Yearling filly still lame. Frustrated owner

[kmkpaints]

I posted for help with this yearling filly earlier this year... after spending almost two months barefoot with 100% turnout she is no better. She continues to walk almost tippy toed to take pressure off her heels and is still lame. 100% lame. The only relief she gets is when we pad and wedge her.

I did put glue on shoes as suggested and she was better but as her hoof grew she became lame again.

Removed those shoes after 7 weeks, still lame. Proceeded to wedge with leather pad and she was sound except on sharp turns.

Took shoes off at the suggestion of some , turned her out and the poor thing cant hardly walk!

I must say, I break down in tears when I see her like this. I have half the people telling me to wedge(vets and farriers) the other half saying to leave her barefoot.

Finally yesterday I could take it no longer and we did put a light flat steel racing plate on her. At least she can walk... I honestly dont know where to turn.

We are in Nebraska so if anyone knows someone here that could help her please email me. My new farrier is trying what she knows...but I just dont know what is right anymore... I did take photos yesterday. We have more expansion than we did but I cant stand to see her hurting so bad... She isnt much better with the racing plates on but is a little better.

I dont want to "tell" my farrier what to do ...because after all she is the one who is certified. I cant afford to fly anyone in but if someone knows someone in Nebraska that can help me I am willing to try almost anything.....

Here are her latest photos... as I said, right after this we did put a light racing plate on her. Only using two nails in the front, and setting them wide. No pad. She had minimal relief but at least had some and seemed to be walking flat instead of up on her toes.

Thanks in advance for any help or further advice you can give. I also included a photo of her so you can see her conformation.

I dont know how much more of this I can make her go through.... it just doesnt seem fair to her.

http://www.kmkpainthorses.com/suzyfeet.htm

Edited to add that the photos showed her after being barefoot for almost two months and was appx 4 weeks from her last trim.



Lori Blatter

[Jeanie Connors]

Hi Lori, I'm sorry you are still having trouble with the filly. I know it's hard to see them hurt :( .

Two months is a long time to be lame, though not a lot of time for the hoof to heal from whatever is hurting it. I can't give you any advice about either keeping her bare or shoeing her, but I do recommend making a decision and seeing it through for a while (again, I know that's hard to do if she continues to be in pain).

I did see a few things in your photos, though. Both of those sole shots, even through the dirt/manure, look like your filly has severely bruised soles. The second sole shot shows a very clear red white line (you have the outer, dark colored wall, then the inner yellowy colored (unpigmented) wall, then the red line, which is actually the lamina). What is this filly eating? Has she had x-rays at all? The soles also look very flat to me. All of this suggests getting x-rays as soon as possible, if you can, and removing grain from her diet as well as alfalfa. I would feed her only a grass hay mix right now until you can rule out laminitis.

I advocate going barefoot, of course, so I personally would recommend keeping those young feet bare, changing her diet, and looking into buying some boots for her, to give those feet some padding and get her walking heel first again to help her back on the road to healthy feet. I'm sorry I don't know of anyone specific in Nebraska, but I hope this helps a little at least, and I do wish you luck in getting her straightened out and sound.

[caballus]

Overall and from the side views the hooves don't look too bad. From the solar view it is evident that there is a whole lot of sole ... false sole. You can see the outline of the excess, impacted sole. That, in itself, can cause lameness. It prevents the hoof from proper functioning acting much like scar tissue with little stretch or give. The frog crevices are very deep ... the P3 is nicely tucked up in the hoof capsule. I don't normally touch the soles but with hooves like this I would take a serious look at getting rid of that nasty stuff as soon as possible. The solar views are also showing some thrush that needs to be treated. A correct trim will help with that.

Also, from the front views, its evident that medially/laterally the hooves are imbalanced. RF is longer walled on the inside; LF is longer walled on the outside. This is caused from the angle of the trim - IOW, how the trimmer holds the rasp while rasping. One can clearly see that the bony column is "off center" going down into the hooves.

My guess is that your horse is sore from imbalanced hooves as well as that impacted sole. A correct trim for these hooves just might do wonders for her.

--Gwen

[kmkpaints]

Thank you for understanding Jeanne ...and not yelling at me for putting the flat shoes on... The only reason I decided to do that was because I thought it was better than leaving her totally lame and not as bad as wedging her up (which I have decided I will NOT do until nothing else works)

I know two months isnt very long and we have had some positive things happen, she has increased in hoof size and expanded...we have SOME heel growing back where it is supposed to...

I know you recommend barefoot but if we leave the steel shoes on, without any nails behind and give her 100% turnout will her foot still expand? Or will that completely ruin what we were trying to do?(Expansion)

I had xrays when she first became lame and I posted them here.... the vet said her angles were off and we needed to wedge her. The wedges did work for the most part (except they did NOT help her so much when turning sharp, she was still noticeably off.) I pulled them when I realized they were hampering any heel growth at all. I do see some positive heel growing down instead of forward.. IS it possible the bruising is because she has been walking so off balance, trying to keep weight off the back of her hoof?

She was playing tonight a little (less than 24 hours after shoeing her) out in her run... she had some bute , but we had been buting her prior with no real relief to her. I guess I felt better because she was walking and rearing and bucking a little for the first time in a while...but sure dont want these shoes to undo anything we have gained.

I wish there was a clear cut answer :( But I guess, like humans there isnt. I really do want what is best for her.

Since the ground has softened back up I put her back out 24/7 again (and because she was walking better with the shoes on today) and will leave her out.

As far as diet, farriers formula (has been on it for 2 months religiously) 1 1/2 flakes alfalfa, 3# oats and 1# moormans mintrate (all twice a day except for the farriers formula) Because she is outside she needs some extra as it is cold here...

Since you answered me I will ask you.. even tho you believe that barefoot is best , is it possible to continue expansion with these shoes on? She is moving more so is it possible with more movement we will get healthier hoof even with a shoe on? My farrier did NOT set those back nails...and also set the shoe wider.. If you had to have a shoe on would that be a reasonable thing to do?

I adore my new farrier and I believe she is doing what she feels is best. I guess I am looking for reassurance.

Lori

[kmkpaints]

My guess is that your horse is sore from imbalanced hooves as well as that impacted sole. A correct trim for these hooves just might do wonders for her.

I thought she looked unbalanced also when I looked at the photos. How could a person politely bring this up to their farrier?

The sole.... My old farrier (the one I think "may" have started this problem) took sole out right away..my new farrier doesnt like to touch it at all.. lol..

I am so confused.. Sometimes it is hard to live in a rural area....

Being as we just put the racing plates on her last night, should I possibly, in four weeks when it is time to trim, lightly mention the filly looks a little longer on one side and that the sole may need cleaned out? How could I bring this up without insulting her job?

I was so thrilled to see that she was playing a little tonight (less than 24 hours after the light racing plates were put on) that your theory may be close to correct...because with your theory, the shoes would bring those soles up off the ground and reduce the push they are causing??? ( I am sure that is not the right term but hope it made sense)

Someone else told me that her bars are crushed???? that they need cleaned out?

Like I said, I am just trying to get a whole bunch of opinions and then try my best and pray I go the right direction... I am very concerned this shoe will mess up the expansion we were acheiving with her barefoot but I simply could not watch her gimp around anymore :((

And again, thank you everyone for being kind and not jumping on me. I really do want her well and everything I have done I have done because I care about her and am trying to help her..... :)

Lori

[kmkpaints]

the P3 is nicely tucked up in the hoof capsule

Gwen, would you mind explaining what the P3 is and what you mean by that?

Also can I treat her for the thrush with something now? I will have to look but she put the racing plates on her last night and may have cut that out...maybe will take some pics tomorrow and post so you all can see what was done.

I really like my farrier so want to be careful when I suggest things... if you all have any hints on how I can bring it up to her , I would very much appreciate it.

Lori

[Roy Amaral CJF]

I'm far from being part of the Barefoot only cult, but I don't like shoeing these young horses either. Most of the time a bead of "Superfast" will work just as well as a shoe.

