Should I convert my practice to barefoot trimming?

[Dances with Hooves]

I just found out that barefoot trimmers (according to what owners and trimmers are posting to a query on COTH Forum this past week) are getting $50 plus travel for a trim.

One barefoot specialist stated "I charge 75 for a barefoot trim and a bit more if I have to drive over 90 miles."

An owner stated "I am transitioning my guy to barefoot and the barefoot specialist that came out charged $85 for the first evaluation & trim (subsequent trims will be $50 + travel), $15 to pull shoes and $30 for travel (mileage based) for a total of $130."


I charge $31 for a NB trim can easily do 3/hour for a revenue/hour of $93 no inventory expense just wear on rasp.

I get $73 for fronts/trim behind (deduct $8 for pair of NB shoes - couple bucks for nails propane etc) = bout $62/45 minutes. Revenue per hour = $86

I get $111 for 4 shoes - less shoes and incindentals = bout $91/75 minutes = RPH of $73

Couple of things follow. 1.) I ought to raise the shoeing prices so that RPH is the same as the trims. or 2.) Perhaps I should become a barefoot specialist?

The market seems to value the Barefoot Specialist Trim $50 X 3 = $150 RPH.

Thats a 60% increase over my present trimming RPH 75% increase over my front shoe RPH and a 102% increase over my 4 shoe RPH. Plus I can sell the truck and the trailer and work out of my wife's honda civic which gets 42 MPG.

My question is to call my self a barefoot specialist must I ....

1.) Renounce shoeing horses?

or ....

2.) Just shoe them while being barefoot myself?


George

[Nor'easter]

edited****

[Phil Armitage]

George, what is going on? Sounds like your running into barefoot trimmers up your way?

I see it in my area also and it really does not bother me or affect my buisness, besides I don't have the time to worry about it because high demand for shoeing. Most of the people I see doing this are seeking alternative solutions to all kinds of issues. Allot of these horse owners really do not have a full understanding of what is going on and are trying anything to fix things. There are three reasons for shoeing; protection, traction and support and anyone around horses long enough and really use them will find the need for all three or at least one. Snow and ice will be here soon and every year I meet a couple of folks that learn the hard way how important traction is.

Hang in there and you need to raise your prices. :)

[Bill Adams]

George,
Everyone knows that the reason we Farriers are afraid of the barefoot uber alis gang is that they will cut into our income because we make more money shoeing. Just because you use something such as Mathmatics, dosen't prove anything.
My $0.02,
Bill

[Dave Whitaker]

George...... I'm afraid I would get a headache just figuring your clients bills for you........... what's with all your fees ending in 1,3 etc? ....lol

Seriously, though.... don't you find that no matter what else is going on (especially in our area), that if you are doing a good, professional job with the horses' best interest at heart, be it barefoot or shod, that we are all beyond busy and making a decent wage when when it's all said and done? I probably have a fairly high percentage of barefoot horses in my practice compared to a lot of farriers, and encourage it where it is appropriate. It's only a little bonus that it happens to be a higher profit producer that most of my shoeings. The theraputic horses that I attempt to help, (that I love to do), tend to be my highest cost per horse, but usually my lowest profit per horse. It all comes out in the wash.....

I know your were being "funny" with your analysis, and I find that whenever you use the words, never, always, and only when pertaining to horses..... the very next one is going to prove you wrong and humble the hell out of you... I don't think you can ONLY trim or ONLY shoe every horse and honestly say you have what's best for that animal as your main focus. ( Why is it that many barefoot only types CAN'T shoe, not WON'T, and most farrier types Can and do trim barefoot?) Dave

[horseshoeinangel]

I don't think you should convert your practice. I am not schooled on the so called "barefoot trim" but I can't see why it is worth so much more than any trim. Every trim is barefoot. I really don't understand why they are gettting so much more money for basically the same thing. I would just raise your prices possibly not to the extreme that they have but if they have clients then the people in your area are willing to pay that and you deserve that as well. It really sounds like a scam to me. I don't mean to offend any barefoot trimmers but I think you need to be a good trimmer to be a good shoer, so if you are a good shoer I think you are possibly a step ahead of the trimmers. I personally prefer my clients to barefoot if at all possible, but I still see the value in shoes. I believe that we took these animals out of there natural environment and make them do unnatural things, It's only "natural" that we provide them with protection. I think to be a good farrier we need too be great at both and recognize what is best for the horse. Charge what you feel your worth, everyone else is.
I am open to criticism, if there is anything anyone disagrees with please let me know. I am interested in knowing how "barefoot trimming" is different from what I do now. I do see the benefit in being barefoot I just can't say that every horse can have barefeet.

