Old Founder

[Jaye Perry]

Pony, 13.2hs, 14 yrs old.Bona Fide Cushings, 2 grms periglide @ day.



Your thoughts?

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Jaye Perry in gray

Pony, 13.2hs, 14 yrs old.Bona Fide Cushings, 2 grms periglide @ day.

Your thoughts?

Tenotomy?

[Rick Burten]

Jaye Perry in gray

Pony, 13.2hs, 14 yrs old.Bona Fide Cushings, 2 grms periglide @ day.

Your thoughts?

Tenotomy?
Tom,
You took the words right off my keyboard :D

Jaye,

Have you worked on this pony yet? If so, do you have some "after" rads?

Absent a tenotomy, and even with a tenotomy, I'd get those feet de-rotated as much as possible, lowering the heels, removing some of the toe from the top side, and then perhaps wedging the pony back up to keep it comfortable.

Are you seeing any sepsis coming through the sole beneath what is left of the distal leading edge of p3?

Is the Cushings now under control?

[calshoer]

Though tenotomies are proving useful in the EARLIER stages of bad rotation, I think most veterinarians who try tenotomies on old chronic cases like this pone will say that they are not successful in the long run.
They sometimes re-contract quicky after the tendon heals. (a few weeks) As well there are a lot of connective tissues inside the foot that have "set" that way with adhesions and such that will abscess badly if you create that much movement in the bone position that fast. And if you lose the rear of the hoof capsule to heel abscessing from too much bone position change, you pretty much lose the battle at that point.

I have seen better results to gain comfort and mobility on these kind by either:
1)leaving them barefoot and just rolling the back inch or so of the heels off a little bit and leaving everything under the tip of P3,(a 'rock and roll' foot so to speak) OR....
2) if the sole is not sufficient to protect the bone, applying a glued on solid package like a Steward clog, especialy if they ware sore in the frog and hel area, (they frequenty are) or .....
3)using a glued or nailed plastic shoe with equipack underneath, if they are not sore in the heels and frog and can tolerate hoof capsule expansion there.

And if the diet is also not adjusted to drastically reduce the carb intake, they may not get better even with the pergolide.
Patty

[Ronald Aalders]

If this is an old stable case I don't think you need a tenotomy. Derotate first, be sure to provide adequate support to the posterior part of the foot, ease breakover as much as you can and wedge the foot up. IME with breakover around the COA a 4 or 5 degree wedge will do.


Ronald Aalders

[Diana Margarita]

What is..."Are you seeing any sepsis coming through the sole beneath what is left of the distal leading edge of p3?"

[Jaye Perry]

What is..."Are you seeing any sepsis coming through the sole beneath what is left of the distal leading edge of p3?"


No sepsi or seepage from any portal. No after Rads as of yet but on the trim list for this week. Will update.

[Rick Burten]

What is..."Are you seeing any sepsis coming through the sole beneath what is left of the distal leading edge of p3?"

Sorry 'bout that Diana.

Sepis is a 'toxic' condition that occurs as the result of bacteria and their waste products from a specific infection point. Some folks would call that an abscess, but it is far more involved.

In essence, I was asking Jaye if there was evidence of advanced infection in the sole, sole corium and area just below what remained of the tip of the coffin bone.

[Stephen E. O'Grady, DVM]

[QUOTE= 2 grms periglide @ day.[/QUOTE]

Jaye - I trust the above is not your dose of pergolide for this pony.

Stephen E. O'Grady, DVM

[Jaye Perry]

[QUOTE= 2 grms periglide @ day.

Jaye - I trust the above is not your dose of pergolide for this pony.

Stephen E. O'Grady, DVM[/QUOTE]


No, from the history provided for me it was increased up from 1 to 2. I'm no vet or chemist, grams or milligrams which ever is applicable. It was increased per vet as told per the customer.

[Jaye Perry]

Have you worked on this pony yet? If so, do you have some "after" rads?

Absent a tenotomy, and even with a tenotomy, I'd get those feet de-rotated as much as possible, lowering the heels, removing some of the toe from the top side, .......?


Here's a few pics before and after the trim of the "Old Foundered" Pony.

