pasture trim

[dehere98]

What is the difference between a standard farrier pasture trim and a specialized barefoot trim?

Thanks.

[Greg Thomas]

"bout $40

Greg

[caballus]

It depends upon the area of the country. Around here (Central Mass.) pasture trims can run from $35 - $50; specialized natural trims run between $35 & $65, ... so, it depends. It also depends upon the level of skill and education the "natural trimmer" has and what kind of specialized care you are receiving.

--Gwen

[Just passin through~]

What is the difference between a standard farrier pasture trim and a specialized barefoot trim?

Thanks.

Well,this is just an opinion,there is no proof of this ever written! but the real difference between the pasture trim and the specialized trim is that when a horse is pasture trimmed the farrier gets his nippers and raspand goes out into the pasture and trims him~ The specialized trim is when the horse is caught up and the man doesn't have to go out into the pasture. Thats the only difference i know of......................

[caballus]

Oh ... duh! Sorry. I read the first reply and thought that you were looking for $$ differences.

What I have observed, personally, is that a pasture trim is not necesarily6 balanced nor leveled correctly according to each hoof. Some toe is taken off, maybe some wall taken down and usually some sole taken away but that's about it. On the other hand I've seen photos of some very nice pasture trims done by more traditional farriers so can only say that the trim is going to depend on the individual actually *doing* the trim - natural hoofcare trimmer or farrier.

What *I* deem a thorough, GOOD, "Natural" hoof trim entails a close look at the individual horse's conformation, conformation of the limbs, movement of the horse, shape and texture of each individual hoof, balancing the hooves according to the observations and by what the sole is indicating; leveling the hooves so the horse has a level foundation on which to move; (I don't usually trim any sole at all as I feel this is a major protection for the foot inside.) making sure the front hooves are landing heel-first and that the horse is striding out, tracking up straight and shows no indications of lameness or soreness. Ensuring that the horse is standing correctly on the center of weight balance (which will happen if the balancing and leveling of the hooves are correct) and doing this with each individual hoof and horse. I also trim according to the living environment of the horse. Want to make sure their is adequate frog contact during movement; take care of any contraction of the heels; treat any fungus or bacterial infections of the frog or heel, etc. etc. etc.
I usually take about 1/2 hour or so for a maintenance trim while an 'initial' trim (first time) can take anywhere from 45 mins. to over an hour, depending on what is needed to get a first, solid foundational trim established. I also feel that a good natural trim is going to watch the changes that go on each trim from the last one in terms of growth, wear, etc. and the present trim will be influenced by those factors.

I don't know if this answers your question or not but ... there ya go!

:) -- Gwen

[Just passin through~]

Gwendyln? Is the way you described the difference between pasture trim and the better way,the way you do it? I bet it is or how would you have known?
I see you are a senior member? Shame on you..................*G*

[cordell_rogers]

"bout $40

Greg
I still like Greg's answer the best. 'pasture trim' and 'specialized barefoot trim' are just names used for marketing. The industry has no standard for what is included in each.

[Double C Forge]

What *I* deem a thorough, GOOD, "Natural" hoof trim entails a close look at the individual horse's conformation, conformation of the limbs, movement of the horse, shape and texture of each individual hoof, balancing the hooves according to the observations and by what the sole is indicating; leveling the hooves so the horse has a level foundation on which to move; (I don't usually trim any sole at all as I feel this is a major protection for the foot inside.) making sure the front hooves are landing heel-first and that the horse is striding out, tracking up straight and shows no indications of lameness or soreness. Ensuring that the horse is standing correctly on the center of weight balance (which will happen if the balancing and leveling of the hooves are correct) and doing this with each individual hoof and horse. I also trim according to the living environment of the horse. Want to make sure their is adequate frog contact during movement; take care of any contraction of the heels; treat any fungus or bacterial infections of the frog or heel, etc. etc. etc.
-- Gwen


After reading this I feel much better about my work. I do all of the above right before I shape and nail on shoes. :D

Would that qualify me to be a "Barefoot Shoer"?

[caballus]

Well, if you do all of the above then you have sound horses! Tell me why you then put on shoes?

;) --Gwen

[cordell_rogers]

Well, if you do all of the above then you have sound horses! Tell me why you then put on shoes?

;) --Gwen

Let me take this one, Chris.

rate of wear > rate of growth

[Gary Hill]

I'd like to add to this thread , as farriers we all should of course stress that most horses should go barefoot," IF" they are not being used for most performance activites. Gwen, have you ever roped and doctored sick cattle on a barefoot horse? Have you ever ridden a reining horse and stopped and left long 11's barefoot? Have you rode trails through Ark. or Okla. or any other state with lots of rocky terrain? If you can see where I'm going with this, you will see that horse's do need shoes for certain activities! So can we all understand some do good without and others DO need them? Thanks, Gary

[Maryann Kleynendorst]

Do we really need to go down this road again?