[Vegas2Arizona]

This is my first post on this website so hello. I have often thought and discussed changing my shoeing practice to include this "barefoot" trim. In Vegas there are a couple of people who use this method of practice and do very well for themselves. They charge 55 to 65 for the first consultaion and trim and 45 per trim every 4 weeks after that. At my rate of 35 a trim in Vegas they kill me in the profit margin. But i would love to pull the shoes and ride my Harley to all my accounts with just a nipper, rasp and knife and blast out 10 - 15 of my regular trims a day. 350-500 a day with no supply cost to speak of would be great and take all of a couple hours.

My biggest problem with this type of trimming is that these 2 that i know of preach it as the only way to trim. they trim the same way on every horse i have seen. very sloppy work with horrible angles and even on lame horses. it is like one size fits all work. Now maybe they dont represent the rest of the barefooters but that is what i have seen

[cowboy_bc]

Hi all,

You would have to take one of those pricey home schoolin hoof care courses so you would have one of those fancy accronymes following your name like Chg or Shp or people wouldn't think you were serious. Then you would have to learn to trim sitting on a milking stool all the while talking bull **** like there really is a differance between a farrier trim and super duper barefoot trim with a religious tone and serious look on your face. Also you'd have to ask your self, could you talk badly about farriers, would your friends still drink beer with you, would your family have any respect for you, could you even go out in public without a bag on your head? Not so simple.

Kevin

[Forgewizard]

Cowboy,
How's this as an acronym for "specialized Hoof Trimmer" - SHT :eek: :p

[brian robertson]

"Sufficient Hoofmass Intregal Trim" cost $35, takes 10 min.
Barefoot trim cost $70, takes 10 min. to trim plus 30 min. to measure aura, realign horse's chi and admire horse owner's hindquarters during the jog out afterwards. As you can see the barefoot trim is not time/cost effective. Usually after describing both techniques my clients prefer the $35 trim.

[Bill Adams]

Brian,
Good stuff. A compleet treatmeant would be a "Sufficient Hoofmass Intregal Trim - Healthy Equine Auora Discription." The whole package for that special client.
Bill

[cowboy_bc]

Hi all,

I saw a video where these trimmers spread out a chunk of carpet to trim a horse on and my guess was so they looked professional and that they were big time trimmers. So I'm thinking with the wear and tear and shampooing you'd have to do $70 maybe is a good price but I guess the big question is what colour of carpet might a horse prefer best. The other thing is I have seen pictures where on person holds the hoof while the other does the trimming and this would sure save wear and tear on the old back but what might a PHH or professional hoof holder be paid so yet one more cost.

Kevin

[brian robertson]

thanks Bill for the assist.

[Dances with Hooves]

Looks like one definately would have to forgo shoeing for perfomance according to the AANHCP oath. I was not serious about converting the practice. I was thinking of getting certified by them as I do enjoy doing a natural trim and do try to keep horses barefoot when possible. But I take oaths seriously and would not be able to take this one.

http://www.aanhcp.org/page70.html

[Rick Burten]

Looks like one definately would have to forgo shoeing for perfomance according to the AANHCP oath. I was not serious about converting the practice. I was thinking of getting certified by them as I do enjoy doing a natural trim and do try to keep horses barefoot when possible. But I take oaths seriously and would not be able to take this one.

http://www.aanhcp.org/page70.html

Fanatacism takes many forms. This being but one more example of the extreme and fringe edges of those along the hoofcare continuum.

I have often seen others be referred to practitioners from this organization. I now will be much more vocal in counseling against such action.

[cowboy_bc]

Hi all,

Too funny. The "mischievious" part would get me kicked out. I would imagine that the Strasser oath would be pretty much along those same lines but ending with Heil Hiltrude and a click of the heels

Kevin

[dusters250]

I really don't want to get into this fray, but as one who did study the barefoot trim, throw strasser out the window, but do look at Pete Ramey. Smart A** comments aside, yes you should charge more for a trim, but, if you are going to do a "barefoot trim", it is probably going to be a little different than what you are doing now, but not much. What makes them worth 55 - 75 a trim? Nothing exept those fringe nut jobs that are willing to pay it. One thing they do run into that they deal with that a shod horse doesn't, The sole becomes rock hard and it's hell to trim. Personally, two of my guys can go barefoot unless we are riding in heavy rocks on a regular basis, the other needs shoes. So I am on both sides of the fence and see both sides. It's just too bad both sides have to throw rocks.