[Jaye Perry]

Here's the feet.

[Jaye Perry]

Here's the tools I used.

[Jaye Perry]

Here's one foot

[Jaye Perry]

Here's what was left after trim, I think my grinder got away from me?, oops!

[Jaye Perry]

Here are both feet. Relax PETA.

[Ronald Aalders]

Looks a lot better Jaye! Funny how such horse keep knuckling their knees to relieve DDFT pull.

When using the angle grinder did you put the foot on a stand? Just wondering if it would work on very sore horses too.......


Ronald Aalders

[matryoshka]

Wow!

Thanks for posting this. It's very informative. I guess vets don't usually take "after" x-rays, but please post them if they do. How did the pony walk off when you finished? Was it a lot more comfortable? It seems like it should be.

I know of an Arabian mare with equine diabetes and some other metabolic problem who has feet with a similar rotation. They keep her comfortable with a shoeing package. It looks to me like they put the shoe where it should be in relation to the coffin bone and pretty much ignore the angle of the front edge of the hoof. So her hoof kind of truncates at the front of the shoe. It looks like hell, but she kicks up her heels and runs around like a young thing.

Pam

[Ronald Aalders]

I have a question there Denise. When horses knuckle their knees is it because of heel trouble of the anterior part of the foot/DDFT problems bothering them?


Ronald Aalders

[calshoer]

Denise, in the cases I see who are permanently knuckled over, it began with *involuntary* contraction of the flexor muscles. Possibly from a 'misfiring' of signals from the golgi tendon apparatus in response to the ongoing general pain and/or chronic tension in the DDFT from mismanaged toes.
Then eventually the connective tissues around the distal joints get set that way and can not be relaeased. The extensor is only tight because it can't stretch enough.
Patty

[Ronald Aalders]

I think the knuckling and weight bearing in the extensors is a sign of severe pain; exactly where in the hoof it is originating from I can't be sure.

I doubt that horses that relax their knees as soon as they get a chance are in "severe pain". I agree severe pain has this nice dramatic ring to it but it does not happen too often.

I run into a rubber kneed horse every now and then and mostly they are either reiners or cutters. I did notice that a lot of them have an ok heel. You don't see it too often on really flat footed ones. Lowering heels almost always straightens the knees somewhat. But I'm not sure if that's the way to go.


Ronald Aalders


p.s. thís is a horse in severe pain

[cowboy_bc]

Hi all,

Jaye,

Good work! I have to let you know that your work is being critisized internationally so check out the last few posts on this URL.

http://www.gossiping.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19&mforum=farriergiles

Kevin

[Ronald Aalders]

Are those m*r*ns really debating about the use of an angle grinder on a foot?

What? That's not traditional enough? Why don't they shut up and try and learn somerhing here in stead of wining about what obviously works.



Ronald Aalders

from Europe too...........

[Jaye Perry]

Hi all,

Jaye,

Good work! I have to let you know that your work is being critisized internationally so check out the last few posts on this URL.
http://www.gossiping.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19&mforum=farriergiles
Kevin

It doesn't matter if people talk good or bad about YA as long as they are talking. :p

[Jaye Perry]

........

I run into a rubber kneed horse every now and then and mostly they are either reiners or cutters. I did notice that a lot of them have an ok heel. You don't see it too often on really flat footed ones. Lowering heels almost always straightens the knees somewhat. But I'm not sure if that's the way to go.




Depends if the horse is tied in or under the knee. These type of leg conformations "usually have a good heel" as you say and are not "flat footed".

Tied in at the knee conformation dictates a lot of the heel manipulation of the heel during laminitic episodes. IMO these horses with this leg conformation cannot stand a lot of heel off or dramatic derotation techniques.
The Tendon(s) usually only have a 10-15 % elastic reformable nature before the tendon goes into the plastic or non-reformable nature. The tied in at the Knee conformation restricts the tendon elasticity because of the constriction behind the knee. The derotation techniques to reduce the heels or trim to widest parts of the frog methods can be detrimental if over trimmed.
Most of the damaged sustained in laminitic situations is the foot with the tied in at the knee conformation. Usually the higher heeled foot to begin with before the onset of laminitis.

