how do I get more sole???(not soul)...

[runtolive]

Sorry, I had to make that clear as per some of the humour I have read on this forum....lol!! :D My horse is barefoot right now and I have had xrays done to see where he is at. The vet said he has thin sole. What can I do to grow more sole faster..feed, exercise etc...If he doesnt have enough by march I will put shoes on for 1 set then see where he is at....

[Dave Purves]

The best thing I've seen as yet to produce good sole depth is to apply shoes, with frog, bar and sole support. I prefer to use vettec hoofpak. I realize you are wanting to keep your horse barefoot, but I've seen great results fast with one or two applications of the hoofpak filled to the ground surface of the shoe, this way, the frog, bars and sole are more weight bearing.

good luck
Dave

[caballus]

Well, on a barefoot horse that is trimmed properly according to the individual hoof's requirements for good functioning, the sole is going to grow at a rate of about 1/8th inch a month. This can be either increased or reduced according to the movement on firm, hard ground that the horse gets. More movement on good, correctly trimmed hooves where the frogs are allowed to have active contact and the hoof can expand and contract naturally, will increase the blood circulation to the hooves. Increased blood circulation means more oxygen and nutrients getting to the lower limbs and hooves which, in turn, will increase solid, healthy growth of new horn. The new growth may not be plainly evident at first because the sole, as it grows, is compacted as the horse steps down. Again, teh more movement the horse gets, the better. Even beyond the trim and nutrition, movement is the primary source of maintaining healthy hooves. Of course, what goes in, grows out, as well, so nutrition plays an important role, as well. The horse's gut is designed to thrive on forage. All kinds of forage; not just hay. In fact, there are glyconutrients and phytonutrients that are necessary for optimal health and cell growth and regeneration that are only available from vine-ripened fruits and veggies. Organic, if possible. I give salads on a regular basis to the horses made up of green leafy veggies, root crops, cole crops, squash, melons, pumpkin seeds, nuts and other seeds ie. flax, black oil sunflower, etc. No potatoes or tomatoe as both are members of the Nightshade family and can cause adverse reactions to sensitive horses. The horses also have plenty of various trees in the woods to chew on the bark and/or the limbs and leaves. Along with this, the horses get free choice grass hay; sometimes grass/legume with a good, organic vitamin/mineral source (ABC Plus) and fresh water available to drink (and water to stand in or mud which is inevitable in New England lately!) I am fortunate to have very rocky paddocks mixed, in parts, with soft, sand and grass footing. But, mostly embedded rocks much like cobblestone. I have a 2 1/2 yo. filly who has only needed to have her hooves trimmed twice in her lifetime. Her hooves are marvels! But, again, I have to stress that movement is your biggest ally. Give your horse some time. I've found with good husbandry and hoofcare the 4th month of "rehab" for a horse seems to be the "golden month" if there has been slow recovery prior. Grab some boots for your horse and ride - one good and fun way to get some miles on your guy! Epics and Old Macs are both good choices.

--Gwen

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

caballus in gray, deletia

Well, on a barefoot horse that is trimmed properly according to the individual hoof's requirements for good functioning, the sole is going to grow at a rate of about 1/8th inch a month. This can be either increased or reduced according to the movement on firm, hard ground that the horse gets. More movement on good, correctly trimmed hooves where the frogs are allowed to have active contact and the hoof can expand and contract naturally, will increase the blood circulation to the hooves...

Please be kind enough to cite any peer reviewed study, published in any scientific journal, that supports your contention. Although the claim has been repeated ad nauseam by the Barefoot Uber Alles batallions of intellectuals, I've been unable to find any scientific evidence that supports the claim that a properly applied shoe inhibits blood circulation through the foot.

Anyone can find all manner of nonsensical claims emanating from the BUA camp that blame metal shoes for everything from Kennedy's assassination to the rise in gas prices, but their claims are apparently based on the premise that wishful thinking will somehow become axiomatic if only enough of the faithful repeat the mantra.

Credible citations please: Observations, testimonials of the faithful, press releases, and other opinion pieces examplifying the junk science that permeates the horse world will merely engender derision.

[caballus]

Please be kind enough to cite any peer reviewed study, published in any scientific journal, that supports your contention. Although the claim has been repeated ad nauseam by the Barefoot Uber Alles batallions of intellectuals, I've been unable to find any scientific evidence that supports the claim that a properly applied shoe inhibits blood circulation through the foot.

Hmmmm. Don't believe I said anything about shoes in my post, Tom. ???

--Gwen

[Phil Armitage]

Nope you did not mention steel shoe, however you did say this...............

"More movement on good, correctly trimmed hooves where the frogs are allowed to have active contact and the hoof can expand and contract naturally, will increase the blood circulation to the hooves... "

So what would prevent this? I also assumed you meant shoes.............

[caballus]

Um, no ... I meant just what I said. I DELIBERATELY did NOT mention shoes. I wrote exactly what I wanted to say; nothing more, nothing less. What would prevent this? (proper functioning of the hooves)? -- improper trim/care of the hooves leaving hooves that are imbalanced, unlevel and without the capability of full expansion of the hoof and full frog functioning. Assume what you will.

--Gwen

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

caballus in gray, my old stuff in brown

Please be kind enough to cite any peer reviewed study, published in any scientific journal, that supports your contention. Although the claim has been repeated ad nauseam by the Barefoot Uber Alles batallions of intellectuals, I've been unable to find any scientific evidence that supports the claim that a properly applied shoe inhibits blood circulation through the foot.


Hmmmm. Don't believe I said anything about shoes in my post, Tom. ???

No ma'am, your missive did not mention shoes, per se; so, just for the record: Do you believe that properly applied metal shoes inhibit blood circulation through the foot?

[caballus]

I would have to say that it depends on the shoe, the application, the shoer the hoof and the situation at hand.

--Gwen

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

caballus in gray, my old stuff in brown

No ma'am, your missive did not mention shoes, per se; so, just for the record: Do you believe that properly applied metal shoes inhibit blood circulation through the foot?

I would have to say that it depends on the shoe, the application, the shoer the hoof and the situation at hand.

The scenario presumes all aspects of correct and proper application, including choice of shoe, trim, fit, placement, nailing, clinching, and finish. To reiterate: Do you believe metal shoes restrict, redirect, slow, or otherwise inhibit blood circulation through the hoof?

[Jeanie Connors]

Hmmm, I didn't think this thread was about shoes; I thought it was about sole depth/thickness??

From my, admittedly, limited experience compared to many others here, the first thing you need to be sure of is that your farrier is not routinely trimming the sole. The sole itself will build as the hoof develops concavity, but only if allowed to do so ;). The two go together: sole thickness and concavity :) . Be sure your horse's hooves are trimmed so as to leave the live sole alone (there is a big difference in s****ing away dead sole, and leaving live sole), and the hoof will build what it needs.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Jeanie Connors in gray

Hmmm, I didn't think this thread was about shoes; I thought it was about sole depth/thickness??

The thread deviated slightly when it segued off into the use of appliances in order to grow/maintain sole. Please see Dave Purves December 15 post. :)

[caballus]

the original question was
What can I do to grow more sole faster..feed, exercise etc...If he doesnt have enough by march I will put shoes on for 1 set then see where he is at....
and I believe the OP has a couple of different answers from which to decide. The deviation came along, Tom, when you posted directly to my reply with a tangent about barefooters, as usual. Dave, myself and Jeannie have all given answers in reply to the original question.