[Joey Aczon]

Hey George, you know what would work to fit yourself into this nieche?

Have your everyday NB trim set at your $35, and a second trim under the "natural hoofcare trim" banner and charge $50 for it, then just roll the hoofwall at the toe a little more. That way it will be a "different" trim, just not in anyway that will really effect the structure itself.

That way when you show up to your "natrual" clients you can say you are just in disguise and trying to convert the masses from the inside.

You could build a name as a "stealth trimmer"

[Gary Hill]

Ya know something? Six weeks out makes the best of trims look bad due to envionment and diet! I can't convince my clients I need to come back in three weeks and then maybe make a nipper run or rasp the walls round? My clients want the most out of the trims and shoe jobs! "7 or 8 weeks and your back already?" I really need to find out the flavor of Kool-Aid that works on these people and get them to drink it so I can make more money with less work! :cool:

[JWHORSESHOEING]

Heaven forbid you don't use the nipper and just rasp around. All you hear is boy you sure didn't take much off I think we can go 12 weeks next time.

[horseshoer123]

Why can't you do both? That's what my husband does, he's a farrier who advocates the benefits of barefoot, but also realizes barefoots not for every horse or every horse owner. We have clients that are both for and against shoes and other that don't care. I've gotten my husbands name and number on a number of the barefoot websites and his business cards tout the fact that he's a NB certified barefoot trimmer. We also don't charge the outrageous trimming prices the barefoot only trimmers do. We gladly do some of the barefooter horse's on a 4 week schedule it that's what they want.

We were at a barn a few months ago and there was a barefoot trimmer there, we introduced ourselves and she said she's heard of my husband and wanted some of his business cards for clients who wanted shoes, she said if the want shoes, I'd at least like to refer them to someone who's going to do it right, so I guess there not all bad.

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Why can't you do both? . I took it that the OP was posting with tongue in cheek and a healthy pinch of sarcasm
That's what my husband does, he's a farrier who advocates the benefits of barefoot, but also realizes barefoots not for every horse or every horse owner. Isn't that just a farrier?? :confused: :rolleyes:

Is Phil a girl's name?? Or are you Phillis?

[Bill Adams]

One day last summer when my truck was in the shop I did fifteen trims off the back of my Harley. Buy far the most profetable day, easy work, over $500 income, crusing the Pacific North Coast at 50 MPG. I came this close to converting.
Bill

[Jim Sweeney]

I personally found that the most money can be made putting shoes back on all the lame barefoot horses. Its pretty steady work.

[matryoshka]

Their prices are so high because they use magic tools, blessed by the barefoot gurus. Plus, magic markers are expensive! PT Barnum would have been proud.

George, I honestly think the AANHCP (or whatever) would be better off hiring you to mentor their applicants rather than you paying to be mentored by their people. I've not been impressed by the trims I've seen from some of their certified trimmers, and I was surprised at the lack of knowledge by the trimmer I met who was going through their program. He was already making money as a "natural trimmer," but didn't even know how to hold the knife properly. It was scary.

Package your own trim, come up with a catchy name, develop a certification program, and make people pay through the nose to learn it. That's where you can make your money.

I say this, but I'm going to a Pete Ramey clinic this summer. May as well learn what he's teaching from the man himself.

[Rick Burten]

Package your own trim, come up with a catchy name, develop a certification program, and make people pay through the nose to learn it. That's where you can make your money.
I think its time to re-start the International Institute of Holistic Horsehoeing and Hoofcare. Due to other business involvements, I had shuttered the doors and windows of that hallowed institution. During its time of operation, four of its students went on to attain the most coveted degree, that of "HHHP"(Holistic Horseshoeing and Hoofcare Provider aka H3P1). Several had completed their classroom requirements and were interning as "HHHPP"(Holistic Horseshoeing and Hoofcare Provisional Providers H3P2). Sadly, before these individuals could complete their training, the Institute was shuttered. Each was offered a full refund but all elected to remain HHHPP's until such time as the Institute re-opened its doors and their coursework could be completed.

