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SpiritHorse
10-20-2005, 12:29 AM
This started in July when my now ex shoers trimmed our two youngest horses ages 9 and 2 way too short.
I treated them with bute and they seemed to get over it just fine.
Now comes the next scheduled appointment the last day of Aug.
Again the two barnicle brothers trimmed them WAY to short again even after I mentioned the last episode.
Well the girls went bad again...
On Sept 9 I called for our vet who could not be there so I called another one and here is what all he had to say. He did Xrays on both.

The so called founder the 9yo old had was basically grow out from the May incident when we didn't get her up fast enough, he said in no way could she be that lame from it and his diagnosis on both were that they were WAY to short which boggled both of us as we know this farrier and never had a problem before with him.
Our girls are trimmed like clockwork.

He had us keep them in the barn lot, padded feet, buted.
Well they were in there for weeks when the rains came and I didn't get the barn cleaned out in time and rocks appeared so I called and the other vet at that clinic said it would be fine to let them out. So I did.
(Our barn in a run in cow barn)

Well the seemed ouchy but better, well,,,,the xrays came back the 9yo had NO rotation but the filly did!!! Under 5* and to keep her padded and bute for a few days.
Okay.........I even did the water bit on them.

Well now I asked how long before the younger gal should have another Xray he said about 6 weeks maybe longer since she had little rotation.
Okay I waited and padded when needed, buted and even had to give them Isoxiprine because our vet thought they had now foundered. (Road founder basically from impact on the soles)
They are on NO grain, they get a couple handfulls of pelleted feed so I can get my older mare out of the front pasture which is small and they have hay.

He also thought the short hooves again were to blame for the flare up.

Well I had the 2yo re Xrayed yesterday the 18th and this morning found out it was way worse now and both feet are involved, he said it didn't look good.
I called him later to have him measure the rotation * why he didn't I have no clue he just eyeballed it as my husband called it*

Well, now I am dispondant over this, I did everything told to me even stuff like the ice and water etc... They are not on lush grass, no grain and again lame.

I have a certified farrier coming out, I have to call our vet and let him know the guy is coming to look at her xrays and that he has our permission to do so. Our regular vet said put heartbar shoes on her and the guy wants to look it all over first, can understand that...

The both of them only act ouchy not horribly lame, when they do they get bute and they come back out of the bad pain and I am beside myself believe me.
Neither lay down more than normal, no unusual shifting of feet, no stance only like they stepped on a big rock!

I seen a post here about a horse that went 16* I read that 12* means lame for life..I hope this guy can help no matter what the degree she is my only foal that lived and she is my buddy!!! :(

Providing she has only rotated under the 12* can she come back to at least some kind of life????? Even if only a pasture pet..
Also, when I padded the filly with diapers with a partially rolled one at the heel she was speed walking and later was trotting, bucking and just being her again.
So I am praying shoes will do the trick although it will take time to at least undo some of the damage as not all will recover if I read some of the posts here right.

Anything else I can do for my babies,,,,the full hoof styrofoam won't stay on and I think it did more harm than good in this particular case I don't know.

Jeanie Connors
10-20-2005, 10:29 AM
SpiritHorse, the cause of the founder needs to be addressed, obviously as you already know, but there is no reason your filly should not make a full recovery. There are many different opinions on this, but I personally feel shoes are not necessary to heal a foundered horse, and they may even hinder.

I see you support the mustangs? :) There are a number of people around the country doing incredible work using a "wild horse" type of trim, that may be all your two horses need to set them up on the road to healing. I can recommend some books for you, if you'd like. I think you would get a lot out of them.

SpiritHorse
10-20-2005, 04:15 PM
Our new farrier just left a bit ago and seems the vet overreacted some about it. I don't blame him. Just hope he don't do it again LOL My poor nerves....
There is rotation but only 3 degrees a slight more in the left but nothing mud and since they are on a diet she is fine there. She should recover just fine.

It is not founder........he along with the one vet agree it was the short trim jobs that is doing all this. Cause they only get bad on hard ground.
He said to call back in a month to check them and earlier on my older gals if needed and that the shoes are not needed since we have mud here and padding should help tremenously. He said to keep her in mud and keep the debris out and she will be fine.
Time and some effort is best.