--Gwen

[calshoer]

Well, on a barefoot horse that is trimmed properly according to the individual hoof's requirements for good functioning, the sole is going to grow at a rate of about 1/8th inch a month.
It may grow, but ithe LIVE sole horn tubule length (thickness) is determined by factors such as genetics, the length of the papillae that generate the individual tubules.That is why the sole callous live horn tubules are longer than the tubules of the rest of the sole.
Sure you may be able to build up some compacted DEAD layer, IF the environment allows for that, but if the environment does not allow those dead layers to to remain, this horse will not be able to generate a thick enough protective layer to be barefoot. he will ned SHOES.

I know horses who were properly trimmed and bareofoot on 35 acres of dry ground for two years or more, and never got enough sole to be sound without boots.

Sole thickness is a lot genetic. If he doesn't have it, he probably never will.
And if the horse is forced to remaion barefoot with thin soles,oif he is in hard or rocky ground he is damaging the edge of the coffin bone.
Gwen I bet you don't have to many "after" Xrays of edges of the coffin bones of the the long term thin soled barefoot horses to evaluate bone condition, do you?
I have seen some thin soled horses who developed serious pedal osteitis after the "barefoot" approach.

I find that thin soled horses do benefiot from increased sole *replication* when they are shod in plastic shoes and the whole center of the shoe filled with Equipack. It seems to massage the sole corium and and stimulate the growth rate, but the LIVE horn tubules never get longer than they can genetically.
Patty

[runtolive]

Thanks everyone for your replies. My old farrier used to take alot of sole off when trimming to put shoes on. He also left the heels quite high which in turn rotated the coffin bone to the point where he was stabbing the ground with his toes, at this point I took his shoes off. He was dead lame on grass. I could not fathom putting shoes on this lame of horse so I started reading alot of books and websites on the barefoot method, and from there I called a lady that follows the methods that made sense, she doesnt touch the live sole. Now that I have a general understanding of barefoot methods, I have started reading books on shoeing and in general hoof mechanics and balance. I have learned alot. That was in August. Now he is sound, except on gravel. I ride with hoof boots and am going to leave him barefoot until the spring as he has little feet that we are slowly getting bigger. I took him to a vet and had him xrayed just so I knew what I was dealing with and she said that the coffin bone is just about back in line and to keep lowering the heels according to what the sole told us (which is what we are doing), she said the only other problem was the thickness of the sole and to see how he does until march and maybe put shoes on him for a while then to get the sole thicker, then reassess. I may have to shoe him, but she didnt think so...I guess time will tell.

I will be paying strict attention to diet and movement to get optimum hoof growth in the winter....any other ideas for sole thickness?

[caballus]

Sure you may be able to build up some compacted DEAD layer, IF the environment allows for that, but if the environment does not allow those dead layers to to remain, this horse will not be able to generate a thick enough protective layer to be barefoot. he will ned SHOES.

And what kind of environment does not allow for the building up of good, strong protective sole or allow the dead layers to remain?

I know horses who were properly trimmed and bareofoot on 35 acres of dry ground for two years or more, and never got enough sole to be sound without boots.

I find that hard to believe, actually. Horses kept out on 35 acres of dry ground never got enough sole to be sound without boots? What were the other mitagating factors?

Sole thickness is a lot genetic. If he doesn't have it, he probably never will. I disagree. Yes, the way the hoof is shaped and formed by genetics has alot to do with it however, it is mostly shape and affected by the environment. When a foal is born, every tubule is the same length until that foal gets up and starts to move whereupon the hooves begin to adapt and change according to the ground and movement. That's just common knowledge and sense.

Gwen I bet you don't have to many "after" Xrays of edges of the coffin bones of the the long term thin soled barefoot horses to evaluate bone condition, do you?

Actually, Patty I've seen more xrays of damages done to coffin bones of hooves that have been shod long term than anything. Haven't had need to xray barefooters except to confirm soundness.

I have seen some thin soled horses who developed serious pedal osteitis after the "barefoot" approach.

And I've seen a few horses with pedal osteitis who have had their shoes removed, hooves trimmed up properly after years of imbalances and have become sound again - back to work on hard, rocky trails in competitive rides.


I find that thin soled horses do benefiot from increased sole *replication* when they are shod in plastic shoes and the whole center of the shoe filled with Equipack. It seems to massage the sole corium and and stimulate the growth rate, but the LIVE horn tubules never get longer than they can genetically.

And I find that thin soled horses benefit from being cared for with correct balance, levelness and care for the hooves, barefoot. The ground and movement does a wonderful job of massaging the sole corium and stimulate the growth rate of the hooves while the live sole grows and then callouses up forming a nice, concave hoof with great protection for the coffin bone inside the thick walled, thick soled hoof capsule. if the hooves need some artificial protection while growing sole then hoof boots do a nice job while the horse is out being ridden.

To each his own.

--Gwen

[calshoer]

And what kind of environment does not allow for the building up of good, strong protective sole or allow the dead layers to remain?
Uhhh lets eee. Maybe sharp Colorado ROCKS? Or abrasive Arizona desert? I find that hard to believe, actually. Horses kept out on 35 acres of dry ground never got enough sole to be sound without boots? What were the other mitagating factors?
Genetics. Poor footed mommy maybe? Palomino?
I disagree. Yes, the way the hoof is shaped and formed by genetics has alot to do with it however, it is mostly shape and affected by the environment. When a foal is born, every tubule is the same length until that foal gets up and starts to move whereupon the hooves begin to adapt and change according to the ground and movement. That's just common knowledge and sense. Bull****. No one knows that they can all develop a thick enough sole . Sure the foot can get to its genetic POTENTIAL with proper environment, but I have known FAR too many horses from huge breeding farms where all were raised from birth in the exact same environment, but had different bloodlines some ended up with with terrific feet some crud. And consistantly the crud ones had one or more cruddy footed parents. Actually, Patty I've seen more xrays of damages done to coffin bones of hooves that have been shod long term than anything. Haven't had need to xray barefooters except to confirm soundness.How many of them had damaged coffin bones BEFORE the shoeing? Do you haved their long term previous veterinary records? , (bet you dont) )And how many were even *correctly* shod. (few to none )
As to your not needing to X-ray perhaps you SHOULD.
I remember at one case from the Strasser sites where the coffin bones WERE clearly damaged on the radiographs after a time in the Strasser trim. Fine before, clear undisputable pedal osteitis after. Proof is in the XRays.Even though you do not do the Strasser trim, that horse suffered because it damaged its coffin bones due to the misguided attempt to thicken and toughen its soles barefoot.

Maybe you should be willing to test out your coffin bone angles, joint alignment ,and bone condition over the long term yourself ,on your clients , with follow up Xrays. Its the professional thing to do to PROVE you are doing the right thing.
As well I have seen your video 'proof' in your site that these horses are "sounder"...yeah right...in soft grass or in boots. Not truly barefoot. Why only in soft environments or in boots???
Maybe they don't have enough SOLE?

