??? Re: Roy's Thrush Treatment

[huntseatndressage]

Wow, am I glad I found this!

A bit of background...I have an 11yo TB mare who I have had barefoot for over five years. I do mostly flatwork with her, and pop her over low fences every now and again. She is mostly out on pasture; stalled at night depending on weather because of slight arthritis in her hocks as well as stocking up excessively.

The issue I have recently come across is on her left front, which one farrier once told me was charicteristic of a club foot, but the angles were not severe enough to be classified as "clubbed". Anyway, up until very recently, our summer has been extremely dry and hot (which is unusual for SE Wisconsin). For whatever reason she seemed to be growing her feet much faster than usual (this was the case on my TB gelding, as well as other horses at the barn) and we started her on a four week trim schedule since she would flare and crack/break off easily. Starting last Tuesday (five days ago), we got rain, and lots of it. It had started raining that afternoon, and by the time I got to the barn that evening to groom the horses, her hooves were obviously softened and her heel bulbs were looking white and almost chapped. I scrubbed her feet with the hose and a brush, planning to put Keratex Hoof Hardener on them and found a large opening on the left front foot from the back of her frog running between her heel bulbs and up into the hair line. There is also a big hole looking thing at the rear of the frog. Very similar to the picture Roy posted in his treatment thread. Now, prior to that I had not noticed ANY signs of thrush; no smell, no discharge. I didn't really see it before, but now that her foot is soggy, it seems her heels are contracted as the frog has a "shrunken" apperance, as if it has contracted towards the center. Her feet are picked daily by either myself or the barn owner.

Here are my questions...

1. Is it possible to have thrush but not have symptoms? I am a bit discouraged in myself over this as I have extensive experience working for barns and caring for horses. I can usually spot thrush discharge quickly and treat accordingly; however I seemed to have totally passed this one by...on my own horse, no less. :mad:

2. Can this treatment be used while a horse is on full turnout, even during wet weather? My logic says "no" as the gauze would become soaked, but I am hoping against hope someone here has said they had no problems using it during full turnout, even in wet weather. The reason being is that due to arthritis and old hind leg injuries, my mare does not do well on stall rest. She stiffens quickly, and stocks up horribly as her circulation seems to be a bit disrupted due to old severe wounds. Right now her stall is about the only place I could put her to insure her feet stay dry. The only other option, which would still be wet, but not muddy is our outdoor arena; although that has areas of standing water, also.

3. Would the antibiotic paste be something that Farm and Fleet carries? Cow farming around here is not very common, and I wouldn't know where to go other than Farm and Fleet for cattle supplies. Are there other names this medication goes by?

Thanks so much for any help, suggestions or guidance. I am kicking myself right now over this, and also wondering if a recent farrier change has impacted how this came about.

Edited: change right front to left front....it's my right when looking at her!

[caballus]

No black tarry stuff? No foul odor eminating from the crack? My guess would be Yeast and not Thrush. If you treat for thrush and, per chance, your horse has any (or you treat with a sugardine mixture) you will be feeding the yeast buggies very well and they will proliferate profusely! You need to treat the yeast topically and then treat the horse systemically.

Yeast is a fungus; thrush is a bacteria. Antibiotics will do no good for a yeast infection unless secondary complications have arisen which are bacterial in nature.

Borax soaks would do well with subsequent spraying of Calendula/H20 mixture into the cracks. Or you can use a Lysol mix w/H20 ... 2 oz. per gallon of H20. Soak the hoof in that then spray on the Calendula mixture. The Lysol or Borax will kill the fungus while the Calendula will promote rapid tissue growth. It is also an anti-fungal, anti-septic and anti-bacterial. You can get Calendula Oil at your local Health food store. Take a couple of dropperfuls and add to about 1/4 - 1/2 cup of clean water in a spray bottle. Use the stream/spray to get the mixture as far into the crack as you can. Flood it thoroughly with it.

As for the systemic? I would suggest Vitamin C 4000 mgs. daily with 1 oz. of Echinacea to help boost the immune system and then add a Homeopathic remedy to that as well.

Along with this you need to be sure the hooves are in proper form. Contracted heels tell me that the hoof is not in good form and needs remedial trimming/shaping. Your frog needs to be passively in contact with the ground when the horse is standing and actively in contact with the ground during movement. This means the heels and walls need to be trimmed down.