[kmkpaints]

I agree...I not only dont like the thought of putting shoes on them (and yes I show halter but wouldnt have ever put them on her if she had been sound) but I would rather pay for a trim only.. :)

Are you saying to basically create a little extra where the shoe would be with that product? My farrier said she had just attended a seminar where they learned more about the equithane etc...
Lori

[Rick Burten]

I agree with Gwen. There is too much retained sole. Additionally, looking at the front view of the hooves, they look out of balance to me. Then when looking at the last picture , that is confirmed. The wall is trimmed quite unevenly.

Nailing shoes on this horse is really contra indicated. Those feet are still doing a lot of growing and I can't see where shoes at this time are going to be of value.

Has the horse had a full lameness evaluation and diagnosis?

My feeling is that when you get the feet correctly trimmed and balanced and get this horse out and moving on firm ground, things will start to improve. Also, you cannot ignore the possibility that she is hurting because she is in "halter" shape/weight and the problem may be in the joints or the fact that her bones may be growing faster then the tendon's and ligament's ability to keep up.

My suggestion is that you also strip some of the weight off, have her hay analyzed , reduce her grain load, get her outside and moving, and get her feet properly attended to .

[Ronald Aalders]

I don't know if it's any help in this case, I'ld like to see a bit more to get a better idea, but on foot sore horses like this, (if that's what it is) is a shoe the horse with a leather pad. (I did notice a pic that showed a reddish line where P3 would be...........)

No this would not be a pad ánd a shoe, just the leather pad. Mustad makes a nail called PG, a nail made for a very specific shoe used in standard bred shoeing a lot. It's a normal nail with a fully flat head like a roof nail would have. It's a great nail to just slap a piece of leather on a foot.

It does wonders in situations where you don't want to shoe.


Ronald Aalders

[kmkpaints]

Thanks so much everyone. I will do my best to explain to my farrier that she is out of balance (without offending her) and I will look into those pads today.

She is outside, haired up being fed maintenence rations.... She is not being fit on.(That was a pic from this summer)

She had a lameness exam this spring when this happened. They are the ones that suggested wedges... I feel the wedges were only a bandaid, and while making her feel way better, they only compounded the problem.

Again, if anyone can recommend someone in Nebraska to get this filly balanced I would be more than happy to call them.

Thanks
Lori

[Dave Purves]

As far as diet, farriers formula (has been on it for 2 months religiously) 1 1/2 flakes alfalfa, 3# oats and 1# moormans mintrate (all twice a day except for the farriers formula) Because she is outside she needs some extra as it is cold here...

.

Lori

So you're feeding her, 3 flakes of alfalfa, 6 pounds of oats, and 2 pounds of mormans per day? Sounds like overload to me, especially if she's not being worked, and is turned out most of the day. Cut back the feed, balance the feet and you'll see a huge improvement.
jmo
Dave

[kmkpaints]

So you're feeding her, 3 flakes of alfalfa, 6 pounds of oats, and 2 pounds of mormans per day? Sounds like overload to me, especially if she's not being worked, and is turned out most of the day. Cut back the feed, balance the feet and you'll see a huge improvement.
jmo
Dave

Yes that is correct.... and she is outside in a run during the day and spending every night in the sand arena(60X60). I am not working her at all. The only time I brought her in was during the storm last week, and the ground was frozen from the wet snow. She is back outside now. You cannot see ribs but there is no crease in her back. For the most part she has had 24/7 turnout for the last two months as suggested here.

Lori

[calshoer]

I suggest you get some fresh Xrays before you do anything else. The lateral views must be taken with BOTH feet up on equal height blocks and the filly standing square. This will allow a true lateral view to assess the coffin joint alignment. I am fairly sure you are going to find she has a "broken back" coffin joint in the left front due to a negative plane coffin bone, and maybe in the right,too. I see the 'red flag' bulge in the center of the hoofwall on the front of the left foot. I am guesing she is more lame on the Left?(and maybe turning to the left? ) From coffin joint pain.
As well the vet needs to evaluate the condition of her coffin bones, navicular bones, and the joints to see if there is any permanent damage and to better give you a long term prognosis for soundness. If there is coffin bone damage at the solar margin, or of the coffin joint is broken back in its alignment, she will NOT be a candidate for barefoot.
Also, If she has been suffering from a broken back coffin joint angle, the impar ligament or the suspensory ligament of the navicular bone (or both) could be damaged and they can heal, but never will if the imbalance /misalignment is left uncorrected . And sometimes the only way to correct that is with a supportive wedge shoe package, NOT barefoot if she lacks the internal hoof cartilage to keep her own bones aligned.

If you think about it, she already told you she needs a wedge by her clinical response to the shoes. The horse themselves will tell you a lot. I do not believe that healing of any part is occuring while a horse is more uncomfortable.

I agree that I would not nail on metal shoes. but I would use the plastic package such as a Equiflex with a wedge pad stacked on. Two nails on each side ahead of the widest part of the foot is NOT going to restrict her hoof growth at all. It could even be put on with one nail on each toe corner and the rest glued. AS well the movement of the plastic shoes on the sole corium stimulates sole growth and will help strengthen the foot. The wedge pad could be easily screwed to the bottom of the plastic shoe and made a little smaller around than the plastic shoe, to ease breakover in all directions.

Don't listen to the barefooters. Some man made hoof problems (over feeding, environmental management, breeding choices) need man made help to heal better. Even in a young horse.
Patty

[kmkpaints]

I will make another Appt for xrays this week. I will also go look at the equiflex shoes that you are talking about.

I will post the xrays here if anyone would like to see them.


Thank you
Lori

[the_unicorn]

I just looked at the photo's of the feet, I assume they are taken at the same time. I am surprised to see two styles of feet in the same set of shots.

I also think the horse has spent a lot of time in stables in the past having just worked on a horse with similar feet, that does not get of out a 35 foot stable at all.

From looking at the lateral shot the horse appears to have a good heel length, but when looking at the solar shots there is a large cavitiy between the hoof and the ground. It looks like she has bruising in the white line at the toe, this is because she is throwing her weight forward off her heels. This is damaging the major blood vessel running around the tip of P3 (Coffin Bone).

This means she is walking on her bars pushing them up into to the feet, it is very painful for a horse and they knuckle over and try and walk soley on their toes. This is why wedges should never be used, it makes the horse comfortable but compounds the problem, especially in a young horse you will wear the tip of the P3 if you raise her heels at all. The toe walking and inflexible back half of the sole is why the frog is poorly developed she is just not using her heels correctly.

There looks like a negative coffin bone but that seems to be more from junk build up in the toe not bone position. I expect the X-Rays to show a level or slightly elevelated heel of the coffin bone.

You need to get a good barefoot trimmer or farrier who understands the caudal part of the hoof, in to make the inside of the foot look like what the outside is saying it is.

Another indicator that this horse has pushed the bars back into her foot is the heel shot shows the walls are inside the vertical. This tells me the inside of the foot is higher than the outside says it should be. A third indicator that the horses problem is in the bars is the fullness of the space between the heel bulbs, though this is hard to tell from the lighting and can vary from breed to breed.

If your trimmer gets it right the horse will be sore immediately after the trim due to the change in pressure inside the foot. It takes a few days for the horse to start using their heels again and the damage wont heal overnight.

You can't do this with shoes on as the heel has to flex correctly to help heal the inside of the hoof.

I did something similar for a shod horse, he was going to a barefoot home and the old owner removed the shoes without thinking. The horse was walking on the inside of his foot only. It took 6 days after trimming to settle down but he was so sore with the shoes on I had sorted of expected that. He was so happy afterwards he started a 4000km truck ride across the country on the seventh day.

Regards
Darren Robertson, CHG

[kmkpaints]

Yes both shots were taken at the same time. Same horse.

If I can find the photos we took her feet when I posted earlier this spring I will post them for comparison.

She is walking on her toe, although I admit she is better (altho not alot) with the flat light shoes on (nailed only with two nails ahead of the widest part)

I am calling in the morning to make an appt with a different vet than saw her the first time.

I want you ALL to know that I appreciate each and every bit of input that you are giving and am putting consideration into it all. Again, if ANYONE knows of a competent farrier in the Nebraska region let me know! Anyone you can recommend?

I can only hope that after I read all everyone has to offer that I make the right decision for her. For now , until more xrays I am going to leave her as is, outside in the run during the day, inside the sand arena at night.