Patty

[caballus]

Patty, I merely answered the OP question to the best of my ability. Once again, you've chosen to turn it to the one-way answers that *you* have. I work with clients and their vets who keep the long term records. Most of my work is now verifiable from veterinarian records because that is mostly what I do now. I am called in mostly on veterinarian suggestion to pull shoes as "nothing else seems to be working" type deal. I do little "maintenance" trimming at this time. I'm called in to work on the unsound horse; once the horse is taken through the initial healing period of time and is "verifiably sound" then another hoof care person takes over for the maintenance. So take it or leave it; I don't really care what you do one way or the other. I merely answered a question.

As for sharp rocks, etc. Well, here in New England we have sharp rocks, too. Colorado does not hold first place for rocks. New England is a very challenging area of the country to maintain healthy, sound hooves. But, again, I don't really care what you think or do one way or the other about it. It is what it is.

If those early videos add a bit of encouragment for someone who is going through hell and back with his or her horse then great - that's why they're there. To offer some hope to those who feel less than hopeful, shall we say. And that's also why I choose to contend with the 'strife' here on this board. To be able to offer some sort of alternative hope for those who are seeking answers to help get their horses back into soundness and health. I;m not here to prove to you, or anyone else, anything. It's all too clear that there are some who are simply unable to consider different viewpoints or thoughts. But that's OK. If what's working for you, works, then great. If what's working for me, works, then great. Let's leave it at that instead of bickering and argueing leaving the OP in the dust and no learning or helpful information is put forth at all.

Rocks, desert, mountains, grass, sand, sal*t*water-- I believe that horses' hooves adapt to their surroundings and changes in environment. Genetics or no genetics. So, let's turn this around and say that in order to believe the statement that horses kept on 35 acres, with full run of the acreage I'm to assume?, HAVE to wear shoes or boots to be sound is hard for me to believe and perhaps you could show us some "proof" of that? Xrays from these horses? Owners' statements? Veterinary comments? Photos of the hooves? It's all well and good that you ask from me and others; where are your proofs? I have yet to see any hooves from you that show start to finish sequence. Do you ever take photo records? Have any cases that you can post for us all to view? I'd be interested in seeing the start to finish work. You're so quick to demand "proof" from others, where's yours?

One more comment. You mentioned horses from breeding farms. All born on the farm; all with issues. Just for the record, the first months of a foal's life is CRUCIAL to hoof development. If a horse is raised on soft, green, lush pastures, running around on soft ground during the early months, the horse is going to end up with life-long issues with its hooves as the hooves, being directly affected by their environment, are not able to develop properly on soft, green grassy terrain. Environment overrules the genetics in these cases. That's not bull****e at all.

--Gwen

[Welsh lass]

I use something called sole mates and hand walk with these in boots or taped on with duck tape. They do a fantastic job at stimulating the sole without trauma. We have seen case after case of thin soles helped with this product. It is styrofoam with a memory.

[calshoer]

I merely answered a question.
No you didnt. You challended my statement that a horse went two years barefoot with all the recommnded barefoot protocol and never developed enough sole to be sound,that there Must be somethign else wrong..and there is. He, like a lot of other domestic horses, just can't do it.
And since I have SEEN your examples on your own website of horses who are so much "better" with your barefoot protocol (than they were with ****** shoeing), I challenge that, because they sure don't look too great to me. Those horses may be some better than they were with improper shoeing, but they could be even better than THAT with *correct* shoeing.
It's all too clear that there are some who are simply unable to consider different viewpoints or thoughts. But that's OKLook in the mirror when you say that.
I'm not unable to consider alternative ideas, I am open to alternative ideas that is why Ichangd my entire shoeing protocols ten years ago. I could have gotten stuck with what iwas taught a quarter century ago but I changed. And I do a LOT of barefoot just not when it is unappropriate for that horse. The barefoters on the other hand who think that barefoot is the ONLY or BEST way to do things are the ones who are not open to alternatives.
You and a few other barefooters who are fanatics about 'no shoes' have very few years in the professional hoofcare arena and are the ones who are not open to other ideas.

There ARE shoeing protocols that HEAL and assist a foot in becoming helathier. And which can help a foot develop and get ready for barefoot FASTER than if you just went barefoot all at once. But apparently you havent been open enough to see it.
So, let's turn this around and say that in order to believe the statement that horses kept on 35 acres, with full run of the acreage I'm to assume?, HAVE to wear shoes or boots to be sound is hard for me to believe and perhaps you could show us some "proof" of that? Xrays from these horses? Owners' statements? Veterinary comments? Photos of the hooves? It's all well and good that you ask from me and others; where are your proofs?
So I am a liar when I say the horse lives on that acreage? Geesh. I had all of the above when I went to do this horse the first time, (except vet comments) . Here is a photo of him that I posted here sometime in the past . Yes I saw the Xrays that were taken after two years of barefoot ,soles only a few mm thick.( 3 or 4 if I recall) , He had full run of the acreage, (hard pack sandy loam mostly ) regular trims (most not by me but decent conservative trims by a good farrier ) . She got sick and tired of this horse never being sound enough to do anything without boots. Never had a lick of sole touched by the knife or rasp. He has very little digital cushion and suffered negative plane P3's for all that barefoot time. Now in NB shoes with frog support wedge pads he is fine. Sound. HAPPY. Willing to work again. Has been for the last two years. Picture is the first time I saw him, due for a trim (in this case, shoes) BTW feet with that distinctive little narrow sole callous which is bvery steep right behind it are usually very thin soled. I did have had an Xray but the owner has it now.

This is not the only horse I have known who cannot develop adequate sole even with 24-7 turn out barefoot..There have been plenty.
I have brought all this up before. But again I will rehash it. Besides the scores of bad footed clients horses, I had two TB weanlings, different genetics. I rasied one from birth to eight months on only a quarter acre, bought the other at six monhs old from a huge 600 mare TB farm where he had run out all his life. Put them together at 8 months old on 8 dry hard pan acres (the biggest place I could rent for them in the SF Bay area). Exact same feed,exact same everything.
Two years later the one I bought still had the thinnest soles imaginable. Flat feet thin walls. He was sore footed most of the time and I had to shoe him just to lightly start him under saddle at two in a sand arena. The other one remained barefoot, totally sound, ridden harder. I later fwas told that most of the foals from the particular sire of the the bad footed one tended to have very bad feet. It is GENEICS. Best chance to develop better sole, the genetics was the limiting factor.

If the poor footed one could not develop sole after a two years running out 24-7 on that hardpan clay, he never was going to. All the other TB foals I raised had terrific feet, many ramain barefoot today with their owners (all are in the Monterey bay area, lots of good hard pack sandy loam) ,working a few cattle ,doing a little hunter and dressage and so on.
So barefoot IS appropriate for those particular animals. Their sire and dam(both of whom I owned) had great feet barefoot.
I AM open to barefoot and encourage it WHEN apppriate,You on the other hand are not open to anything but barefoot, so who is closed minded? You mentioned horses from breeding farms. All born on the farm; all with issues. NOOOOOOO.....learn to read better. All born on the farm, SOME with issues. Same farm same management in all of them but SOME develop issues. You missed the whole point. Huge farms who turn out and feed all horses the same make great study controls.
Patty

[caballus]

And since I have SEEN your examples on your own website of horses who are so much "better" with your barefoot protocol (than they were with ****** shoeing), I challenge that, because they sure don't look too great to me.

Please direct me to those hooves. As far as I know the horses have no problems with their recovered and rehabbed hooves. ???


