Different Size Hooves in Front?

[horsedreamin]

I'm new here and I must say -- Thank God for you guys!

I have a 15 yo QH gelding -- my first horse. I have been getting quite an education, too, the hard way for me and the horse.

It seems he has two different sized front hooves. I've been told this is no different that a person who has different sized feet -- okay. My question is why does one farrier trim to make it look more uniform and another farrier trim and the one foot look A LOT larger?

He has also had underrun and crushed heels which we helped by shoeing for the summer. Brought his angles up from 47 degrees in the front to 53 degrees now, barefoot. Heels have greatly improved. We did the initial change in angles a bit drastic, but since then have gone very slowly. He is fine.

I was forced to change farriers, as my farrier lost his daughter in an accident this August and was not returning phone calls. I completely understand that, but had to change. I was very pleased with this last guy and am not certain about this new one. The new one is much older and more experienced. Just don't know who to listen to.

Also, the new guy trimmed back and rolled the toe which seems to have helped tremendously with the breakover (as I have read in other threads here). That also makes sense, but the hooves look totally different than they used to.

The other problem I am concerned about is it seems that even after the last trim his back feet still seem like they were splaying out. I'm under the impression it should not be like that.

I have learned that even though I have the best intentions on the care for my horses, ignorance can have devastating effects. I have learned a great deal, but still am not sure this is the right thing for this guy. Everytime I have to change farriers I get a different looking hoof.

I HOPE I've made at least a little sense of this for you.

Thanks
Linda

[Phil Armitage]

How many times have you changed farriers? As I read your post I get the impression your new to horses and this is your first horse and you changed farriers once. Then you say every time you have to change farriers your horses feet are different. I am confused.

[horsedreamin]

Sorry to be confusing. Yesterday was not my best day, and I didn't know how detailed I should be.

I purchased my first horse two and a half yrs. ago. I have had five farriers. The first one was not reliable and would not show up for appointments. I used him for about three months. I also questioned the fact that every time he trimmed, he would tell me they would be sore for a couple of days.

The second guy was very young, very nice, showed up on time, and answered any and all questions I had. Everything seemed fine. I used him for almost a year (approx.). As I became a little more knowledgeable and had more resources at my disposal, I heard from more than one very experienced person that "they wouldn't let him trim their goat." This concerned me greatly. At the same time, I was being told and shown that my QH had underrun heels, crushed heels, and very long toes.

At about that time (a little over a yr. ago) I accompanied my friend with her horse to a well-respected equine hospital. That horse's issues were on his front, and the vet had said "whatever you're doing hoof-wise, keep on doing it." She had been using a "natural trimmer." Okay, tried her. After approx. six months, she got pregnant. I found it very unusual that she did fine with one horse and almost ruined the other horse (I had two at the time).

Sent my QH out for some "refresher" training in the spring. His hooves were so bad, the trainer could not even ride him for fear of blowing his navicular. His toes were extremely long, angles at 47 and 48 degrees on the front. Very crushed heels. He was a mess. Had to get a new farrier.

At the end of May of this year, the trainer and I discussed the problems at length with a farrier she knew and came up with a plan of slowly changing the angles, adding shoes with pads, and the shoes extended beyond the back of his heel, etc. He did come up mildly lame in the FL for about a month after the initial trimming and shoeing which was not surprising. He is fine now. He was trimmed and reshod six weeks after (mid-July). At that time, the farrier, I believe, keps his angles at 52, but without pads. We agreed that the heels had come back up nicely and at the next trim, he would go barefoot again. Three weeks later, the farrier's 13 yo daughter was killed in an ATV accident. I haven't heard from him since, and I completely understand this. I might add that he is the FIRST FARRIER I had THAT MEASURED. That also concerned me about the people I had been using prior to this.

So, I had to find another farrier. It's not easy finding a farrier in my area that will come out for only one horse (sold the other one at the end of May). So, now I have this older man with an awful lot of experience. I realize that doesn't make him right, but he does have experience. I have also heard good and bad things about him, too.

In the meantime, I acquired a second QH who seems to have no problems. He just needed trimmed badly. So, the farrier comes and trims both. His front hooves are now measured at 53 degrees without shoes, but this time, I notice the FR is a lot larger than the FL. (This was also noticeable with the "natural trimmer" and I believe the second guy.) It seems like the back feet are still "splayed" a little after the trim, also.

The end result is this: I do not want to cripple my horses because I do not have the adequate knowledge about hoof care. I take great pride in the excellent care I attempt to give these animals. They mean the world to me. I always ask the farrier how and where they would like to trim. If there is anything I can do to help, etc. I take great care in scheduling trims every six weeks (or as recommended). If shoes are required, we do that.

I just don't know where to go after this. The farriers in my area that have excellent reputations are too busy and don't like coming out for only two horses. I have a neighbor with two horses pretty much in the same boat. We were/are using the same farrier. We might be able to work something out scheduling as to make four horses available for one time, but that would be difficult as we work different hours. The four horses are now ALMOST on the same schedule for trimming. Her are not as old, nor are they as well behaved as mine. Mine are 15 and 20. Hers are 3 and 5.

Thank you all.

