NB shoes causing happyfoot syndrome

[hfournier]

I just returned from the 3-day natural balance hoof care clinic in Greeley, Colorado, Sept. 23-5, and I thought I would report on the progress of my lame Thoroughbred cross gelding, Tanager, who was used as a demonstration case on Saturday. So far, the results are nothing less than phenomenal.

The horse had been suffering for many months with hind-end lameness, including locking stifles (medial patellar ligaments catching), sore hocks and back pain. He was so short-strided and stiff behind that I had to discontinue his dressage training and look for help. The vet wanted to begin by treating the stifles and prescribed IM estrogen for 30 days, during which the problem worsened.

We did x-rays at the clinic to look for negative palmar angle in the hind feet, but did not find it. He was normal, just very low angles.

Gene outfitted the horse in front with regular steel NB shoes. On the back feet he applied natural balance front shoes with the breakover set way back (not sure if it was just beneath or behind the tip of P3 b/c I was holding the horse and couldn't see). He also set him on wedge pads with magic cushion underneath. I guess I should say Gene did the left feet and two clinic participants did the right feet, but ANYway. When I trotted Tanager in the parking lot afterwards, everyone could immediately see an improvement in his stride. But without a place to work him it was hard to tell how he really felt. Well.

After I got home last night, I took Tanager to a neighbor's jumping arena to try out the new footwear. Just as I was preparing to mount, he began an impromptu "airs above ground exhibition," rearing and waving his new NB shoes over my head. This concerned me, so in the interest of self-preservation, I untacked him and set him loose in the arena. Ka-boom!

For nearly an hour he ran laps around the arena, trotting, cantering, galloping, bucking, jumping and doing flying changes at every turn. Every time he stopped and I tried to catch him he took off to do more laps.

I have NEVER seen this horse move like that, and though I expected to see an improvement I was stunned by the difference. He actually bent his hocks. Wow! In the canter he brought his hind legs fully underneath himself and engaged his hind end, whereas before he would stab his hind feet into the ground, launch his hindquarters up and dump on his forehand.

I could still see the ligaments popping in his stifles and he did lock up once, but this did not seem to bother him or slow him down.

When I finally caught him and worked up the nerve, I saddled and mounted up. At the trot he was going like a freight train. He floated over the same cavalletti poles he was literally tripping over last Wednesday. I didn't have the nerve to try the canter, but I will do that tomorrow.

Holly

[Donnie Walker]

Holly - what a great experience for you and your horse. I have a notebook full of e-mails from satisfied customers like yourself, expressing similar results, after being transitioned to the natural balance system. Take some pictures of him for later comparison because he will most likely undergo musculo-skeletal changes that you will readily notice.

[Donald Ruff]

donnie,

where in south central texas do you live???

don ruff

[Phil Armitage]

That is a great story. Obviously this horse was experiencing discomfort in his hind feet and needed to be set up properly. I have gained the same results by increasing breakover, useing regular shoes, wedge pads and Equi-Pak to aid in the support and protection of the negative palmer angle. Currious as to what Gene recommended as a long term plan and if he feels reducing the wedgeing will be needed as the negative palmer angle of P-3 changes to a normal posistion. Thanks for shareing the good news. Watch those happy feet.

[calshoer]

Hi Phil. I was there too.
Tanager really didn't have the expected negaive palmer angle (got Xrays).
He is built very straight through the hips and stifles though, which is contributing to the locking problem. The shoes are allowing him to get over the hind toes without having to bend the stifle so much.
He may need to stay in the "front shoe on hind feet" for several shoeings (or more). The veterinary treatment (estrogen injections or wehatever they decide )should strengthen them some. Also now that he can work more in comfort,the exercise will help strengthen them too.
Perhaps after he strengthens the ligaments more he can go back to a hind NB shoe and eventualy no wedge. We'll see as time goes on.
Glad he is liking his new spats. :D
Patty

[Rick Burten]

Why are the front pattern NBS working better than the hind pattern NBS for this horse?

Were the front pattern shoes re-worked sufficiently to follow the form of the hind feet or were they left quite bold in the toes, quarters, etc?

How far back did the heel support extend?

How much wedging was used?

Is there any chance of getting some pictures postes of the feet, particularly the hinds?

Thanks.

