Definition of a true club foot?

[huntseatndressage]

How exactly is a club foot determined? Is it by an actual angle measurement?

[Ronald Aalders]

Anything above a 5 degree palmar angle. Personally I start worrying when the palmar angle is over 4 degrees, but I guess I'm the worrying type :D

To measure palmar angle you'll need a X ray from the side, (lateral-medial view) with the foot in a loaded position.

Your vet will know all about that.


Ronald Aalders

[Phil Armitage]

I learned a neat trick from Gene Ovyneck on how to identify a true club. A true club foot has shorter bars that are straight to slightly curved and it is a smaller foot. The more upright foot in a high low situation that are not truely clubbed have longer bars that are bent very curved. At least that is the way I understood it.

[Forgewizard]

Technically only a human has a club foot!

Personally I think that the term "club foot" is much over used in the horse world.

Often times people are so used to seeing a long toed, low heeled hoof that when they see a good hoof they think it is a club foot!

Or If the horse has an extreme hi/low syndrome which, contrary to popular belief, is NOT a difference in limb length but rather an anomalie in the way the horse stands - he leans! Check outwww.equinestudies.org the side he leans to will have the broader hoof.

A true upright hoof has a rather boxy appearance, often the dorsal wall is dished, the quarters tend to be straight, the heels contracted and the sole can range from extremely concave to fairly flattened. Frogs tend to be rather atrophied and the bars are quite prominent, usually folded over. Looking further up the leg the horse often is tied in severely at the knee, maybe even stands a bit over at the knee.

There are variations of the upright (so called club foot) too: a bear foot and a stilt foot. Where the hoof has literally knuckled over and the horse is walkning on the dorsal surface.

A hi/low syndromed horse can be exercised and stretched and encouraged to stand and use himself more equally. Which eventually results in more even hoof shape.

A true upright hoof cannot be changed - but rather must be maintained.

[Dave Purves]

Does this count?

Dave

[Rick Burten]

Does this count?

Dave

It would in my book.

[TE Couch]

Dave - do you have a sole view of that hoof?

TE

[Dave Purves]

TE, unfortunately I don't. For some reason I just wasn't thinking the day this horse came in the shop. But I will take a couple this week, problem is it will be after the trim. I'm going to pull his shoes and do some "research". Take some pics and video, and then put the package I have him in, back on and do some more "research". I do have the "after trim" lateral view, and a view from the back.

Dave

[kanderso]

Does this count? Dave

Probably, but the hoof wall doesn't seem to have any of the dishing that one would normally see in a club foot. This hoof doesn't even have a steeper part growing out of the coronary, which I'm guessing may be because it's been kept trimmed?

Kris

[huntseatndressage]

To measure palmar angle you'll need a X ray from the side, (lateral-medial view) with the foot in a loaded position.

I suspected a radiograph was the true way to find a club if it was not entirely obvious (such as the pics posted here).


Or If the horse has an extreme hi/low syndrome which, contrary to popular belief, is NOT a difference in limb length but rather an anomalie in the way the horse stands - he leans!

Interesting...and I did go to the website and found where the topic was brought up, but I never found anything other than theoretical discussion. Is there anyway to measure for this? Anything one can do to find out if this is the case or not?

Thanks everyone!

[TE Couch]

Is the back view before or after trimming? - there is alot of bulb contraction
TE

[Dave Purves]

The back view is before trimming. If you look close you'll see that the toe and toe quarters of this foot have been chipped off, I believe this is the part you would notice the "dishing" in, except he's chipped it off.

Dave

[calshoer]

There are several criteria I use , some mine and some learned from Gene to determine if a taller foot is truly a club foot or just one that needs the heels trimmed (and CAN have them) lower.
HEELS: In a club foot the heel butresses terminate back near the widest part of the frog, even though they are tall. The bars will be relatively straight, but the very ends of the heels will have a sharp curve. This compared to a foot that is just too tall but a can be trimmed. Those have heels curled forward some , the bars are bent outward, and the buttresses end more forward of the widest part of the frog.
SOLE:The club foot will have live sole which, when you trim following it , still leaves the foot taller. The foot that is tall but needs heels trimmed has depth down to the live sole so when you follow it the heels are made lower.
PILLARS: the toe pillarsof a club foto a re longer, extending further back around the foot.
SHAPE: the club foot is usually more boxy and narrow, straighter in the quarters. It may not have any dish if it a well maintained mild case. The too tall foot is usually a bit rounder, often with flares in the quarters.
FOOTFALL: A club foot will usually land flat or barely heel first even with all that heel. If you trim the heels very much they often change to toe first .. A foot that is tall but needs the heels trimmed still will often still land heel first even after the tall heels are greatly reduced.
WIDEST PART:The widest part of the foot is further back in the club foot.
Here is a picture of the bottom of a true club foot. The trim is not quite complete in this picture because the left bar was trimmed more after it was taken , which and it was straight under that little bend on the surface. It got bent because the previous farrier had created a serious medial lateral imbalance in this case and that heel was taller. Look at the pillars, (they are the shinier,darker strips of sole in the toe corners. See how they extend further back along the sides? And note the sharp little bends in the very ends of the heels. This is all typical of a moderate club foot.
Patty