[Red Amor]

My clients often ask
I like to stay barefoot or go bare foot but when or why should I shoe my horse

I always say dont shoe if you dont have to
But dont wait untill you have to because the horse will already suffering

So when the ware factor is greater than the regrowth factor or youve been over trimming its hooves and your horse is trying to sit you on your arse on the side of the road because its feet are killing it and you cant do the things you wish to do with your horse the have two options
knock off work and spell him to alowe the hoof to grow and tuffen up or add some form of protection
shoes , old mac's or rebuild the hoof with an appropreiate product


the difference between the standard parture trim and a bare foot trim for the working horse
simply the amount I need to remove and the work to ballence the hoof to help promote good ballence in hoof symetry and weight bareing to suit the horses conformation and the work being asked of it
there are basic guide lines to follow but the idiosincracies of each horse and its living /working conditions will set the rest of the rules or guide lines

Its been said that many Farriers have on idear how to do a barefoot trim
this may be true but some of the bare foot trims Ive seen I wouldnt want to do and would belt you in the ear for trying to do it to my horse
I do believe that it isnt Farriery that stuffs horses feet its bad farriery related practices that do this and or bad owner attitudes
Its not Barefoot trimming thats the problem either is the bad application of the practice and theroies that do so just as in Farriery

I work on a couple thousand horses a year say , all of them are trimed only about a quarter of them are shod I dont have many complaints

I WILL admit that I dont get it right every time but ive fixed more of other peoples ef ups that Ive caused

I also believe that a good Farrier can properly trim a horse particularly one thay have know for a while in 15 minutes doing a very good quallity job adressing the needs of that particular horse

they very often have quite some time ,experience the strenght and skills and tecnuique to do the job quickly efficently while many of the trimmers are thinking about where to put their stool while the horse is soaking in the foot tub
Dont worrie I went through the hollier than thou phase thinking you couldnt possibley do a good job in such a short time , but 12 years in the game has tought me a lot , to be able to see whats good and bad and to be able to use bad to make the good in the short or long run either way whats best for the horse as per what the owner will run to emotionall phisically and financually
after all sadly it often comes down to them and how deep their pocket is and wheather or not its inhabitated be poisionous spiders ;)

[caballus]

Gwen, have you ever roped and doctored sick cattle on a barefoot horse? Have you ever ridden a reining horse and stopped and left long 11's barefoot? Have you rode trails through Ark. or Okla. or any other state with lots of rocky terrain? If you can see where I'm going with this, you will see that horse's do need shoes for certain activities! So can we all understand some do good without and others DO need them? Thanks, Gary

No, I've not roped cattle nor have I ridden a reining horse but I have had clients that have moved from the west to the east and have done these things and then asked why everyone has shoes on! And I have ridden plenty of barefoot horses on rocky, New England trails ... can't get much rockier than old rail beds or high tension wire trails here in NE. My paddocks/pastures are rockier than most trails! So, I believe that some PEOPLE need to have their horses shod for certain activities. ;)
--Gwen

[caballus]

Dont worrie I went through the hollier than thou phase thinking you couldnt possibley do a good job in such a short time

No, I'm sure there are those who can do alot in a shorter time than *I* take .. it's not about time; it's about quality and that's no reflection on you but on me ... it may take *me* longer cause I don't have the stamina that others do. I struggle with energy and strength and age. I wasn't saying anything about time one way or the other. That wasn't the point. The point was that some go in and just chop-chop here and there without the attention to the details - balance, levelness, etc. THAT was the point I was trying to make. Whether or not one takes 10 mins. or 1 hour makes no difference at all (unless charging by the hour) ... the quality and attention of the work makes the difference as far as I've experienced.

--Gwen

[dehere98]

Geesh..
The question has nothing to do with barefootV.shoes.
This forum is geared towards farriers helping owners with barefoot trims.
If you can't stay on topic keep your trap shut!

Thanks Gwen for attempting to answer the question and taking alot of lead in the pants for it. :rolleyes:
Oh, and thanks to the rest of you for nothing.
Sorry, but I'm more confused than before I asked the question. Just the basic, most obvious differences in the trim itself on a normal healthy foot please?

Thanks!

[Forgewizard]

When trimming the horse's overgrown (in other words - NOT worn off) hoof. A competent person needs to be able ti visualize the INside of the hoof! Where are the bones? Where should they be? What can I do to the outside of this hoof to make the inside work as efficiently and correctly for this horse as is possible?

Being able to do this means more than just how deep do I snip or rasp or how to address the flares and cracks in the overgrown hoof standing in front of you.

To do the best job for that horse you HAVE to know physiology, locomotion, nutrition, environmental influences and a bazillion other things that would take the hide off our fingers to type on this forum!

You need to be more specific in your query. What exactly are you trying to ascertain?

[Gary_Miller]

What is the difference between a standard farrier pasture trim and a specialized barefoot trim?
A standard farrier pasture trim is done by a farrier.

A specialized barefoot trim is done by a hoof care specialist.


What is the diffrence between a farrier and a hoof care specialist?

A farrier can and does aanything needed to the hoof, wether that is trimming to go bare foot or trimming to go with shoes. They also can make or modify shoes to take care of all kinds of problems. They don't need to knock slander or accuse material things of causing trouble with horses hooves.

