Ciderm EQ

[beslagsmed]

Wondering if any of you have exprience with this product. If so would like to hear about it.
Mikel

[Stephen E. O'Grady, DVM]

This is another chlorine dioxide product manufactured by Frontier Pharmaceutical in New York. Absolutely no science behind their claims of mode of action or efficacy.

Stephen E O'Grady, DVM

[beslagsmed]

This is another chlorine dioxide product manufactured by Frontier Pharmaceutical in New York. Absolutely no science behind their claims of mode of action or efficacy.

Stephen E O'Grady, DVM

Did you read the article in the Professional Farrier Mag (Sep/Oct 2005 issue) by Dr. Walter Kreeger? I have used Cleantrax which is another Chlorine Dioxide product and it cleaned the hooves very well. I have also read the research done my Michael Woldenstein and his use of chlorine dioxide. Wouldn't this method of application(ciderm eq) be more effective for the farrier in the field?

Mikel

[mwmyersdvm]

I am an Oxyfresh distributor and am very familiar with the chemistry of chlorine dioxide. This is a very good disinfectant, but it is very unstable. Any contact of the product in its container with any extraneous outside material will degrade it quickly. Considering the likelihood of this occurrence in field conditions, I would doubt that it is very effective very long after the product is opened. Some of its original uses were in dental offices where the environment is far more controlled.

If you want to use a much tougher antiseptic that is functional in the face of organic matter and is very cost effective, I would choose chlorrhexidine (Chlorasan or Nolvasan). Even at a one to ten dilution it is not harmful to soft tissue structures and if you want to really get tough on a hoof, just apply it full strength.

Your note that it cleans well is nice, but if you want to use the best cleaner I have ever seen take a look at the EQ Solutions product. Very few products out there clean as well and as safely as this one does. Chlorine dioxide would be a very expensive cleaner.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

[Katy Watts]

I am an Oxyfresh distributor and am very familiar with the chemistry of chlorine dioxide. This is a very good disinfectant, but it is very unstable. Any contact of the product in its container with any extraneous outside material will degrade it quickly.

Chlorine dixoide is used as a surface disinfectant on potatoes going into long term storage. We generate it on site by chemical reaction and use it immediately as a surface drench. I agree with Dr. Myers. Doesn't sound like something that would work out of a bottle.
Katy
who really knows more about potatoes than grass.

[Phil Armitage]

I have used White Lightning several times and it is very effective. I mix and use it in the field as directed and have had no problems.

[beslagsmed]

I have used White Lightning several times and it is very effective. I mix and use it in the field as directed and have had no problems.

Phi,
What kind of success did you have with it? Did you have to evacuate horn wall as well? When used Cleantrax I had to evacuate horn wall, then rebuild back.

Mikel

[Stephen E. O'Grady, DVM]

Did you read the article in the Professional Farrier Mag (Sep/Oct 2005 issue) by Dr. Walter Kreeger?

Yes and it should not have been accepted and/or published anywhere as research.

Wouldn't this method of application(ciderm eq) be more effective for the farrier in the field?

First one needs to prove that a product works and secondly if there is actually a need for said product in the situation being treated.

Stephen E. O'Grady, DVM, MRCVS

[beslagsmed]

Did you read the article in the Professional Farrier Mag (Sep/Oct 2005 issue) by Dr. Walter Kreeger?

Yes and it should not have been accepted and/or published anywhere as research.

Wouldn't this method of application(ciderm eq) be more effective for the farrier in the field?

First one needs to prove that a product works and secondly if there is actually a need for said product in the situation being treated.

Stephen E. O'Grady, DVM, MRCVS

I have worked with Michael Wildenstein (Cornell U.) using a chlorine dioxide based solution to help treat WLD. How would you assess Michael's work with WLD?

Mikel

[tbloomer]

Any product used to treat WLD can only be effective if it provides some form of residual action. If you kill the fungus, the horn is still in a weakened state. Something needs to be there to prevent the fungus from returning. If you remove all of the infected horn, then whatever product you use to disinfect is moot.

I've had 100% success with preventing the return of WLD by debriding the infected horn, treating the debrided area with merthiolate and applying an acrylic patch over the debrided area (If needed). The acrylic bonds very well over the merthiolate and I have never had the infection return under a patch. So far I've done this on about 15 horses. I have tried every other commercial product that was advertised to kill WLD. ALL of them failed. Merthiolate has never failed me.