[Phil Armitage]

Jaye, Ron and Dennise are you talking about over in the knee or bucked knees? I just started shoeing a 14 YO TB eventer, was told not to trim the heels that he needs them. The heel are underrun, he has one low and one high foot and I also found out he had an injury in his right hind pasturn that has heeled and should be OK now. He is over both front knees and for the lack of better terms his knees shake, move back and forth as he stands on the ties. He lands toe first when lunged at a walk and trot, however everyone claims he is sound. The owner has him messaged because she was told he gets sore in his back.

Hey Jaye nice job trimming and dressing those feet. The grinder sure looks like it makes it easier. Hard to dress that much horn off by hand on these little guys, done a few and it is time consumeing with a rasp. Looks like a great way to get most of it off and would be less stress on the horse.

[T.L. Buck]

Jaye, I agree, I think you did a great job with those feet. I have been known to use a tree saw to do the same thing. I also use a grinder occasionally on drafts. If it did the job is all that matters. Over on the other side of the pond, they could learn a few things from us cowboys over here.
~ Buck

[Jaye Perry]

Jaye, I agree, I think you did a great job with those feet. I have been known to use a tree saw to do the same thing. I also use a grinder occasionally on drafts. If it did the job is all that matters. Over on the other side of the pond, they could learn a few things from us cowboys over here.
~ Buck

Thanks to you and Phil both. Just another day at the office. :)

[Red Amor]

I agree that any tool that a person can efectively and safely use to acheive the desired affect in a well ballenced funcional hoof in the shortest posible time ,with out hurting or upsetting the horse is ok by me

Other than a dremel tool and a battery drill to excavate a hoof and the drill with 1/4" bit to releive and abbscess I ve never use other power tools
That doesent mean I wont in the future if the horse will let me

A good pro can work wonders with just about anything anything at hand , simply because He or She KNOWS WHAT IT IS THEY ARE TRYING TO ACHIEVE AND HOW TO GO ABOUT GETTING THE DESIRED RESULT their tools dont have to be flash or even comventional

If you dont beleive me do a survival cause or spend time in the bush with a black fella

Good on ya Jaye
some of these other jokers will end up with wet swags / bedrolls for sure :)

[Jaye Perry]

Drove by the other day and checked on the pony. He look good!

[Rick Burten]

He look good!

Please forgive me for the following, but when I read the above, a story jumped up in what passes for my mind, and I had an irresistable urge to share it.

A farmer decides his son is old enough to go buy a horse all by himself. He sends his son to town to barter with the local horse trader. When the son gets to town the trader tells the boy that he has but one horse available and that that horse "don't look so good." The boy asks to see the horse anyway. The trader brings out a horse that is kinda long haired, a bit dirty, and on the thin side. The boy, feeling himself to be a good judge of horseflesh, sees a diamond in the rough. He barters with the trader and soon is the proud owner of a new horse. When the boy gets home he can't wait to show his dad their new prize. His dad comes over to the corral, the boy turns the horse loose and the horse takes off running and bucking and plows head first into the side of the barn, twice! Dad goes over, catches the horse and begins to examine him. "Why this horse is totally blind" the dad shouts. "Get back in the buggy, we're taking this horse back , right now". Off to town they go. The dad confronts the horse trader. "Why you no good son of a horse thief, you lied to my son and I want our money back!" Confused, the trader asks "In what way did I lie to your son?" Dad replies, "You sold him a blind horse and never told him that the horse was blind." The trader smiles and says, "Oh, but you are misinformed. I told your son right at the start that this horse 'Didn't look so good'."