Those horses may be some better than they were with improper shoeing, but they could be even better than THAT with *correct* shoeing.

Once again, the horse I am called in to see are those who were not doing well in shoes for whatever reason. Owners got fed up; vets got fed up; vets suggested barefoot protocals.

Look in the mirror when you say that.

All I have to go on is experience and my solid beliefs. You believe that NB shoeing will cure-all; I believe that horse's have innate natural abilities to become healthy naturally, as designed, with the ****proper environment, feed & nutrition and husbandry.*** and I've seen it over and over again. So, we disagree. So what? Do you take this personally?

And I do a LOT of barefoot just not when it is unappropriate for that horse.

I dont' hesitate to tell an owner that IF the barefoot protocol doesn't work, its' easy enough to put shoes back on. But at least I give them an alternative and give them a choice.

You and a few other barefooters who are fanatics about 'no shoes' have very few years in the professional hoofcare arena and are the ones who are not open to other ideas.

Ok, again, few years is a relative term, I guess. Trimming since the 1980's and professionally since 1997 or 1998 is all relative ... whatever. Doesn't make any difference cause if it works, it works. I have enough calls to keep me more than busy. So I must be doing *something* right. Word of mouth is great advertising. And as I have said numerous times, the horses don't lie. But again, whatever, Patty. Keep on spouting off the experience in years, yadi, yadi, yadi. Whatever. It's all white noise at this point.


So I am a liar when I say the horse lives on that acreage? Geesh. I had all of the above when I went to do this horse the first time, (except vet comments) . Here is a photo of him that I posted here sometime in the past .

You call me a liar all the time with your comments but so what? ... take it from there, Patty. I'm not calling anyone names. I merely debate a topic. As for your photos ... Well, I see contracted heels. I see a hoof shape that should be a bit wider at the 2/3rds point which means the toes could come back just a tad to round the hoof. The contracted heel is the main point that is telling me that the hoof still isn't "right". Wonderful that the horse has good sole callous. I like to see a callous that's about 1" thick or more. This example does not fit those parameters so I'd say that it has some more callousing to do. But, call it what you will. I see contracted heels and would work towards correcting them. Contracted heels can cause pain and lameness and therefore I would not call this hoof "recovered". From the split in the heel bulbs I would not expect this horse to be able to be sound on gravel or stones or rocks and it would be no surprise to me if it weren't. Not until the heels spread a bit, the frog widens and solidifies a bit more, the entire hoof widen and the collateral groove becomes nothing more than an indent in the frog. I would also expect that a front hoof be more round (wider) and have a bit more concavity grown in THEN I might call this a healthy hoof. But again, call it what you will. I don't really care.

It is GENEICS. Best chance to develop better sole, the genetics was the limiting factor.

Genetics can be , excuse me, ***ARE***, as I stated previously, altered by environment and care. So ???

I'm not going to waste my time going through any more of this conversation with you. We've had previous altercations through disagreements on care, etc. and ya know what? It really does nothing to help the OP.

--Gwen

[calshoer]

Gwen asked for direction to the pictures in question..Please direct me to those hooves. As far as I know the horses have no problems with their recovered and rehabbed hooves. ???l'll make it easier and just post them here since She had them in public view on her own website. The case is Cammie, before and after. YES I know she was laminitic, but if you think that foot is REHABBED, the men in the white coats should be on their way. It looks far more rotated after than before. Beautiful job of 'fixing' it.

[Cyber Farrier]

<snip>

Genetics can be , excuse me, ***ARE***, as I stated previously, altered by environment and care. So ???
--Gwen
I can't hold my tongue any longer. I'm sorry. I really do try to stay out of these things.

Gwen, your knowledge of genetics is, apparently, zilch. Yes, genetics can be altered by environment, but only over generations. It's called selective breeding, or in nature, natural evolution (survival of the fittest). To state that you can alter any organism's genetic makeup, during the lifespan of that organism (assuming you're not utilizing gentic engineering, which hasn't become commonplace to my knowledge), is proposterous. Statements like that leave you with no credibility at all.

Now I'll get off my little soapbox suggest an acid test for you, Gwen. Patty says she has access to horses which are thin soled, will always be thin soled, and under no cir***stances will their soles become thicker, allowing them to be used (for anything other than pasture ornaments or possibly riding on soft ground) without shoes. You claim that properly trimmed and taken care of correctly, you can thicken the soles, make them hardier somehow, and then these horses will be able to be used on a regular basis, barefoot, on virtually any surface without going lame.

I challenge you to take one or more horses, provided to you by Patty or anyone else who can provide them, and under your care, make them into the barefoot wonders you claim to be able to produce. No more telling us how it can or should be done. Do it. Prove it.

And since you also claim to be able to "cure" horses will severe navicular syndrome, as well as foundered horses, and bring them back to performance levels, I'm sure Patty and others can provide a few of them as well.

If you can work your wonders, then mea culpa, I'll be first in line to eat crow. But I'm tired of hearing that it can be done, if only done "right." Time for you to show us. Are you up to it?

Patty, Rick, others... what do you think? Can you provide a few horses so Gwen can work her barefoot magic, and put us all to shame?

Baron

[Rick Burten]

I'm still trying to figure out what ***ARE*** is. :confused:

I too am somewhat befuddled by the concept that the genetics of an organism can be altered by the physical environment and care. Excepting gene mutation for whatever reason(s), I don't think it is possible. Reaching a genetic potential, as has already been offered/stated, is quite possible although sometimes improbable.

Were it possible that environment and care could alter the genetic makeup of any given horse or group of horses, then I am quite sure that the industry would have already embraced that concept to further tailor(as opposed to his excellency Baron Tayler who has already proven that he can in fact manipulate the genetic make up of his domain through the use of environment and
care :D )the designer horses they already try to manipulate genetically.

[calshoer]

As for your photos ... Well, I see contracted heels. I see a hoof shape that should be a bit wider at the 2/3rds point which means the toes could come back just a tad to round the hoof. The contracted heel is the main point that is telling me that the hoof still isn't "right". Wonderful that the horse has good sole callous. I like to see a callous that's about 1" thick or more. This example does not fit those parameters so I'd say that it has some more callousing to do.Again you missed the entire point. You must not be able to read well because I SAID that horse had already had TWO YEARS barefoot to try and improve the feet ,and he COULD NOT DO IT. The photos shoeing all the problems you point out are at the end of TWO YEARS of trying barefoot ! That was the best he could manage.
How many more years should she have allowed him to remain lame to try to get the feet better? Five, six? Maybe forever? Get over it... you can't fix everything barefoot.
And BTW I watched the video clips on your site again and saw head bobs and general 'shortness' of stride in most of them ..hardly sound, even in that soft ground. I don't know what YOU consider truly sound but I sure didn't see it.
Patty

[Rick Burten]

Once again, the horse I am called in to see are those who were not doing well in shoes for whatever reason. Owners got fed up; vets got fed up; vets suggested barefoot protocals.
Just curious, why are you called rather than the attending farrier? Do the vets and/or owners believe that the farrier is incapable of providing a correct barefoot trim, or what?

[caballus]

l'll make it easier and just post them here since She had them in public view on her own website. The case is Cammie, before and after. YES I know she was laminitic, but if you think that foot is REHABBED, the men in the white coats should be on their way. It looks far more rotated after than before. Beautiful job of 'fixing' it.