If I catch the infection in the early stages I can usually kill it with merthiolate without debriding. It just depends on how far the WLD has penetrated inside the wall. I also put a drop of the stuff in old nail holes when I see the beginning stages of WLD. Usually that stops the WLD from spreading beyond the nail holes. I also use this stuff on wall separations and cracks. Any time I have to dig crumbly stuff out of the white line area or I see the hoof wall crumbling around old nail holes, I put some merthiolate on it . . . end of problem.

The late Burney Chapman is the one who is credited with discovering merthiolate as a treatment for WLD. I don't know why it's been kept a secret for so long. It just works every time I use it.

Tom Bloomer, CF

[mwmyersdvm]

Actually, merthiolate has lost favor as a disinfectant as it is primarily bacteriostatic than bacteriocidal. Its efficacy against fungi is unknown and probably largely untested.

If you clean the white line area very well and correct the hoof imbalances that weakened the wall to begin with, you will likely have success with no disinfectant of any kind. Dr. Redden has done this a number of times with great success. I do this regularly and rarely have to use any kind of harsh disinfectant after a good cleaning and balancing.

[Donnie Walker]

I also have never had to use a disinfectant on WLD. I don't have it occur on client horses, except new ones that were already infected when I got them. I get the foot back in proper form, clean the entire area and keep it on schedule. Fortunately I do not live in a real wet area, except in winter, so I am blessed.

[J.H. shoeing]

Donnie

I find WLD or HWD (hoofwall disease) in some barns around our area. I usually treat them aggressively and if they show symtoms again it is usually barn related. I go in and out of several boarding barns. And like you I find that schedule, form, and function are key. Where I grew up WLD was always there and I treated it and didn't really realize what I was doing.

The Farrier I apprenticed under always had me debride or resect the small area. He just told me that if I cleaned it up that it would grow out fine. He was right. I listened to Burney at A&M in '92 and he added some to that treatment.

Not much WLD here and we are blessed in more ways than one.

Jeff Holder RGB

[J.H. shoeing]

Tom

I almost forgot to ask. When you debride and treat a WLD case you have never missed a speck? I debride, treat and then go back and "buff" off my drbrided area with a dremmel and look for the tell-tell little orange specks that the merisol will show. Of course the merisol should clear up that tract if it chased it down but if it does not wouldn't the patch cause/create a good place for the WLD to grow??

Jeff H. RGB

[Phil Armitage]

Phi,
What kind of success did you have with it? Did you have to evacuate horn wall as well? When used Cleantrax I had to evacuate horn wall, then rebuild back.

Mikel

WLD is very rare in New England. I have only seen one real case of WL, it was a horse from another part of the country. We treated her with White Lightning. The reason we went this route, was because she was very difficult to shoe, and I did not want to debribe too much horn without haveing a Vet around to sedate her for shoeing. The owner could not get her Vet out for awhile so I went the Whitelightning, because of how deep it penetrates the foot without harming live tissue. I followed Mike Weldestien article and it worked. It stopped the WLD from getting out of control. Trimmed and balanced the feet and trimmed her every 4-5 weeks, took almost a year to get her feet into good shape.

In my area, muddy and wet paddocks is a common problem, so thrush and bacteria in the horn and whiteling is a bigger problem, I have treated several horses with Whitelightning, and it is very affective in killing bacteria very deep in the hoof. It has worked great every time I have used it. What I do is mix the stuff 50/50 with white vineger and either do a soak for aprox. 15 min. or apply it to the foot with swabs after trimming and shoeing. I have the owner continue this for a few day, but a I think the initial treatment kills most of the bacteria and then it is a matter of keeping the feet clean and keep up with farrier work after that. One recomendation is to mix a small amount and put it into an IV bag and the foot into the bag. The only thing I am not clear on is for how long, I find 15 min. is plenty of time. I have noticed more than 30 seems to be too long. I have seen horse owners leave the bags on over night and this is way too long. It is pretty affective in a short period of time.

[beslagsmed]

If I remember Cleantrax was only effective for about 45 minutes after mixing it. It seemed like we(when I was at Cornell) soaked the hoof for about only 15 minutes or so. It was the gasses not the liquid that really did the work.