Also, if anyone has the link to the plastic shoes I would love to have it (privately if need be)

Edited to add, when I got this filly at appx 8 months of age she had come from owners that gave VERY little turnout. I suspect that this is where the problem started.

Lori

[kmkpaints]

Update... Spent the morning at the sports medicine vet in Grand Island...

Upon arriving we went over her case history and previous clinic visit.
Upon removing her from the trailer the Dr's first thought was that she had stress foundered. Previous notes indicated thin soled and needing heel support. Vet noted Digital pulse in both front feet along with heat...

Said we would start from scratch.
1st step we blocked ONLY her heel this time. Last time we blocked her entire foot. She showed much improvement with a heel block - we marked it as 70% improvement. Next we blocked entire foot with 100% soundness being the result.He said this was important because we made sure we ruled out shoulder or knee issues.

Next step was to take the xrays. We did and it shows increased sole from previous xrays, but still thin soled(in his opinion)

Recommendation: 3 degree wedge,heel support, orthotics?? He showed me a soft frog support system that they have started using.. He told me that when we gained soundness from the wedge shoes before, she was telling us that things were better...my mistake was when she didnt respond 100% , instead of looking at tweaking the shoes ,that I just pulled them off. This vets opinion is that this mare will be ruined(possible founder or unfixable joint damage) if we dont get these joints inline immediately, and he feels that wedge shoes w/heel supportand sole support(but not too much sole support since she gets sore from that too) is the only way to achieve this. He said it may be a few times before we get the formula exactly
right, but that ,in his opinion, this all started when the farrier took away the heel she did have(along with possibly some of her sole),and she grew and got heavier and so the problem has just gotton worse.

Anyway, I thought I would share the information that I received, along with the xrays. After reading everything here, and being given xrays and being explained to how we are stressing her, I believe(hope) that this is the correct way to go.

A special thank you to Calshoer who kicked me in the buns to get more xrays.When he told me she had digital pulse the tears started and I feared the worst. At least now we know. The vet feels this girl has a good chance of being sound, if I do what he is suggesting. He told me that this particular horse is not a candidate to go barefoot. I discussed this option AT LENGTH with him. I want you all to know that the advice you gave was taken to heart and it meant the world to me to have a place to go for ideas and support.

I hope the xrays can be beneficial to others here, to help them learn, (along with photos of her hooves) if you need any other photos let me know and I will take them for you. I plan on leaving her page up and tracking her progress as we go. :)

Here is the page with her info and the xrays. I found it especially beneficial that the vet took photos of her on a wedge also, so I could understand the process and what she needed and why. I wish the other vets had done this.

Any other suggestions or comments please feel free to post! Even if you dont agree with my vet! I dont believe there is any one right answer for all horses. Maybe someone else is going through this and it can help someone else before they go through all I have went through.

http://www.kmkpainthorses.com/suzyfeet.htm

[kanderso]

....I am fairly sure you are going to find she has a "broken back" coffin joint in the left front due to a negative plane coffin bone, and maybe in the right,too. I see the 'red flag' bulge in the center of the hoofwall on the front of the left foot...... Patty

Looks like you got that right (judging by what I see in the xrays).

Would you mark up a photo of the "red flag" bulge you're seeing in the center of the hoofwall for me? I'm not sure what I'm looking for?

Thanks,

KRis

[calshoer]

I defined the area of the bulge that indicates negative plane coffin bone. I would imagimne most of the lameness is in the impar ligament (connects the bottom of the navicular bone to the coffin bone) and/or the coffin joint. As well there is something on the Xrays of the LF I want you to ask your vet about ,but won't discuss it here publicly since I am not a vetrinarian. I will Email you. Also, you can add wedge with frog support and not get her sore if you apply it in the very rear part of the frog only.. the rear third of the frog. I use thick bar wedge pads with Equipack under just the bar on lots of these and they go well in them.
Patty

[Rick Burten]

Hey! Wait a minute. that foot isn't broken back with a negative plane coffin bone. To the contrary, it is a classic example of the harmonic curve and leaf spring apparatus in action!

For those who might now be confused, the harmonic curve and leaf spring apparatus are elements that were first discovered and brought to the equine world's attention by one F. Strasser. Prior to their discovery, these types of feet and bone malalignment were referred to as "broken back " and negative plane coffin bones. Due to the extensive research conducted by F. Strasser, we now know that these things are a good thing. I as well as the rest of you(stasser advocates, admireres, adherernts excepted), owe a huge debt of gratitude to F. Strasser for discovering that the demonstrably bad is actually the good, while attempts to remediate the conditions are demonstrably bad.

So, this one's for you F. Strasser and all those who have succ*med to your hype and hyperbole

[Pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff ft!!!

[kmkpaints]

I defined the area of the bulge that indicates negative plane coffin bone. I would imagimne most of the lameness is in the impar ligament (connects the bottom of the navicular bone to the coffin bone) and/or the coffin joint. As well there is something on the Xrays of the LF I want you to ask your vet about ,but won't discuss it here publicly since I am not a vetrinarian. I will Email you. Also, you can add wedge with frog support and not get her sore if you apply it in the very rear part of the frog only.. the rear third of the frog. I use thick bar wedge pads with Equipack under just the bar on lots of these and they go well in them.
Patty

Since you brought up the ligament etc...he did tell me that if we did a MRI (which he said we could but he didnt feel neccesary at this point) we would see the terrible stress that the ligaments and stuff under those bones were under at this time. He said when I took those shoes off, any positive that we had achieved has been reversed and we are starting from scratch. Anyway, he agreed that alot of her pain is coming from the ligaments and other stuff(sorry I dont remember the names of everything) that we arent seeing on the xray.

Funny how many things you were right about...

I only hope, that someone can learn from my mistake. The clinic I took her to today is well known for their work. (as a matter of fact I watched them nerve a horse that had been referred from Montana) It was very interesting to see this in person. Anyway, I do hope that by posting further information and our treatment that someone, who is having the same problem wont feel so alone as I did , with no answers and everyone screaming to do something different. My vet did say if I had left her the way she is, the outcome would not have been as good.

Lori

[sjfarrier]

From the pictures taken of the side view, the cannon bone is back way too far behind the heal ( no proper heal support). I am not crazy about shoes in this case either, but I hope your farrier can find some way of building heal and changing these angles to align the bone structure here.
I also agree with Gwen and Patty- there seems to be a false sole that needs to be delt with. Maybe your farrier would not mind if you voiced your concerns AND invited him or her to visit this site. There is no place like it for articles and new information!!!

[kmkpaints]

From the pictures taken of the side view, the cannon bone is back way too far behind the heal ( no proper heal support). I am not crazy about shoes in this case either, but I hope your farrier can find some way of building heal and changing these angles to align the bone structure here.
I also agree with Gwen and Patty- there seems to be a false sole that needs to be delt with. Maybe your farrier would not mind if you voiced your concerns AND invited him or her to visit this site. There is no place like it for articles and new information!!!

The vet wants their onsite clinic farrier to do the first shoe set and I called my farrier tonight and she asked if I would care if she came along with! She is great! She told me she would like to visit with the vet so she can look at the xrays and learn herself. I thought this was admirable. I adore my current farrier. She is willing to learn, try different ideas, talk to those with those ideas. I cant ask much more than that from her. I was afraid she would be upset when I told her the clinic wanted their farrier to shoe her first and she wasnt the least bit offended and instead asked if she could go along...

So during this I may bring up that it looked like she was a little unbalanced(somehow during the visit with the vet) and this will bring it more to her attention...I went out and looked at my others after it was mentioned here and they are consistently a little off (obviously on some it isnt as big a deal) so it is something that maybe she needs to be aware of..(I think someone said it is the way she holds her rasp)

I have to mention that I did bring up to her that I posted this on a list and someon mentioned the excess sole...she told me she was afraid (with no xrays) to take ANY sole from this filly because when she pushes on it she felt that there wasnt much there. So she was being cautious knowing we had issues already. :) She normally does VERY little knife work inside...mostly just the frog from what I can tell. SO maybe, now that we have an xray they will get that taken care of next Thursday when we reset her.

I will invite her here ...not sure how she does with computers :)

I agree about the wealth of knowledge here... I have been reading through old posts and am amazed at what a person can learn from looking at photos and reading the replies.



