, CF

[Rick Burten]

So to recap:
Get free beer
Get to gripe
Get to run the world
Get good insurance and discounts
Seems like a win, win, win, win, situation.


And all for the measly, paltry pittance of $105.00/year!

America, what a country!

[Mike Ferrara]

Good one Phil. I need to buy a useable camera.

I don't have any criticisms but I do have a comment. Notice how the feet didn't magically turn into different kind of feet. I did a bunch of these a few months ago (they're all barefoot). Some were lame and went "sound" after some work. On those, I did lop off all the collapsed heel (it's not good for anything anyway) and pulled back the toes. What else can you do? Here's the kicker though...I haven't seen those horses since. That was their anual trimming and if I ever do see them again my guess is that they will have grown right back to what they were.

Do you think a farrier caused that foot you posted? I don't.

[Mike Ferrara]

And all for the measly, paltry pittance of $105.00/year!

America, what a country!

$105 will buy a fair amount of beer and buying good beer to be shared with good friends is better than paying strokes to be strokes...IMO of course. LOL

[Rick Burten]

$105 will buy a fair amount of beer and buying good beer to be shared with good friends is better than paying strokes to be strokes...IMO of course. LOL

But can you get a $50,000.00 ADD policy for that sum? And considering the amount of beer my friends/collegues can consume, that ADD policy could come in mighty handy :o

"First the silver ran out, then the people ran out, then the whiskey ran out, then the beer ran out...." (from the movie The Outlaw Josie Wales)

[Phil Armitage]

Good one Phil. I need to buy a useable camera.

I don't have any criticisms but I do have a comment. Notice how the feet didn't magically turn into different kind of feet. I did a bunch of these a few months ago (they're all barefoot). Some were lame and went "sound" after some work. On those, I did lop off all the collapsed heel (it's not good for anything anyway) and pulled back the toes. What else can you do? Here's the kicker though...I haven't seen those horses since. That was their anual trimming and if I ever do see them again my guess is that they will have grown right back to what they were.

Do you think a farrier caused that foot you posted? I don't.

No I do not think a farrier caused it. It is what it is. Seen alot of feet grow right back to what they were if not maintained.

[Phil Armitage]

Of course you can't talk them into steel shoes and pads. Let me guess, WP or Hunter? What a shame. Yea, just going to 3 weeks would make a HUGE difference. Ship him off to Arizona! Does he live in a swamp? About 75% of the horses I work on around here look like that if I can't get under 'em every 4 weeks. If the customer argues about it, I move on. It's not worth argueing with somebody that isn't willing to spend their money to keep a horse sound.

Tom Bloomer, CF

I think he has a little of both in his blood. :) Last year he lived in deep mud for the Spring and most of the summer was pretty wet.

[Phil Armitage]

Phil,
Those remind me of a customer I have. It took 2 yrs of work to get his front feet up and serviceable. They were so spread out and flat. I hated every time the phone rang - he lost a shoe. When I started he was on a #7 werkman. Now I put a #4 werkman on. I get a good 7 weeks out of him. Haven't lot a shoe in about 1.5 yrs now. He was the same, so thin soled after 6 weeks I could thumb press the sole with out trim. Now sole is good and hard. Amazing the change after we got some concave back in the foot.
Mikel

It is nice feeling when you get feet like that under control and get the horse sound. The other half of the job is the owner, proper diet and turn out.

[Dianne Lemmon]

Retire from shoeing horses? I'll retire when Bob Skradzio and Jim Keith hang up thier aprons. It would kill me just trying to keep up with clinching and finishing for either one of those guys. What about the late Edward Martin? Did he ever really retire? Last week I met a guy who went to a clinic with Edward Martin, back when he was just a youngster in his late 70s. Martin was turning out hand made fullered draft shoes faster than 3 CJFs could trim the feet and nail 'em on. Oh yea, he did it all by the eagle eye method. Never touched the hoof or took a measurement.

I've asked Skradzio about when he is going to retire . . . he just smiles and says, "I think about it sometimes, but then what would I do?"

I say bury me in my shoeing apron and leave my hammer and tongs in my hands. Since I've always kept my prices high and always worked my steel hot, I'll probably be shoeing John Edwards' horses when I "cross over."