Thanks for the info.
Mikel

[Stephen E. O'Grady, DVM]

I have worked with Michael Wildenstein (Cornell U.) using a chlorine dioxide based solution to help treat WLD. How would you assess Michael's work with WLD?

Mike Wildenstein is an excellent farrier and I respect his opinion. I have not seen any of his research in the literature.

A few years ago we did a small study with chlorine dixoide on quite a few canker cases (with controls) and we found it to be of no value.

We have treated a large number of WLD cases over the years in this practice and we have never seen the need for this type of product.

Hope this answers your questions.

Stephen E. O'Grady, DVM, MRCVS

[Phil Armitage]

I have worked with Michael Wildenstein (Cornell U.) using a chlorine dioxide based solution to help treat WLD. How would you assess Michael's work with WLD?

Mike Wildenstein is an excellent farrier and I respect his opinion. I have not seen any of his research in the literature.

A few years ago we did a small study with chlorine dixoide on quite a few canker cases (with controls) and we found it to be of no value.

We have treated a large number of WLD cases over the years in this practice and we have never seen the need for this type of product.

Hope this answers your questions.

Stephen E. O'Grady, DVM, MRCVS

Steve, I respect your level of knowledge and experience. But I think you might be missing the point and some valuable data from others, the whole idea of this product is to be less invasive and not harm live tissue, if it does the job without being invasive then that is a good thing in my book. Haveing to remove alot of horn is not always an option out in the sticks of Maine and getting a Vet with your skills out is virtually impossible.

When you retire from the horse capital of the world, maybe you can open a small practice in Southern Maine and we can do a horse a week just for something to do. :)

[tbloomer]

Tom

I almost forgot to ask. When you debride and treat a WLD case you have never missed a speck? I debride, treat and then go back and "buff" off my drbrided area with a dremmel and look for the tell-tell little orange specks that the merisol will show. Of course the merisol should clear up that tract if it chased it down but if it does not wouldn't the patch cause/create a good place for the WLD to grow??

Jeff H. RGB
The Mersol will turn from pink to green wherever it comes into contact with "bad stuff." Where I usually encounter WLD is in horses that are new to my practice. Generally they have had thier feet neglected or poorly trimmed and balanced and there are wall cracks and seperation. I have found some very large areas of WLD behind what appears to be nothing more than a tight crack in the toe. Yet when you push a nail into the crack from the white line, you find a big hollow spot where you can completely bury the nail. Some folks might call this seedy toe behind a toe crack. I have treated 3 cases where I opened up the crack and debrided from just below coronet to the ground. In these cases the "cheese" extended all the way to the stratum internum and covered an area about 1" wide behind the crack. After debridment I coated the area with mersol, dried it with a heat gun and then patched with acrylic. Also applied a layer of fiberglass cloth over the patch to bridge the crack and stabilize the patch. In all 3 cases the patch grew out with the hoof and with each trimming I could see a fine pink line where the Mersol was imbeded in the first few layers of horn cells beyond the patch.

When I use the Vettec Equi-Pak or any other kind of pad I always coat the bottom of the hoof with Mersol before pouring in the Equi-Pak. I've never had anything grow under a pad when I have coated the bottom of the hoof with Mersol.

In the last year I have not debrided any of the cracks that I have found with WLD under them. Instead I have dug out the inside from the ground surface of the wall using a nail. Then poured Mersol into the hole and let it soak in for a minute. Usually it seeps out of the crack a little - turning green as it flows. I repeat the same treatment with each trim until the crack grows out. So far this has worked very well and I haven't had to do the debridement because the mersol has stopped or slowed the progress of the WLD to the point where the hoof is growing faster than the disease.

I have 3 chronic founder cases which I am absolutely certain were turned around by using Mersol to keep the fungus and bacteria from eating away at the comprimized laminar regon in the quarters. These horses went through 5 different farriers over a period of 4 years, including one farrier who is a highly regarded expert on founder.