Lori

[kmkpaints]

Hey! Wait a minute. that foot isn't broken back with a negative plane coffin bone. To the contrary, it is a classic example of the harmonic curve and leaf spring apparatus in action!

For those who might now be confused, the harmonic curve and leaf spring apparatus are elements that were first discovered and brought to the equine world's attention by one F. Strasser. Prior to their discovery, these types of feet and bone malalignment were referred to as "broken back " and negative plane coffin bones. Due to the extensive research conducted by F. Strasser, we now know that these things are a good thing. I as well as the rest of you(stasser advocates, admireres, adherernts excepted), owe a huge debt of gratitude to F. Strasser for discovering that the demonstrably bad is actually the good, while attempts to remediate the conditions are demonstrably bad.

So, this one's for you F. Strasser and all those who have succ*med to your hype and hyperbole

[Pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff ft!!!

Rick ,
I am very confused... How can this be a GOOD thing? I mean you no disrespect but my vet said if we dont align her asap she will eventually be unfixable..

Sorry in advance if I just misunderstood... I just want to understand...My vet said she had a negative plane coffin bone, are you seeing something different or saying that this isnt bad?

Lori (Who is now totally confused)

[calshoer]

Rick ,
I am very confused... How can this be a GOOD thing? I mean you no disrespect but my vet said if we dont align her asap she will eventually be unfixable..

Sorry in advance if I just misunderstood... I just want to understand...My vet said she had a negative plane coffin bone, are you seeing something different or saying that this isnt bad?

Lori (Who is now totally confused)
Lori don't panic. Rick was being sarcastic...you gotta know him.
;) Patty

[kmkpaints]

Lori don't panic. Rick was being sarcastic...you gotta know him.
;) Patty

Ok,lol.. I get it now....
Lori

[Phil Armitage]

Kim and others , thanks for shareing this issue and all the ideas of how to handle it. Very informative!!

Kim, your a very patient person and your farrier sounds great. I hope you guys stick together and continue to work things out like this. This is what helps us farriers get better at what we do. It is not an easy job.

[the_unicorn]

Denise, I got the computer measurer out on the X-Rays.

There is a 2.2 degree slope in the floor plus the nails have the head protruding giving the hoof more of a tilt.

With the wedges compensating for the floor I was able to see a zero palmar angle (bottom of the pedal bone) and just to confirm that the front wall was at exactly 45 degrees perfect for a horse, as that is the relationship between angles a horse grows the bone at.

These angles would be optimum if the horse was standing on level ground without the shoe. If run a line along the top surface of the shoe and the bottom plane of the coffin bone you get parallel lines, this ignores the nail heads using just the trimmed hoof. Damn good alignment for the trim of the hoof when related to the bone surface.

http://www.thehorseshoof.com/hoofangles.html

Just to be pedantic the fore foot bone image in this shot shows 46 but I measure 44 degrees.

I have marked up the X-Rays to show the angles, I just dont have anywhere to put them.

You can safely say no negative plane coffin bone except for the nails on concrete, as you can measure 45 degree coffin bone front surface from the top surface of the shoe.

I won't argue against the vet, but I still think there is more of an issue in the sole and bars area of the hoof. The lowering of the heels by the farrier without cleaning up the bars would be the reason for increase in pain.

As for radiographs the distance from projector to leg and then to plate will give distance errors due to paralax. The angles will be maintained, but for real distance measuring a metal object of a known length must be included in a known position on the leg. Even if it is at the edge of the hoof as long as it is parallel to the projector you can then use it to calculate the size of everything else.


Regards
Darren Robertson, CHG

[Rick Burten]

http://www.thehorseshoof.com/hoofangles.html

The problem with this website starts with the fact that it consists of the Bible of Junk Science by one F. Strasser.

She incorrectly assumes that the normal spatial orientation of p3 within the hoof capsule is that of one with a zero palmer angle, ie: ground parallel. since every reputable veterinary anatomist, physiologist, researcher, ad naseum, refutes this contention, we are left with the fact that this and the rest of Strasser's assumptions are incorrect. Strasser herself, waffles about when on one had she says front hoof angles must be 45 degrees, and then allows for a range of
angles based on her trying to account for hoof wall/capsule wear.

Further, the hoof and pastern pictured in the photo show a broken back HP axis, but I'm sure that is explained away by the invocation of the phrases "harmonic curve" and 'leaf spring apparatus', two hitherto undiscovered and unrecognized conditions. And might I be so bold as to point out, still unrecognized by anyone in horsedome other than Strasser and the followers of the cult of Strasser.

[kmkpaints]

I dont know what a harmonic curve is ,but what I can add to this conversation is the very MINUTE that wedge shoes are put on this filly she is about 90% sound. I have come to learn, since posting this, that my mistake was not taking her back and tweaking the shoes(frog support etc) and instead pulled those shoes and put her through two months of misery. I cant even imagine having to walk on feet for two months :(

I simply cannot wait until Thursday when she gets her new shoes...for the first time in months she will walk without that severe pain. I dont know how or why it works, but when someone here said "Think about it, she is telling you what helps" They were right. I will not forget that lesson.

When I visited with the clinic about the subjects brought up here (barefoot etc) they told me that we dont expect our long distance runners to run 26 miles barefoot or in store brand shoes... that these horses are athletes, and that just as a olympic marathon runner would protect their feet, that is what we do with our equine athletes.

My new vet explained the xrays to me, and used a model to show me what is occuring in her foot and why we have pain. He told me that we are EXTREMELY lucky..and he stressed the EXTREMELY part..that we didnt founder her. He has her on 2 gms bute until Thursday because of the pulse and the heat that was occuring in her hoof...

I dont know about proper angles and such, which is why I asked here and I have enjoyed not only reading this thread but have went through many of the others....but what I can tell you is that when we raise her 3 degrees she becomes a totally different horse.. Does that not say something? I feel bad that I gave in to some (not here) that told me I was a rotton owner for keeping shoes on her. That is the reason I took them away from her. :( It was like asking me to take my shoes off and walk on rocks.


I think we all agree that the most important thing is that the horse is comfortable.... to me, that is what is important.. Not about fighting about what the best method is.

I think that there was some EXTREMELY interesting information here and thank everyone for their input.. :)

Lori

[Dances with Hooves]

KMK,

I am so glad that your horse is doing well. The nice thing about shoeing today is that we can (although I do try and take a horse barefoot whenever possible) provide a horse that is not landing slightly heel first with a wedge pad with frog support molded in and fill under that pad with a material of about the consistancy of compacted dirt (I like to use Impression material) in essence bringing the ground up to the frog that has been elevated and preserving the natural loading of the foot. Really the best of both worlds. The foot is wedged but the frog "thinks" its still on the ground. Horses do so well in these types of packages and thats where I feel the obsession with "barefoot" goes awry. I focus on the mechanics that I want to provide the foot and how the foot is landing to decide between and among barefoot, shod flat, shod with a frog wedge or flat frog pad, IM or softer support (not all feet can take firm support), Wedge or flat non frog pad (not all feet can take frog pressure) to do whats going to be best for the horse. Lots of times its bare feet but lots of times its not.

I find the words always and never when applied to horses gets one in trouble fast.

[Phil Armitage]

Denise, I do not think the root of the problem is known or even can be fixed. Are you suggesting that with a proper barefoot trim one can solve an unknown problem. I do several horses with a broken back HP axis diagnosed with Navicular syndrome at one time they were in Egg Bars with no frog support, what a mess. I have changed the shoeing to 3 deg. wedge with frog support, I trim according to Natural Balance principles and clean up the bars. They cannot go barefoot and I would not even try it. As long as there feet are at the proper angle and supported they are very happy. Sometimes poor angles are due to poor trimming and can be fixed with good trimming. Some horses just don't have whatever they need to keep the bone coloumb at a proper angle and need the aid of shoes and pads. I think wedgeing might have gotten a bad rep. because it is done without frog support. There are all kinds of methods of frog support available, I believe as firm as possible to support the bone coloumb however if the horse cannot tolerate it, there are materials that are supportive but softer. I do not see anything wrong with doing whatever it takes to make a horse sound and comfortable so they can do there job without causeing other problems. Just do it and move on. We take care of ourselfes when we are uncomfortable why not take care of our Equine friend. This all Natural way of thinking started out as what is best for the horse and from what I have seen has turned into very hard on horses. I am all for doing what is best for horses, but we need to use commen sense and keep learning all we can. Don't forget we are talking about domestic horses that we use for recreational and competition purposes not feral horses.

