what's all the fuss about hoof/pastern angle?

[fourhooves]

Why do you guys think it's so important that a horse have the hoof and pastern angle the same? Our horse used to trip a lot! Until I lowered the heels and now seeing him trip is like a blue moon. Shouldn't we be trying to keep the coffin bone closer to level? I mean you try walking aroung on your toes...It's very uncomfortable and doesn't that seem like it could make a horse lame?

[calshoer]

The important thing is the BONES inside line up.The problem is the outer hoof often is decieving, offering a view thst is not reflective of the true angles inside.
It is quite possible that the bones were not aligned when your horse had the taller heels and now are aligned better. The height of the heels of the footo, and the measured angle of the wall are sometimes NOT indicative of the true coffin angle inside. "Eyeballing"the alignement from the side is very inaccurate. Sometimes when the foot has tall heels, the coffin bone is still at a lower angle than the pastern bones. By lowering the heels and getting the frog on the ground better, you can change the angle of the *pastern bones*, moving the lower end of the second pastern bone forward in the joint, and thereby align the coffin joint better than when the heels were taller. That may be why your horse's lowered heels on your horse helped.

Another thing may be that the angle inside was "broken forward" with the tall heels, making the cofin bone too steep, creating pain somewhere in the foot, and now he is more correct.

The last possibility that comes to mind is that tall heels can cause internal foot bruises, and the horse may have been sore from that, stumbling to avoid his heels landing first. Lowering them took away the cause of the bruising and the heel pain.

So to answer your question pastern/foot *bone* alignment IS important but the way a lot of people are taught to look at it is not very accurate. If your horse is more comfortable now, the bone alignment is probably good.
Patty

[fourhooves]

Thanks for the reply, Patty. I see that you go out of your way to help people. Thanks!

[Forgewizard]

As a point of information:

I mean you try walking aroung on your toes...It's very uncomfortable and doesn't that seem like it could make a horse lame?
The horse is ALREADY designed to walk around on just his toes!

Horses are ungiligrades - animals designed to move around on the toes of their digits. Moving on the toe has changed the other bones of the feet and hands to become elongated. This makes the limb very light and the animal is supported and propelled by storage and release of energy in the long ligaments and tendons of the limb when the muscles come in to play. This makes these animals very fast but not very dextrous.

Humans are plantigrades. Which are animals that walk around on the palms and soles of their hands and feet. This means the digit bones are short, broadened and the limbs have plenty of muscles to move each digit individually or in unison. The limbs are short and heavy. Makes these animals slow - but fairly dextrous.

So to get back to the horse on its toes.
Specifically the horse is walking on the fingernail of the second digit of his hands and feet! The equivalent of our middle fingernail and second toenail!

Because we have labeled parts of the hoof with terms like "toe, heel, sole" it gives people that aren't clear on equine anatommy a skewed vision of the hoof.

Your horse's fore hoof is the fingernail of the middle finger, his knee is actually a wrist!

Your horse's hind hoof is the second toenail and his hock is actually an ankle!

So see, he is already up on his toes -better than a ballerina!

And that folks, is the anatomy lesson of the day!
Kim

[Gary Hill]

Kim the word is ungulate, meaning: having hoofs: ahoofed mammal. No where does it mean they are on their toes. Try a Dictionary? Gary

[jseyffer]

From the University of Michigan - Animal Diversity website ---
[url]http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/topics/mammal_anatomy/running_fast.html

Plantigrade species are those that place the full length of their foot, including podials and metapodials, on the ground during each stride. Humans and bears are examples.

Digitigrade species walk with most of the length of their digits, but not the soles of their feet, in contact with the ground. Dogs and cats are examples.

Unguligrade species walk on their tiptoes, often on hooves. Deer and horses are examples

And who can remember who wrote the book on the rhinogrades?

[fourhooves]

I think that a horse's knee is horse's knee. A horse's foot is a horse's foot. The fact of the matter is that horses can have high heels which gives them more of a ballerina stance. I lowered the heels on one of our horses who did not want to go any faster than a walk. After lowering the heels and getting his coffin bone more level, he showed NO resistance when asked to go faster than a walk.