You know he seems so up to date, I forgot to ask about if he knew the Mustang trim I would rather do away with shoes if a horse can hold himself on bare feet.

I am so happy you could not believe after all the stories I have been reading it could be so much worse.
Not out of the woods yet but well on our way!!!
They were normal today woo hoo!!!!

Seems what I have been doing is what he says to do too!!!

Now if I could legally slap the tar out of their former farrier I would be happy enough to let it go LOL

I am so glad for this board and will add a link to it once I redo our farm's website!!!!

caballus
10-20-2005, 06:45 PM
Ummmm, I'm confused here ... if there is rotation then there is founder? That's what "Founder" is ... the 3rd stage of Laminitis. Who said it wasn't founder?

--Gwen

calshoer
10-20-2005, 07:43 PM
Pictures and the Xrays would sure help here a lot.
Patty

John Barney
10-21-2005, 10:18 AM
I agree rotation means laminitis which means founder. Are you by chance around Warrensburg? I may have seen the x-rays. Sounds very similar to some the vet showed me earlier this week.

JB

Tom Stovall, CJF
10-21-2005, 05:04 PM
John Barney in gray

I agree rotation means laminitis which means founder.

"Founder" refers to a partial laminar dysfunction that results in a non-parallel relationship between the dorsal surface of P3 and the hoof wall, it does not necessarily mean "laminitis" - which is inflammation of the laminae - and a laminitic episode is not necessarily followed by founder.

Systemic founder is usually bilateral, usually preceded by laminitis, and refers to a non-parallel relationship between the wall and P3 that is caused by laminar dysfunction and results in the downward rotation of P3 due primarily to the pull of the DDFT; secondarily, by the push of involved hydraulics.

Mechanical founder is sometimes unilateral, often followed by laminitis, and refers to the wall's initially being torn away from P3 by mechanical means, not by the pull of the DDFT or hydraulics. :)

SpiritHorse
10-24-2005, 10:47 PM
My bad what I should have said was this, it was not grass founder but laminitis and the filly later road foundered. I forgot the grass part darn it!!!
I am having difficulty in putting words to posts please bear with me....

Short and I mean short feet on hard ground was the trigger.
This is what I understood of all of it.

The PH vet has horses from what I have been told and knows the guy and he was shocked to say the least.

I did have Xrays done and the third set will be done in a month or so.
Our farrier said no trims or nothing for a month and go from there, the older of the two is back to normal, the filly is striding along nicely now. He has them in mud therapy I guess you could call it....

Hay is all the basically get, a handful of grain to keep them busy while I move my older mare out to feed her. So as not to aggrivate it any further.

Hey John I was raised in Leeton!!!

The Xrays were done first by Pleasant HIll then the second set by Holden Animal Clinic.

All was basically said was Laminitis by the first vet and the filly later basically road foundered due to walking on short feet and hard ground. That is where the rotation came in.

The filly never had a lameness problem that wasn't from an injury she got at 15 months old, she has never had any type of leg problems prior or after until this bad trim episode. The older horse has begun to come out of the lameness once the hooves have start to grow a bit more.

I am sorry to have confused you guys it has been a scary ordeal for us and the girls are getting back to themselves.

Is this caused by short trims I believe this one sounded like the diagnosis

Mechanical founder is sometimes unilateral, often followed by laminitis, and refers to the wall's initially being torn away from P3 by mechanical means, not by the pull of the DDFT or hydraulics


I am still reading everything I can get my hands on about this so any links or books would be great if you have a good one to suggest!!!

Thanks :D

John Barney
10-26-2005, 12:01 AM
Wow, that sounds like something that happened over this way. If your new farrier has things in hand you better treat him/her right. Give them a few months , it takes a while sometimes. If not, you know I am on this board let me know and I can take a look. Good luck, wish you the best.

JB

SpiritHorse
10-27-2005, 02:56 AM
John I have always treated the other farrier with kindness, that is why it hurt to see this happen, I keep asking myself why they did this.
You have a PM......




Wow, that sounds like something that happened over this way. If your new farrier has things in hand you better treat him/her right. Give them a few months , it takes a while sometimes. If not, you know I am on this board let me know and I can take a look. Good luck, wish you the best.

JB