[kmkpaints]

Denise
I understand what you are saying ,and I see what you are describing , I guess we will see when she gets her wedges and frog support. If that doesnt fix the problem then I will be back and looking for other alternatives :)

However, you need to realize, this filly became lame when barefoot at 10 months old!and it just steadily got worse (I believe and my vet said he is NOT going to place blame but believes an overzealous farrier took her heel off and took too much sole out! )... as I said, I tried different farriers (only this last one didnt clean out the foot as you would like to see, I beleive the others took too much!) and she was still lame, only sound (or mostly sound) when we wedged her. Wewill see if the frog support finishes off that soundness as the vet feels it will. ..


I cant help but feel that If the bars were truley the whole picture(and I am not saying that they dont need to be cleaned out, Now that we have xrays I am sure that the clinic farrier will do so) anyway, if the bars were truley the problem , she would be more comfortable now that she has shoes on taking them off the ground.... If I have a corn on the bottom of my foot, and I put something in to keep the pressure from pushing when I walk, I will feel better if that is truley the reason that my foot hurts.... to me that is only logical.

If not, then I will continue looking for whatever answer will make her comfortable and to help her continue on and live a long and productive life without pain.

As far as what do I ask her to do that is demanding? Im not sure if this was meant in a nasty way(it appears that it was ) but she is asked, during show season, to do alot that a normal pasture horse , or feral horse, would not be asked to do. Including, but not limited to, carrying more weight than a feral horse, walking and unloading on rocks and cement, standing tied for periods of time (without shoes she would simply paw her toe off) , sometimes even being stalled on cement. All of this is hard on her feet.

I am not saying your point was not valid ,and I sense that you are angry with me for disagreeing at this point. I think it just might work on some horses. I am in hopes that my other mare will eventually go barefoot again... I dont believe in spending hundreds of dollars if not neccesary....Honestly,after having someone "show" me the mechanics of what is going on inside her foot, I feel that I have found the right answer for her.

She isnt sore simply because of the "bars" . Before the xrays I might have even agreed with that but the xrays show that she has an angle which is not correct for her. IMO they dont lie.

I appreciate your input but please dont get angry when I dont use it. I dont feel that is productive for anyone. Especially this horse.

Thanks
Lori

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Ask your vet about the possibility of epiphisitis.

[kmkpaints]

This filly has not hand any issues with that. Because we do halter I am pretty aware of what it is and watch closely.

He feels the reason she goes forward sometimes, is more because she is trying to take pressure off those heels. You may have missed it when I posted it earlier, but we did a heel block and she went about 70% sound, then did a full hoof block and she was 100%.. He said that he was ruling out any knee problems etc when doing this..... :)

Just wanted you to know we did discuss that, and with 100% soundness on the block he felt it wasnt an issue at this time.No swelling in the hocks, or knees.

Thank goodness she didnt have that problem too.. then we would have really been in trouble.

We used to have issues like that until I went to oats and moormans minerals... it seems to have solved any of the epiphysitas issues we were having in the past with others.
Lori

[calshoer]

Denise in green: Maybe someone more experienced can help me out here and help me understand and interpret what it is that's really going on with the alignment in these xrays. When I look at the xray of the RF with just the shoe I see the surface of the shoe is not level to the ground surface -it is inclined back at an angle which appears to be forcing the back of the coffin bone down.
Yes it is, but just a little bit because of the nail heads...and not enough to justify the amount of the break in the angle of the coffin joint. As well, these feet probably had some toe trimmed off when she was shod, so the angle was likely even more broken back pre-shoeing. If you look athe photos of the feet, especialy the one I marked with the line down the front of the LF foot, it is obvious there is a broken back hoof axis.
(I think this situation happens too in barefooted horses when there is too much toe and hairline slopes are greater than 30 degrees, or when the heels are long, low and crushed under the hoof.)
Agree, and on those I put them in shoes with frog support and sometimes wedges.
The P1 and P2 appear to be very steep and you have a very broken back angle between P2 and P3
Partly that is because of the excess tension in the tendons running down the the back of the fetlock, jamming the fetlock forward. Raising the heels will immediately lower the pastern angle due to relief of that tension from behind. This is a well known phenomenon, that raising heels lowers pastern angle. .
When the wedge "support" is added to the bottom it brings the shoe to level and appears that P1 and P2 are no longer at such steep angles and it appears there is more "compression" (for lack of a better word) in the soft tissues in the back of the hoof.
Correct.
It's almost as if the proximal ends of P1 and P2 drop or move backwards and down as the distal ends are moved up and forward. Patty, you claim this happens when frog support is added.
Correct.
In these xrays I don't believe there is any support added directly to the frog; it seems the back of the hoof has only been elevated to level. I also question how this change in elevation really helps the horse (although I do think getting the hoof level is important). It aligns the coffin joint/ Misalignment of the coffin joint is probably the most common cause of navicular syndrome. Frog support should be part of the equation, because raising heels withuot it will cause stress in the horn and laminae in the heels and will allow the back of the bone to slip downward even more ,exacerbating the problems later. Ibelieve that frog support is going to be aded to this package .
The second this horse steps off a flat block of wood the joints and the alignment will change to whatever surface this horse walks on.
Of course, true but the Xrays still illustrate the need for wedge as this horse spends time on concrete and hard surfaes.
I think the horse's real problem here is the excess bar
B.S.The bars are there because they grew there due to the need for more support under the rear of the bone. Same as when a horse founders...they grow a lot of bar temporarily for good reason. Only Frau Strasser thinks that bars, placed there by nature and growing to various degrees in response to streses and inflammation, are a bad thing. They are in fact natures way of trying to support the bone.
and inflammation in the hoof.
Well no s.h.y.t.
Patty

[kmkpaints]

of the bone to slip downward even more ,exacerbating the problems later. Ibelieve that frog support is going to be aded to this package .
[


You are correct, The vet explained to me that we would be using a 3 degree wedge with frog support this time.(He showed me a really neat soft rubbery plastic they just started using recently. They take a mold of the frog and then using a pad use that horses exact mold to support that frog..in other words it isnt a one size fits all application but more tailered to what she needs.. I have never seen this done and am excited about learning more about it. He didnt feel she would tolerate anything very hard...this almost feels rubbery and soft like a frog does..

Last spring we did only the wedge and she was still not 100%. I will post photos of the foot after trim and after shoes. I might even have him take a 25.00 xray so I can share it after we shoe her...

Lori

[calshoer]

Mr Unicorn wrote With the wedges compensating for the floor I was able to see a zero palmar angle (bottom of the pedal bone) and just to confirm that the front wall was at exactly 45 degrees perfect for a horse, as that is the relationship between angles a horse grows the bone at.
I know of very few horses who, sir, if the bone is at 45 degrees on the dorsal angle, are sound. Why? Because at 45 degrees the palmer angle is zero, and at zero palmer angle very ,very few have properly lined up coffin joints. The angle of the pastern is usually steeper, in part due to increased and abnormal tension in the flexor tendons from the break in angle.
The navicular bone and impar ligament take quite a beating if the joint is not lined up. That is something the Strasser barefoot cult followers leaves out of the equation, and why the assumed 45 degree "perfect angle" is so very dangerous to try to achieve in most horses.

Also, on another 'barefoot at all costs to the horse' note, I find a great number of the "after" pictures in the barefoot websites, (including the one you refer to) to appear more pathological than when the trims were begun, with more dishing and distortion in the dorsal hoof walls due to the bone rotation the trim is causing. And a LOT with obviously broken back pastern hoof axis. But then again, most of you don't bother to get "after" xrays, do you? Because if you did, you could see the damage being done internally in the name of a 30 degree hairline and a 45 degree foot .
I guess that does not matter though, as long as you get those heels weakened enough and so they can flatten out unnaturally and spread.
AND some of you here have sent nasty private Emails to the poor person who originally posted here, because you are apparently too chicken***** to address your concerns about the use of shoes to her in public where they can be scientifically dabated. If your case for barefooting this horse was so strong it would stand up here in public, wouldn't it? .
And since you referred us to this picture as your example of a perfect 45 degree angle ,I am bringing it up here for ease of discussion. Everyone should take a look. I will not take it from that site and post it here, it is probably copyrighted.
It is the first picture in that page of the front foot pointing left, with the clear plastic guage over it. The hoof pastern angles are obviously broken back.
I seriously doubt that this horse is truly sound, landing heel first and free on all kinds of terrain.
More likely he is ridden in soft going and arena where his *toes can sink in* and thereby self correct the broken back angles. I would sure like to see a video of this horse walking and trotting on hard ground but I bet there is none available. Patty

[Barefoottree]

Denise, I do not think the root of the problem is known or even can be fixed.