While the rain may have exacerbated the situation, a healthy hoof is not going to get yeast or thrush from anything if it is healthy and in good function. Yeast and Thrush live in the ground. So, that (hoof form and function) needs to be addressed to eradicate the real root of the issue as well as treating the acute situation with the yeast.

--Gwen

[huntseatndressage]

Thanks for the reply!

Would a fungal infection cause the same type of crack/opening that was presented in Roy's pictures?

It was hard for me to tell if there was any discharge out of the crack once I discovered it, as originally it was filled with muck, and after cleaning it out it was hard to tell. I didn't notice any odor, however.

Right now, I am treating with betadine...NOT a sugardine mix. I have also left it open as I thought even with muck getting in there, at least it would be open to dry out and breathe a bit, rather than closed up tight with a wrap/bootie.

I am heading to the barn tonight, I will see if I can try to get some pictures.

[caballus]

Absolutely ... it would exhibit the crack inbetween the heel bulbs. If you do get any odor its going to smell "cheesy" and any exudate from it will look like cottage cheese, too.

Photos would be most helpful. Look forward to seeing them.

--Gwen

[huntseatndressage]

Ok, here are some photos...from the photo, the heel and frog area look much darker than they do in person. I had scrubbed the foot (water only), but it wasn't COMPELTELY dry, although I had given it over half an hour.

You can see the vertical line with horizontal lines across it above the heel. At the time I discovered this, these were more like holes. Like I said, I've been treating it with betadine down into the cracks, and it seems to have closed up a bit over the last five days. I also noticed tonight that her frogs on both fronts and one hind seem to be sloughing off. I don't see any deep crevices on her other feet, so I scrubbed them and added Thrushbuster as a precaution. It is still wet by us; and seems it will be at least through the week.

I also included views with the hoof on the ground. She has tendancies to chip off at her quarters because of flares. There is also a crack at her toe and a scar line that runs back up to her coronet band. This is from an injury she incurred before I bought her, and most of the time it is not a problem. Unfortunately, we also had a pretty wet spring and the scar line cracked. It is growing out again, although it didn't grow out as fast as usual since it was SO dry this summer. The split just kept opening up. I usually use Keratex right after a trim and once a week in between.

Now, this is going to look like I neglected her feet for a long time, but that is not the case! Literally the day before I found this, everything was nice and hard, the frog looked normal; yes, she had the chipped area and crack, but the bottom looked nothing like this. In addition to the frog/heel problem, I noticed the "dirty layer" of her sole chipped off tonight when I was doing the initial picking of her feet. She did not seem sore on the newly exposed tissue.

[caballus]

Good Morning.

The 1st photo shows sketches how I would trim that hoof ... get rid of the flares that are caused by walls that are too long. Yes, I would take those walls right to the white line with a good, solid roll. That would also help eradicate the pressure causing the toe to chip and split.

The 2nd photo shows an imbalance medially/laterally ... from inside to outside. That also causes separations, flaring and, if nothing else, the way of going. Trim correctly to the outline sketched.

The 3rd photo points out thrush in the central sulcus of the frog and also where the yeast is - in the crack between the heel bulbs. Double whammie. Thrush AND Yeast. I've also marked one heel where I would take it back and down. Of course I would trim up both heels but just marked the one. I might trim up the overly long bars but just to heel level and tapering down to the sole midpoint of the frog.

A correct trim would make all the difference in the world to this horse. That, alone, would go a long way to eradicating the thrush and the yeast. In addition, I would ensure that the horse got many hours of movement on firm, hard ground. Not only because of the yeast but especially because of it, I would eradicate all sugars from the diet and feed nothing but forage (including fresh veggies, fruits, nuts, seeds, weeds, etc.) and a good vitamin/mineral/probiotic supplement (ABC Plus is an excellent organic supplement!). No sweet feeds; no concentrates high in carbs. If the horse needs extra calories and energy then one can add a fat supplement to the diet, too. Rice bran mixed in with a handful of hay extender pellets or a product called "cool calories" that is 99% fat from soybeans. I'd add the Vit. C and Echinacea, also, for the immune booster. I might seek a Hom. remedy to address the yeast and the thrush according to your horse's own individual constitution.

Most of all, tho ... a correct trim and turnout for lots and lots of movement on a firm, hard ground (dry lot if possible) are the most important criteria to establish now.

Topically I'd use a Borax soak then Tea Tree Oil and Calendula as I've mentioned. Or, try the Lysol soaks then the TTO and Calendula.