Tom Bloomer, CF


Tom,

These men are my heros. I have had the pleasure of sharing a forge with the Honorable Mr. Martin (Has QEII knighted him yet?) I also cherish my conversations with Mr. Skradzio. Ironically it's almost daily I remember something Bob Skradzio had said and find an application for it in my current work. It's sometimes amazing how theories and thoughts come full circle in this trade. I shall only aspire to leave the indelible mark on the trade as these gentlemen have.

Dianne
(Fondest Memories of Mr. Martin "AYE LAssie strike that iron while 'eeeeeeees 'ot" oh and " Weeee dram of whiskey")

[Phil Armitage]

I like Mr. Skradzio loved the things he said.

"you stray you pay" I love that one.

"What size shoe do you put on a club foot?" "A smaller shoe the foot is smaller put on a smaller shoe". Kind of like saying duh, this is easy folks use common sense.

he always charges for a pulled shoe, not his fault a shoe comes off and besides there is lot worse things than looseing a shoe.

I like his hard working and keep it simple and practicle attitude.

[tbloomer]

I like Mr. Skradzio . . .
I like his hard working and keep it simple and practicle attitude.
Yes, after 63 years of shoeing horses he tells us that it is a simple thing. Ha Ha Ha. AND he says that with a straight face. It will take me another 20 years to learn half of what he has forgotten in his conscious mind and committed to a pure reflex action of hand/eye coordination.

Tom Bloomer, CF

[shoesofiron]

While I am going on about this. I just got a thought, I was thinking even if I passed the test. What have I accomplished?

1. I would have to practice modifications on steel shoes to make a shoe board. Lets go over some of the shoes required for the shoe board, Sqaure toe (hardly ever use it at least not that sqaure) Rolled toe (I like that one) Rockered toe (rarely use it) Bar shoe (I don't know if I like bar shoes) Trailers (never use them).

Huh. I didn't have to practice. I just read the requirements for what they wanted, built 'em, shined 'em up a little with a wire brush and turned 'em in. What's so hard about that?


2. I would have to study anatomy, basicly read Doug Butlers book on shoeing principles and most of the information is vaque and open for intepretation.

How many bones are in a knee? How about where the Suspensory ligaments are originated at and their insertion points? What are the names of the types of joints in a horses bony column? What do you call it if a horse hits its right front quarter with an opposite hind foot?
Pretty cut and dry stuff.
But I had that same perception before I took them too.

3. I would have to do a live shoeing demo for a certifier. I know I can parimeter fit and sculp any foot to get it under the horses leg, but I would be tempted to maintain interity in the hoof wall and still get the shoe and support under the horse. Then I would have to listen to lame remarks about NB and so on.

Again, misperceptions.

So I sit here and say is it worth it? Well I still think it is and therefore have signed up to get my CF this spring. So when I have my CF and CJF will that make me a better horseshoer or just someone that can now say hey guys I have it, now can we talk?

Yes it will, you don't have to say anything.

[shoesofiron]

What about the late Edward Martin? Did he ever really retire? Tom Bloomer, CF

Ummm... Mr. Martin is not dead... but I'm sure he'd be glad to know you're thinking of him.

[tbloomer]

Ummm... Mr. Martin is not dead... but I'm sure he'd be glad to know you're thinking of him.

Sorry my mistake. That's a good thing then.

TB

[Phil Armitage]

Reply to Scott: Scott in red and mine are in black.

How many bones are in a knee? How about where the Suspensory ligaments are originated at and their insertion points? What are the names of the types of joints in a horses bony column? What do you call it if a horse hits its right front quarter with an opposite hind foot?
Pretty cut and dry stuff.

I quess this is kind of neat stuff to know, but how does this really make one a better trimmer or shoer? Why not spend time learning how to identify the toe calouse, where to trim the heels to, where to trim the toe to, how to trim the bars and frog, what is retained sole, what is live sole. Things that really make a difference in keeping a foot healthy and sound. Really give this some thought, what is the primary objective of a farrier? Really think about it very hard. I think it is to provide protection, support and traction or lack of traction depending what the horses job is. Prevent those feet from becomeing sore and you can prevent or even fix many problem in the rest of the horses body. Pretty simple isnt it, but you have to learn what is normal before you can accomplish this. Where does the AFA teach a farrier how to do a proper trim as extensive as Natural Balance principles. The most important part of the job is keep the feet healthy, strong and pain free.

