How much heel should we see?

[lorraine]

I am wondering how much heel we should be seeing with our horses.My friend and I have different farriers she seems to have too much heel growth and I don't seem to have enough,any guidelines would be helpful.Thanks.

[calshoer]

Heels on the foot should be maintained at or near the level of the sole. That may be a lower heel angle on some horses, higher on others. It depends on their bone structure. Heel that grows beyond the sole very much is too much. It wil either be too tall for that individual, or run forward. Most horses that appear to have too little heel actualy have too much, but it has crushed under the foot.
Patty

[caballus]

A good general baseline is a heel that is about 1/8 - 1/4" above the live sole at the seat of corn. Adjust for the individual horse.

--Gwen

[pawsplus]

What has really helped me in understanding about the heel is thinking of taking it BACK rather than DOWN. I.e., most traditionally trimmed/shod hooves are underrun. The heels may also be too high, but once you take them back towards the part of the foot that is supposed to bear the horse's weight, they will naturally come down. The big problem is that they are too far forward. When my trimmer (NB trimmer) trims my horses she goes back very slightly w/ the heels. And they are perfect! This allows the heels to spread and get strong, the frog to spread, and the entire balance of the foot to move back under the weight of the horse.

[Phil Armitage]

A good general baseline is a heel that is about 1/8 - 1/4" above the live sole at the seat of corn. Adjust for the individual horse.

--Gwen

Hi Gwen you have stated this before. By definition the seat of corn is the junction of the bars and hoof wall at the heel. I would think that leaveing the heel 1/8 to 1/4 above the live sole plane in the seat of corn would still be excessive heel length by Patty's description. The 1/8 measurement that I learned was to leave the wall plane 1/8" above the sole plane at the qaurters (widest part of the foot, 3/4" back from the apex of the frog.) This area is also where the foot arches. Maybe you and Patty are saying the samething, however right now it sounds confuseing.

I agree that each horse is an individual, each foot is individual. There not all the same size, shape, angle and length. The key is learning anatomy and Physiology. Also consider where the horse lives and what they do for a job. In my opinion very low angles where the bulbs are touching the ground need to be protected and most of the time a plane steel shoe is enough protection and support. I see alot of horses barefoot behind with low heels on the hind feet, doesnt it make sense that these horses feel the rocks in there bubls and might be causeing them to alter there gait to stay comfortable?

[caballus]

Hi Gwen you have stated this before. By definition the seat of corn is the junction of the bars and hoof wall at the heel. I would think that leaveing the heel 1/8 to 1/4 above the live sole plane in the seat of corn would still be excessive heel length by Patty's description.

Phil ... you miss the word "live" ... sole at the seat of corn. That means thoroughly cleaning out at the juncture and finding the LIVE sole then using that as your guideline (general). Essentially, yes - Patti and I are saying the same thing.

In my opinion very low angles where the bulbs are touching the ground need to be protected and most of the time a plane steel shoe is enough protection and support. I see alot of horses barefoot behind with low heels on the hind feet, doesnt it make sense that these horses feel the rocks in there bubls and might be causeing them to alter there gait to stay comfortable?

Yes, very low angles are not good. What does that have to do with taking the heels down using the seat of corn guideline? Getting the heels to a proper height for passive FROG contact (active during movement and I did not indicate the bulbs at all) does not mean that the angle is going to be low. On the contrary ... getting the correct heel height (bringing the heels back and lowering if needed) AND correct toe length and angle is going to correct the heel angle, as well.

It's difficult to take one portion of hoof balance and discuss it without addressing all the other portions (toe, quarters, breakover, shape, etc.) But, again, the original question was "how much heel we should be seeing with our horses."

--Gwen

--Gwen

[Phil Armitage]

Phil ... you miss the word "live" ... sole at the seat of corn. That means thoroughly cleaning out at the juncture and finding the LIVE sole then using that as your guideline (general). Essentially, yes - Patti and I are saying the same thing.

Got it, I agree. My comprihention problem and lack of reading skills must of kicked in.


Yes, very low angles are not good. What does that have to do with taking the heels down using the seat of corn guideline? Getting the heels to a proper height for passive FROG contact (active during movement and I did not indicate the bulbs at all) does not mean that the angle is going to be low. On the contrary ... getting the correct heel height (bringing the heels back and lowering if needed) AND correct toe length and angle is going to correct the heel angle, as well.

I agree, I will get aggressive with underun heel and trim them down to the sole plane, I like to add a shoe or even a pad for protection and support.

