Newbie......and need advice

[Thunder01]

I am not a Farrier but was trained by one and all i do is trimming so i didn't think i fit in the Farrier section. I recently was asked to trim a 12 year old QH gelding for a friend. From what i know, he has had shoes up until 2 months ago and is now lame in his RF. He hardly walks and stands only on his toe. They wanted to put him in pasture to be in a natural setting but he can't hardly walk so they are afraid to. They want to keep him barefoot. I am very interested in the NB trimming and feel it would be the right way to go but i was hoping someone could give me tips on trimming this foot. I attached pics (not great) for reference. Any advice would be greatful. Thanks.

[Gary Hill]

I think you need to roll the toe on this horse's feet and address the flares on the front of the foot. Looks like you have the heels down OK but can't see due to the dirt in the foot. Good Luck! Gary

[caballus]

I agree -- I would bring the toe back pretty aggressively and roll it well. Rid the foot of the flare from the top while on the stand, trying to get the same angle of hoof wall as the angle of the first inch or so from the periople down. This is the new hoof growing in and is showing you the correct angle for the toe. I've done simple markups on the photos below:

The heels look 'OK' from what I can see; If the horse is standing on the toe I'd probably not do too much to the heels except maybe rocker them slightly. Yep, rocker the heels. Just one or two trimmings to get the balance of weight bearing back and help the horse to land heel first. I don't know if I'd rocker the toes at all cause I can't see the apex of the frog clearly to see what kind of concavity is there so don't know how much sole thickness you're working with. That would help the heel first landing, also, if you can do that. Otherwise, the good, strong mustang roll will help almost as well.

--Gwen

[Thunder01]

I agree -- I would bring the toe back pretty aggressively and roll it well. Rid the foot of the flare from the top while on the stand, trying to get the same angle of hoof wall as the angle of the first inch or so from the periople down. This is the new hoof growing in and is showing you the correct angle for the toe. I've done simple markups on the photos below:

The heels look 'OK' from what I can see; If the horse is standing on the toe I'd probably not do too much to the heels except maybe rocker them slightly. Yep, rocker the heels. Just one or two trimmings to get the balance of weight bearing back and help the horse to land heel first. I don't know if I'd rocker the toes at all cause I can't see the apex of the frog clearly to see what kind of concavity is there so don't know how much sole thickness you're working with. That would help the heel first landing, also, if you can do that. Otherwise, the good, strong mustang roll will help almost as well.

--Gwen

Great, thank you. I had definately planned on doing a good mustang roll. The apex of the frog is lower then the back of the frog and the tip is at the mid point of the hoof (where the widest part is). The sole is hardly concave and is very flat. No real flacky sole but more solid. I am confused on the frog height. I have read that it should be lower than the heels and i have read that it should be the same height. Which is the case? His frogs are a little lower than the heels. The owners put old mac boots on him today and said that he walked much better but still limped a little. If i do this correct trim, will it lesson some of his pain? I'm not sure what you mean by rocker the heel. You mean like the toe? Roll it? I have never done it on a heel. Thanks alot for all your tips.

[Phil Armitage]

I recommend you use a lot of caution. You could be stareing at the tip of P3 if your not carefull. Distortion in the toe, flat sole and apex of the frog that close to the ground you might be dealing with founder. Maybe rotated or even a sinker. I would request X-Rays. Maybe it is as simple as retained sole and frog, maybe not hard to tell from the photo. If you know what to look for in the sole you can figure it out.

[caballus]

The heels should be just at the height of or a bit higher than the frog. A general rule of thumb is that the heels should be about 1/8 - 1/4" above the sole at the seat of corn. The photo shows a good example of heel height with passive frog contacthttp://www.barefoottrim.com/physiology/partso5.jpg .

I concur with Phil ... if you've got a very flat foot then there may be more going on than "meets the eye". You do NOT want to rocker the toes if you've got a flat foot or a foot that may be laminitic. The major weight bearing load should occur in the back 2/3rds of the hoof. 1/3rd should be from the widest point of the hoof to the breakover towards the toe. Your hoof is definitely longer than the ideal baselines in this regard. Bringing the toes back will help with this balance. Do NOT trim the sole at all except to level. If the hoof is flat then it needs to grow some sole and sole callous and will, as a result, develop concavity as the hoof rehabs.

I have some good illustrations and baselines for a natural, barefoot hoof on my site at www.barefoottrim.com. There's also good info at www.barefoothorse.com and www.hoofrehab.com. The Natural Balance site (Gene Ovnicek's) is www.hopeforsoundness.com ... that explains the "rocker" of the front toe. Does not explain the heel rocker. I believe you can find more info on the heel rocker at hoofrehab.com in the "articles" section but I'm not entirely sure of that.