[Peter Lundin]

And what is a horses knee?
PL

[Gary Hill]

Elephants, Rhino. Hippo's all have digits but their weight isn't distributed on them as much as it is the pad of the foot on these animals .So the horse can relate due to the fact it has a frog and a digital cushion. Split toed animals such as deer, cows, goats walk more on the toe of their foot than a horse does, unless it has suffered rotation then it would me landing on its toe in the Ballerina pose. The explaination on the digitigrades concerning cats whose claws retract walk full well on their pads. Lion, Tigers, house cats all bear full weight upon their pads? Never seen a 500 lb Lion tiptoe. Best, Gary

[Forgewizard]

Gary,

Sorry, my spelling was off, but the definiton is not! I'm not the only one that spelled it incorrectly either. There is an entire paper written on animal species and classifications. see this link:
http://http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=AgZSbkYvUioAhLn0QNtSv05XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE2dWw 2dTViBGNvbG8DdwRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMgRzZWMDc3IEdnRpZANGN jY1Xzc0/SIG=12hn1qa6c/EXP=1136595386/**http%3a//www.lec.edu/facstaff/dmcdermot/Vertz/Outline%25207.doc

Peter,
The horse's knee is actually his stifle.

Fourhooves, sorry dear - you are just WRONG regarding horse's knees, feet, & toes! Please review an equine anatomy book.

No bones about it!
Kim

[fourhooves]

Fourhooves, sorry dear - you are just WRONG regarding horse's knees, feet, & toes! Please review an equine anatomy book.
Kim

Kim, I was only joking! I'm not so worried about what my horse's 69th rib is compared to ours. :p As long as my horse is sound and getting a great trim I'm happy! My original question was about why people are so worried about the same exact hoof/pastern angle.

[Dave Purves]

Why do you guys think it's so important that a horse have the hoof and pastern angle the same? Our horse used to trip a lot! Until I lowered the heels and now seeing him trip is like a blue moon. Shouldn't we be trying to keep the coffin bone closer to level? I mean you try walking aroung on your toes...It's very uncomfortable and doesn't that seem like it could make a horse lame?


You must simply take into account more than just the hoof and it's contents to ensure the soundness of your horse. Take for instance a severe club foot, the coffin bone will not be ground parallel, and if you make it ground parallel your horse will be lame. However, if you do your best to align the boney column, and support the foot and limb, deal with proper breakover, your horse will stay sound. There is alot more to shoeing and trimming than just the foot.

Dave Purves CF MBS

[calshoer]

And what is a horses knee?
PL
On a front leg it is the equivalent to a wrist (carpus). Patty

[Forgewizard]

Fourhooves posted:

My original question was about why people are so worried about the same exact hoof/pastern angle.
Simply because when the bony column is in alignment the entire horse's structure can work at its optimum, efficiently.

When things are NOT aligned, then other muscles, ligaments, tendons and joints become stressed and have to endure stresses they were not designed to do.

Kim

[Peter Lundin]

On a front leg it is the equivalent to a wrist (carpus). Patty
In swedish we have a bit of confusion here. The knee is the stiffle while the carpus is called the frontknee but often people use the knee for carpus.
So on the phone I always have to ask what they mean.
PL

[Forgewizard]

Peter,

I like that definition- Front knee or hind knee! Certainly would make it clear!

Regards,Kim

[mwmyersdvm]

Lowering the heel may have simply allowed for more normal soft tissue function and had nothing to do with "levelling" the coffin bone. The diagrams on Gene's site can demonstrate this well. A longer heel tends to allow for heel movement inward while loading as the frog "searches" for the ground while a lower heel allows for good frog contact and subsequent heel expansion.

[karebear]

Hey everyone. I have questions too about the pastern. In my case, I'm looking seriously at a 3yr old mare who apparently has long pasterns and looks like she's in a lazy-boy at the front end more so than the back. Although her back hooves do the same. My dilema is that I have horse people telling me to walk away from her because this problem will only get worse as she gets older and may become unsound to ride. They say long pasterns that slope back are bad conformation and she's therefore putting pressure points where they shouldn't be and will eventually be in pain and will therefore come up lame. She seems to be okay otherwise, except her rear left leg appears to "twist" a bit when jogging (more noticable when moving quicker). The twist appears outward only when she puts her leg down and then seems to "come back in" when she lifts again. This is only on one leg.

