Help with pigeon toes

[Gilly1331]

I am in need of a Farrier who specializes in horses with problem feet. I have a horse who is pigeon toed and need someone who is extremely experienced with this problem. I had a farrier for a while who trimmed my horse great...but then added shoes that ended up having a horrible effect on his feet... I then tried a natural trimmer and that only has made it worse. She is great with the horses and trimmed my other horse perfectly but the pigeon toes have gotten worse and need special attention...he is now off if he does anything other than a walk and the bottom of his foot now has 2 outer rims (dont know how else to explain it)and a single rim on the inside. I have an appointment with a new Vet in the next week and I am going to ask him who he reccomends but I figured I'd ask on her too.

I have updated the photos on his feet in the link at the bottom of my post. The original photos are from July 6th, 2005 after removing a set of corrective shoes that ended up going wrong and that farrier saying call me in 6 months.... to now the natural trimmer...He is due this week to be trimmed again. we do every 5 weeks. The new set of pics are from this morning October 5th, 2005.

He was trimmed exactly 5 weeks ago tomorrow. Those pics are at 5 weeks long since his last trim. I am not trying to fix his bones or anything of that sort. I just want him to be cormfortable and not off. He was never lame up until we started doing the natural trimming. His fronts are super sensitive since this type of trimming and since the shoes have been off. This natural trimmer doesnt seem to do very much she takes off very little and in some places hardly any at all. She said she just wants to make in even all around and leaves it at that. I am unsure of where to turn...should i stay with the natural trimmer? Should I go back to my old farrier he trimmed him awesome and never made him lame just tell him NO SHOES? I am unsure? I dont know much about shoes at all...thanks for all your help keep commenting.

I had a farrier use corrective shoes on him for 1 year. They had done a very good job up until the last shoeing that was done back in June 2005. The last shoeing had started to separate the back of his hoof from his bulbs. So that farrier pulled the shoes (pics from July 6th) and said call me in 6 months...he gave me a rasp and said keep his feet flat. I then called in the natural trimmer and since she started working on him his feet are very sensitive to rocks while riding...we only do about 15 -20 min rides and only at the walk. He is due to be trimmed this week but it seems the natural trimmer just takes a bit off and doesnt make the foot look as good as the farrier who had put shoes on him. I liked how the old farrier had trimmed him and he was never lame...now in the past 2 months or so my poor guy has been on and off.

I need some help on what to do...i know my post is all over the place...thanks in advance...

http://community.webshots.com/user/gilly1331 this is the link and click on gillys feet.

[Jeanie Connors]

I remember you posting these awhile back....I'm sorry to see the situation has worsened and Gilly is lame :( . From what I can see, the heels look like they've been left long and have started to get crushed from it.

Mind you, most "natural trimmers" will appear to leave most of the hoof alone....sometimes this is needed :) . You also might not like the finished hoof if you've been used to seeing more aggressive trimming and/or finishing, but it's all about what the hoof needs, not how it looks to us in the end. All of that said, I think those heels could have used some more attention than they got, but your best bet is to talk with the person who did them and ask them questions.

Something else I noticed with those feet/legs is the fetlock joint...it looks like it has gotten bigger on the outside since July. Have you consulted with your vet about the possibility of an issue in the joints? It could very well be that a disease in the joints is causing the worsened pigeon-toes, and the lameness.

In the end, your best option is to talk to your old farrier, and your trimmer, and see what they think. Explain that you just want what is best for Gilly (I'm sure you do :) ), and are trying to learn as much as possible to make that decision. I hope this helps :) .

[kanderso]

.... He is due to be trimmed this week but it seems the natural trimmer just takes a bit off and doesnt make the foot look as good as the farrier who had put shoes on him. I liked how the old farrier had trimmed him and he was never lame...now in the past 2 months or so my poor guy has been on and off.....

Give the natural trimmer a chance. I don't know how often s/he's been trimming him, but chances are good that it's going to take your horse some time to reshape his hooves and develop a thicker sole.

If the current farrier trims him for 6 months to a year and things haven't improved, then try another one, but his hooves aren't going to regrow and reshape overnight.

Do you have some kind of boots to put on the horse, to protect his hooves while they grow out? If you do put them on and compare the way he goes with boots to the way he goes without. That'll give you a better idea whether his problem is just that his soles are thin, or if he's developed joint, or other problems.