--Gwen

[Gary Hill]

The heels are extremely long on this hoof, it's no wonder it's not getting any better! The frog is so far off the ground the hoof cannot function properly to help it's self. Good Luck! Gary

[huntseatndressage]

OK, so how does one approach the farrier regarding this? :confused:

I had to start with a new farrier about three months ago, as my previous one left the business. The current one came highly recommended by quite a few people, including the vet clinic I use. I feel a bit that approaching him about this may come off as I am telling him how to do his job, which I don't think I'm quite qualified to do! LOL

Or do I start searching for a new person, and if so, how can I ensure they know enough to not let this happen again?

Feed wise, she is on Nutrena Safe Choice (mostly forage/fat) which is pelleted. She also generally has free choice grass mix (70%gr/30%alf) hay as well as what little pasture is left from the drought this year. The barn also provides a vit/mineral block for all the horses.

[Gary Hill]

Show him this site and this thread. Gwen marked where she feels the heels need to be trimmed down to. That would be a good starting point. I might trim alittle shorter but that's just me. The widest part of the frog is your guide, but sometimes the frog is contracted with the heels so you have to go with a feel-(experience). Best of Luck! Gary

[Roy Amaral CJF]

First- it's not my idea. I'm just sharing what's been shared with me.

Yes you can still turn your horse out. You might want to repack it when he comes in for the night so the medicine will get a good soak overnight.

Thrush, yeast, whatever.........this stuff kills it. I don't really care what it is it just needs to go away.

You might want to try dusting your next open cut with Borax or spraying it with Lysol to investigate the wisdom of that idea.

If you need a source call Eastern Equine at (800)200-2777. Go-Dry is the name of the product they carry.

[caballus]

Borax ... borax has been used for centuries as a healing agent for sores. It is a mineral that is essential in the absorption of calcium. It is an inhibitor of fungus and molds. And just fyi ... sprinkling Borax on your carpets will take care of any fleas in them.

Lysol Cleansing Detergent ... NOT the disinfectant spray! 2 oz. of the liquid to a gallon of water. Safe and has no adverse side effects.

I've also use "Tomorrow" for stubborn thrush problems but, again, remembering that yeast feeds off dead thrush. Also remember that thrush is an anaerobic meaning that it will die in air. So getting teh hooves to proper form and function will go a long way in redding them of thrush. Tomorrow is a dry-cow mastitis treatmeant.

-- Gwen

[Roy Amaral CJF]

Borax ... borax has been used for centuries

Just like horseshoes! http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/otn/funny/moon.gif

[huntseatndressage]

Alright, you two... :p

Ok, I'm gonna admit I was a bit leary about the Borax thing...I am too young to remember when it was popular, and when I asked my co-worker about it, she said it was a detergent. My first thought was "would I want that in one of my wounds?" :eek:

Either way, I didn't get to the store today for anything, so I grabbed some hydrogen peroxide (another thing I saw on here) to put in there tonight. I again left everything open to air out.

The farrier is due out again in two weeks and I will talk to him about everything and show him the photos. My barn owner felt he would be open to discussing making changes.

In addition, her turnout for the time being is going to be in the outdoor arena...there is very little sand left (footing is going to be redone before winter) so she will be walking on the hard packed base.

I'll post an update when things are healing and after the farrier is out.

P.S. This message board is wonderful; I definitely appreciate the time everyone takes out to help the horseowners! I have learned quite a bit on here just browsing, and realized a lot of what I HAD been taught was incorrect!

[caballus]

Roy? :p

Gwen

[caballus]

An interesting read on Bacteria and Fungi: (read with the slant toward Equine Thrush and Yeast who are mammals just as we are and function basically the same anatomically and biologically)

