Need Advice ASAP, Before new farrier comes

[cowgirl@heart]

Hi, I need help with a 29 yo QH who in 98 founderd from getting into a bag of grain. She came though amazingly. We followed EDSS system. Horse was able to go barefoot after styrofoam applications. No shoes were needed. After foundering she has then been off in the R.F. But since she is just a pasture pet, and not being ridden, it didn't matter too much. Xrays in 98 showed small shadow at bottome of coffin bone. (poss. rotation? vet I was using was new, unfamiliar, since horse was doing so well...we didn't think much of it). Horse has done very well until this July. Horse has flat soles also.

Farrier came trimmed too short...found White Line, in RF hoof. Carved it out...horse was lame and all 4 feet hot. Gave bute...for about a week. horse was better...not sound...but not like before this trimming. 2 weeks ago, farrier came again. I told him, she was really lame, and not to trim so short...he rasped the hoof mainly...said the sole has bruising on 3 hooves. R.F., L.F. R.H. had to carve more of W.L. out. Horse was seriously lame. gave bute, feet were warm. 2 wks go by, called vet out...Immediately said, horse is foundering. Took x-rays, and did nerve block on R.F. Relief from block, and X-rays showed very slight rotation (R.F.) Said soles are flat and thin. Vet thinks if we put shoes on, to raise soles up, there will be relief. I don't know the farrier, vet said, he works with alot of founder cases. I don't feel comfortable nailing on shoes...don't think she can stand long enough to do it, due to arthritis. Horse gets a suppliment called "Hoof" from Advanced Biological Concepts. Also, their ABC suppliment, their free choice system, bute 1 1/2 tabs am/pm. Arnica 30X (2 times a day). Their Super Vitamins. Horse is on very short grass pastue, grass hay, no grain. I don't know what else to do for her. I am using the best resources we have in our small town. Does White Line hurt? Where would the bruising come from??? Inflamation from trimming too short?

If anyone has any ideas to pass on, I'd appreciate input. The vet and farrier come tomorrow, Friday. Thank You!!!!!!!!

[Rick Burten]

Tell the farrier to quit carving on her feet and put her in styrofoam. Depending on how advanced the WLD is, there could be some secondary pain due to the the destruction of the insensitive lamaminar bond to the wall, allowing p3 to move inappropriately. Any flares can be removed from the top, nothing in front of the apex of the frog should be touched, and as needed, the heels can be appropriately lowered.

Since you have some current radiographs, a trimming protocol should be based on what is seen on the rads. Shoes may or may not be indicated, but shoes alone will not be sufficient. The hoof, from the true apex of the frog rearward must also be supported. Otherwise, it is probable that it will prolapse.

She should be evaluated for Cushings disease or EMD(insulin resistance).

Rick

[cowgirl@heart]

Thank You Rick for the help. The farrier came and said the styrofoam was not going to help. A heart bar shoe was put on, the one foot. Infact, there was only one shoe put on at all. Is that OK? I am so uncertain if this was the right or wrong choice. It did change the lameness a bit. But not enough for me to feel good about the choice of a shoe. The vet said to give it a day or so... Thank you once again. I appreciate your time. Kris

[John Barney]

I was tought to always shoe in pairs,(trim also) the balance and weight issue may cause her to favor another hoof. It sounds like the too short trimming could be the problem. Is alot of sole being pared out? I think what Rick means by prolapse is with a perimiter fit shoe, if the sole is thin , the hoof capsule will continue to sink down without the proper support. A heart bar is a very sensitve animal, it is easy to get too much pressure or not enough. How deep was the WLD? I have seen it go almost the lenght of the hoof and completely separate the horn. If shoeing was called for I think a navicular bar with Equithane pad material filled in could help. With x-rays it should be easier to tell the sole depth and what your farrier has to work with. Keep in mind it can be trial and error sometimes to find what works. Good luck.