You're correct that the problem is unknown. That's the problem. When the blocks reveal that the horse can be 70% sound when the heels are blocked and 100% sound when the hoof is blocked, what are they missing? The obvious signs, that's what. The issues are in the feet!

The sole views clearly show uneven heels in one hoof, underrun heels in the other, loads of excess bar material filling in and around the frogs and the lateral xrays show that one foot is too painful to weight the heel (indicated by the steepened bone alignment) and that the coffin bones show some changes (future xrays will show more).

This is a show horse and barefoot methods don't mix with show horse management practices (limited turnout, limited movement). It doesn't surprise me that the horse didn't come sound in 2 months. If we knew more about the cir***stances surrounding those 2 months, it might become even clearer why "barefoot" didn't work. Under the cir***stances I don't think that matters though. The owner is happy with shoes on their horse. If the sole views represent the trim back then, it was not a trim that would help the situation and we don't know the rest (if the horse was still being kept as before or not).


Are you suggesting that with a proper barefoot trim one can solve an unknown problem.

Speaking for myself, if you don't know what the problems are it's unlikely you'd know how to trim the hoof to correct the unknown. However, I see hooves like this one's and recognize the outward conditions that go along with heel pain issues. It all goes back to form and function. I know that excess bar inhibits hoof function. I know that when the bars are addressed that the horse improves. I've already mentioned how lifestyle plays a factor though. I would not be trying to correct a horse that isn't going to see 24/7 turnout. Movement is required in addition to footing that will allow the hooves to function too (firm vs deep and soft).


Some horses just don't have whatever they need to keep the bone coloumb at a proper angle and need the aid of shoes and pads.

Some horses or some issues? Sticking to the horse in this thread, which do you think it is? I see issues preventing this horse from using itself naturally. I don't think the horse, itself, is incapable of doing so. The hoof form is improper and the horse reacts to it. The issues are not gone once the shoes and wedges are applied. Now the horse is allowed to live WITH its issues. How long will it be able to do this and remain "sound"? That's an unknown.


I think wedgeing might have gotten a bad rep. because it is done without frog support. There are all kinds of methods of frog support available, I believe as firm as possible to support the bone coloumb however if the horse cannot tolerate it, there are materials that are supportive but softer. I do not see anything wrong with doing whatever it takes to make a horse sound and comfortable so they can do there job without causeing other problems. Just do it and move on.

Here's my take on wedges. It's proven that raising the heels alters blood flow entering the hoof. I've seen navicular horses become more comfortable after their heels were raised but this approach is limited because the comfort will only last so long and is not indefinite. It is because the issues causing the problems remain untouched. So the root cause remains and continues while the altered blood flow affects allow the horse to live with these issues until they become painfully aware of them once again.

Now then, this bothers me. This is also why many believe navicular cannot be cured. Sure it can but treatments that would only address the symptoms cannot bring about a cure. Raising the heels does not place the coffin bone in a physiologically correct position. So this sets up an unnatural stress situation. Hooves are meant to have more weight in the heel regions vs the toe. Raising the heels shifts weight onto the toe. Women who wear high heels (and men who do too?), know this. Raising heels alters the tensions on the DDFT's too and the same is true for similar tendon structures in the human leg where heels remain high. Tendons weren't made to remain slack. The muscles that are attached to tendons will adjust to maintain tension.

Continued unnatural use of one's body creates other issues. This is why I personally don't care to treat symptoms vs getting down to the root cause. Sure, it's okay for people to choose whatever suits them when it comes to how their horses will be cared for. It's just nice to know navicular can be cured vs not.


We take care of ourselves when we are uncomfortable why not take care of our Equine friend.

Phil, let's be more specific, huh? What example could we use, as far as human conditions, that could compare to navicular in horses? I mean, if we have a headache and take aspirin to feel better, that's one thing. However, if our headache is being caused by a brain tumor, how long do you expect aspirin to be affective? Aspirin only addresses the symptom, the ache. It does nothing to treat the cause.

So let's find something that we can truly relate to when it comes to navicular treatments for horses. You're either helping the animal live WITH it's issues or are effectively removing the cause for their issues.

People who can't stand to see a horse in pain will do whatever it takes to relieve it. However, this doesn't mean the pain causing issues are gone. It only means the horse isn't aware any more. Why? Are we really doing the horse a favor then or just helping "us" feel better?


This all Natural way of thinking started out as what is best for the horse and from what I have seen has turned into very hard on horses. I am all for doing what is best for horses, but we need to use commen sense and keep learning all we can. Don't forget we are talking about domestic horses that we use for recreational and competition purposes not feral horses.

Hard on horses or hard on owners? What is hard on a horse to live as it was meant to? What is hard on a horse to be physiologically correct?

When it becomes a hardship on humans to provides for the horse's NATURAL needs, then it becomes what is EASIEST for the humans. Commonsense? Not hardly. Convenience isn't based on commonsense. Not when the convenience focuses on the horse OWNER vs the horse's natural needs.

Domesticated horses suffer when fewer of their natural needs are met. When horse owners are able to provide environments and care that comes closer to meeting the horse's natural needs, they fare much better. You don't have to keep the horse on 100's of acres to do this. Creative measures can be taken when dealing with small acreage or limited space. It just boils down to what owners can and are willing to do.

Tree

[kmkpaints]