The problem was that a heart bar shoe only works when it stays nailed on the hoof. These horses all had their quarters rotted away about 2/3rds of the way up the wall. Any place you put a nail would just turn to mush in a week. You could bury your hoof pick in the white line all the way around the hoof. We tried Fungidye for about a month and the condition got worse. It seemed as though the Fungadye was making the area even more susceptable to further infection. Then we switched to Mersol. I had the owner pick out the white line area daily and apply Mersol. In about 2 weeks the seperation was beginning to grow down tighter. In a month the quarters were tight. After 3 months the only separation I had to deal with was the laminar wedge. It's been over a year with these horses barefoot. One has come pasture sound, one of them is sound enough for light riding, and one of them is still dealing with pretty severe pedal osteitis.

When I started with these horses none of them could walk without some kind of frog support. They were unable to stand on one foot long enough for me to nail on a shoe. So we bedded their stalls deep and just kept their quarters picked clean and kept applying the Mersol. Eventually all 3 horses developed a very thick sole. I have been trimming them every two weeks . . . chopping the heels down and chopping off the laminar wedge.

Occasionally the owner gets busy and forgets to pick out the quarters and apply the Mersol for a few weeks. When this happens, things start to go south very quickly. These horses live on low, wet ground. The only dry place they have is in their stalls. The one horse that is now sound enough to ride is no longer being treated with Mersol. There is no place except the toe where the wall/sole junction is not tight.

In regards to the OP asking about Mersol being effective against bacteria - I have had ZERO success using Mersol to treat thrush. Any case of deep trush (interbulbular dermatitis) where I have tried Mersol - it has failed. I've had better success with Nolvasan in cases of deep thrush. YMMV.

Tom Bloomer, CF

[rbloom11]

hello!

White Lightning is very affective in situations with WLD. Mike Wildenstien is a clinician for White Lightning and has found great success with its use in the horses that he shoes. Anyone that I have spoke to that uses White lightning correctly finds it to be increadibly affective. Mike Wildenstien has written articles on the use of White Lightning. If you are interested in reading the article, let me know and I can send you a copy either through e-mail or by regular mail. :o

For the vets that are saying that it has no merrit....they won't use anything that "they weren't taught in medical school" If they simply saw the results, there attitudes would absolutely change.

White Lightning is not only used for WLD, it is used for any fungal infections. It is 100% safe, as my younger sister uses it to clear the zits from her face.

Rachael ;)

[ray steele]

Monday I reset a horse that came into my practice two years ago with what I considered very poor feet, the previous farrier had dealt with large cracks and fissures with clips, and acrylics. While nothing was oozy(is that a word) I removed what I could and got shoes on that I could keep in place for 5 to six weeks, at each setting I was commenting about the degradation on the hoof wall. A # of over the counter remedys were tried,and the feel kept falling apart. I was using 4.5 race eheads and restamping the shoes to accept them.This summer ,August ,I suggested that the owner try a very simple treatment, pull the shoes, use boots for trail riding,and treat the feet every other day by soaking in , bleach, white vinegar, and hydrogen peroxide. The suggestion was to alternate each soaking (bleach by itself, peroxide by itself etc not mixed together). The soaking method was in a shallow bucket with a lid and a sponge cut to fit the bottom of the container. The sponge held the liquid but saturated the hoof about 2.5 to 3 inches up. If the container was tipped the liquid could be saved for the most part since the sponge quickly reabsorbed it . The small buckets could be covered and the contents re used.
The idea was not to "cure" wld but trying to change the environment in which the organisims lived and flourished.
Well the horse could not tolerate the boots, to much irritation and could not take being barefoot even standing around. After 10 days or so we nailed him up again. Resetting every three weeks. sometimes thru the old nail holes if they were solid.
In December, I had no trouble putting on winter shoes with tubed rim pads(yes Tom, they seem to have kept the snow away from here also),and carbide pins.
Monday I reset shoes and pads ,used 4 Save Edge conventional 5 slim nails per shoe and told the owner that the walls were thick enough that I think I could've driven a truck thru them. The owner informed me that she is soaking once a week now still rotating.

I can't say what cleaned these feet up, don't forget it is winter, but it has been a pretty wet mild one. I think it is worth trying the regiment a few more times. Just passing on my observations.