JB

[Rick Burten]

I too apply shoes in pairs unless there is some really good reason not to do so. And I agree with John that the heart bar shoe, while a good choice and effective, is technically one of the most difficult shoes to apply correctly. Why was the styrofoam not going to work/help?

Can you post some pictures of the feet, shoe, and radiographs?

Regardless, you now need to let the protocol have a chance to work. Just relax a bit(hard to do, I know) and give nature and tincture of time the opportunity to interact with the shoeing.

Rick

[cowgirl@heart]

Thank you for your replys, BJ & Rick!

I was told I needed only one shoe for "the****utic" reasons. The HBS was placed on the rim of the hoof...doesn't look like it is touching the sole, and it is enough pressure for the frog support.

To decided about using a shoe... the farrier (with the vet's being there in person watching), placed a "black rubber frog pad", (my only discription, poss. like a lily pad, as I understand) taped to her foot (the one that was extremely sore) I walked her, they saw immediate relief...not 100% better but alot of relief. They then took that off and taped a shoe to her foot to see if just placing the hoof (because her feet are flat) off the ground. Again, I walked her, there was slight relief. So, they thought the HBS would place the flat (bruised) sole up and support the frog at the same time.

I had always been taught to shoe, or trim, or wrap leggs like you mentioned... do it in pairs, both fronts or both backs, even if one leg only needs attention. His reasoning was...since she was just a pasture horse (we are just trying to make sound for pasture living, which is what I wanted) that she only needed one shoe... It has been 3 days (shoe put on Fri)...and she seems better as far as the limping is not as extreme, like it was before she didn't have any protection.

Today, she has not had any bute...(the vet wanted to get her off of it, today to see how she is actually feeling. I will post more in a few days to let you know how her "pain" level is doing.

I don't have a digital camera to download photo's, and thought it would take to long to get a photo on here. But will definitely look into it.

The X-rays do show there is a slight rotation, (vet is guessing MAYBE 5%) The sole is thin, to where the coffin bone sits...so yes, by carving too much sole...I can definitely see why she is so sore.

Honestly, I can't remember his reasoning behind the styrofoam not being used...except that something like the support that is needed for the coffin bone would not be there... I was listening, but trying to figure in my mind, what was going to happen if a shoe was put on...I was basically REALLY worried! And only listening and asking questions about the shoe. Because he doesn't believe in the foam. So, basically I felt I was at his mercy...unless, I knew more about what to say, to support my side of using the styrofoam.

Oh, and I forgot on my last post to tell you about what he thought of the WLD. He said it was miss diagnosed. He said it is seedy toe. I asked what I should put on it...he said, said he would not worry about it. He said there is not pain coming from it. The xray showed only a really slight area of where the outter hoof wall has been removed. So, I when I call my vet, to give him a report on how she is doing, I am going to ask what I can put on it.

I do agree with you Rick on giving it time to see if the shoe is going to work. (Which is REALLY hard for me to do)

I really appreciate ALL the comments/suggestions!!! I am so glad your out there to give your advice... times like these, sure makes a person WANT to be have the knowledge an experienced farrier has! Kris

[cowgirl@heart]

Hi,

Just a quick up date, my mare was totally off bute since Mon. AM and this morning (Tues) she is really lame. Not like before...but all 4 hooves have a strong pulse, she was picking up feet and putting them down. I called vet (he is gone for a week) I also let the farrier know. He wants to do a "Lamar???? something"...where he drills into the hoof to see if the interior is like infected or if it is plain blood. If it was blood he said that is a good sign that the interior is not damaged. It would tell what we are working with. I am not totally comfortable with doing it, however, I understand why a person would want to do it, but what are the cons of doing it? Am I opening up to another problem by doing it?

The farrier also suggested a blood test...(which I know Rick suggested earlier)

I put the horse back on 1 tab bute this morning.