what are they missing? The obvious signs,
Ummm....noone is missing that.... it is why he did the tests
If we knew more about the cir***stances surrounding those 2 months, it might become even clearer why "barefoot" didn't work.
Why dont you ask? You might be suprised. Do you want to know EXACTLY? Turnout in run, with 2 acre pasture. Horse trimmed every four weeks. lame the entire time. Was that enough turnout to suit you?
If the sole views represent the trim back
Instead of assuming when those photos were taken you should have asked. These sole photos were taken prior to being trimmed(and flat shoes put on) at four weeks post trim AFTER being out 24/7.
I know that when the bars are addressed that the horse improves.
I have to ask you how, you know that this will positively work on my girl ,(and every horse),and that the pain it will create for gosh knows how many more months, will be worth it? When I have an answer, provided by a specialist who WORKS WITH A FARRIER DIRECTLY that will make her pain free almost immediately? Also , if this truley were so much of her problem, how come she STILL cant walk with a flat shoe on where there is no pressure on those bars?
I would not be trying to correct a horse that isn't going to see 24/7 turnout.
She had 24/7 turnout... didnt use but 10 feet of it.. Put her in arena at times so she could lay down and rest. Dont know how much more natural you can get. Make you a deal, you come give me the 5000 for her(she is a 10,000 horse if sound so that is a great deal for you since you say you can fix her)...and fix her with your method. Keep us updated with photos and xrays,and since you know you can fix her that way I will give you 6000.00 back when she is barefoot and sound for 6 months...
Movement is required in addition
reply: She wont move if every step she takes puts her in incredible pain... kind of a catch 22 I would say.Ground was firm..put in arena when needed.
I see issues preventing this horse from using itself naturally.
<reply: Really? Did you visit my farm and I just dont remember? I didnt come here for a lecture on how badly I treat my expensive horse who is turned out more than most horses kept anywhere and who is kept parasite free, fed the highest quality feeds, given every vaccination that is available to keep her from getting sick, getting farrier care every four weeks, xrays when needed, a fan on her when its hot, a blanket when it is cold. Turnout with other horses to give her socialization time. I dont think you know ANYTHING about the care this horse receives. Come here and see my horses all turned out in the cold blowing snow today. Every one with a winter coat. Come see me going out in the blizzard last night to make sure that the boss mare wasnt keeping the old mare out of the shelter. I take great offence that you judge me on the care I give this horse. She was just fine in shoes..it was only when I turned her out to be a "horse" that she was in incredible pain.
The hoof form is improper and the horse reacts to it.
I agree that her hoof isnt balanced however what we dont understand is why she reacts to this the way she does, vs. the horse next to her that doesnt. My guess is that she lacks the structure that the other horse has to keep things aligned.
The issues are not gone once the shoes and wedges are applied.
really? How do you know that?
Could you show me ,by diagram, how the before and after wedge did not make her angles better? At the clinic I was shown perfect alignment on a model, and the wedge brought her very close to that (and we actually were only at 2 degrees on that wedge, he said he would have moved it back further where it should be) so PLEASE explain to me, by diagram, how the wedged angle is BAD for her.... I dont see it!
Hooves are meant to have more weight in the heel regions vs the toe.
but you seem to miss that this filly doesnt have the support she needs right now so she , on her own, is shifting all her weight to her toe...when the foot became balanced with the wedge you should have seen her stand up straight on it.. you could see improvement. I know NOTHING so all I can look at are physical diagrams and results. When this filly is wedged she DOES place more weight on her heel. Our problem before was that we didnt support the frog(at least that is what was explained to me)
Women who wear high heels (and men who do too?), know this.
if my heel was 3 degrees lower than it physically should be, prior to putting on that high heel shoe, I would welcome someone giving me a heel raise! They do it in humans too..if you think about it... inserts for shoes!
Continued unnatural use of one's body creates other issues.
I dont want to hear this **** . My broodmares have 2 inch creases down their backs and they are out in pasture, no grain with round bales.. and their feet arent done every 6 weeks and they arent lame! I didnt come here for a lecture on how I care for my horses. dont pass judgement on me or my care of my horses. No wonder others have emailed me privately thanking me for posting because they were afraid to. I dont really care what anyone thinks. I came here for help. Willing to listen to all ideas but this really turns me off to yours.
However, this doesn't mean the pain causing issues are gone. This statement makes NO sense..IF the horse isnt in pain, then it is telling me that it is better that way. We arent giving her a pain masking drug.. That would be covering it up. She will buck and play within days of the wedges with NO bute. Hopefully the frog support will finish the last 10% that we never had. .
Why? Are we really doing the horse a favor
Well again,since it isnt a pain reliever, then it has obviously helped. To me that is a no brainer. Now if I were giving bute with it then I might agree with you.
What is hard on a horse to live as it was meant to?
Oh good grief.Then they could go out on the plains, get west nile and die, babies born and eaten by wildlife, mares retaining a placenta anf foundering,abcesses gone untreated because that is what is natural. Some would starve to death..But by gosh they would have natural feet! lol.. I have horses that BEG at the fence to be let back into their ****py life! Dont believe me???? I invite you to come visit. I will turn them out into their natural pasture and you can watch them run the fence to come back in...yes, even with others out there. I am sure they would rather stand out and fight swarms of flies rather than in their run with a fly spray system overhead..They looks so happy out there in the pasture with blood on their legs from flies. But it is natural!
what is EASIEST for the humans.
I had to laugh when I read this ..you think the care I give for mine is EASIER than just turning them out???
Not hardly.
Not when the convenience focuses on the horse OWNER
well my need yesterday, during a blizzard was to stay in, and stay warm..but instead, I (the selfish witch of a owner) was out making sure all the broodmares could get in.. That the babies(who by the way are turned out for the winter..imagine that) were all put up so they werent cold. That the 4 year old stud (who is a superior halter, never a foot problem in his life, turned out in his own run with pasture now that the yearling doesnt have it) had a blanket because he was shivering even with shelter...Sure..it was convenient for me to go out and do this in a blizzard ...subzero temps... real convenient.
Domesticated horses suffer when fewer of their natural needs are met.
My horses are NOT suffering..the ONLY one suffering is the one I listened to natural barefoot people and pulled her shoes...*Ahem* Do you want to know that I have had trainers tell me mine arent heavy enough? Yeah..I give them too much turnout. etc etc... But that is the way I do things. You have NO RIGHT to judge me...none... and yes, I am offended.
When horse owners are able to provide environments and care you should have come here yesterday and told my old stud that he just had to tough it out....that the fact that it was 70 two weeks ago and negative 20 yesterday with wind didnt matter..he just had to tough it out cause a blanket isnt natural. That shivering was healthy and I wasnt going to freeze out there putting a blanket on him.
Long story short...You shouldnt be so judgemental on the lifestyle my horses (or others) lead. This is the real world. Not cowboy and indian days. Just like our current dogs probably wouldnt enjoy being outside by themselves...
I was more than willing to listen about bars, and other ideas (it may work on a different horse)but to tell you the truth, the nasty emails I have received, that sounded ALOT like the post you just made. Turned me totally off....
Oh, one last thing. Until you have spent a day here (and I think you might be suprised at how much turnout these horses get) you really shouldnt assume...Nothing makes me sicker than a horse cooped in a stall for all but 20 min a day! You didnt know that tho , did you? Lori
(who apologizes for the outburst but I have had enough nasty stuff since I posted this post )

[Barefoottree]

To the OP of this thread:

I hope you felt better after venting your frustrations towards me. If it did you some good, great! However, I would like to take a moment to point out to you that my response was directed to Phil. I even used his post for direct quotes. Now then, if you would like me to answer each and every question you addressed to me personally, I will. Just say the word.

Tree

[kmkpaints]

To the OP of this thread:

I hope you felt better after venting your frustrations towards me. If it did you some good, great! However, I would like to take a moment to point out to you that my response was directed to Phil. I even used his post for direct quotes. Now then, if you would like me to answer each and every question you addressed to me personally, I will. Just say the word.

Tree

with all due respect you were speaking of my horse, referencing my horse, referencing the conditions you presume that my horse lives in, referencing what you presumed my horses conditions were during the 60 days barefoot, referencing a sole condition that you presumed was post trimming and was not, and referencing my non natural horsekeeping practices in your reply to Phil. Were you not?


This will be my last post.. I thought everyone could learn by what is going on with my girl. I would be perfectly willing to come back in 6 weeks, with more xrays and pictures and say...darn, this hasnt worked, what else can we do?.. but not now.. I was only showing the progress at this point , or willing to, to help another horse, or farrier who might have this situation. Because , I have found, that even tho I havent had this happen before , it is more common than I ever knew . Anyone who wants the followup links to her healing (or not) feel free to email me and I will post the link so you can learn too. We never stop learning.. :)

To those of you, barefoot, shoe or whatever , who gave me help without insulting me, I want to thank you. I have alot of good information to go forward with now and have learned alot ... Keep doing what you do. I always say,my farrier IS my show season...without you all there is no horse. Before these two horses, I have not had issues but my current farrier, and I , and the clinic farrier and the vet will all work together for the better of my girl, with alot of your suggestions...that is the important part. :)
Working together we will find the answer :)

Thanks everyone.




Lori

[Barefoottree]

with all due respect you were speaking of my horse, referencing my horse, referencing the conditions you presume that my horse lives in, referencing what you presumed my horses conditions were during the 60 days barefoot, referencing a sole condition that you presumed was post trimming and was not, and referencing my non natural horsekeeping practices in your reply to Phil. Were you not?

Not really. I was talking to Phil who was talking to Denise. You read what you wanted into the deal. You continue to do so. Whatever.

Tree

[kmkpaints]

I thought I would let you all know that Suzy is now sporting a new pair of Nikes...lol..

Actually I have updated her progress page with photos her new shoes and an explanation of how she reacted and how she is doing....

Here is the link

http://www.kmkpainthorses.com/suzyfeet.htm


all I can say is :) :) she was 90% sound when we walked out of there!!!! He said it will take time for those ligaments and things to recover.. SHe is now turned out in a smaller pen with shelter and she was soooo much better... Now I will pray this is the answer and we get that last 10%!

[Rick Burten]

Well, that does look some better. That said, I think the breakover is too far forward, there is not enough heel support for my liking, the medial coronary band
on the right front is jammed and it doesn't look like the underrun heel issues, especially on the left front have been truely addressed. I would have liked to have seen the feet(solar view) just prior to the application of the orthotics.