Um, that was not the "fix" job, Patty. That was just the beginning of rehab for that girl. That little horse not only rotated but perforated both fronts. That was in Sept. Here is in April following:

http://www.barefoottrim.com/PATHOLOGIES/april_1.jpg

And here:

http://www.barefoottrim.com/PATHOLOGIES/april_2.jpg

and if you'd like I'll gladly post photos of all the same hoof today.

There were some severe mitigating factors in that little horse's rehab that need to fit in with the whole picture, Patty. Can't just take one little piece and make a judgement call on that. The care from the responsible caretakers was not being given in the beginning nor after the horse was moved to the safe barn. It was a very unusual case which, thankfully, had a decent outcome. The mare was finally adopted by someone in Dec. of the same year who brought her where she is looked after properly. She is out 24/7 with her own shelter on ground that varies from deep mud to grass to sand to rocks. She has an appropriate diet for her conditions (she's Cushings) and gets played with regularly and ridden once in awhile by a light rider. She's also well into her 20's and has permanent issues with her pelvis, back and knees. She has arthritis in her knees, hips and hocks. She's a clear result of being used as a utility horse for years. Its rather sad. But with all her issues her hooves are doing the best. They are no longer the primary physical concern. So, there's some more background to the horse who stands on those hooves that you posted, Patty.

As for the video "clips" and *most of them* ... how many did you see, Patty? I only have a couple. The little chestnut mare on the front lawn was unable to walk just a few months prior. And she had HAD shoes on for years. All that was "fixed" for her was keeping her hooves on the bottom of her legs long enough for her to keep pumping babies out for 7 or 9 years. Now she has a bit more pleasant existance. It's all vet. certified and noted. Vet's idea to go barefoot with her, too. Not the owner's; not mine; I did not tie up the owner and force her into that decision. I merely was the person who was called.

As for "me" "fixing" horses, Baron ... you and the others are missing the point, as Patty likes to say. You also seem to read only the parts that you want to read just like taking photos that you want to see. That's fine. The point IS that anyone can "fix" these horses cause its not us that are fixing them. If you think that *we* fix them, you are all wrong. We merely provide the means for the hooves to repair themselves. We merely provide the correct circ*umstances and the horse, with all its incredible senses for survival, repairs itself. Doesn't have to be me or joe-schmo or whomever ... its the horse that repairs its own hooves when *given the opportunities to do so*. It all has to do with the trim for balance and levelness according to the INDIVIDUAL HOOF (and I've said over and over ... shod or not) and movement. That's the point! Giving the hooves a correct trim and allowing for the correct cir***stances for rehab, means the hooves heal themselves, inside-out. Why don't you guys try it out? Instead of using therap*eutic shoes on a few horses, get the horses trimmed up properly, turn them out 24/7 on hard firm ground, ensure a correct diet, mental stimulation and plenty of "horseplay" (movement) and watch how nature does HER thing? And, feel free to truck in a couple of horses every month here for 4 - 8 months. I don't mind. Then we can watch the rehab together. How nice.

But again, whatever. The OP asked for ideas. She got some and then all the extras that usually go on here. Keep on shooting those who have differing opinions. You tell me barefooted horses can't go sound. I say they can. That's all. I show progressive steps in the process with the little mare that Patty pointed out. I will take photos, today, of that hoof to show you the "final" result, although, of course,the results are never final, are they? Cause they keep on changing according to the environment ... so every trim is different; every full hoof growth cycle might be different from the last; etc.

Rick ... I've actually asked that and the answer has been that I'm called in basically as last resort. For the most part the horses I see HAVE been tended regularly by a farrier and under vet's care but nothing is working and the owners have lost trust or faith in the farrier's ability to help. So, last resort, "Let's pull the shoes and see what happens." So then the owners want someone who does nothing but barefoot care. They call me, or another barefoot care person ... whomever. It's usually a last resort thing.

--Gwen

[Rick Burten]

There were some severe mitigating factors in that little horse's rehab that need to fit in with the whole picture, Patty. Can't just take one little piece and make a judgement call on that.

While you might not, this is precisely what many members of the BUA, and in particular, the gurus of the BUA do when trying to show the "horrors of shoeing a horse".


Rick ... I've actually asked that and the answer has been that I'm called in basically as last resort. For the most part the horses I see HAVE been tended regularly by a farrier and under vet's care but nothing is working and the owners have lost trust or faith in the farrier's ability to help. So, last resort, "Let's pull the shoes and see what happens." So then the owners want someone who does nothing but barefoot care. They call me, or another barefoot care person ... whomever. It's usually a last resort thing.


Gwen,

have those individuals given the farrier a chance to take the horse barefoot? Have they been given the additional protocols that should be adjunctively implemented? Or, because they lost trust or faith in the farrier's ability regarding remediation via shoeing protocols(usually through no fault of the farrier, especially when s/he is working at the direction of an attending veterinarian), immediately assume that the farrier is incapable of correctly trimming the horse for barefoot, and that only some "barefoot only specialist" can provide the horse with what it needs? And, who puts those foolish notions in the owner's head?

[runtolive]

***WHAT HAPPENED TO MY POST!!!!!!!***********

I thought this forum was to help people that are having problems and needing advice from professionals? Everytime I see a post on here whether is has the "awful" word barefoot in it or not, somebody has to pick a heated discussion on nothing that has to do with the post!!!!aaaarrrrgggg.

I do believe that everyone posting on here understands that these "suggestions" to help fix the problem are "opinions" that have probably worked for that person for the problem posted. It is up to the person that posted to try the ideas.

If I said green cars were better obviously someone else is going to like red, it is human nature to have different opinions...

******please just post your suggestions and let the person that posted it pick what they want to try to help***********

I hate reading two pages of bull*** bickering to try and get answers to my post!!!!!! :confused: :(

[calshoer]

Runtolive,
Sorry that the original questions do get sidelined here a lot of times. Partly that is because this IS primarily a farrier oriented site, and when a barefooter (one in particular) chooses to jump in on just about every shoeing suggestion and quickly say that barefoot is best, they deservedly get slammed.
Farriers are not allowed to do that in the barefoot sites. They get banned from there , it is a one way street.

The barefoot information offered here so often is not very scientific and a lot of it is based on assumption.
In my (and most farrier's )opinion you can build just as good a foot with the correct kind of shoeing. I find that often you can later get back to barefoot , without puting the horse through any risk of discomfort ,and without boots.
But do be aware of what I and others said about genetics.. you cannot change genetics.
Your horse may already have all the sole it can get. In that case either some kind of shoes or boots are going to be needed to work him on the harder or more gravelly ground.
You did recieve a couple of good suggestions,one early in the thread and mine, buried somewhere on page 1, I think. My suggestion was plastic shoes with equipack filler.That package is flexible which can massage the soles as much as barefoot and thereby stimulate as much sole as geneticallty possible, and eliminate the need for boots.
Or just boot as needed it is cheaper in the long run.

Patty

[caballus]

For those of you who are interested, I brought Cam's page up to date with photos I shot this morning. You can find the updated page at:

http://www.barefoottrim.com/PATHOLOGIES/cammie3.html

Refresh your browser if you've been there before so as to make sure the page gets the lastest upload.