Kris

[calshoer]

Well first off, it is impossible to "correct" pigeon toe. Any farrier thinking he can will likely end up doing do just what you found out. He can twist the outer hoof around and unbalance it ,but the bones will always try to settle back where they where (and where they belong) and the whole outer hoof gets more twisted and distorted from the uneven loading stresses.
You CAN however manage pigeon toed feet in a fashion where the bone is level from side to side with the ground (though still pointing inward). That will help maintain as much soundness in the horse for as long as possible. And prevent undue hoof distortion.
From the pictures it appears the outside heel has been left much longer than the inside to try to staighten the feet. That approach is completely incorrect when the leg defect is rotational, as it is here. (Rotational means a twist in the fetlock or pastern bones).
Attempting to straighten the feet by unbalancing the feet (leaving the outside heel high) only shears the outside heel bulb and rotates the toe more inward.
Get a farrier or trimmer who will trim following the sole plane, no matter where that plane may be in relation to the rest of the leg. It may NOT be at a right angle to the leg ,and don't let someone imbalance the foot to try to make it at a right angle to the leg if it isn't.
If you look at the sole vs the wall length , you will see how much deeper the foot is on the outside heel from ground into the sole than the inside. That means more needs to come off the outside than the inside. In fact both hels are too tall, but the outside is even taller. Then just dress the flare off the inside toe from the FRONT, NOT shortening it from the bottom. The foot is so sheared right now that correction of the twist and shear heel in the outer capsule will take time.
However ,setting it up balanced to the sole, so the sole is level with the ground on the bottom no mater where the foot points, will allow the outer hoof capsule to begin to shift back around where it belongs and over time it will change to a better form.
Patty

[Gilly1331]

Thanks for the comments and suggestions I will bring these all up to my trimmer on monday...I know i cant correct his feet i just to make him comfortable and sounds enough to ride walk and a little trot around the yard and on the trails near my house...

Thanks keep any opinions coming.

[Jason Maki]

If I was faced with these feet, I would trim from the lateral bridge to the heel to the sole plane, take a nip from the midline of the toe to the medial bridge at the sole plane, dress the flare of and move on to the other feet. This will leave alot of unsheared wall bearing weight. Trim the other front(if sheared) the same,or actually a mirror image. then trim the hinds. I would put him away, do another horse, then look at the fronts again. With shears this massive, I would guess atleast 1/2 an inch of wall, sole and cartilage would have descended to the lateral aspect, and a some in the medial toe 1/4 as well.
Good Luck!
Jason

[Antionette]

Hello;
I had the very same problem with my 4 year old Standerdbred. At first he stumbled allot. However, now that my new Farrier has been working on his feet every 6 weeks, my horse doesn't stumble as much. Maybe 2 times when I ride. His feet at first were turned in, not too bad. But, you could tell. Now, his right foot is straight and his left foot is just alittle turned in. With all this work being done to his feet, I didn't think it would be wise riding him around. So, I didn't want to ride him not knowing if his bones would be affected. My Farrier did tell me that it is a slow process. I just wonder, how slow.

[Becki&Bugs]

I've read these posts and need a few q's answered. Both Calshoer and Jason Maki had wonderful info.
My "good" barrel horse prospect is also pigeon toed. He's stumbled so severely, that i actually fell off after he'd gone down on both front knees. I've not been unseated since I was tiny! For the first time in my life, I've got a "fear" about a horse. I've barrel raced all my life and done a lot of queening. You know how fast we go. Now, I don't even take this horse out of a trot. It's pretty sad! I've already got head trauma, an ACL replacement and two broken ribs from 3 stumbling incidents with this one horse. Yeah, I've got a right to be leary.
I've had folks say that pigeon toes isn't a defect (won't affect his resale value) and others say he's virtually worthless. What's the deal here?
Also, would the natural balance lite sport shoes help in his stumbling if applied right? My shoer is an Oklahoma grad, so hopefully, he'll read up on the shoes. But, my husband said it's rude to ask a shoer to "study up" and that I shouldn't give him info like all that's said here. ??? I won't continue to train this horse in order to sell him unless this issue can be "fixed." ANY advice would be great! Becki