[Jason Maki]

Phil,
does a podiatrist need to ONLY study the bones of the foot?
Jason

[brian robertson]

Heard some bad news on the g**** vine from Bill Miller, Edward Martin had another stroke recently and is not doing well. Should be in all our thoughts and prayers.

[Phil Armitage]

Phil,
does a podiatrist need to ONLY study the bones of the foot?
Jason

I do not know, I am not a podiatrist nor am I a Vet. Does a Vet need to know the foot?

[Mike Ferrara]

I do not know, I am not a podiatrist nor am I a Vet. Does a Vet need to know the foot?

Let me help Phil. Podietry is a specialty. First you have to be an MD or whatever...you need to all the way through medical school. We aren't podietrists though and we don't have to go to medical school. If we were all DVMs and went on to specialize in the equine foot and lower leg, we could be podiatrists. The hour and a half (ok, I'm slow) we spend shoeing a horse would go for about $2500, we could administer drugs, perform surgery and we would finally be required to get that license that we always wanted. LOL

Ignorance isn't something to be proud of and knowing something about a horses lower leg can come in handy but isn't too critical in most shoeing/trimming jobs because we can't see, measure, diagnose or really do anything with all those other body parts. We know they're there though.

[Phil Armitage]

Let me help Phil. Podietry is a specialty. First you have to be an MD or whatever...you need to all the way through medical school. We aren't podietrists though and we don't have to go to medical school. If we were all DVMs and went on to specialize in the equine foot and lower leg, we could be podiatrists. The hour and a half (ok, I'm slow) we spend shoeing a horse would go for about $2500, we could administer drugs, perform surgery and we would finally be required to get that license that we always wanted. LOL

Ignorance isn't something to be proud of and knowing something about a horses lower leg can come in handy but isn't too critical in most shoeing/trimming jobs because we can't see, measure, diagnose or really do anything with all those other body parts. We know they're there though.

This is really ironic, I read Craig Trnka's recent letter in the PF. His comment on education is great. I totaly understand what he is saying and where he is comeing from. There are two types of education, there is alot we learn that you cannot find in books.

[shoesofiron]

I quess this is kind of neat stuff to know, but how does this really make one a better trimmer or shoer? Why not spend time learning how to identify the toe calouse, where to trim the heels to, where to trim the toe to, how to trim the bars and frog, what is retained sole, what is live sole. Things that really make a difference in keeping a foot healthy and sound. Really give this some thought, what is the primary objective of a farrier? Really think about it very hard. I think it is to provide protection, support and traction or lack of traction depending what the horses job is. Prevent those feet from becomeing sore and you can prevent or even fix many problem in the rest of the horses body. Pretty simple isnt it, but you have to learn what is normal before you can accomplish this. Where does the AFA teach a farrier how to do a proper trim as extensive as Natural Balance principles. The most important part of the job is keep the feet healthy, strong and pain free.

Phil,
I'm a horseshoer, not a footshoer.
Until someone has a good working knowledge of the structures of a horses limb - from the bone out, all the supporting ligaments, tendons, etc and the role they play in locomotion... sure, knowing where P3 is, is a wonderful thing to be able to envision, but knowing the stresses applied to it and how the internal structures are affected by the horse as it goes through its job... to be able to help tune a horse for its conformational defects...
For instance, I do a horse that if trimmed by NBS principles behind, would be crippled and unable to perform. Its foot is screwed on that crooked. Instead, this horse shows at the highest levels in its discipline.
There are so many things a farrier can do to help a horse. I learned this while shoeing Standardbreds. Hock problems, knees problems, suspensory problems, tendon issues, can all be helped somewhat (I know you can't shoe a horse sound) just by knowing anatomy of the limb as well as the foot.
Aligning the bony column should be a goal of every job.
Knowing how to help a crooked horse (how many perfectly straight ones do you do?) is part of our job.
What part is crooked?
How does it affect the rest of the limb and how it loads or works?
What about the crooked parts below that?
I guess I should be using "deviations" or "deformities", but crooked works here.
Maybe I've spent more time working on less talented individuals than some, I dunno....
But I know every horse is different and they require individual answers. It's all a compromise in this business, you never get something for nothing.

[Miguelhotstuff]

You need to know the anatomy aspect for one simple reason.