Runtoolive ... I apologize for my part in the petty bickering. I will continue, however, to put forth my answers, just as I did in the beginning of this thread, with an alternative viewpoint from the farriers'. You did mention barefoot and that is why I answered as I did. I thought that you were interested in maintaining your horse barefoot. If I was mistaken, I apologize. You did, however, get alot of good info from everyone who posted. I hope it helps you to make the decision that is best for you and your horse.

--Gwen

[belhaven]

To the OP---since you asked about barefoot I will respond with my experiences on barefoot...I have all my horses barefoot and have for the last 2.5 years.

I won't begin to try to get involved in the genetics issue or how thick or thin a sole must be...I don't have experience with many horses-just mine and those of my friend's that are also barefoot.

I have 4 in my herd (not counting two mini donks):

One is a coming 2yo QH/TB cross
A 5 yo Paint/WB/TB
a 7yo TB
a 21yo TB


I guess I am just blessed with "good footed" horses as mine do just fine.

The hardest one has been the 5yo-he is HUGE...over 17h and 1300#...and his soles I guess would be classified as "thin" for his size.

Xrays don't necessarily show an offensively thin sole but trust me, any mistake I make and he lets me know...so

What I have done that is working so far....good diet-he needs the nutrients to allow his body to do what it must-I prefer Dynamite products but there are several more natural feeds that do well.

24 hour turnout-for movement and overall health (and eases the workload LOL).

MOVEMENT MOVEMENT MOVEMENT (did I mention movement) and conditioning-but this is the kicker...if he is tender and moving around that doesn't help...but investing in a good pair of hoof boots and taking him through a progressive conditioning program does wonders.

Walking (handwalking at first) on hard surface like asphalt is a godsend for rehabing a foot and providing good stimulus for good growth. At first he may need to be booted for this but soon he can do this barefoot-then you can build to walking undersaddle.

I can't say enough about the walking on asphalt...30 minutes a day and you should see changes in two weeks.

All of this assumes of course his foot is balanced-Gene's site has great information on how to make sure his foot is in balance...without a balanced foot all this makes no difference.

A balanced foot without proper conditioning makes no difference.

At the end of they day, I guess I am a member of BUA... :p and have not had it fail in my small world.

Just make sure whoever trims the foot does know how to balance it-and doesn't thin the sole when trimming...big no no especially on one with already thin soles.

I can't make any promises that he will be gravel crunching but boots can fill in where nature fails.

At least doing what I suggested will help him get the best foot he can have.

I hope this helps.

[calshoer]

Itotally agree with walking them on asphalt to *toughen* the soles. Asphalt is a terrific conditioner, without being harsh like rocks. But though the sole will *toughen*, it cannot and will not get thicker than genetically possible. End of my input here.
Patty

[belhaven]

yes-could be true! But tougher can solve the problem as well yes? At least as far as comfort goes.

I just wish I had more asphalt...going back and forth, rinse and repeat on my little drive gets b-o-r-i-n-g. :rolleyes:

[runtolive]

Now this is what I am talking about!!!

I have gravel in his paddock, which has helped huge and the vet gave me a solution that is a hoof hardener, which seems to be working. I feed him in a field and walk shake the hay at the same time, so it mimicks grazing and constant movement.

I took him on a ride yesterday and left the boots off, he was a little tender on the pavement that had rocks on it, other than that, he was fine..

If I am trying to build sole, is it a good idea to leave the boots at home or should he have them on?

[Denise McLain]

Gwen wrote
For those of you who are interested, I brought Cam's page up to date with photos I shot this morning. You can find the updated page at:

Hi Gwen,
I'm a litle confused--which one is Cammie? You show two different horses. One horse is a lighter chestnut with flaxen mane which lies on the right side, another is redder chestnut with mane lying to the left. You show hooves of both horses.
Denise

[caballus]

your'e right! Sorry ... the chestnut is the horse that's next to Cam. I was taking photos of her hooves, too. That's what I get for trying to rush and get this done. :( Just for note, though ... the chestnut is the Saddlebred that boards here. She, too, was chronically foundered a few years ago when first purchased. She's a real spitfire, though, and at 28 still goes pretty much anywhere and has more energy and life than my 16 year old!

--Gwen

[calshoer]

Gwen I have more comments on Cammie .
In the update it is mentioned that she came to this point from from her hooves being "bleeding perforated messes"........
Now given the "before" pictures with the shoes still on (July) ,and the two month later (Sept) pics, it seems that the perforation and bleeding didn't occur until AFTER the shoes were pulled . In the Sept pics she is more seriously rotated, with LOTS more hoof distortion than there was with the shoes.

Also after you removed the shoes and pads, the pictures of that trim shows that she can't even get her heels on the ground without camping the front feet out in front of her. That is a clear indication of too much tension on the DDFT , caused by removing the wedges and too much heel all at once. In my opinion, based on the history and your pictures, removing the shoes and trimming the heels caused additional damage.
Sure she may have finally recovered from that, but there is nothing to suggest that she would not have recovered with the shoes , since there were other underlying factors in the ongoing laminitis that you said got resolved.
You also changed the barn, diet and so on. In your own words ....moved her to a "safe" barn.
I see plenty of laminitic horses wearing perfectly good the****utic sshoes who are not doing well only because the underlying metabolic issues are still at work. Then when the metabolic issues get resolved, those horses, in those same shoes suddenly do terrific . Sometimes within days, not months. One jere struggled for months moved to a different owner and environment, in THREE DAYS was completely sound, with 24-7 turn out, new hay ,and proper meds for once. NO change or removal of shoes.
Then we pulled the shoes after she grew some more foot, and she is sound and barefoot today out on 35 acres.
She GOT SOUND in the same shoes she had been in, as soon as the metabolic issues were addressed. The problem wasn't the shoes. Too many barefooters blame the shoes when there are a number of other mitigating factors too. EVERYTHING get changed, then the shoes get blamed for causing the issues. . That's B.S.

AS well you say she grows heel back rapidly..that should tell you something is still not quite right with the toe leveralge or forces of the DDFT.
If you quit trimming the darn heels so often to try to make it LOOK better, and just roll the foot further back under the toe, you may find the heels quit that excess growing. It is clear to me from you own pictures that you do not fully understand the mechanics .

That horse probably recovered mostly because of the change in barns and metabolic management. Not from removing the shoes.
Patty

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

runtolive in gray, deletia

I took him on a ride yesterday and left the boots off, he was a little tender on the pavement that had rocks on it, other than that, he was fine.

Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?

A horse that's a "little tender" is not "fine," it's in pain.

[caballus]

If you quit trimming the darn heels so often to try to make it LOOK better, and just roll the foot further back under the toe, you may find the heels quit that excess growing.

You know what? You are absolutely right and I know that NOW. I would NOT trim the heels down so severely and when I did, the last time, was at the insistance of others who were very persuasive in that they KNEW "more" than I and even as far as to tell me I was going to cause MORE damage with further rotation if I did not get the heels down. I was a fool for listening and have since learned to listen a hellava lot more closely to the hoof and horse and not to humans with agendas. I can actually thank those people who were insistant that I was going to further the damage to the hooves cause I LEARNED from that mistake. Unfortunately, it was a mistake at the expense of Cam. It took almost a full hoof growth cycle to rehab and I kicked myself daily while watching her struggle. One day I will go through the "journal" and edit and make notes on what I did wrong, what could have been better for Cam. I need to be able to be objective enough as to not add personal agendas into the records, though. That's not the point.