Graduating students were/are required to write a dissertation on why Raskolnikov came to long for redemption and how that relates to the current group of BUAtista Gurus.

Other required reading includes, "The Stranger" by Albert Camus; "Stranger in a Strange Land", R. Heinlein; The complete works of Louis L'Amor, "Atlas Shrugged" A. Rand; "Leatherstocking Tales", JFCooper; "The Way Things Ought To Be" R. Limbaugh; "The Far Side" G. Larson;"The Pursuit of Happiness and Other Sobering Thoughts", GF Will.

Rick

[Dances with Hooves]

Package your own trim, come up with a catchy name, develop a certification program, and make people pay through the nose to learn it. That's where you can make your money.


I've been kicking around ideas. I've rejected HIT (high income trim) as it sounds too mercenary and not touchy feeley enough.

Pretty much settled on a name and program and am leaning towards rolling out the FBT this summer. FBT stands for "Faith Based Trim". The trimmers will be instructed in how to form the owner and friends into a non-denominational meditation circle for chanting to open the group mind to recieve trim guidance from the higher power and (if all in the group are truely open and have the correct positive energy) from the horse himself. Once the guidance has been recieved the 12 steps of the FBT trim can commence.

Step 1. Clean the foot
Step 2. locate the live sole
Step 3. Diagram the foot
Step 4 trim hoofwall to just above live sole at heels
step 5 Trim hoofwall to just above sole plane at toe
step 6 Level the foot
step 7 relieve the quarters
step 8 rocker the toe
step 9 begin the "roll of faith" (new name for mustang roll) with foot still between knees
step 10 bring foot forward to toe stand and dress flare
step 11 complete the "roll of faith" on toe stand
step 12 reconvene the meditation circle for post trimming guidence to determine if the horse is satisfied with trim.

For those who cannot due to health reasons assume the standard farrier positions kneeling benches will be provided for them to kneel under the horse.

I think this should work pretty well. Suggestions on the FBT are welcome.

[George Geist]

Hey George,
Sounds like a good idea. One thing I that has not escaped my notice however is that the BLF is composed of a membership almost exclusively female.

Can any of our fine lady horseshoers out there tell me why this is?
George

[horseshoer123]

Thomas,
My name's Phyllis, my husbands is Phil.

[matryoshka]

George, don't forget to design your own tools, pads, and boots to market. You can make people pay extra to learn how to use them properly. Perhaps include incense candles and kool aid?

Oh, and when the barefoot horses don't all go sound, you can always say the the trimmer has obviously not applied the FBT properly, that they need to attend a remedial clinic to learn whatever they are missing. Failing that, 2 to 4 20-minute walks a day on pavement should be instituted (for the horse). Perhaps with expensive pads and custom boots to stimulate improvement in the DC. Then, of course, you need to market your own soaking solution that can cure everything from canker to navicular disease. :D

Don't forget to formulate your own reason why shoes are evil. That's important, because people need a common enemy in order to feel united.

[beslagsmed]

Don't forget in your program to include the instructional DVDs or Vidios so those who don't want to travel to your clinic can get "certified" by mail. This will greatly add to your income as when the "certified by mail" guys fail, then they can pay for the class as well. Thus you get them to pay double.

Also correct me if I am wrong, but I though we all were barefoot trimmers? I don't know any farrier who trims a foot with the shoes on.

Mikel

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Thomas,
My name's Phyllis, my husbands is Phil. And you're both farriers? Talk about confusing and keeping it in the family :rolleyes: Though I guess it makes it easier for friends and customers - just shout Phil and one of you will reply and turn up! :D

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

For those who cannot due to health reasons assume the standard farrier positions kneeling benches will be provided for them to kneel under the horse.

I think this should work pretty well. Suggestions on the FBT are welcome. Fantastic business proposition George and I'm prepared to come in with financial backing - I'm convinced you are on to a winner.

I particularly liked the roll of faith :D

Might I also suggest that a small red velvet cushion be provided for your customer to kneel on so they can chant the mantra and worship at your feet as you perform miracles on their horse.

A range of wax doll models of Tom Stovall, Rick Burten et al, wearing chaps and with a bare butt could also be provided for the customers to stick silver plated pins in as they curse the scourge of the devil farriers

You could sell the aforementioned range of bare butted farrier dolls for $100 a time as limited edition collection sets.