Rick

[calshoer]

Gene has been using a lot of front NB shoes on hind feet lately. with some amazing results in hind end lameness. He says he is not even sure why it is working so well but there have been some incredible reports back from owners.
The shoes are not reworked much if at all. The toe corners do not stick out because the shoe is set back so far. Breakover is probably behind the tip of P3. It creates a similar breakover situation mechanially (I think) to a banana shoe.
Heels end about the same as in a front or a bit longer .....ending somewhere about a line across the rear of the central sulcis of the frog,or sometimes further back jut depends on the size of the shoe.
On some Gene has put wedges on right off the bat (depending on footfall and amount of lameness) some he tries just the shoe, then if the results are OK but not quite good enough, adds a wedge the next time.
Everyone who is doing this now can only theorize why it is working so consistantly well.
I think in hock and stifle issues it just allows the limb to get over the toe withuot much leverage to the joints or internal foot structures.
It also allows the hind toe to get into the ground easier...due to the much shorter lever arm. There will soon be a study completed from Hillary Clayton and Dr.Bowker on ground force reaction of various toe lengths at breakover, but it is not fully compiled yet. Hope they get it together soon. It may explain the changes in forces. So far only it is only the clinical results supporting the technique, it just works.

Patty

[Phil Armitage]

Patty, thank you for shareing the details. I know a few horses with similar hind end problems, I should give it a try and share the results. I went back and reread the original post, misunderstood the mention of the negative palmer angle. I am still wondering if the horse's feet were sore, did anyone go over them with hoof testers? I am also wondering why Gene used magic cushion? I understand Magic Cushion has some pain reliever properties.

[calshoer]

I wasn't present at the preliminary workup.. I was off doing something else. Holly can tell you if he was hoof tested. Gene usually does, and I think the vets there had looked at him before, too.
The Magic CUshion contains (among other things) capsaisin, a hot pepper extract that is used in some salves to relieve pain.
Patty

[Donald Ruff]

wash your hands prior to going to the restroom after using magic cushion.

don

[Dances with Hooves]

I have been having fantastic results using the new technique. I've cut and pasted this post that the woman that I take my dressage lessons from posted to a dressage discussion board. This horse presented with a bullnosed hind, sensitivity in the soaz muscle, and the prolapsed frog that seem to all be consistant with a negative plane coffin in the hind. Prior to the last shoeing he was in NB front shoes in front and in Kerkhart SSP's behind.

This lady sees and feels subtle movements that I just cant even begin to comprehend and I thought we can all benefit from reading her inital impressions of the effect of the Front NB shoes on the hind feet of this particular horse.

BEGIN TEACHERS COMMENTS

"Well today Dre had his feet done. The farrier put those NB shoes on his hinds as well, brought them back under so his breakover is cleaner, quicker and can go whatever way his body is happy doing it. I tacked up to ride while George was finishing him up I was so excited to see what difference there would be, if any.

We went to the outdoor since that footing is his nemisis - it's just not as cushy as the indoor and he likes cushy. Figured I'd mess around for 10 minutes, see how he felt and then decide where to go from there. If it was bad I'd cry and if it was good I'd keep riding.

First thing I noticed was Dre's ears were UP. Up as in almost touching each other, up. He had a bounce to his step, felt rather jaunty, really. In the warm up he came through immediately. I was doing canter/walk/counter canter/walk transitions within the first 10 minutes, he felt that good. He was EAGER to rock back on his hind end and sit down. We've been getting a lot more self-carriage in the canter work lately, but today he gave it in the trot for more than half of our ride for quite extended periods. Half pass was a breeze, he was just so easy to move off my leg - even to the right which is his bad direction.

He was just so much more able and willing to come under himself and hold himself up on his hind feet/legs, that the changes felt a lot less ***bersome, too.

He felt so honest today. He was able to come from BOTH hind legs evenly. He was happy to go forward and offer impulsion and maintain self-carriage. Half halts were given as a whisper and he answered them incredibly well. He was feeling so "happy" in his behind that I asked for a couple of canter/halt/canter transitions and he offered them BEAUTIFULLY.

He felt like he was put together so WELL today, like suddenly all of his pieces fit. He had so much freedom and swing, he was soooooo relaxed and just eager to DO. What fun today was. I had a blast.