Jaye, I am truely glad that your pony 'looks good!" :D

[Katy Watts]

Jaye,
Why is a pony that tests positive for Cushing's, needs a very high dose of pergolide, grazing green grass during the winter when sugar is the highest? Periods with nights below 40F can cause sugar concentration to triple.
Your excellent work will all go to waste if they do not take away this trigger for metabolic meltdown.
A grazing muzzle or large dry lot can make a HUGE difference.
Katy

[Ronald Aalders]

Wouldn't that put us out of business? :D


Ronald Aalders

[Jaye Perry]

Jaye,
Why is a pony that tests positive for Cushing's, needs a very high dose of pergolide, grazing green grass during the winter when sugar is the highest? Periods with nights below 40F can cause sugar concentration to triple.
Your excellent work will all go to waste if they do not take away this trigger for metabolic meltdown.
A grazing muzzle or large dry lot can make a HUGE difference.
Katy


Points have been explained to owners. Most of the time with hard headed adults the only way to catch their attention is through their pocket books or burial of the horse/pony. Economics with this pony seems to be no issue!!???
Thanks Katy, your presentation in West Palm Beach was extraordinary!

[Katy Watts]

Points have been explained to owners. Most of the time with hard headed adults the only way to catch their attention is through their pocket books or burial of the horse/pony. Economics with this pony seems to be no issue!!???
Thanks Katy, your presentation in West Palm Beach was extraordinary!

Jaye,
Tell them if they want to get jollies by feeding a pony to death, it might be more humane to just give him free choice sweet feed and get it over quickly, rather than a long slow death by grass.
Glad you liked the presentations. Working on getting them ready to sell with voice narration. For these clients, tell them they cost $100 a peice. For the rest, they are $25 each. I realize some people think that the more something costs, the more value it has, and money can solve any problem. Also tell them you can arrange a private phone consultation for $100/hour. Naw.... make it $200/hour.
Katy

[markbfreeman]

gday from sydney,just got off uk site and had to know what all the fuss was about!

seems to me the poms have lost sight of the fact that our job is look after the horse(or pony in this case)who cares if were not being conventional?
mate you did what you had to do and the pony is better for it!
good job.

[Jaye Perry]

Well it's been a pony cycle for trimming. Here is what we have today.

[Jaye Perry]

Here is the after trim. Left Side.

[Jaye Perry]

After trim Right side. I also used the same Grinder.

[Ronald Aalders]

I'm not sure if you posted them already Jaye, but could you post a few pics of the grinders you use? Would that be the drum type of grinder you're using? And maybe a pic of you using it? Just to get an idea. I'm not smart but a great copycat! :D


Ronald Aalders

[Rick Burten]

u cannot derotate p3 no such thing.
You base this statement on what information?
do not pay any attention to "derotation" ask ur vet no such thing.
I don't know which vet(s) you've talked to, but the ones I talk to and work with, say something entirely different
keep this pony on a strict diet any grain can cause the founder to flare back up especially because of her cushions disease. grazing also needs to be monitored.
Quite true. Keeping any horse on a correct diet is always going to be an important part of Equine Management 101, and becomes even more important for horses with Cushings Disease.
whatever makes her most comfortable proper trim or if there is no bulging or dropped sole use a normal set of shoes since u have a chronic founder do not use heartbars.
While I agree that a proper trim is always paramount, the rest of this, is patently bad advise especially since no support to the structures in the caudal part of the hoof has been advised too. Further, heartbars in the hands of a skilled farrier have repeatedly been shown to be quite effective in dealing with the issues and problems related to founder.
but trimming a horse by lowering the heels is only for heel over growth or for club feet. hope u follow this advice
Not quite. There are many reasons to lower heels and contrary to your opinion, helping to achieve derotation of p3 is one of them.

[Red Amor]

Rick
you and Tom are mellowing in your prime

this one leading with its chin and youve barely clipped him under the ear ;)

[Rick Burten]

Rick
you and Tom are mellowing in your prime
Ah, Red my friend. 'Tis perhaps because I'm a bit past my prime. Or, perhaps because the lad is new here I'm willing to give him a bit more rope before I hoist him on his own petard. :D Remember,once upon a time we were young, brash and ignorant too.
this one leading with its chin and youve barely clipped him under the ear ;)
Its only round 1 and sparring with a lighter weight class keeps my attention. For now, in the early rounds, I'm going to dance with (as RushL. might say) half my brain tied behind my back. :p

[Dave Purves]

Speaking of old founder:

41 year old Standard bred with about "18 degrees" rotation.
AP shows a little something missing.