[tbloomer]

A few years ago I had a prospective customer call me because she was paying $100 to have her horse trimmed and heard that I was charging $30 for trims at that time.

I told her that I would be happy to trim her horse for $100, but I would NOT do the job for $30. Since whe had already established that it took a $100 trim to maintain her horse, I was ethically required not to reduce the quality of care her horse was receiving.

I will never knowingly take business away from another hoof care provider based on a lower price. One time I walked out on a customer after shoeing one of her horses because she told me that I was twice as good as her previous farrier and only charged half as much. I wasn't about to do the rest of the barn knowing that she switched to me for my prices. Sooner or later somebody would come along and under cut ME. I'm never going to allow myself to be treated like a commodity.

I also have difficulty respecting a farrier who has more skill and experience than me, but takes away one of my accounts with a lower price. I consider that practice an insult to the profession.

[tbloomer]

Hey George,
Sounds like a good idea. One thing I that has not escaped my notice however is that the BLF is composed of a membership almost exclusively female.

Can any of our fine lady horseshoers out there tell me why this is?
GeorgeThe high priests are almost exclusively male. Is there another exception to that demographic besides Dr. Hiltrud? Even Oprah defers to Dr. Phil . . . seems the whole movement goes against women's equality. Whazzup wid dat?

[Bill Adams]

Tom,
I noticed the same thing with the men running the show. There is a article in one of the horse mags this month about improveing horse riding skills through yoga. All women.
George S,
I have employed "the laying on of hands" for years for horses that want to act up a bit.
I like to get new age types and explain how I will bind my spirit with that of the horse and atain a union of conchonceness. If per chance we are not able to become as one, I just beat the ***** outa them.
Bill

[horseshoer123]

Thomas,
My husbands a farrier, I'm not, although about 4 years ago he was kicked by a yearling mustang, broke 3 ribs and bruised his kidney, at the time his brother had been working with him (thinking about being a farrier also), so after 1 week off the three of us went back to work, my husband would sit and supervise, I did everything but nail on a shoe and we did that for about 6 weeks until he was ready to go back to work, I actually continued helping him after his brother quit and though about going to farrier school, but then got tired of working so hard everyday. I do alot of the business end of running the business now and always go with him to clinic's and such.

[George Geist]

Tom B,
Besides the good Dr Hiltrud, we also have our own dear Gwen and a few others I can't seem to think of right now.

Good on you for your good business practices. I wish everybody did that.
George

[matryoshka]

I'll hazard a guess as to why the trimming followers seem to mostly be female.

It may have to do with physical limitations, both real and perceived. I first thought to go into farrier work back in the 80's. A few years out of college and hating my job, mind you. At that point I had only met one female farrier, and she did an awesome job. She was also rather brawny for a woman. She was the first farrier I ever saw who made sure the breakover was appropriate for the horse, rather than following the toe forward. I didn't realize this at the time, but looking back and remembering her work, I know this now. She had moved out of the area, and I was hunting for a good farrier. I finally found one, but he thought the horses should have long toes, and that is what they got.

Anyway, I was longing for a change, and it occurred to me that I'd love to do farrier work--it had always fascinated me. I was worried that I couldn't handle the physical aspects of the job, though. I'm about 5'8" tall, have a small frame, and am slender. So I didn't know if I could hold up under the work load. Also, I had to face going to farrier school, which would no doubt have been all male (or so I thought) and endure yet another curriculum where I was the only female around. I decided to stay where I drew a steady paycheck rather than try a field where I didn't even know if I could physically handle the job.

Then, at 40, I had found another female farrier who did an excellent job on my horses. She had improved the problems that the horses had been having as a result of years of overly long toes, they were moving great, no more seedy toe, etc. Then she cut back on her business so she could devote more time to breeding horses. At this point, I felt like I was physically up to the challenge of trimming, not shoeing. All my horses were barefoot. No big deal. I took a short farrier course and researched on my own, just planning to trim my own horses.

I have a number of reasons for not wanting to shoe. One is that I have an aversion to driving nails. I did so in class and actually found it easy. But each time I'm faced with a shoe to nail, I hate it. Another is that shoeing is much more physically demanding than trimming. The third reason is that I now have kids, and I think the likelihood of getting hurt while shoeing is greater than while trimming. I can see myself holding a foot, nail in one hand, hammer in the other, driving the nails toward my legs. I'm a clutz on a good day. I should be nowhere near a hoof, shoe, hammer, and nails. Self preservation comes into play here.