For me, this horse would be a candidate for either banana shoes, rail shoes, or EDSS.

[kmkpaints]

Well, that does look some better. That said, I think the breakover is too far forward, there is not enough heel support for my liking, the medial coronary band
on the right front is jammed and it doesn't look like the underrun heel issues, especially on the left front have been truely addressed. I would have liked to have seen the feet(solar view) just prior to the application of the orthotics.

For me, this horse would be a candidate for either banana shoes, rail shoes, or EDSS.

Rick
Can you draw this out so I can understand? He did tell me that we had VERY little to work with. This particular horse has NO room for error in nailing and she had been trimmed two weeks prior so I dont know if he could really do everything he wanted(maybe what you are talking about doesnt need more hoof to work with)

I would love it if you would explain so a dummy like me can get it.... I cant get a visual on what you mean..
Lori

[Rick Burten]

Being that I am almost completely computer illiterate, I can't draw what you ask. However, I think that if you do a site search of the archives using the three shoe types as key words, you will find some excellent examples of each one. The EDSS shoe can be found at www.hopeforsoundness.com or the EDSS site, whose address escapes me at the moment.

When nailing becomes a problem, any of these shoes can be glued on quite nicely.

Our resident Banana Shoe guru(I like that, its sorta melifluous :p ) Ronald Aalders can probably best describe the fabrication and application of that shoe. He also has posted some really good photos of feet with that shoe in place, so they should be easily found in the archives.

And Ron, should you perchance read this, I think you should change you Avitar to a banana wearing an aluminum shoe. Perhaps a banana in the middle of a banana shoe, said banana holding a paddle and paddling furiously up stream against a current of nays, nos, and other detritus.

[kmkpaints]

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I will go check this out. I am going to take all this information to my new farrier who can go over it with me.

I always say two heads are better than one and I am sure he will agree he isnt perfect and doesnt probably always think of certain ideas..

Lori

[kmkpaints]

Thought I would let you know that we reset this mare today. So this would be her 2nd pair of shoes. We have expansion and she is moving up in shoe size. We were able to bring her heel back a little bit more, and her toe back. Her foot on the one side is looking much more "normal" She is sound on the straight away but lame on the turn.... Vet stated he wanted to see her shod this way for one more set and then xray again. There was a TON of bruising, red on the sole. The farrier believes, even tho the xrays show no rotation that she has founder...I am not sure I understand how he can say this with no visible rotation. My feelings are the blood is still from all that time I made her go barefoot.

Anyway, she was not as painful to shoe today. No dormosedan was needed. We feel that we need to go every four weeks to keep that angle up where it is supposed to be so she is on his 4 week schedule.

It may have been my imaginination but I thought she moved alot better tonight than even on the first set of shoes.

Lori

[Forgewizard]

Kmkpaints,

Checked out Suzy's "nikes" pix! Seems a might better than the previous ones!

Just an observation on the filling used between the pad and hoof. Do you know if this stuff has stayed soft and pliable- like playdoh- or has it set up to a rubbery consistency? reason I'm asking is that if the stuff is still soft and pliable- no real concens are raised. But if the stuff has set up to a rubbery state, then depending on how thin her sole is, how rigid the pad is and what type of terrain she is toodling over - will determine if the stuff has actually been allowed to get too far forward.

Next reset- if you use it again, the farrier may want to trim it back to only be in the back half of the hoof - not let it get in front of the frog apex.

Glad to hear Suzy is getting more comfy!
Regards,
Kim

[kmkpaints]

Im sorry, I didnt have the new photos up..... I am doing that this morning. That was her first set of Nikes...

I will take some pics this morning of her 2nd set...
The stuff is fairly stiff. It is rubbery but still pretty stiff. He did trim it back this time .. I will take pics.

I was very pleased with how her feet are expanding and the heel came back some. The first shoes he only had about 2 weeks of hoof growth from the last farrier so understandably couldnt do much. This time we had alot to work with and I watched him clean her sole out and it was done much differently than my previous farrier.

I was just sooo happy that we didnt have to sedate her to nail the shoes on...That in itself shows some progress. :)

I will post the new pics after chores...
Lori

[kmkpaints]

I just wanted to update you all as I am pretty excited after our 2nd reset today.

After just two resets this yearling has now been brought up to the proper angles WITHOUT a wedge pad! She is in a flat shoe still with orthotics but no more wedge.

We did more xrays after the trim and her angles were just as good without the wedges as they originally were with the wedges. I could have KISSED my farrier.

She is brusing on her sole where the coffin bone edges are (hope that explains that right) is that because she is soooo thin soled? There is no rotation at all but the bruising was still there.

The vet said to keep doing what we are doing and not change anything..that she is slowly getting better. We did go up in size a little on her shoe.

Anyway, I was pretty excited that with a proper trim she was brought back to good angles and now we can work on that last 5% of soundness.

Lori

[joan cameron]

WOW!! Congratulations on the success with your horse. It's been a long road for you and I commend you on your perserverance and your open mind. I'm also glad you didn't stop posting due to being "attacked" by some others. When people do that it only reflects poorly on them and shows their closed minds. Barefoot does not work for all horses and there are some who are willing to let some suffer because being right is more important than the welfare of the horse. I wish you continued success with the healing of your mare.

[kmkpaints]

Thank you for replying. It is very hard for me to be patient....Because I hadnt seen 100% improvement I was getting nervous but then once we took the xrays I saw that we were making progress... The vet explained to me that even tho this is better, the damage inside will take longer to heal..

I am trying to be patient. In the meantime, even if she never got any better(which they said she will) she would be good enough to be a broodmare and not live in pain. It is sooo nice to see her jump and run and buck and play...

Lori

[kmkpaints]

Oh and I do have to add... My farrier told me that the basic part of his job is to give the horse a balanced trim that is appropriate for that horses conformation. He said that any shoes or orthotics we add after that are tailered for a specific need that the individual horse has. he said they are put on for traction, specific events etc...He spends ALOT of time on the trim, having me walk the horse away etc etc and has helped me understand the things I need to know about my horses feet.

He is still concerned about the bruising at the outer edges of the coffin bone...but the xrays show no reason for it to be occuring. ANyone have any ideas?
Lori

[kmkpaints]

I just wanted to update you all on this girl.

We have her sound on everything but turning sharp on cement and we are going to do a block this next reset to see if that is unrelated to her hooves.

Thanks to everyone here and my vet/farrier team we showed this girl to a top 5 at the pinto world show two weeks ago.

For anyone reading this... please...if your horse needs shoes. Dont feel bad. We are only giving them what nature didnt, for whatever reason. Dont let anyone convince you to pull those shoes if your horse is sound with them and lame without. Your horse is telling you something.

I have come to learn ALOT about my horses hooves over the last year. I have a wonderful vet/farrier team for my special needs kids and I have a AWSESOME CJF that just came ot my house and did my horses a few days ago.

It was one of the most proffessional and good experiences I have ever had. His truck was clean, organized and he treated my broodmares hooves just like the show horses. Finishing them off to show like condition. He examined each young weanling to see where potential problems may arise and any special needs we will have to watch for.

I had decided when searching for a new farrier that I would only go with a CJF and I dont regret that decision one bit. It was nice to have a "Proffessional" come to my farm. After we were done we sat and ate hamburgers and visited.

Thank you again everyone for all your help here. You helped me move past the guilt trip that some were putting on me for putting shoes on my beautiful Suzy. I know now that had I not done something quick, she would not be here to bring us such joy and happiness. She runs and bucks and plays and is comfortable now.

We have had to tweak and change things as we have went along. she is now in a regular shoe with 4 degrees of wedge. In order to give her the correct angles her heels were brought back so as not to get underrun and we opted to give her the heel she needed with wedge pads. Her last xrays show improvement in sole and her hoof walls have become thick enough that it is no longer difficult to put the shoes on her. I dont know if she will always need shoes. I suspect that answer is yes but with my farrier/vet team we will make that decision when the time comes.

Lori http://www.kmkpainthorses.com/temp/suzylori.jpg

[Phil Armitage]

Hey Lori, this is excellent news. Thank you for shareing the outcome. I really like your farriers attitude towards proper trimming and then doing whatever is needed by shoeing. Sounds like you guys are a great team.