Now given the "before" pictures with the shoes still on (July) ,and the two month later (Sept) pics, it seems that the perforation and bleeding didn't occur until AFTER the shoes were pulled . In the Sept pics she is more seriously rotated, with LOTS more hoof distortion than there was with the shoes.

Yep, right again and I "warned" the owner at the time that she may fully founder (given that rotation had already begun) after the shoes were pulled. The owner understood that. We expected it. I had consulted with 3 top Hoofcare specialists through photos and received recommendations of which I followed. They warned me also. Would I do the same, now, as I did? No. Someday I will add to the journal as to what I would do now, vs. what was done then. We were also working with a vet at the time. Unfortunately, at any given time, one can say that ****e happens. MY mistake, as I look back, was not listening more closely to my own gut and the hooves, themselves. Again, strong lesson learned.

Also after you removed the shoes and pads, the pictures of that trim shows that she can't even get her heels on the ground without camping the front feet out in front of her. That is a clear indication of too much tension on the DDFT , caused by removing the wedges and too much heel all at once. In my opinion, based on the history and your pictures, removing the shoes and trimming the heels caused additional damage.

Removing the shoes was needed as they were very long standing on the hooves and so loose that there was a "clang" with each step as the hoof hit the ground then slapped back up onto the hoof. My major concern at the time was that I worried, literally, that 1/2 of her rear hoof would just simple fall off with the shoe. A former injury and lack of care had forced a tremendous crack which, along with the rest of the hooves, had rotted into crumbled, black garbage. Thankfully, the capsule did not fall off and the rear hooves came back very nicely. As for the heels ... I agree. I would now not take the heels so low and would progress MUCH more slowly than I did. Would I put shoes back on? Or have them put back on? Probably not. But, boots with wedged pads or taped on pads, yes. Would I still recommend 24/7 turnout? Absolutely! Would I still fight to have her getting free choice hay, yes. Dry lotted, yes. Level, solid, firm ground, yes. Have other horses benefitted from what I learned with Cam? Absolutely. Will I ever make wrong judgements again? Probabaly. Just like you will, so and so will ... etc. We all do and instead of dwelling on the negatives of those bad judgement calls we need to openly admit them and LEARN from them.

Again, someday soon, when I have a moment to really go through the records, I will put some addendums to them as to what I would change about her care that would be given NOW vs. what was done then. The most important thing right now is she is comfortable, moving about, getting the attention and care she so deserves and is happy. Her recovery is, yes, in spite of it all. In spite of me, in spite of those before me and in spite of less than perfect conditions during her long recovery. I'm the first one to nitpick on my own work and still wonder at the awesome ability of horses to heal themselves "in spite of" ... and hopefully others will learn from my mistakes so as not to double them on another. Cam has afforded and taught me to trust my own instincts and also to forgive; myself as well as others.

[calshoer]

Gwen with your last post ,my respect level for you just jumped up a bunch. Thank you for clarifying and acknowledging what I saw in the horses pictures, and what I was so upset about.
It is just too bad you did not disclose the patrts of the process in which you had been misguided which caused more problems for the horse (temporarily at least) in describing the original history. It would have made the whole picture a lot more informative and educational rather than making it appear as if you had thought everything was fine all through the process. That is what had upset me the most. Thanks again for the clarification.
Patty

[Denise McLain]

Gwen wrote:
You know what? You are absolutely right and I know that NOW. I would NOT trim the heels down so severely and when I did, the last time, was at the insistance of others who were very persuasive in that they KNEW "more" than I and even as far as to tell me I was going to cause MORE damage with further rotation if I did not get the heels down. I was a fool for listening and have since learned to listen a hellava lot more closely to the hoof and horse and not to humans with agendas. I can actually thank those people who were insistant that I was going to further the damage to the hooves cause I LEARNED from that mistake. Unfortunately, it was a mistake at the expense of Cam. It took almost a full hoof growth cycle to rehab and I kicked myself daily while watching her struggle. One day I will go through the "journal" and edit and make notes on what I did wrong, what could have been better for Cam. I need to be able to be objective enough as to not add personal agendas into the records, though. That's not the point.

OK Gwen, I was one of those that felt the heels needed lowered based on the April 09 05 photos. AND you mentioned the heels were growing faster at that point in time, with the higher heels. You lowered the heels on April 12 05. You NEVER made posts on your list that Cammie was ever worse off--And I know DARN well we (those that felt the heels needed lowered) would have heard about it, privately or publicly. AND if you felt that you had made a mistake then (April 12) by over-lowering the heels why are the heels approx the same height now as they were in the April 12 photos where they are lower? So when exactly did you "learn from your mistake"? And another point, how can you say you trim for a coffin bone that is ground parallel (derotated) or even elevated 5 degrees or so, when the earlier trimming didn't reflect that at all, or how can you say that now if you are saying you plan on leaving higher heels?
Denise

[belhaven]

Now this is what I am talking about!!!

I have gravel in his paddock, which has helped huge and the vet gave me a solution that is a hoof hardener, which seems to be working. I feed him in a field and walk shake the hay at the same time, so it mimicks grazing and constant movement.

I took him on a ride yesterday and left the boots off, he was a little tender on the pavement that had rocks on it, other than that, he was fine..

If I am trying to build sole, is it a good idea to leave the boots at home or should he have them on?


Again, this is just my experience and what feels right in "my" gut. I think of this like conditioning an athlete, for one...and creating "summer feet", second.

You remember summer feet don't you? In June you could barely cross the street barefoot and by August you could run the neighborhood? Well to get summer feet you did have some discomfort---BUT you moved slowly and took breaks on grass :p

So...I would NOT ride a tenderfooted horse...I would only make him carry my weight on terrain he was comfy...if he was tender I would boot him or hand walk him.

I try my best to do the "heavy" conditioning in hand...so my pattern might go something like this:

w-walk
t-tort
us-undersaddle
ih-in hand

so....

walk in boots over all terrain....once he is sound in boots, start ih trot in boots....once sound w/t in hand I would walk barefoot on terrain he is sound...then build to w/t on that terrain.

I build from here...if he is sound in hand in boots at w/t then I ride him at the walk in boots...if he is sound w/t barefoot I ride him w/t

It isn't really a formula...I press the envelope with the boots then without...leaving riding to the end.

For example one horse is totally sound barefoot on pasture, asphalt and packed gravel-he is tender in my arena.

He is sound on all these terrains in boots....so I "work him" in hand (lunging) on all terrains in boots...I walk him booted in the pasture u/s...but NOT in the arena...I will wait until he is sound barefoot w/t in the arena then start walking him u/s.

Does this make any sense?

So...if I knew I was trail riding and it might be rough going, I would just boot in advance or carry them along.

Asphalt conditioning and a boot program really can help things speed along.

I have one horse that now trots fine over gravel barefoot-I used this program to get him there.

It really requires exposure to all kinds of terrain-but using good judgment so you don't cause bruising or abscessing.

I hope that was somewhat clear-if not, and you are interested I will try again.

[caballus]

OK Gwen, I was one of those that felt the heels needed lowered based on the April 09 05 photos. AND you mentioned the heels were growing faster at that point in time, with the higher heels. You lowered the heels on April 12 05. You NEVER made posts on your list that Cammie was ever worse off--And I know DARN well we (those that felt the heels needed lowered) would have heard about it, privately or publicly.