Regards

Ray Steele

[tbloomer]

Monday I reset a horse that came into my practice two years ago with what I considered very poor feet, the previous farrier had dealt with large cracks and fissures with clips, and acrylics. While nothing was oozy(is that a word) I removed what I could and got shoes on that I could keep in place for 5 to six weeks, at each setting I was commenting about the degradation on the hoof wall. A # of over the counter remedys were tried,and the feel kept falling apart. I was using 4.5 race eheads and restamping the shoes to accept them.This summer ,August ,I suggested that the owner try a very simple treatment, pull the shoes, use boots for trail riding,and treat the feet every other day by soaking in , bleach, white vinegar, and hydrogen peroxide. The suggestion was to alternate each soaking (bleach by itself, peroxide by itself etc not mixed together). The soaking method was in a shallow bucket with a lid and a sponge cut to fit the bottom of the container. The sponge held the liquid but saturated the hoof about 2.5 to 3 inches up. If the container was tipped the liquid could be saved for the most part since the sponge quickly reabsorbed it . The small buckets could be covered and the contents re used.
The idea was not to "cure" wld but trying to change the environment in which the organisims lived and flourished.
Well the horse could not tolerate the boots, to much irritation and could not take being barefoot even standing around. After 10 days or so we nailed him up again. Resetting every three weeks. sometimes thru the old nail holes if they were solid.
In December, I had no trouble putting on winter shoes with tubed rim pads(yes Tom, they seem to have kept the snow away from here also),and carbide pins.
Monday I reset shoes and pads ,used 4 Save Edge conventional 5 slim nails per shoe and told the owner that the walls were thick enough that I think I could've driven a truck thru them. The owner informed me that she is soaking once a week now still rotating.

I can't say what cleaned these feet up, don't forget it is winter, but it has been a pretty wet mild one. I think it is worth trying the regiment a few more times. Just passing on my observations.

Regards

Ray Steele
I'm wondering if increasing the frequency of shoeing from 5 weeks to 3 weeks had anything to do with improving the situation. In effect you changed tthe envirnoment and the shoeing cycle. So now you need to find out which one or which combination of things is working. Or . . . if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Tom Bloomer, CF

[ray steele]

Tom,

The cycle now, or reletively recently is 9 weeks(winter), the shorter periods previous were because the little wall left was falling apart. I agree there are many variables, I 'm just passing on the info as I see it.
Regards

Ray Steele

[beslagsmed]

I had part of a tube of the Ciderm EQ remaining from a usage a while back, so used it on a horse which had thrush so bad it was bleeding. Yesterday I was out to the horse. The frog has grown back real nice and the horse is no longer lame. Did it cure it? I'm no scientist and didn't do a clinical study, but I tend to think it helped. Sure didn't hurt. We had also had a real good winter, ie snow, cold frozen ground which helped a lot. Changing the environment has got to have a great effect on WLD

Mikel

[ray steele]

Just passing on some more observations,

Yesterday, I worked on a qh that in November ,when I set him up with his winter shoes was showing several deep crevices at the white line with the black "cream " and a cheesy hoof wall. I pointed it out to the owner and suggested the bleach/peroxide/ white vinegar theory.
Reset the horse in January, still seeing the same, and found out that the owner was not doing anything about it, bringing it up again caused her to call the vet who suggested using my felt rim pads and iodine, when the owner called me ,i again suggested the b/p/wv. treatment and we could look at it again at the next reset and if necessary try the rim pads et al..

Yesterday , hooves had been treated every other day with either peroxide or vinegar, no bleach was used, after trimming,crevices barely noticible, only discoloration, no black goo, more solid hoof wall , no discerable cheesiness.


I have a few other horses for which I have suggested this proto to. Hopefully this info will help some other cases. It is not scientific by any means, but I pass it on as my observations.

Regards

Ray Steele

[beslagsmed]

I tell many of my customers if they clean out the hooves first, then put in a little hydrogen peroxide, let it foam up, then brush it out with a steel brush. After take some iodine on cotton and wipe it over the bottoms of the hooves. I think this has helped as well
Mikel

[Redd Mcintyre]

I've had 100% success with preventing the return of WLD by debriding the infected horn, treating the debrided area with merthiolate and applying an acrylic patch over the debrided area (If needed)
Tom Bloomer, CF
The Mersol will turn from pink to green wherever it comes into contact with "bad stuff.Tom Bloomer, CF

Tom can you explain the difference of merthoilate and mersol? :confused:
thanks redd mcintyre