So when your client asks you about it you don't say " aaaaaaaaaa I dunno I no vet, I simple horseshoer". As a complete confused stare crosses your face. Good for business I guess. Maybe people should face the facts and realize there is more to horseshoeing than nailing ****** keg shoes on a horse and rasp all the foot hanging out and call it NB.

Miguel

[Phil Armitage]

You need to know the anatomy aspect for one simple reason.

So when your client asks you about it you don't say " aaaaaaaaaa I dunno I no vet, I simple horseshoer". As a complete confused stare crosses your face. Good for business I guess. Maybe people should face the facts and realize there is more to horseshoeing than nailing ****** keg shoes on a horse and rasp all the foot hanging out and call it NB.

Miguel

That is a good point Miquel, I never said anatomy is not important. I am all for learning about it. I am saying that there is much more that is even more important. What do you know about NB, if you have attended a NB clinic you would not have made the remarks you made. The first night of the clinic is very indepth in anatomy and structures of the foot. The rest of the clinic is a couple of days of indepth very detailed hands on learning trimming and shoeing. Best education I have had to date on top of my 8 years of shoeing full time and attending many other clinic on my time and cost.

I am not easly impressed with someone that can simply spew book knowledge. Sooner of later you will have to walk the talk and then lets see what is more important.

I know what I am, and I am not a Vet. I hear many farriers say they are not hoof shoers they are horseshoers. Of course we are horseshoers, but our biggest responsibility is the foot and to gain or maintain the healthiest hoof possible. "No foot No horse" You can know all the anatomy you want, but that will not make you a better trimmer of shoer. Learn the basics as well as you can and do it right. If a horse owner ask you something you do not know, it is better to say "I do not know, however I will look into it for you" than to pretend to know and try to BS someone just to impress them.

[Phil Armitage]

Phil,
I'm a horseshoer, not a footshoer.
Until someone has a good working knowledge of the structures of a horses limb - from the bone out, all the supporting ligaments, tendons, etc and the role they play in locomotion... sure, knowing where P3 is, is a wonderful thing to be able to envision, but knowing the stresses applied to it and how the internal structures are affected by the horse as it goes through its job... to be able to help tune a horse for its conformational defects...
For instance, I do a horse that if trimmed by NBS principles behind, would be crippled and unable to perform. Its foot is screwed on that crooked. Instead, this horse shows at the highest levels in its discipline.
There are so many things a farrier can do to help a horse. I learned this while shoeing Standardbreds. Hock problems, knees problems, suspensory problems, tendon issues, can all be helped somewhat (I know you can't shoe a horse sound) just by knowing anatomy of the limb as well as the foot.
Aligning the bony column should be a goal of every job.
Knowing how to help a crooked horse (how many perfectly straight ones do you do?) is part of our job.
What part is crooked?
How does it affect the rest of the limb and how it loads or works?
What about the crooked parts below that?
I guess I should be using "deviations" or "deformities", but crooked works here.
Maybe I've spent more time working on less talented individuals than some, I dunno....
But I know every horse is different and they require individual answers. It's all a compromise in this business, you never get something for nothing.

Scott if you truely understand what you preach then you would definately question the merits of the AFA standard especially the parimeter fit and trimming principles.

[drafthorseshoer]

The best way to be is to define who you are, don't let others or orginizations define who you are. People can get you down if you base who you are on what others think. If your a hard working honest individual then that is who you are and nobody can take that away from you.


Phil I copied your words from a previous quote. I think this says it all in a nut shell.

What I percieve from this is, We all strive for different goals in life, but the bottom line is self-worth, integrity, honesty and the desire to do the best of your ability each and everytime.
If you accomplish this then you don't have to hang your head to any man/woman.

Pride in what you do, who you are, what you want to accomplish in life.

I remember being at a certification in N.H a few yrs. back and saw a farriers box with the words, "just say no !"
I think your words should be hung for all to read .

Bruce

[shoesofiron]

Scott if you truely understand what you preach then you would definately question the merits of the AFA standard especially the parimeter fit and trimming principles.