My problem is I've had her vetchecked yesterday. The vet says she's sound right now and appears to be healthy. The twist may be nothing to worry about to him. The pasterns were noticed by the vet, but he's suggesting giving her a bit more of a heel and it might help her out, but there's no guarantee there either. Shoes might help, but I don't really want shoes on my horse. I prefer barefoot. Her breed is probably quarterhorse cross. She's definitely not a purebred. We've had suggestions maybe she's been crossed with hackney's and therefore has the long pasterns. Given the two different breeds, are her pasterns going to be a problem either way since she's crossbred?

My question is, for the long term, could anyone tell me if I'd be tying up a lot of money just in farrier bills, etc. for this horse should I buy her? I have to make up my mind TODAY, so some help and input would be beneficial at this point. I don't have much experience with horses and I wonder whether she should go to a home that's got the experience with problems like this. I don't want to pour a bunch of money into a horse that's got feet problems, especially when the price is 2000.

Her temperment is great for a young horse and she's very smart. I love her colouring, but I'm afraid to get too attached in case it's going to be too much for me.

Can anyone help?? :confused:

[Ronald Aalders]

Can anyone help?? :confused:

Yes, easy! If you worry about future problems with your horse leading to high bills, don't buy a horse.

Guaranteed no bills from vets, shoers and the like.

And the good part about it no food to buy either!



Ronald Aalders

[Greg Thomas]

My dilema is that I have horse people telling me to walk away from her because this problem will only get worse as she gets older and may become unsound to ride.They say long pasterns that slope back are bad conformation and she's therefore putting pressure points where they shouldn't be and will eventually be in pain and will therefore come up lame.

And you want people that you don't know and have never seen the horse to recommend that you buy it-????
[/COLOR]

She seems to be okay otherwise, except her rear left leg appears to "twist" a bit when jogging (more noticable when moving quicker). The twist appears outward only when she puts her leg down and then seems to "come back in" when she lifts again. This is only on one leg.


My vets would not call it 100% sound(or I would find another vet). Those "except"s are usually significant,[/COLOR]

Her breed is probably quarterhorse cross. She's definitely not a purebred. We've had suggestions maybe she's been crossed with hackney's and therefore has the long pasterns. Given the two different breeds, are her pasterns going to be a problem either way since she's crossbred?

You are not "given" two different breeds-you are taking a wild a$$ed guess. What would a Hackney/Quarter horse cross be used for?
[/COLOR]
My question is, for the long term, could anyone tell me if I'd be tying up a lot of money just in farrier bills, etc. for this horse should I buy her?

You will tie up alot of money on a sound, true to type , registered horse. Horses are expensive to keep. A screwed up horse is even more expensive.
[/COLOR]
I have to make up my mind TODAY, so some help and input would be beneficial at this point. I don't have much experience with horses and I wonder whether she should go to a home that's got the experience with problems like this. I don't want to pour a bunch of money into a horse that's got feet problems, especially when the price is 2000.

Your inexperience is evident if you are willing to pay $2000 for a horse with unknown breeding and evident confirmation and gait problems. And for letting someone pressure you into making a quick decision. Sounds like a $50 or free horse to me. Actually from your description and my perception I wouldn't take it if they gave me $2000 and I had to keep it.[/COLOR]

Her temperment is great for a young horse and she's very smart.

That is subject to change with an inexperienced owner/handler.
[/COLOR]
I love her colouring, but I'm afraid to get too attached in case it's going to be too much for me.

You are buying a horse- not a couch.

Can anyone help?? :confused:

Probably not.[/COLOR]

Greg

[wwhite1973]

Karebear,
I don't know where you live but here in Missouri a lot of sound, registered horses are having trouble bringing that kind of money. I just bought a sound, quarter type, 9 year old grade mare for $300. The type of horse you are describing would have brought considerably less.
Wayne

[hoofnhound]

Same here in MI....a horse fitting that description would be worth realistically about $300-$500.
Keep looking.