My trainer was watching us play today and when I got done she asked me what we'd done differently to him. She said that she had been trying to pinpoint his "slouch" and where it was coming from for a long time, (it was very slight, he just looked like he was lacking something, like his movement was a tiny bit anemic). She was amazed at the difference and impressed that we were able to find it and make him obviously much more comfortable with something as simple as breakover for the hind. Both of us agreed that it was kind of a "duh" thing that we hadn't thought of it before. She and I are usually very quick to catch this kind of thing"

END OF TEACHERS COMMENTS

Its been 6 weeks and the horse has done very well at shows (2nd and 3rd level tests) and at two dressage clinics the clinicians (Paul Belasik and some german fella) both felt the horse had the potential to move up to PSG next year. We plan on resetting him next week the same way as he is going so well.

George

[Dave Whitaker]

Hay Don....... is that one of those "don't ask me how I know" deals??????? lol

I too, worked with Gene and Jim H. in Vermont this Spring where Gene tried the "Front on the hinds" approach with a very back sore TB. Again, pretty recognizable results were apparent immediately. As Patty mentioned, there was no exact reason as to why it "works", only that the clinical results are usually positive on a fairly consistant basis. It must have something to do with the very aggressive placement of the point of breakover. The Page/Bowker study that Patty mentioned I believe is going to be presented in Cinncinatti the end of Jan '06. Dave

[hfournier]

Here's a little more on Tanager's clinical background. If I can ever find the time I'll post pictures of the shoes.

Tanager has been hoof tested in the past but was negative, although with obviously thin soles. I don't remember if Gene hoof-tested.

He has huge frogs and, if I recall correctly, Gene said the small amount of magic cushion would provide just a little stimulation without pushing too much on the frog. The impression material would have been too much for him. I don't remember what he said about the analgesic effect - maybe it's just a preventive? Patty do you remember?

The horse has already tried and failed the estrogen therapy. I am taking him Friday for a progress exam and to pursue Plan B. This may include Sarapin injections to the patellar ligaments and/or a cortisone/hyaluronic injection to the left stifle. The vets at the hoof clinic thought they felt some some effusion in the joint. I may also consider medial-patellar ligament splitting depending on what my vet says (and if I like what he says).

I rode him a few more times since the "happyfeet" experience, and he continued to move much better. I think his initial exuberance had something to do with the excitement of being at the clinic all weekend, but he really did seem to be trying out the new "sneaks."

The patellar locking has not improved, so I have stopped riding him until we decide on treatment. I feel that the repeated locking might irritate the joint or cause him to fall. Gads, I don't need another accident!

Holly

[hfournier]

Here are pics of the NB hind shoes with wedges and a couple of before shots.

He was without hind shoes 5-6 weeks before the NB clinic. He had worn through the right hind toe in five weeks and it just fell off, so I pulled the other and left him barefoot.

He had always gone barefoot behind except for the previous three months. Coincidentally, his stifles worsened during that time. It wasn't a bad shoeing job, and his stride did lengthen after first getting the hind shoes. The stifles going bad was probably inevitable, barefoot or not, due to his conformation.

I took him to the vet for a progress exam on Friday, 10/7. Vet said he looked good - no stifle locking. Nothing wrong, just a little sore on the right hock and stifle after flexion. Huh? What happened? He was still locking last weekend when I rode him. Rode again yesterday and he felt great, no locking. The vet at the hoof clinic two weeks ago felt quite a bit of effusion on the left stifle. None felt on the left by my vet during the exam, just a bit on the right.

A few of the vet's comments and questions:

- Did he have wedges before?
- How long has he had these shoes? (two weeks)
- Sometimes wedges make the stifles worse.
- Sometimes wedges help the stifles.
- They sure have him landing heel-first!
- How long has he had these shoes?
- Wedges shorten the stride a little in the hind.

The vet's recommendation was to keep riding him and see how it goes, if he continues to improve. The shoes haven't been on long enough to give them a real test, he said.

[Dances with Hooves]

Mr. Fournier posted the last update to tanger in another forum on this board as the quality of the nails on the hind that gene did not do was being discussed there. In the interest of keeping Tangers progress in this thread too I am taking the liberty of pasting in hfourniers comments on him here.

hfournier wrote:

"After three weeks with these shoes and no other therapy, my horse has gone from painfully lame to nearly perfectly sound. He hasn't locked a stifle in two weeks - was doing this several times in each ride. He does not stab his toes, has no more effusion on his left patella (was filled up the day of the shoeing). My lameness specialist is pleased with the shoes. We may not need to do any injections to stifle."

I hope tanger coninues to improve and look forward to further news from hfounier of how he is doing.