It's difficult to take one portion of hoof balance and discuss it without addressing all the other portions (toe, quarters, breakover, shape, etc.) But, again, the original question was "how much heel we should be seeing with our horses."

--Gwen

--Gwen

I agree.

I thought you were both saying the samething. It can get confuseing for horse owners to figure out what each of us are doing if we use different terms and our own way of trying to explain things. Just playing devils advocate. I think this is a great discussion. Thanks for shareing your experience.

Thanks

[caballus]

:) enjoy your day!

--Gwen

[calshoer]

Phil ... you miss the word "live" ... sole at the seat of corn. That means thoroughly cleaning out at the juncture and finding the LIVE sole then using that as your guideline (general). Essentially, yes - Patti and I are saying the same thing.
No we are not saying the same thing.
I use Gene's approximately 1/8" (1/4"in some hind feet measured in the widest part of the foot ,which considering the sole dips in at that place, which brings the heels down TO the live sole plane back at the buttress. (that is in shod feet..... in bare feet there may be a little flattened peak of heel horn left back there.
Patty

[caballus]

You're right, Patty. After re-reading we are not saying the same thing. If one were to take the heels all the way down to the level of the LIVE sole at the seat of corn one would end up with a very sore barefoot horse.

Here's a photo of good, general heel length:

http://www.barefoottrim.com/physiology/partso5.jpg

--Gwen

[Phil Armitage]

I knew you guys were not saying the same thing. Was still playing devils advocate and being civil. Now we are back to the original question of "How much heel should we see?" Patty I asked Gene this question at the clinic in Vermont couple of years ago and there was no difference between doing shod or barefoot horses. I trimmed the hind feet of a barefoot horse, left some horn at the heels, had Gene look at it and he had me trim it down farther to the sole plain. Right or wrong I like to leave a little more heel on barefoot horses and trim to the live sole plain when shoeing. But still this remains a big question and debate to many. I remember my mentor a 30 year veteran said once, he heard many opinions throughout the years, leaveing more heel was better then, trimming them down was better. I think after awhile it becomes common sense for many farriers and trimmers and each horse is different. Very confuseing for horse owners.

[caballus]

Well, Phil ... I guess that's where the horse's opinion comes into play, huh? If its sore after taking the heels down to live sole plane then it would be reasonable to assume that that particular horse, at that particular time needed more heel. If not, then all's well. Personally, I like to leave heel as I indicated -- with enough for the frog to just barely touch the ground while the horse is standing on level, firm surface. Gene likes to take down to level of live sole? Pete likes to leave 18 - 1/4". So ... guess it just depends and there isn't, as usual, any one specific set of numbers to answer your question! ;)

--Gwen

[Phil Armitage]

It is not my question Gwen. I wonder if the original poster is satisfied with the answer?

[Carolhanq]

Just as a note, I wondered if anyone else varied their trimming with the season. I will trim level with the live sole for most of the year, but when our horses are on sharp, uneven ice, January-March, I will leave 1/4 inch over the sole and ramp the bars up. I have also noticed that they will get a strong ridge around the apex of the frog, which is hard and shiny and does not appear to want to exfoliate. I keep this ridge in check to avoid bruising, but I am not as aggressive as the rest of the year. I touch up every other week so
I do not have a problem with excessively high heels etc. Now, as soon as April and May come around, I will notice the ridge and excess sole will naturally begin to exfoliate and I will once again bring the heels and bars a little closer. I assume that some of the hoof changes occur due to a lack of movement and my adjusted trimming, but I wonder if some of the changes I see are natural and necessary added protection. Carol

[calshoer]

You're right, Patty. After re-reading we are not saying the same thing. If one were to take the heels all the way down to the level of the LIVE sole at the seat of corn one would end up with a very sore barefoot horse.
I agree that in a barefoot horse the heel length you show in your photo is a decent heel length. I might have taken a little bit more, leaving the very back of the frog hanging about 1/16" past the heels to add support. It would depend on the ground and the condition of the whole back of the foot.
In a shod horse I take it down TO the level of the live sole in the very back of the buttress, to help insure the frog can engage the ground through the thickness of the shoe. That usually means there is still the 1/8" deepness at the widest part of the foot,where the sole is more concave. (Gene's principles) .
Here's a shod foot with an average amount of frog contact. This one was trimmed 1/8" deep at the widest part of the foot and the heels trimmed back TO the level of the live sole in the buttress, which is standard protocol for NB shoeing. Remember there will also soon be dirt packing into the shoe too, to help with frog support even more.
Patty