Bacteria And Fungi: The Enemy Within
Did you know that your disease is in perfect harmony with your body according to what diet and lifestyle choices you have made during your lifetime?
Traditional western medicine teaches and practices the precept of Louis Pasteur. Pasteur’s theory laid the foundation for western medical microbiology. A doctrine called mono-morphism which states that all illness and disease stems from external, non-changeable mono-morphic (having one form) microbes that invade the body. This theory was adopted and widely accepted by western medicine which has become a trillion dollar a year business that includes the FDA, the AMA, pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies, hospitals and research facilities.
The pleomorphic theory (many changeable forms) discovered by the French microbiologist Antoine Bechamp however, contends that microorganisms can go through different stages of development and they can develop into various growth forms in their lifecycle. Bechamp discovered microbes in the blood which he called mycrozymas. These microbes would change shape as individuals became diseased and for Bechamp, this was the cause of disease, hence, disease came from within the body.
Another scientist, Claude Bernard, agreeing with Bechamps pleomorphic theory went a step further in studies showing that indeed these microbes did change within the body but, how they do, is a direct result of the environment to which they are exposed. Claude Bernard believed that bacteria and fungi only caused illness and disease because it was permitted to grow in an unhealthy environment due primarily to unhealthy diet and lifestyle choices. These studies have been furthered even more by German bacteriologist Gunther Enderlein who was a student of Bechamps.
Many Naturopathic Doctors and natural healthcare practitioners offer what is called Live Blood and Dry Layer Analysis, as I do, at Discovering Wellness. Using a live/field dark/field microscopy system with video enhancement the practitioner can view your blood at the cellular level observing these evolving forms of bacteria and fungi. These anaerobic (living and thriving without oxygen) microbes living on sugar for energy and protein for growth can become enlarged and pathogenic and at certain stages of development change form from bacterial to fungal depending on the environment.
In his research, Gunther Enderlein noticed that when bacteria were minute in size they were healthy, he called this stage of development Symbionts. In this stage the Symbionts built and worked with the body. These Symbionts make up our fibrin and platelets for repairing cellular damage and clotting of blood. But when they become enlarged and pathogenic they change into bacteria and fungal formations, referred to as Endobionts which is a direct result of the body moving from a balanced, healthy state to a state of illness and disease.
Pleomorphism is real. We are a body of bacteria and fungus, of anaerobic organisms that live, grow and survive on sugar and protein. they live with us in harmony when we are eating and living in a healthy manner but bacteria and fungus can become extremely harmful and progress out of control if their environment breaks down. This break down is fueled by high complex carbohydrate diets, diets consisting of sugars, polluted water, polluted air, stress, the disturbance of healthy flora in the small and large intestines primarily due to antibiotics and other harmful drugs and toxic chemicals.
This high-powered microscopy system can magnify up to 20,000 times the actual size of the microbes, enabling you and the practitioner to clearly view exact details of the bacterial, fungal, viral and parasitic forms in the blood. Under the microscope one can also view the condition and count of the red and white blood cells and to what degree of oxygen deprivation, parasitic infestation, candida albicans, anemia, thrombosis, rouleauing, fibrin spicules, heavy metal poisoning, uric acid crystals, undigested fat particles, protein linkage, free radical damage, viral activity, hormonal imbalances and stress there is in the system all in just one tiny little drop of blood. Amazing.
This method of diagnosis and patient education differs from the typical American medical establishment that does not look at your live blood, rather their practice is of staining the your blood with chemicals which inevitably kills it before it is analyzed. The chemical is picked up by the cell and cytoplasm but only at the cost of killing all of the living, moving, feeding microorganisms present in the blood. Therefore, these very important factors in the blood become irrelevant and illness and disease cannot be truly detected. These factors (bacteria and fungi) ARE the primary root causes of disease.
“By going to a practitioner who subscribes to the pleomorphic theory, and who uses the kind of microscopy system that enables the observation of the pleomorphic forms, a person can be diagnosed with a disease such as cancer up to eighteen months before it would be diagnosed by even the most sensitive of conventional methods. This kind of early warning can give the patient the greatest chance for recovery and survival.” Says Gaston Naessens, a French biologist.
My friends, my patients ask me repeatedly, “If this microscopy system can show this much information ones state of health, then why don’t the allopathic physicians use it.” My answer, “Because for the majority, it’s the almighty dollar”. It’s big income that trickles down from the FDA, AMA, physicians, pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies and research labs if they can keep you sick until your insurance runs out then when they can’t help you any longer it’s up to you to search for alternatives and God willing by that time it isn’t too late. You see, if they educate you on how to eradicate your health problems through diet and lifestyle changes and natural therapies which cost comparison to the chemotherapy’s, radiation, surgeries and prescription medications then they cannot have their fancy medical facilities, drive their BMW’s and live in their quarter of a million dollar homes. Folks, I work out of my home and drive a Kia and a 1983 chevy cavilier station wagon. I have a Naturopathic Doctor Degree and board certification also but can you see the difference. The majority, not all, shuffle through at least 30 patients a day spending on average perhaps 15 minutes with you. A good naturopath will spend at least an hour with you and only be able to fit in perhaps 8 patients a day.
Pleomorphism is very essential to the understanding of cancer and other potentially degenerative diseases and their cures. As we age, we become increasingly stressed by our diets, emotions, injuries, spiritual disconnections, the air we breathe, the water we drink, and by the fact that we compromise our healthy flora with antibiotics and other harmful drugs. We stop breathing correctly causing oxygen deficiency and over time the bacteria and fungus multiplies relentlessly. We become increasingly anaerobic, more acidic and mal-nutritioned due to bacteria and fungus feeding off of our much needed nutrients - throwing off their mycotoxins or waste products of acetaldehyde, ethanol, alcohol, uric acid, carbon dioxide gas, methane and lactic acid into the blood stream causing blood poisoning and in turn disharmony and disease. If this process is left unchecked, this state worsens, and goes deeper into the tissues, organs, central nervous system, skeletal structure, lymphatic system and bone marrow until the bacteria turns to fungus, the fungus turns to mold and the mold takes over part or all of the body by living off the dead toxins and waste products.
Raymond Keith Brown MD, a physician and former member at the Sloan- Kettering Institute For Cancer Research, asserts “Pleomorphic organisms are demonstrable as the silent stage of a gamut of infections, and they’ve been found in not only cancer patients, but those individuals afflicted with arthritis, multiple sclerosis and other diseases”.
Watching your blood live, on video, on a slide, allows you the patient, to actually see the bacteria, fungus and parasites feeding and growing as the blood loses its nutrition and oxygen. After viewing for yourself, the exact cause of your illness and choosing to reverse the disease process by changing the detrimental diet and lifestyle patterns and by eradicating these potentially life threatening microbes from the body through high quality naturopathic grade natural therapies you are able to restore your health and well-being.
Upon entering the year 2000 there is a new disease paradigm shift. traditional medicine says, “Most disease is caused by germs, so...Kill the germs, kill the microbes, kill whatever is making you sick using drugs, antibiotics, chemotherapy, radiation and surgery”. Naturopathic healing says, “Disease is brought about by imbalance. It’s primarily a nutritional, electrical, structural, biological and spiritual equation. To get well, re-establish balance in the body. Work with it, not against it”. Give yourself the gift of good health and make the commitment today towards discovering Wellness.