[pahrumpbarefoot]

I was reading threw this post and there was one section about putting front shoes on the rear feet and someone was wondering why this would help. As part of my business I do transportation of mustangs to their new adoption homes here where I live, as well as owning a 8 y/o mare that is 1/2 QH and 1/2 mustang that was blessed with the mustang feet I have had her 2 years and have only had to trim her feet once and that was only because I had changed the footing in her corral. What I have seen from the mustangs from around the south west, is that there is very very little difference in the look of the rear feet from the front feet and have a beautiful rounded toe and the bottom of the all the feet are as smooth as a dinner plate including the frog that is right next to the bars with no space between the frog and the bars. With this shaping of the feet it gives the horse equal break over/speed on both the front and back feet the horse feels more equal in all gates.


Where if you put a different break over on the back then the front, it is much like us as if we had only one boot (for the woman one high heel) on and tried to walk, it feels awkward and uncomfortable and is hard to get use to. This is what causes alot of movement problems, because the horse is trying to learn how to walk again everytime a change is made to try and help the horse.

John Wilkins

[John Emsley]

John,
With all due respect, I think you're missing the point. There was no mention of the "same breakover" being focused on for the rear hooves, but that front shoes were applied and aggressively set back on the hinds to relieve the locking of the stiffles. I've done that as well, sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. ;) Without getting into a never ending debate on training, your analogy of having the same breakover on all four hooves, doesn't hold water because each pair have a different function to perform in the athleticism of a horse. The challenge is to coordinate those functions. I do recognize that a very similar breakover is acomplished if a competent shoeing job is done and no outside factors are envolved. The horse discussed here doesn't fall into that catagory. :eek: Trained a few, lost a few, won more. :D John

[calshoer]

Thank you John E.
Pahrump, you sorta contradicted yourself here. Given that the the mustangs you point out have hind feet that look very similar to the fronts, and therefore have a nice even gait, then why would putting front shoes on all 4 feet of a domestic horse be a problem?
It isn't making them DIFFERENT, it is making them more where the need to be for efficiency of movement. The horses who recieve front shoes on the hind feet are usually those who have developed unnatural distortion in those fet, with long toes and/or negative plane palmer coffin bone angles (something you wont find oin your good footed mustangs).These are domestic horses whos hind feet DONT look like the fronts, but need to.
What the ront shoes do mechanically is to allow the toe to tip into the ground easier, thereby better preventing so much coffin joint mis alignment just as the horse pushes off. Threby reducing strain in the entire back end of the horse.
Just like a good short toe hind foot on your mustangs..... :D Patty

[pahrumpbarefoot]

I guess I should better explain myself as to what I was saying and a quick introduction of myself. I am a bare-foot Farrier and even though I was trained to put on shoes and do trims. I do not carry anything other then several different sizes of nippers and rasps on my truck, its not that I am against shoes I have found that I can fix just as many problems with the tools I carry as I can with putting a shoe on. The explanation I gave was not about putting shoes on my horse it was to explain why putting the shoes on helped. I joined this group to get different points of view and to give a different point of view on problems that I have faced and get information on problems I may face in the future.

To me it is more important to find out what causes a problem in the first place and 95% of the time the problem was caused by a well intentioned Farrier or horse owner and then get the foot back to as natural as possible and for the NB Farriers who are saying that’s what we do, well from what I have read on NB it is close but needs improvements.

The reason I say this is because if a foot out here where I live was cleaned out and trimmed in the NB way the horses would end up with stone bruises, abscesses and chipped hooves. I may only see the toe callous once when I first see a new horse but after that if the horse owner gets the horse on a good diet and does what I say about keeping the corral conditions for the horse, I will never see the toe callous again and I can put a curve into the toe itself that would match a shoe so no nails and its already shaped for me.

This hoof once its shaped will maybe only need to be rasped every 6 months to keep the shape depending on the horses living conditions

John Wilkins

if you find a problem horse dont blame the horse
Horses don't have horse problems, they have people problems

[tbloomer]

I guess I should better explain myself as to what I was saying and a quick introduction of myself. I am a bare-foot Farrier and even though I was trained to put on shoes and do trims. I do not carry anything other then several different sizes of nippers and rasps on my truck, its not that I am against shoes I have found that I can fix just as many problems with the tools I carry as I can with putting a shoe on. The explanation I gave was not about putting shoes on my horse it was to explain why putting the shoes on helped. I joined this group to get different points of view and to give a different point of view on problems that I have faced and get information on problems I may face in the future.

Which tools do you carry that fix problems with traction, wear protection, or changing a horses way of going?