Dave

[Donnie Walker]

[QUOTE=josh burris]u cannot derotate p3 no such thing. do not pay any attention to "derotation" ask ur vet no such thing.)

Josh - by definition you are correct in that the position of P-3 cannot initially be changed within the capsule through a de-rotating process, but its position and relationship with the ground is immediately changed with this procedure, and is considered a necessary step towards rehabilitation, thus being commonly referred to as "de-rotation of the coffin bone".

www.nanric.com and www.equipodiatry.com are two sites that you might enjoy viewing to clear any misunderstandings relative to this issue.

[cowboy_bc]

Ah, Red my friend. 'Tis perhaps because I'm a bit past my prime. Or, perhaps because the lad is new here I'm willing to give him a bit more rope before I hoist him on his own petard. :D Remember,once upon a time we were young, brash and ignorant too.

Its only round 1 and sparring with a lighter weight class keeps my attention. For now, in the early rounds, I'm going to dance with (as RushL. might say) half my brain tied behind my back. :p

Hi all,

Heavy weights and fly weights simply isnt fair anyway but if your not up to it Rick maybe we will have to call on Stompin Tom Stoval, hee hee.

Kevin

[Rick Burten]

Hi all,

Heavy weights and fly weights simply isnt fair anyway but if your not up to it Rick maybe we will have to call on Stompin Tom Stoval, hee hee.

Kevin
Its not that I'm not up to it, I just want to let the balloon get full of hot air before I burst the bubble :p

If Tom decides to (ahem) weigh in on the subject, we all know that that would be like asking an intellectual super heavyweight to 'educate' an intellectual featherweight.

Upon reflection, I'm going to make some popcorn, pop the top on a long neck and sit in a really comfortable chair.

"Cry Havoc!, Set loose the dogs of war......" :D

[Ronald Aalders]

C'mon Tom, go get them Tiger! :p


Ronald Aalders

[cowboy_bc]

Hi all,

Tom has been dukeing it out with Giles so hasn't gotten around to having his say yet.

http://www.gossiping.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=30&mforum=farriergiles

[Gary Hill]

Rick's in the corner looking to make the tag but his tagteam pardner seems to be in a match outside of the main ring! Don't let the popcorn burn! I have got to get me one of them fine books they call a thesaurus, so I can keep up with Tom and Rick! :D

[Jaye Perry]

Rick's in the corner looking to make the tag but his tagteam pardner seems to be in a match outside of the main ring! ....... I have got to get me one of them fine books they call a thesaurus, so I can keep up with Tom and Rick! :D


Been on sabbatical. No thesaurus needed. Just another kid with visions of the title. :rolleyes:

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

josh burris in gray

to rick and tom a few replies. i am familiar with the term jamming up- trimming a horse properly will take care of that, if its level on the bottom, its level at the cornet band. i meant when i talked about trimming out the laminitis, trimming out the seedy toe enough to releave stress on the laminae. i dont care what u say u cannot derotate the p3.

As explained previously, the term has reference to the relationship of P3 to new wall growth, not with pushing the bone back to its former location. Mr. Walker posted the URLs to two very good sources that will help you understand the term and it's somewhat confusing usage.

lowering heels only to keep the hoof from standing upright (clubby). there have been too many instances where i have witnessed horses not recover to any degree because it was severe for them and I've seen recovery for some who haven't had it so severe.

"Lowering heels" is done to re-establish the correct plane of P3 with respect to the ground - which is a fairly important consideration in terms of support and movement.

why would u lower the heels first rattle out of the box-when u "suspect it" (laminitis)?

I dunno about you, but when I suspect laminitis, I put 'em on styrofoam and call a vet.

then wedge the heels back up later?

I don't "wedge them up later."

why do they make lilly pads?

For the styrofoam deprived?

to support the deep flexor.

Nossir, the DDFT doesn't need any "support" - adding mechanical support for the bony column aids in stabilization by negating the pull of the DDFT and the push of the involved hydraulics.

All i'm saying when i say hope for the best is after u stabilize p3 u can do nothing further.

I'm not much on hoping for the best until I, the vet, and the horse's connections have done everything possible.

even after stabilization they can still get worse u can't fix every horse i don't care who u are.