Day after tomorrow it will be 22 years since I started shoeing full time professionally.
From that day since, I've questioned almost everything I've ever learned from reading and from my mentors.
I think today I probably have more questions than answers but I have yet to see a horse shod with a perimeter fit be harmed by it. We're talking well made, conformationally correct horses here.
Have I set toes back?, Have I trimmed to the widest part of the frog?
Long before it was popular or en vogue to have a bunch of patented, high dollar, steel junk clanging in my truck on the racks.
I'll be honest, the first time I saw an NBS shoe, my first thought was, "Huh... shoes for guys that can't run a hammer or forge".
But I looked into them. I questioned them. I went to see Gene O and listened and I saw one hell of a convincing sales pitch that worked on that horse.
"If you're not stocking these shoes in your truck, you're not forward thinking" is also what I heard.
And I've been to Redden's and heard him spout on about how the quarters ought to be gutted and the four pillars and how everyone ought to be fish hook nailing, then came the rock and roll as the next Savior to the equine digit.
I think back to how I shod trotters with a 48 degree angle, 3 3/4" of toe, a 5/16"x3/4" flat shoe with a toe crease in front and wonder how NBS might apply there, since the horse couldn't trot a lick with 3 1/2" toes and a lighter shoe.
I think of the times I've had to tweak the trim on an Arab so he didn't go to his knees, knowing there was about 3/8" more medial heel on both front feet and wonder how did it ever win a world championship without and NBS shoe on?
And I read in Pro Farrier how a guy measured the actual "breakover" of an NBS compared to a few hammer licks on the toe of an eventer... believe me, if a horse can tell that much difference, I probably can't do the horse much good.
And I look back at all the horses I've done for years that are still sound and working with a perimeter fit.
(Does that mean I don't "cheat" the toe sometimes? Hardly.)
And all the while, these methods were taught to me by guys who had run successful businesses for years doing what I was doing.
Then I see where some new and improved apparatus is being marketed to the horse owning public... not the guys that actually apply them as a cure all for every horse and how ever horse needs to be in them and every horse needs to be trimmed thusly.

Yoo hoo!?!?! Anybody home in there?
Geeeeesh... this ain't rocket science. This is doing right by the horse according to its individual make up and talent and training and workload and (sadly) budget of the owner. I haven't even gotten to the vet's role in all of this.
Had I been born a machine with laser guided eys and micrometer-calibratred hands and steel back working on an inanimate object, hey, I'd probably get it right almost every time.
But these horses go on in spite of us most of the time and I suppose if I just whacked and tacked the same shoe with the same trim I'd still have success.
I just choose to treat every horse as it's own being and hope I've learned SOMEthing over the years that allows me to give him the comfort he wants and enables him to do the job he was put here to do with some efficiency, fluidity, stability and semblence of decency . Because no matter how or what I do today, within 4 - 6 weeks, he's gonna need some attention again, even if he's barefoot.
I just ain't into snake oil.
As far as the AFA goes, and it's trimming principles, there is a certain amount of common sense that is left for you to demonstrate. They assume you have some, instead of blindly following everything everyone tells you.
My main Mentor Wally Stickley said it best, I think. "You have to know when to leave well enough alone. Take a little, leave a little and see how that works for that horse."
I know... pretty broad statement, but only years and shear numbers of feet will allow you to narrow down what you ought to do anyway.
Some horses need a rolled toe. Some don't. Some get some relief with a squared toe behind, some don't. Some like to stand camped out, some don't.
Some....
you get the point.
But I know this about the AFA as well. There's a changing of the guard every so often and that helps keep things going in a smi-guided direction. It's made up of a whole bunch of people that want to do well, help the horse and feed their families. They strive for excellence and seek knowledge from a variety of sources.
Yes, they exclude some information from being worthy of examination. That doesn't mean I do, though. It also doesn't mean thay always will in the future. Times change.
I mean, the NBS principle came and went out of style back in the 1800's and it's back again... only this time, the promoter has the edge of electricity and media to help try and sell it.
I need a gimmick like that...
lemmee see...
Maybe if I came up with a way to get owners to "join up" or find 7 games they could play while I'm shoeing... :cool:

[George Geist]

Scott,
Remember Nature Plates back in the '70s. How about plastic shoes by flex-step and coxton. I may still have some laying around somewhere. What you term perimeter fit should be more accurately termed "proper fit".

When I first was in horseshoeing school we were taught that high angle raised heel and rolled toe cured everything but the clap. I then saw egg bars used for anything and everything. Vets tend to have a shoe du jour that we have to use till they get into something else.

Presently we are in square toe mania. I even get told to square the toes when I trim barefoot. I'll be doggoned if I can figure out how! Natural BS is just an extension of this. Be patient, keep doing what you know to be right and this too will pass.
George