[calshoer]

The brand or type of shoes really have nothing to do with the stumbling.
It is all about hoof balance, side to side (media lateral) and front to back.(anterior posterior) .
If the foot is not trimmed to its individual sole plane, say for example if the farrier is leaving one side higher to try to make it not so pigeon toed, it could be severely out of balance internally. That could likely cause the stumbling.
Other factors are heels left too long, toes left too long, breakover point too far forward.
If you walk this horse on flat hard ground is he landing heel first or toe first? if toe first ,you have some balance issues that need changing. A sound horse lands slighty heel first.
Also map the bottom of the foot out. draw a line across the widest part, which is usually about where the bars blend into the sole and about an inch back from the point of the frog.
Then measure from that line rearward to the back of the frog, and from the line forward to the place the foot rolls over the toe of the shoe. (the breakover point) There should be more in the back than in the front. If the ratios are opposite, you have a balance problem. Horses with more distance in front of the WP line than behind it may tend to be stumbly. it has to do with the heels ending to ofar forward, and the toe creating leverage on internal structures. Hoof preperation and the shoe fit are more important than the type of shoe.

The NB lite shoes are a real nice shoe for the barrell racers,as are many other shoes, but the hoof trim and shoe placement has to be correct too.
As to the pigeon toe affecting his resale value, it depends on how severe, where the defect comes from. (just the foot is rotated inward, or are the knees sraight or offset too) , and if there are any other pathologies developing as a result of the pigeon toe. Certainly a speed horse in any discipline needs the best comnformation possible to stay sound, and any deviation like that will affect him in the long run.
Patty

[Becki&Bugs]

I asked my farrier and he said he's worked with these shoes before and is going to come out to do these measurements. We have not been trimming him to make his toes straighter. My vet just suggested he is still a juvenile and may be having issues with his big growth spurt (he turned 4 in June) and is likened to a middle school student who trips a lot. ?? My horse's toes are the only part of his leg affected and it isn't much. if it was really severe or noticable, I would not have purchased him. It is there, but he trots and lopes without spooning or any other effect. I just hope this tripping eases and eases my "fear" as well. I thank you for your advice and can't wait to try these shoes! :o

[Ronald Aalders]

If Becki&Bugs is the same as Gilli so&so, allow me to inform you the toeing in of the horse pictured is NOT a growth spurt.

I'm really surprised your vet suggests it is. Obviously vets get thought very strange things in vet school. Maybe we as farriers should attend that school too. It would make our lifes a lot easier! "No ma'm, don't worry about your horse being three legged lame, it's just a growth spurt!"


Ronald Aalders

[Becki&Bugs]

Ronald, I must have been misunderstood or said something wrong. I'm not gilli, but found her thread and wanted to join in. My vet didn't say the toeing in is correctable or a growth spurt, just that along with stumbling from his toes, some other stumbling may be because of a growth spurt. sorry I wasn't clearer. :confused: I'll try to get a pic tomorrow. I'm trying to include a pic of his feet. they aren't that bad, but the photo may not show it accurately. I'll try to get a good example tomorrow.

[calshoer]

It appears he is "bench" or "offset" kneed which is a common leg conformation defect that goes along with (and causes) the pigeon toe. That in itself will subject his legs to abnormal trauma and possible future knee injuries running at speed. Patty

[matryoshka]

I'm taking on a client who has a TB with rotational pigeon toes. Her crookedness starts at the fetlock joint. She hasn't been trimmed in a long time, so I get to see her natural wear pattern before trimming. She's a huge mover, but paddles.

Anyway, I'm posting this to say she never raced because she got a minute fracture in her fetlock joint while training. So, with pigeon toes as bad as Gilly shows, lameness could come from stress/strain on the joint, not just the hoof. Food for thought.

And please, please, don't let anybody try to correct rotational crookedness on older horses through trimming and shoeing. I've seen some rotated hooves that become downright painful for the horse and take months to straighten out (i.e. to be able to draw a vertical line from the center front of the coronet to the center front of the hoof).

Pam

[Forgewizard]

I disagree that offset (bench) knees cause a horse to be pigeon toed. I see plenty of bench kneed horses (more so than straight legged horses) and there is not a prevalance of pigeon toes in the offset knees.

