Jam and position of P3

[Ronald Aalders]

Hi boys and girls,

Sometimes I feel like I never learned anything all those years. I really wonder why people keep flying me from one place to another.

What's been on my mind lately is the postion of P3 within the hoofcapsule in AP view. Patty (that would be the girl behind the Calshoer bushes :D Sorry Patty I hate those internet handles........) described a way to find the live sole that is equidistant (is that English?) from the bottom of P3. Pare away flaky, crumbled sole until you get to this cheese like sole. If performed correctly it will get you a sole that's equally thick covering the ventral surface of P3. Trimming the walls accordingly would even out P3 parallel to the ground.

I like that concept. Right here I can tell you that if I had a good way to trim a horse in a way that would get his P3 parallel to the ground (each and every time on every horse.........) I'd go for it. If given enough time we'll come up with some draw backs getting horses' P3 parallel to the ground every time, but on the whole we'ld be doing a pretty good job that way.

In a book about laminitis Ric Redden once wrote ('Understanding Laminitis') there is this picture about a one sided sinker (#1). I don't know about you guys but I had a hard time figuring out which side sunk. If you look at the compression on the right side of the pic and try and visualize the bony column you'll agree that its the right side in the picture, right?

So if we skip the sinker problem here, which side would the horse land on? Most likely the left side in the pic. So if we want to get this horse to land even we need to get P3 parallel to the ground. To do this we need to drop the left side wall. Which figures because according to me the right side sunk.

The thing is the right side is jammed! So normally I'd lower that side to ease off the jam. And that works a lot of times. It takes some time to get P3 and the laminar bond readjusted and in the end its never perfect, but a lot better than it was before.

So with all this expertise I went out and worked on this pony :cool: . #2 pic. This horse has a club foot history. This is RF. (So medial would be right in the pic) The ML is a lot better but the AP did not improve much. As you can see this foot is jammed on the medial side. The horse lands big time on the lateral side. If I would lower that side, I´ld get this foot even more out of whack, right? Further the jam is medial and if you look at the sole of the foot, the medial side has flaky, crumbled sole while the lateral side is nice and strong. Next to the jam, another reason to lower the medial side. Right?

Wrong. I have asked the owners to have X rays made because I could not figure it out. (#3) The posting here does not help detail but if you look closely you'll notice that the joint spaces are uneven towards the lateral side, the lower side of the foot and the side the horse lands on. To ease off the compression here I should lower the lateral side instead of the medial side!.

What do you guys think?


Ronald Aalders

[caballus]

Only one pic showing up?

--Gwen

[Ronald Aalders]

Gimme a sec here, this aint easy for me you know! Computer stuff........


Ronald Aalders

[Jaye Perry]

Sometimes I feel like I never learned anything all those years. I really wonder why people keep flying me from one place to another.

What's been on my mind lately is the postion of P3 within the hoofcapsule in AP view. ......If performed correctly it will get you a sole that's equally thick covering the ventral surface of P3. Trimming the walls accordingly would even out P3 parallel to the ground.

I like that concept. Right here I can tell you that if I had a good way to trim a horse in a way that would get his P3 parallel to the ground

Ronald Aalders

Me Too.

Trim to the Solar Foremen, Holes in P3 in the A/P shot of an X-ray. These holes are for the circomflex artery. Level these, if possible, and the foot and leg are pretty much aligned. IMO

Jaye

[caballus]

http://www.barefoottrim.com/ronaldhooves.html


You can judge where the bottom of the P3 is by the collateral grooves and their depth. Given that they are pretty constant in their distance from the P3 (sole thickness), take a look at where the deepest part of the groove is (towards the heels) and then add 1/2 - 3/4" to it for sole thickness and that will give you the relative placement of the bottom of the P3 at that point, on that side of the hoof. The same applies at the apex of the frog. If one groove in one side heel area is shallow while the other is relatively deeper then you know you've got a laterally rotated P3. Use that as your guide for trimming down the heel area. I would level this hoof off so it is balanced, level and the hairline is as level as possible without soring the horse. If needed, I would go in and trim up little bits every couple of weeks until the bony column and joints have aligned.

I have 2 horses right now that I'm working on in the same sort of situation with lateral rotations. Takes time.

--Gwen

[Ronald Aalders]

Thank you Gwen, but what I would like to know is why the medial side of the foot I described is jammed, coronary band pushed up, while at the same time the lateral side of the digit's joint spaces is compressed. It looks contradictory to me.

I like the thought on aligning the holes the cir***flex artery runs through! I didn't think of that one but usually they're a much clearer to see than the border of P3. Thanks Jaye.


Ronald Aalders

[Mike Ferrara]

Thank you Gwen, but what I would like to know is why the medial side of the foot I described is jammed, coronary band pushed up, while at the same time the lateral side of the digit's joint spaces is compressed. It looks contradictory to me.

I like the thought on aligning the holes the cir***flex artery runs through! I didn't think of that one but usually they're a much clearer to see than the border of P3. Thanks Jaye.