Thanks once again, Kris

[Rick Burten]

Well, it sounds to me as though this mare is now laminitic or a reasonable fascimile there of. I would get her on styrofoam ASAP. With your vet out of town, you need to , if at all possible get another vet out to look at her. Also, cold hosing her hooves, or standing her in cold running water or buckets of ice may really help her out. you should discuss with your vet, having him/her administer some banamine(and stopping the bute useage).

Personally, I would not let the farrier go drilling holes in my horse's hooves.

Rick

[John Barney]

I agree with Rick, why drill a hole and cause possible infection if it isn't there? I can't imagine all four feet being infected to the point of lamness. Is she showing a founder stance or supporting her weight squarely on her feet? I would say you should have a competent horse vet out.

JB

[cowgirl@heart]

The day she was totally off bute, she did have a slight rocking back stance while standing and eating her hay. She would also pick her hind feet up, especially the RH. Then put it down more under her body. I do know what "the founder stance", looks like, and she is not at that point, just very slight. And, after her eating all her hay, she then goes about the pasture just grazing, her feet still warm w/strong pulse.

However, today, Wed. she has had now 2 total tab. of bute(1-Tues AM/1-PM). Her feet this morning are not hot, she doesn't have a pulse.

I also have her stalled in shavings (its all I have) about 6" deep. (since Tues. night).

Tonight after work, I was going to put the styrofoam on the three feet. The other RF has the HBS on.

I am finding also that I am not going to be able to keep her stalled, as she is chewing the wood too bad. I don't think that is good for her to eat wood.

My only other plan was to buy some sand put up a 12X12 roundpen panels to make like a stall outside. (so she is not chewing the wood) Last time I remember that vets wanted her to be in soft ground. My only concern with doing it, is I don't have a roof to put on it, and don't know if the sand would pack from the rain?

I am glad that you don't like the idea of drilling the hooves. My exact thoughts were what about starting an infection, when we are already dealing with a very sensitive area.

I have some BL solution (which is a buteless product) coming today (mail ordered) and was going to start to try to get her on that, then see how she does without the bute.

I have called and talked to the tech's at Advanced Biological Concepts, and they said to feed: BL Solution, Hoof, ABC Plus, Joint Jolt, and have Free Choice System Avail. Plus I have her on a product they call "Super Vit." Which is what naturpathic vets use for like an antibiotic, I think. (All herbal).

The farrier that put the HBS on has studied with a farrier named "Barney (something)???? from TX. I don't know if that helps to know the angle this farrier is coming from.

I will do the cold water, put the styrofoam on, tonight.

One question I do have...if this started on July 14, then how does it continue on w/o getting really bad? Why won't it just get worse? The Xrays taken on Sept. 28, showed very slight rotation (MAYBE 5%) on the RF hoof. The LF is normal. (we didn't do the rear feet, because there were no signs of lameness).

It has been 12 weeks today, since the onset.

What do you think about the old farrier saying she had WLD and this new farrier saying it is Seedy Toe? The vet and new farrier said the pain on the RF is not coming from the Seedy Toe. The pain is coming from inside the hoof.

As I look in my vet books, the seedy toe can be linked to Laminitis or Founder, the other WLD, isn't that from footing conditions the horse is in?

I again, appreciate your input! Kris

[cowgirl@heart]

Hi, I just wanted to give an update, I found a farrier who is does NB shoeing!

He took a look at the xray's and immediately said the past trim jobs have mis-aligned the bones in the hoof/pastern. He saw also that there was an imbalance in trimming at heel area, one side longer than other.

He put on shoe w/pad and impression material. Horse walked 50% better. Not sound but walked w/head down, relaxed. Also thinks horses laminitis is caused by short trim and basically that horses feet are traumatized.

So thank you to all that responded! I am so thankful!!
Blessings, Kris

[Tom Blasdell]

Good deal Kris I'm glad to hear you changed farriers.I was getting the filling that one was over it's head and had to much pride to ask for help.
The problem of spring & summer I think is to much Green feed. Sounds like your horse got to stay stuffed all the time.
Like some call it killing them with kindness.
Hey I just had to say my 2 cents.
Thomas westcoast