Dr. Kimberly Kaye Castaneda is a Naturopathic Doctor that researches and teaches about the benefits of natural non-invasive healing techniques and therapies. Her credentials include Washington DC registration and American Naturopathic Medical Association (ANMA) board certification along with her degree and certification as a Naturopathic Doctor.

[MelanieD]

These anaerobic (living and thriving without oxygen) microbes living on sugar for energy and protein for growth can become enlarged and pathogenic and at certain stages of development change form from bacterial to fungal depending on the environment.

That article is wrong in sooo many ways but the quoted bit it extra 'special'. Bacteria do not change into fungi. Bacteria are prokaryotes with circular DNA and no nucleus separating it from the rest of the cell. Fungi are eukaryotes with multiple chromosomes and a nucleus. One does not change into the other, unless maybe over millions of years of evolution ;). Some bacteria are capable of producing spores which are similar in some ways to fungal spores, doesn't mean they have turned into fungi.

I use borax for treating thrush, works brilliantly and hasn't ever hurt any of the multiple cuts on my hands so can't be too nasty. Don't think I'd want the powder in any cuts, or on my horse's feet, but diluted it's fine.

[Dave Purves]

Dr. Kimberly Kaye Castaneda is a Naturopathic Doctor that researches and teaches about the benefits of natural non-invasive healing techniques and therapies. Her credentials include Washington DC registration and American Naturopathic Medical Association (ANMA) board certification along with her degree and certification as a Naturopathic Doctor.


What type of schooling goes into becoming a "Naturopathic" Doctor? Is that Doctor MD. or PHD or what? And what exactly is "Naturopathic"? And who certifies them? How are they viewed by the rest of the medical community?

Dave

[caballus]

A Licensed naturopathic physician (N.D.) attends a four-year graduate level naturopathic medical school and is educated in all of the same basic sciences as an M.D. but also studies holistic and nontoxic approaches to therapy with a strong emphasis on disease prevention and optimizing wellness. In addition to a standard medical curriculum, the naturopathic physician is required to complete four years of training in clinical nutrition, acupuncture, homeopathic medicine, botanical medicine, psychology, and counseling (to encourage people to make lifestyle changes in support of their personal health). A naturopathic physician takes rigorous professional board exams so that he or she may be licensed by a state or jurisdiction as a primary care general practice physician. Additional information on naturopathic schools can be found at http://www.aanmc.org/.