Ronald Aalders

I guess I've tried to ask similar questions before here. I didn't do it as well and I didn't have radiographs but I don't remember any one responding. I think the answer to the apparant contradiction lies in our understanding (or lack of it) of what causes sheared heels. The common explaination is weight bearing. ok but static, dynamic or both? In addition why did the good doc (euipodiatry.com)...find that he couldn't cause shearing when he tried to on a number of horses? Personally, I don't think the heels are going to shear or jam unless there's a problem in the first place. BTW, I see a lot of it on the underrun quarterhorses around here and trimming the heels to even hight alone doesn't seem to streighten them out either. that doesn't really provide much info because some of these horses aren't done as often as I would like and I haven't been doing them that long so I get a snapshot of their life with limited control. Backi to weight bearing/impact I don't know that the side that hits first or the high side is really the side that's always taking the beating. Logic would suggest that one of two things is true...either it's the jammed side taking the beating OR it's the jammed side that can't handle the beating it does get regardless of how it compares to the beating the other side is getting. I do know that when you trim some of these feet to have even hight heels from the hairline at the heel they'll look like they're standing on the side of a mountain when you look at them with their feet on the ground. There's very little that I'll try to put over as fact but one thing I have learned is that when it looks wrong it usually is and that looks VERY wrong.

[Ronald Aalders]

Mike has a point here I think. One thing is very important here IMO and that's this enzyme controlled system that attaches the laminae to the coffin bone, loosens that bond and reattaches as the hoofwall grows while P3 stays put (well let's hope it does :rolleyes: ).

I'm pretty sure that by applying stress to heels or other parts of the foot the hoofcapsule can get distorted while P3 stays more or less in place, because the reattachment procedure just attaches the laminae a little lower when a wall get jammed up.

That's why when I even out heels, the foot twists all over the place and I often end up with a worse looking foot then before heels were level. In time the same attachment/reattachment system evens out and feet start to look better.



Ronald Aalders

[calshoer]

Sorry about the internet handle, it has been the same for ten years and everyone just knows me by that on every forum.
OK, here goes....I am guessing that the foot swings inward in flight before it lands lateral toe. This due to the off-level conformation of the fetlock joint (the medial proximal end of P1 apearing longer than the lateral side. So there is probably nothing you can do about the lateral landing. Forget even trying.
And forget looking at the hairline too, because it can and will change.
As to the apparent uneven joint spaces on loading, here is what I would do.
I would still follow the sole plane for trimming, removing more wall off the medial side .Then take another Xray, insuring the horse did not lean one way or the other the second the picture was taken.I think that may be where the confusion was. All it takes is for the horse to turn his head to the right the second they took the picture to change those joint spaces. That COULD be why the distal joints appear mashed on tha lateral side. One second before or after they may have been perfectly level. I have seen it happen dozens of times. Take one pic the joint spaces look even, take another a second later they do not, or visa versa.
Also, it seems the Xrays beam was not perfectly level to the ground as the shoe does not appear level front to back)or was it a banana shoe?) so if they can get that dialed in you may well see another view of the bottom of P3.
So trim to the sole, take another pic and see what you get. Look at the bottom of p3 to the ground. Also If the blocks had wires imbedded in the top, the ground level would be more visible.
Patty

[Donnie Walker]

Ronald - if you have THE VETERINARARY CLINICS of North America publication go to page 442 thru 462, Hoof Capsule Distortion: understanding the mechanisms as a basis for rational magagement, by Dr. Redden. He addresses some of the concerns you have.

If you don't have it and would like to read the material I will send it by e-mail if you will let me know via private e-mail.

[Phil Armitage]

Ron, did this pony have laminitis?

[Roy Amaral CJF]

Me Too.

Trim to the Solar Foremen, Holes in P3 in the A/P shot of an X-ray. These holes are for the circomflex artery. Level these, if possible, and the foot and leg are pretty much aligned. IMO

Jaye

That's a gem right there. Thanks Jaye!

I don't trust the joint spacing from rads either. Too easy to get a bad picture and make things worse. :(

[Phil Armitage]

I don't know if that is a gem or not. My question is why do you want to level P-3 in this particular case, we can't see the whole horse, we do not know what is currently going on, have it's history nor are we able to watch the horse move. Why not apply foam blocks and see which way it crushes and also use it to provide support and unload the hoof capsule? This would be a less invasive way to determine what this limb needs and also provide good support and protection. Seems like there are too many unknowns at this point.

Hey Ronald if your customers get tired of flying you around, let me know. :)

[Ronald Aalders]

Hi Phil,

Here in Europe is futurity time now. Just a month after the European Championships. This time of year I'm pretty popular. In the winter it cools of.....

The horse in the pics 1 and 2 was a club I worked on. No signs of laminitis.


Ronald Aalders

["Riddle"]

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[Ronald Aalders]

Thanks Riddle,

I wonder if I understand what you are saying. To help make up my mind here, how would you trim this foot?

Thanks,


Ronald Aalders

["Riddle"]

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