I'm guessing that other women have had similar thoughts. Some women are tougher/stronger than others and more willing to take on the physical risks and demands of shoeing. Before I had kids I wasn't worried about getting hurt. I get hurt plenty just from the occasional problems that arise when dealing with large animals, and I've had my fair share of kicks and stomped feet since I've been trimming for other people.

I couldn't say why a large proportion of the gurus are male. As George G. said, there are femal gurus out there and things will change over time.

What I can't explain is why so many people who choose to only trim have to bash shoes and farriers. That makes no sense to me. It seems to take on religeous proportions, like the Parelli fanatics. They can't tell when their program isn't working. ****.

[JWHORSESHOEING]

Don't forget in your program to include the instructional DVDs or Vidios so those who don't want to travel to your clinic can get "certified" by mail. This will greatly add to your income as when the "certified by mail" guys fail, then they can pay for the class as well. Thus you get them to pay double.

Also correct me if I am wrong, but I though we all were barefoot trimmers? I don't know any farrier who trims a foot with the shoes on.

Mikel


A few years ago I picked up a new client. Their farrier moved away. They asked if I could put the shoes back on they had taken off last year. I asked them to see the shoes. They brought out four shoes with about an inch of hoof attached to each one. I asked them did the last guy just trim the foot with the shoes still on? They said " thats the way he always took the shoes off for the winter" He would just trim the foot with the shoe still on. Sure enough when I went to trim the foot there were nails in each one that had been cut off.

That has got to be hard on your nippers.

[dusters250]

Matryoshka, I'm kinda new here, I barefoot trim my own and will be moving into shoeing, why? my farrier will be quiting soon. A young gal, I really like her, does a great job, she's 5'6 or so. It's nice to see something other than the age old, have to be a burly guy to shoe horses thing.

[beslagsmed]

A few years ago I picked up a new client. Their farrier moved away. They asked if I could put the shoes back on they had taken off last year. I asked them to see the shoes. They brought out four shoes with about an inch of hoof attached to each one. I asked them did the last guy just trim the foot with the shoes still on? They said " thats the way he always took the shoes off for the winter" He would just trim the foot with the shoe still on. Sure enough when I went to trim the foot there were nails in each one that had been cut off.

That has got to be hard on your nippers.

I am here with lowered head and concede - maybe some do.

Mikel

[Anvil150]

Didn't Pat Parelli start all that barefoot trim stuff :confused:

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Heck I think you're right after all didn't he invent horse training?

And look: there's a parelli trained horse with its carrot stick and boots :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/parellihorse.jpg

[mwmyersdvm]

If a lawyer were to peruse this do***ent he would say that it does not preclude the oath taker from shoeing, it simply says that he must not shoe a horse badly. None of us maliciously places shoes on a horse to "obstruct its gait, damage the hoof mechanism, etc." so go for it,George.

[balazsborbely]

I think its time to re-start the International Institute of Holistic Horsehoeing and Hoofcare. Due to other business involvements, I had shuttered the doors and windows of that hallowed institution. During its time of operation, four of its students went on to attain the most coveted degree, that of "HHHP"(Holistic Horseshoeing and Hoofcare Provider aka H3P1). Several had completed their classroom requirements and were interning as "HHHPP"(Holistic Horseshoeing and Hoofcare Provisional Providers H3P2). Sadly, before these individuals could complete their training, the Institute was shuttered. Each was offered a full refund but all elected to remain HHHPP's until such time as the Institute re-opened its doors and their coursework could be completed.

Graduating students were/are required to write a dissertation on why Raskolnikov came to long for redemption and how that relates to the current group of BUAtista Gurus.

Other required reading includes, "The Stranger" by Albert Camus; "Stranger in a Strange Land", R. Heinlein; The complete works of Louis L'Amor, "Atlas Shrugged" A. Rand; "Leatherstocking Tales", JFCooper; "The Way Things Ought To Be" R. Limbaugh; "The Far Side" G. Larson;"The Pursuit of Happiness and Other Sobering Thoughts", GF Will.

Rick
Can Atlas shrugged be substituted by the Fountainhead?
Balazs