Linda

[Jeanie Connors]

Linda, it's hard to say "good" or "bad" without pictures. Different sized feet may be normal for your horse, or it may not be. Can you post pictures for us to see? :)

[Phil Armitage]

Hi Linda I am glad to hear you care as much as you do and that your that into learning as much as you can about horses and there feet. I personaly like people who pay attention to there horses feet, as the saying goes "No Foot No Horse". I would like to share things I have learned, it is important to keep in mind that not all horses are the same and each foot can be different. I do not measure toe length or angles these numbers mean very little to me I quess that makes me a poor farrier in some horsemens eyes. There are farriers who do measure everything, whatever floats there boat, we all have a different style and approach to doing this job. I do think it is important for the bone columb to be aligned with the hoof as much as possible, however I have seen horses stay sound by leaveing them alone and go lame by trying to raise them to a certain angle and vise versa.:confused: .

Trying to align the pasturn joints is a good basic rule of thumb, however it is just that a basic rule and good place to start when trying to figure things out. Sqaureing a horse up on a flat hard surface and judgeing the conformation and angles is pretty basic and we can tell alot if a horse favors one leg or foot over another by doing this, another thing we should do is watch how there feet land at a walk and trot, is it toe first of heel first. I should mention, the handler or rider can cause all kinds of problems in movement and landing if there not good horsemen. Slightly heel first is ideal, flat is good, toe first is a sign of discomfort in the rear half of the foot not always. However a hard heel first landing could be a sign of pain in the front half of the foot. It takes a trained eye and alot of experience to see what is going on and even then it is only an observation with not enough information to really conclude what is going on, may need radiographs and work up exam by a vet. It does not make sense to me to set a horse at a specific angle or toe length, there is much better methods useing landmarks on the bottom of the foot and watching them move to determine how they should be trimmed and shod. A majority of the time horses are standing, walking and running on uneven ground, rocks, sand and mud so they do not stay at a specific angle day to day in there paddocks, rideing rings or trails anyways and do fine as long as they are healthy and in condition.

Things I look for is sole thickness, proper heel length, healthy frog and bars, breakover and healthy horn trimmed to the ideal length in other words a short healthy strong foot and a properly shaped and fitted shoe. Most of the time flares, cracks, dishing, shearing and jamming in the hoof is a sign of problems and they develop over time and are corrected over time. These things can be caused by poor farrier work, enviroment, problems with internal structures of the hoof and/or problems somewhere else in the horse. Pain and discomfort in other areas causes the horse to compensate and put more or less wieght unevenly on the feet and can cause different size feet, different angles, atrophy of the frog and hoof or fatter frog and wider looking feet. It becomes the chicken and the egg deal with trying to figure out which came first problems in the horses back, shoulders, hips and limb or problems in the feet. Underrun heels and long toe can be genetic as club feet in some breeds are.

Horses feet can change size and shape throughout the year, I do many horses where I cannot reset shoes, because there feet are smaller or bigger by one size every few months. Some horse I do stay pretty consistant.

The older farrier sounds like he has alot of experience, time and experience teaches us farriers alot and as we get under more and more horses we gain more tools to do a better job. Just because a farrier only does big barns does not automaticly make them a better farrier, if that is the case, I better drop all my small accounts so people do not get the wrong impression.

I do not know a farrier or Vet that people have not made negative and positive comments about, comes with the territory. I do not know what you do for a liveing, but I bet your not perfect and there are people who like your work and people that do not. If a farrier has not been blamed for things or bad mouthed then they are not working on enough horses. :)

Some people get mad at us because we might have charged them too much, had to cancel and reschedule there apointment to take care of something more important or said something to offend them or maybe we were not in a good mood on a particular day. It is a very tough buisness to be in and horse people are pretty crazy bunch, me included.

Post some picture so we can help you out more.

[horsedreamin]

First off, I will definitely get some pics. Thank you both for offering your help. It will probably take me a while to do, but I will get on it. I do not have a lot of experience squaring-up a horse, so I hope we can get some good pics for you.

As I read your reply, I realized there is some additional info I can provide. First off, for a number of different, LONG reasons (a few trips to the ER and a surgery last April and physical therapy on my broken arm -- not from him), he has not been ridden since last November, so he is at this time only a pasture horse. We have a small dry lot (1/2 acre) and another 3/4 acre of grass that he rotates on. They are both older, so there is not a lot of "running and playing." Lots of napping, though -- lol.

The current farrier was very informative. He took the time to show me angles, reasons for doing things, and on the new guy I got, talked a lot about removing the old frog. I guess it hadn't been done at all.

He also spoke to me about the appearance of the hoof and how one can tell when feed has been changed, i.e., lines in the hoof. Said he could tell I had owned him for over a year and that I had not changed feed. He said his hooves were in a good, healthy condition. I have been using RainMaker on him almost daily this summer, as we have had one of the worst droughts in over 20 yrs. here and his hooves were very hard to begin with.

Pain and discomfort in other areas -- I do believe in chiros for horses. I don't take him often, as he has not been working, but he did go last fall and then again this spring. I have learned how valuable this can be. The chiro I use is also a DVM -- very good. Am also very conscious about proper saddle fit and am working on that one -- for when I do get back in the saddle.

The comment about difficulty in getting a farrier out for only one horse in this area has nothing to do with barn size, rather how busy they are. It does make sense that if you can drive to one place and do 12 horses, it's more economical and a higher profit. No problem, as I really do understand this. I think it's more a matter of they are so busy, they cannot take on new clients. I also understand that "You can't please all the people all the time." You are very correct, that over a lifetime, someone is always going to say something negative at some point in time. For me, though, it is difficult to tell if some of those "negative" remarks are valid, and too important for my horses' health as to overlook them. I'm just trying to do right by my guys. I agree -- no hoof, no horse.

Well, thanks again, and I'll get working on those photos.

Linda