I see more pigeon toed conformation on base narrow horses especially if they have excessively wide chests.

I'll also see pigeon toes on horses that as foals were trimmed to counteract what is actually a normal toed out stance. Seems that some foals are wrongly trimmed like this because as youngsters their legs originate from the "same hole" and in order to remain standing the leg splays out. The hooves then get trimmed to "turn them straight". Then as the foal develops a chest this pushes the upper part of his legs apart and lo and behold the lower legs are actually turned in!

I've seen this on both fore and hind legs with the same results. This iswhy it is so important to view the entire limb when trimming or shoeing. You have to level the hoof with the WHOLE limb and look for a central line through the entire limb - not just the fetlock down.

Offset knees are easily trimmed and shod if you realize that the line of his concussion is NOT central to the limb.

When trimmming it IS necessary to constantly strive for an aligned hoof. This hoof is definitely lopsided.

This horse does seem to have a very wide chest for an Arab as well as offset knees. So while he doesn't have a straight central line of concussion neither does he have a plumb limb. His knees also rotate outward.

If he gets trimmed so that his hooves are level to the limb and facing the same way his knees do you may see a tremendous difference in his movement and stance!

From the captions under these pix he is obviously getting worse and the stress is showing in the joints. I would definitely NOT add to these joint stresses by racing or jumping this horse as the photos are illustrating!

I would also incorporate physical therapy and stretching to facilitate restructuring of the tightening ligaments and tendons.

I have yet to locate the perfectly plumbed horse and people need to rearrange their ideas of looking at horse's conformation. The reference points for straightness need to change. Dropping imaginary lines from points of shoulders and points of buttocks is NOT, I repeat NOT the way to evaluate limb correctness! Limb assembly is right in front of our eyes and doesn't get any harder lined than the bony structure evident!

You can't understand this until you stop looking at horses from just a front, side or rear view. You have to view each limb seperately and in order to do that you have to place yourself directly in front of each knee or behind each hock.

To see what I mean look at the photo of "gilly & chance" on that photo page. The photo was taken almost directly in front of the face of his near fore knee. This is a good shot of that limb. You can see that the fetlock and knee face the same way, but his hoof faces inward as well as it is not level with the limb. WHile his other knee rotates in the opposite direction. The knots showing in his fetlocks are a direct result of the severe loading received from this twisting of the joint.

As to whether these knots have developed into calcifications and are now contributing to a permanently twisted joint- only an xray and time will prove.

Look closely at most legs and you will often see an actual "seam" in the hairs that follow the center of that portion of the limb! This hair seam can be found both anteriorly and posteriorly on each limb. For those few horses that don't have this seam, if you have observed enough horses you can train your eye to see the true center of the limb.

Quite often the upper and lower limbs are off center or malaligned, In these cases once the hoof is trimmed level in order to keep the joints evenly loaded, it becomes necessary to shoe the horse so that there is "hoof" where there ought to be hoof, in order to keep the hoof centered under the limb.

Learn to find the center of the hoof and make sure the hoof gets trimmed so that it faces the same way the knee (or stifle) faces. This is most often outwardly turned. Let the hoof support the limb the way the limb was put together and THEN your horse will move as best it can!

[qualtrans]

Kind of late after your original post. I'm NOT a farrier, or a vet. But I have a 17 year old, 14.2 hand Morgan who toes-in drastically. That means she's very pigeon-toed.

With proper shoeing and trimming, balanced so her foot lands level, not so her toes point straight while standing still, she is extremely sound. She has competed in eventing up to Preliminary level (means she was jumping solid fences as stall as her withers and just as wide) at speed, doing dressage and show jumping. Now she foxhunts, works very hard those days, covers 12-20 miles on a day of hunting, up and down hills, at trot, canter and gallop. She has plain steel shoes. She is sound and fit.

Make sure your shoer doesn't think you want to make this horse stand straight. He never will, if you want him sound. His bones and all his soft tissues have settled into place to adjust to the pigeon-toed conformation. Although it's not pleasing to the eye, that is what's "natural" for him. Trying to make him stand straight will stress those joints out of the position in which they have settled and will make him sore.

Listen to what Calshoer and others are saying to you.

Good luck.
Cindy