The object of the exercise is to do your damnedest to "fix" every horse you get under; thataway, you don't miss fixing any you could've fixed on account of lack of effort.

and i am an educated and experienced farrier I do know what i am talking about.

I'm just a serious student of farriery who sometimes finds it difficult to contain myself when faced with such a display of expertise.

Come by the shop. I'll be glad to explain it to you in depth - and might let you help build a couple of gates. :)

[Rick Burten]

josh burris in [COLOR=SlateGray]gray

[color=slategray]to rick and tom a few replies. i am familiar with the term jamming up- trimming a horse properly will take care of that, if its level on the bottom, its level at the cornet band. i meant when i talked about trimming out the laminitis, trimming out the seedy toe enough to releave stress on the laminae. i dont care what u say u cannot derotate the p3.

Do laminitic horses always have seedy toe? And, you will need to better define 'level'. As for your contention regarding p3, you are demonstrably incorrect.
why would u lower the heels first rattle out of the box-when u "suspect it" (laminitis)?
It would depend on the individual situation including the results of the radiographs and the conformation of the hoof at that time.
then wedge the heels back up later?
Asked and answered elsewhere.
why do they make lilly pads?
In this day and age, thats a really good question. Perhaps to make money?
For the styrofoam deprived?
ROTFLMAO! Thanks for the (needed) chuckle this morning, Tom.
and i am an educated and experienced farrier I do know what i am talking about.
Me thinks the lad doth protest too much.

[calshoer]

u cannot derotate p3 no such thing. do not pay any attention to "derotation" ask ur vet no such thing.
Absolutely you CAN de-rotate P3. "Derotation" just means trimming off the excess heel of the foot which has grown in response to the rotated bone and change in hoof growth patterns. .
"Derotation" means trimming the excess heel off ,so the outer hoof (the capsule) is again in line where it belongs around the bone.
If you understand the DEFINITION of the term , you would understand it can be done.
Of course sometimes the unrelenting pull of the flexor muscles and tendon dictates that a wedge be placed under the derotated foot for a while, to prevent excess pull on the bone which could cause more rotation, but later the wedge can be reduced or removed as the MUSCLE that is contracted from the pain relaxes again .
If the vet does not understand all this, he/she should probably not be treating foundered horses.
Patty

[Ronald Aalders]

Derotation would be realigning (sorry Dr. O'Grady I still like 'derotation' better) the coffin bone relative to the horizontal. By trimming or placing a shoe on acrylics or using a gooseneck holding up the dorsal hoofwall you can adjust the ground surface of the shoe relative to the foot. Doing this allows you to get the ventral side (bottom) of the coffin bone in a zero or 1 or 2 degree angle with the horizontal. You'll need X rays here obviously.

By doing so you have readjusted the position of the coffin bone that for some reason (a club, laminitis) has come 'undone'.

Obviously this only goes for the position of the coffin bone relative to the ground. The anterior part hoofcapsule will sometimes end up looking even worse than before. Don't worry about that though, nothing a sharp rasp or a grinder can't fix.

By getting P3 in better position relative to the horizontal for one we aim to improve bloodflow in the foot by getting rid of compression by P3 the cir***flex vessels and the coronary artery that gets crushed at the site of the extensor process.



Ronald Aalders

A derotated club.........

[josh burris]

once again i am sorry and regret opening my mouth. you are right i will try to learn from you in the future. I really need to get more familiar. please forgive me.
You base this statement on what information?

I don't know which vet(s) you've talked to, but the ones I talk to and work with, say something entirely different

Quite true. Keeping any horse on a correct diet is always going to be an important part of Equine Management 101, and becomes even more important for horses with Cushings Disease.

While I agree that a proper trim is always paramount, the rest of this, is patently bad advise especially since no support to the structures in the caudal part of the hoof has been advised too. Further, heartbars in the hands of a skilled farrier have repeatedly been shown to be quite effective in dealing with the issues and problems related to founder.

Not quite. There are many reasons to lower heels and contrary to your opinion, helping to achieve derotation of p3 is one of them.