[calshoer]

Here is an explanation of why the sole pillars are longer and narrower in a club foot (in case anyone is interested :)
Long term steep angle of P3 creates remodelling of the anterior distal end of the bone. It flattens in the tip. This creates a sort of "rocking chair" shape to the bottom . That flatter area is where the sole grows down from, so you end up with pillars that correspond to the flatter shape of the bottom of the front of the bone. One club foot and one near zero palmer angle, same horse. Two completely different bone shapes.(I exaggerated the line a little so you could spot the difference easier, but this one is very mild. Some have extreme remodelling)
Patty

[huntseatndressage]

Excellent information! Thanks!

Is it more conclusive to look at these things on a newly trimmed foot or is the outgrowth better?

Here's where my questions are coming from: This is the mare that I wrote about last month with a "surprise" thrush infection and had questions about the treatment that Roy A. posted. A few years back, a farrier had felt her LF foot was characterist of a club foot but that the angles were not severe enough to truely be classified as clubbed (he never suggested radiographs). His theory was the leg itself was shorter; her knees were even, however the point of her shoulder on this leg is lower and when viewing over her back from the rear, the hollow along side her wither is deeper on this side. He shod her with a rim pad on that side, and no pad on the RF.

When I switched barns after that, the barn was not enthusiastic about shoes and encouraged me to let her go barefoot. I mentioned the "shorter leg problem" and that barn farrier said it wouldn't be a problem. I decided to have to shoes pulled in part because of the new farrier's advice, as well as the fact that due to my new job her work load was going to be significantly less. Since then, she has remained barefoot. I have mentioned the "clubbiness" to subsequent farriers and none have offered much of an opinion or felt that they needed to do anything different for her.

This spring, I moved barns again into a different state and the farrier I was using at the time left the business. I started using the farrier others in the barn used (had been recommended by the local vet clinic) and that's when my problems started with on/off lameness and then the trush infection. We had been trimming every four weeks over the summer and nothing was ever said about dropping back to six/eight weeks heading into fall. Her last trim was Oct. 8, and she had been sore on her fronts ever since (most noticeably RF). I called the farrier about a week after the trim because of her soreness; he stopped by, watched her walk and trot and said he probably cut her too short. The following week is when the thrush infection showed up in the LF. The next trim was due on Nov. 5. In the meantime, I felt I had given this guy enough chances and couldn't take anymore of my horses being sore. I contacted Cody at NB and he sent referrals for my area. One that he highly recommended agreed to come out and have a look.

The new farrier came out on Nov 2. He felt there wasn't much he could do at the time since there was almost no foot to work with on either of my horses, but he did take some heel back on both of them.

When I pointed out the "clubby type" foot to him, he said there was a 4 degree difference between the two front feet and that he would say yes, it is a club foot. He noted the difference in her shoulder heights and felt that I needed to have a chiro consult. We tried putting a small block of wood under that foot to see if it raised her shoulders to be more even, but it did not. He also used hoof testers and found that she was sore across the tip of the coffin bone on her low foot.

So, my next step is to have radiographs done to check the palmar angle.

I have never noticed this foot giving her a problem before when riding. No lameness there or shortened stride. It was only the past few months when lamenesses/soreness started showing up in her front end.

Interestingly, since having a few minor heel/breakover adjustments (rasping only) on the 2nd, this past week she's been completely sound in hand, even trotting on concrete. She has also stopped dragging her back toes, which she has done for at least the past seven years. It'll be interesting to see if she is still sore with hoof testers. I have used Keratex on her three times in the past 10 days, mostly due to the rain we had over the last weekend.

I do have a photo of her foot from Oct. 30, which was about three and a half weeks after her last trim, and a few days before the new farrier came
Left Front Foot (http://photobucket.com/albums/c85/sarahnevitt/Nikki/?action=view&current=NikkiLF2.jpg)

Now, after seeing the examples Patty posted, I think I am seeing a bit of curve in the heel/bar area on the inside? I'm still not sure what the "heel butresses" exactly are.