Well, now that you've put yourself here publically, I'll respond. Because I "gave in" to you and the others and I was so damned pi**ed at myself for listening to you against my own better judgement that I didn't even want to discuss it with you or anyone else. The people here at Penzance knew as I did discuss with them. They are all fully aware of the sequence of events as they saw, every day. So this has not gone "unwitnessed" by any means. It has taken, as I said, almost a full growth cycle for her to recover from that. **** I ****, who was responsible for HER care, listened against my own better judgement and *** I *** take full responsibility for the results. I take my "work" and my "stewardship", if you will, of horses extremely seriously and felt ashamed that I caused such harm to that horse because I listened when I knew, deep down, that taking the heels so far down was WRONG. I am STILL very angry about it and hopefully always will be as a reminder not to listen to others when my gut is saying something different. You and the others were wrong and Cam took the brunt of that wrong advice/urging/threatening. Her well-being was in my hands and I f*d it up by being a coward and not standing up to advice I knew was wrong from you and others. I will never do that again. I could have just let it be, I know ... you and others are across country in cyberspace somewhere and never would have known the difference if I had not "discussed" it with you. But, in my Pollyanna manner I trusted you and others to KNOW... no, let me put it another way. In my own lack of self esteem I doubted what I knew to be right. My issue, my problem, my responsibility. As I said, I'll not do that again and I will stand up for that in which I believe to be right. So take it as it is. It is what is and was what it was. Now the situation is right and I will do what I need to do in order to KEEP it right.

[Denise McLain]

Sorry Gwen, but I'm not buying it for a second. If you really felt it was wrong at the time or caused Cammie any harm I KNOW we would have heard--we would have been the first to hear. Not here, and certainly not 8 months later. Who are you kidding??? And you didn't address the fact that the heels are now (Dec 05) approx the same height you lowered them to on Apr 12 05.
Denise

[Denise McLain]

Patty,
Go back and take a look at Jaye's "new founder" thread. Seems he didn't have abscess tracking on the first xrays, had it on the second and had perforation of the coffin bone after his first shoeing. Would you consider that a set-back or progress?
Denise

[caballus]

Sorry Gwen, but I'm not buying it for a second. Buy what you want, Denise. I don't really care at this point. Yeah, the heels are the same height NOW but she's had all that time to adjust to the tensions and stresses to the soft tissues, as Patty mentioned. You and other Strasser's talk about high heeled shoes ... OK, wear high heeled shoes 24/7 for months, years then all of a sudden go to sneakers. You ain't gonna be runnin' no marathons.

I'm going to say this once for the record and then I'll say no more.

Strasser has alot of good information in her book with accordance to the needs of a natural lifestyle of the horse and I agree with that much HOWEVER ... Her method of carving out 'concavity', taking heels right down, carving out the bars, creating precisely a 30* hairline etc. may work for horses in the optimal conditions or rehab conditions such as she has with all the mats, water baths, etc. It may work for horses who are in a controlled environment where the owners can sweep every single pebble and rock out of the way, walk the horse 5 times a day on matted grounds, soak the horse's feet 20 mins. a day, and so on and so forth. To me its the equivalent of having the horse in the hospital under sterile, controlled environment. To carve the bars out, carve out concavity, take the heels down instantly on a horse that has over an inch of heel, is long toed, or whatever, is going to cause pain to that horse and cause harm to it. Is the horse going to heal in months time? Or years time? Probably but no thanks to the surgery/butchery that is done initially. Perhaps she doesn't bloody horse's hooves now but I saw plenty of examples and heard that it was "OK" ... just a little blood, nothing to be concerned with" in the earlier days and still hear it now. There have been many horses who have suffered through the hands of a Strasser trimmer. Certified? Some. Most not and certainly not having the where-with-all to be executing the equivalent of surgery on horse's hooves then turning them back out to raw pasture with bacterias, fungii, uneven ground, muddy ground, whatever ground and in the "less than perfect" care and husbandry setup. This is what I've seen; this is what I've heard; and this is what I now tell people to run from ... as fast as they can.

I say this on record ... I DO advocate walking the horse. I DO advocate 24/7 turnout. I do advocate seeing that the hooves come in contact with some sort of moisture regularly as they would in a more 'natural' environment. I do advocate natural, organic diets and supplements as needed and as can be acquired. I encourage a natural lifestyle as strongly as I can. But will I ever advocate sculpting the perfect hoof on every horse out of the imperfect? Maybe your feet need some perfecting? Let's carve out a higher arch in your foot. Let's change the angles of your ankles, legs, hips, pelvis, shoulders in an instant and then say, 'get used to it.' I am ashamed to even think that I bought into that for a second. Again, I'm not going to allow myself to be bullied by you or anyone else. Say what you wish, as I said, I don't care. You don't know me. You don't know what's in my heart and you certainly have no idea what I feel or not. So say what you will. The final answers for me, now, come from the horses. They don't manipulate; they don't lie; they have no agenda and they certainly could care less whether I'm a blond, brunette, fat, skinny, have degrees up the wazoo or a high school certificate. They don't care if I studied with God, Himself. They just want to feel better and be able to MOVE the way they were created as prey animals with survival instincts. No hoof-no horse. So, again, believe what you will, by what you will, say what you will. I've been honest and upfront and have taken far too much of this board discussing *my* personal issues. As the world turns or true confessions or whatever.

[runtolive]

A horse that's a "little tender" is not "fine," it's in pain.[/QUOTE]

Tom, I had to cross a road to get to the trail....the rest of the ride he didnt miss step once..We have about 1/2 foot of snow right now so it is soft footing. I dont walk up the road for a mile making my horse hurt...that is mean, if I am going to do that or ride on harder ground, the boots go on. But I do like reading your posts as you seem to know what you are talking about, even if you do have a :eek: sense of humor!!! :D

[Denise McLain]

So why on post #27 of this very thread did you post photos of the hoof trimmed on Apr 12 05 and not post a huge disclaimer that the heels were (according to you) "drastically over-lowered", admit that the horse was sore and warn folks not to try this at home???? Instead, you paraded that photo to Patty and implied the hoof was "rehabbed". Now you're saying that hoof, because of the way it was trimmed on Apr 12 05, took 8 months of recovery. You have zero, zip, nada credibility. And if you do as you plan to in the future regarding not lowering heels to derotate the coffin bone on a founderd hoof yet plan to wedge up that foot you're going to cause a heap of trouble. And once again you're proving your ignorance on the Strasser methods. I'm not going to quote verbatim from Strasser's blue book but suffice it to say that the trim can be adjusted for any number of circ*mstances. And for the record, I am not Strasser-Certified. Haven't been for years.
Denise

[Rick Burten]

The testosterone level is rapidly rising :eek: Soon we may be witness to some bare chest beating(hubba-hubba). Front row seats are still available, and the popcorn and beer concessionaires are at hand.

The maestro steps to the podium, raises his baton and the orchestra begins to play "Love is in the air...." :D A perfect start to our Christmas/Hannukah/Kwanza holiday season!

[pawsplus]

This is a scary board. :eek:

[Gary Hill]

Oh how I do love a good cat fight!

[Cyber Farrier]

And on that uplifting note, this thread has run its course.

Baron