[calshoer]

I think you need to bring in a more experienced professional, and get the vet involved to get some Xrays.
You are likely dealing with chronic laminitis/founder and if you have to ask these questions at all, this is over your head.
The horse should not be walking on his toe on that foot just from the looks of it. So there may be some foot pain going on,(or tendon pain, did you remove a lot of heel?). You need to know the cause before you trim any more.
At any rate do NOT trim ANY SOLE off this foot until you get the vet and some Xrays. The cofffin bone is very likely right under the bulge in the sole,(about halfway between the end of thestretched toe and the end of the frog), and you may easily expose or damage it. I would be shoeing a foot like this, not barefoot trimming it.
Patty

[caballus]

In looking again at the photos, and reading responses, I don't feel that "founder" is likely given the horse is standing on his toes and walking on his toes. If founder were to be existing then the horse would be weighting on his heels to relieve the pressure and pain in his toes. He'd have a strong digital pulse and heat in the hooves, also. I also don't see a "bulge" in the toe, as to what was alluded, as there is definitely dirt trapped in that slight concavity. Caudal heel pain? Yes, that is certainly in line with the bruising evident on the heels and the description of the movement and the positioning when static. Stretched white line? Yep, that too, is most possible given the length of the toe. But the caudal heel pain is what I would be primarily suspecting. The DC has just not had time to repair and remodel itself in order to give adequate cushioning and shock absorption as nature intended, yet.

Again, as iterated from us all, do not take any sole from this horse! But bring the toes back and in doing so, you'll be relieving some of the pressure on the heels and this horse will probably feel a bit better. I *would* turn him out with other horses (on a sparse to dry lot) to move him around and I'd be spreading his hay/feed all over the place to encourage more movement. I'd also cut out any sugars and excess carbs except those found in fresh vegetables and fruits (organic, if possible, or at least vine ripened). Just a handful or two a day. The body needs the glyconutrients found in just the vine ripened fresh greens and fruits to aid in repairing itself. Include flax seed and black oil sunflower seeds for Omegas in the "salad". I'd also feed a good, all inclusive vitamin/mineral/herb along with the free choice hay and veggies. I might even bute for a few days to encourage movement cause getting the blood circulating through movement is the best healer for hooves. You *can* also add some padding to the heels by taping on some styrofoam blocks cut out in the shape of the hoof. The styrofoam insulation sheets from Lowe's or Home depot can be easily cut in the shape of the hooves. Simply stand the hoof on the block of styrofoam then cut out the block around the impression the hoof made in it. If you duct tape it well, those will stay on even when turned out. That will help cushion the frog and heels.

But, that is what I'd do if I were the one caring for this horse. Even in the case of suspected laminitis or founder. I would expect, given a few days after getting the toes back, movement and herd life vs. solitary confinement, that he'll begin to feel a bit better.

Do be vigilant, always, for laminitis and founder. Know the symptoms. Always ask someone with more experience if you have serious doubts.

--Gwen

[Thunder01]

In looking again at the photos, and reading responses, I don't feel that "founder" is likely given the horse is standing on his toes and walking on his toes. If founder were to be existing then the horse would be weighting on his heels to relieve the pressure and pain in his toes. He'd have a strong digital pulse and heat in the hooves, also. I also don't see a "bulge" in the toe, as to what was alluded, as there is definitely dirt trapped in that slight concavity. Caudal heel pain? Yes, that is certainly in line with the bruising evident on the heels and the description of the movement and the positioning when static. Stretched white line? Yep, that too, is most possible given the length of the toe. But the caudal heel pain is what I would be primarily suspecting. The DC has just not had time to repair and remodel itself in order to give adequate cushioning and shock absorption as nature intended, yet.

Again, as iterated from us all, do not take any sole from this horse! But bring the toes back and in doing so, you'll be relieving some of the pressure on the heels and this horse will probably feel a bit better. I *would* turn him out with other horses (on a sparse to dry lot) to move him around and I'd be spreading his hay/feed all over the place to encourage more movement. I'd also cut out any sugars and excess carbs except those found in fresh vegetables and fruits (organic, if possible, or at least vine ripened). Just a handful or two a day. The body needs the glyconutrients found in just the vine ripened fresh greens and fruits to aid in repairing itself. Include flax seed and black oil sunflower seeds for Omegas in the "salad". I'd also feed a good, all inclusive vitamin/mineral/herb along with the free choice hay and veggies. I might even bute for a few days to encourage movement cause getting the blood circulating through movement is the best healer for hooves. You *can* also add some padding to the heels by taping on some styrofoam blocks cut out in the shape of the hoof. The styrofoam insulation sheets from Lowe's or Home depot can be easily cut in the shape of the hooves. Simply stand the hoof on the block of styrofoam then cut out the block around the impression the hoof made in it. If you duct tape it well, those will stay on even when turned out. That will help cushion the frog and heels.

But, that is what I'd do if I were the one caring for this horse. Even in the case of suspected laminitis or founder. I would expect, given a few days after getting the toes back, movement and herd life vs. solitary confinement, that he'll begin to feel a bit better.

Do be vigilant, always, for laminitis and founder. Know the symptoms. Always ask someone with more experience if you have serious doubts.

--Gwen

Thank you. I did bring back the toe and left the sole. Once i cleaned it good, there is concavity. The foot looks much better now but i did notice, upon cleaning up the toe, that there is a bruise under the hoof wall about halfway up. The owner is calling the vet to look at it. The owner also purchased old mac boots and put him in the pasture with their other horse. He walks almost sound with the boots on. They are also feeding him a biotin suppliment. I will be calling my mentor tonight to seek his advice also (he has been out of town). Thanks for the advice.