To me it is more important to find out what causes a problem in the first place and 95% of the time the problem was caused by a well intentioned Farrier or horse owner and then get the foot back to as natural as possible and for the NB Farriers who are saying that’s what we do, well from what I have read on NB it is close but needs improvements.
Since NB theory has been evolving over time, it appears that Gene O' is aware of the need for improvement. To bad you have only read about it and were unable to attend his lecture at the IHCS this year. Perhaps it is not the protocol that is lacking so much as the possibility that you are not current on NB theory.

The reason I say this is because if a foot out here where I live was cleaned out and trimmed in the NB way the horses would end up with stone bruises, abscesses and chipped hooves. I may only see the toe callous once when I first see a new horse but after that if the horse owner gets the horse on a good diet and does what I say about keeping the corral conditions for the horse, I will never see the toe callous again and I can put a curve into the toe itself that would match a shoe so no nails and its already shaped for me.
The breakover on the NB shoe is designed to accomodate the additional length added to the hoof by the thickness of the shoe. A properly trimmed bare foot does not have this additional length and therefore no need to rasp breakover behind the pillars. Horses that live in abrasive arid environments, receive a well balanced diet and regular exercise will usually grow a thick healthy sole. Horses that live in soft wet environments with rapid moisture and temperature changes do not usually retain a thick sole and often there is no sole callus or sole depth.

This hoof once its shaped will maybe only need to be rasped every 6 months to keep the shape depending on the horses living conditions
I cordially invite you to spend some time (about 6 months) on the mid-Atlantic coast attempting to keep a bunch of feet "gathered up." It can be done - by trimming every two weeks. Convincing your customers to go on a two-week trim cycle . . . priceless.

John Wilkins

if you find a problem horse dont blame the horse
Horses don't have horse problems, they have people problems
Since every horse that you will ever encounter is the result of selective breeding by people (even wild horses are merely the ancestors of domestic horses), you are mostly correct. Most confirmation flaws are the result of human intervention. Most horses with outstanding confirmation are ALSO the result of human intervention.

[Rick Burten]

Interesting. How do you 'fix' a fractured coffin bone? a fractured navicular bone? Negative plane coffin bones? hoofwall loss >50% due to WLD?
How do you create the action demanded by show ring conventions for English Pleasure horses? Reiners? How do you enhance the safety and movement ability on ice for horses that have to work city streetsand country roads in those conditions?

How are your observations relevant to the designer created, hot house flowers that most of us routinely deal with?

Since you no longer apply shoes/orthotics, and given that the definition of a farrier is 'one who shoes horses(from the verb 'ferrer': to fit with iron, is it not long past time for you to stop referring to yourself as something you are not?

If you will but take the time to read some of the many exchanges between members of the BUA crowd and the farriers who come to these forums, you will find that your observations and POV have been endlessly discussed , digested and finally complete the last step in the cycle.

[calshoer]

Pahrump, first off, a person who is a strictly barefoot trimmer can not by definition be called a farrier, since the definition of "farrier" (derived from the latin word for "IRON" ) is one who applies metal to a horses feet.

That said I woud suggest that though it is apparent you are a little bit familiar with the NBprotocols, before you attemt to analyze the needs for "improvement" in a cerefully thought out and constantly evolving protocols, that you actually attend at least a couple (or more) NB hands on weekend trimming seminars.
You will see first hand at a live seminar that NB barefoot trims are adjusted according to an individual horses environmental conditons, ie : they're not all done exactly the same even though the balancing protocols are followed. The horses that come to trimming seminars on the Northwest coast where it is wet,or on wet pastures in Floroda are trimmed a bit different from those here in dry and rocky Southern Colorado for example. Most of the difference has to do with how much the entire sole is (or is not) exfoliated .

I do find it a bit scarey that you want to remove the sole callous and 'not see it again' since it is a very real and supportive special structure that nature put there for good reasons. It grows there from papillae that is different than the rest of the sole. It is LIVE and intended to be left intact .

If you have further questions specifically about the Natural Balance protocol for which you can't find answers in the loads of free information from the EDSS website, please do ask. This is the board specifically for NB questions. This is not however the correct board to discuss other methods or protocols.
There is a board for horse owners wanting barefoot a bit above this one on the list of boards. Discussion of other protocols would be welcome there.
Patty

[Gary Hill]

I lived in Fla for 7 years and I never considered it wet ground? It was nothing but sand, sand , sand? Gary