A Hoof Care Specialist only does barefoot trims, and most (not all) accuse shoes as being detrimantal to the horses hooves. They usually don't advicate for the use of shoes, and will go to great length to convince people that their horse can do anything without shoes. However, they advicate the use of boots if your horse is ochy, or you have to ride in rough terrain.

JMHO
Gary

[Red Amor]

Couldnt agree more Gwen

I wasnt haveing a go at any one
simply trying to say that someone well versed in anything will step in and do the job well while many of us are still scratching our bums thinking about it

[caballus]

Dehere ... take a look at this sketch:

http://www.barefoottrim.com/physiology/naturalhoofangles.jpg


A "pasture trim" *should* be no different than a trim done for a high performance horse and as depicted in above illustration. Both trims *should* be the same however, as I stated before, it depends upon the trimmer and what he/she executes in the manner of trim with accordance to the horse's "lifestyle" and work.

I think that many have trouble with the linguistics of "pasture trim" vs "performance trim". A good trim is a good trim is a good trim etc. etc. In reality, a high performance horse traveling miles and miles on trails, barefoot, will not require as much care for the hooves as one that sits in a pasture all day stuffing green grass down its gullet. Only because the performance horse is going to be putting on enough miles to keep its own hooves trimmed pretty decently. Mother Nature is not a ****** woman ;) ... she made the equine hooves to adapt to the terrain on which the hooves reside as long as the rest of the equine "lifestyle" is in place! Horses out in the midwest, wild on the arid ranges, do not have the same hooves as the wild ponies on the Outer Banks of NC. Are the ponies any less sound than the ones out west or visa versa? No. But the hooves on the ponies are not nearly as pretty as the ones on the range. But they're functional with regard to their sandy, soft, damp terrain. The difference lies in the movement of the horses. The horse is meant to move - alot. So, even a poorly executed pasture OR barefoot trim is going to be rectified pretty much naturally if the horse is able to move miles and miles. But then we also have the differences between the hooves of those horse who go under imbalanced riders and those who move under skilled and balanced riders! A whole 'nother topic. Too many variables to get into here. Suffice to say that the "pasture" trim and the "barefoot" trim SHOULD be one and the same. Unfortunately, that's not the case usually.

--Gwen

[Jennifer v]

I am new to posting here. I started to trim myself almost 2 years ago and in my never-ending quest to learn more I found this board. I have been lurking here for months and have learned a lot. I think the most important thing that I have learned is that a good barefoot trim is a good barefoot trim, and it doesn't matter who does it. Every time somebody posts a picture of a hoof looking for help I see the same answers from both the farriers and the trimmers. So it would seem to me that a good farriers trim is almost the same as a barefooter's trim (Unfortunately, the trim my horse was getting caused white line separation from quarter to quarter on both front feet :mad: ). One of the few differences I have noticed is that barefoot people tend to want to put in a bit of a scoop in the quarters, while I don't think I've heard any of the more traditional farriers mention that.

One thing I haven't heard much of here is trimming bars. I know this varies a lot from one barefoot group to another-one group will trim them away, others never touch them, some leave them as long as they are not weight bearing or rolled over into the sole, etc. I would love to hear from some of the farriers on the board about how you deal with the bars?

Thanks! :)

Jen

[John Barney]

The last post says alot. When I moved to MO I was ask my price for a pasture trim and then accused of being high. I only know one way to trim. Later it was explained to me the difference in a pasture trim and a show trim( what I do) is the amount of time and work done. A pasture trim usually involves a run with the nippers and hit it once with the rasp. No concern for flares, symetry, dead sole, ratty frog, rounding the edge, etc. I refuse to trim a horse like that. I don't care if it is a 30yo pasture ornimate or going to the show tomorrow, they get the best job I can do. As Gwen said in her drawing, I too will arch the quarters on a barefoot horse. Keeps them from breaking during the cycle. Hope this helps.

JB

[John Barney]

My reference to the last post was Gwen's, Jenifer beat me to the post button. As for her question about bars, I trim them but don't scoop them way down. I just trim the folded over or thin part until it matches up with where the exfoliated dead sole was removed. Does that make sense? One of those things that is easier shown than told.

JB

[Double C Forge]

Sorry Gwen if I rubbed you the wrong way or someone else that thought I was trying to start an argument. I was only making a joke in the beginning.

To answer your question though: I think great farriers and those of us that want to attain great farriery look at each and every horse that we work on. There is no other way to trim a foot except to the conformation of the individual horse. The foot needs to be balanced in all aspects and flat & level. Nobody can or will argue that point! I for one won't argue the point that some horses do extremely well barefoot and some horses do not. Like ppl, some are more sensitive then others. I don't have near the knowledge as some of the veterans on these forums but I always try to basically do what you said in your post except for the folks that want shoes, or their horse is in an enviroment that requires shoes so the hoofwall will not wear down so fast from overusage.

I was actually agreeing w/ your post and at the same time I guess kinda ribbing you as well w/ my joke. Thats all I was trying to say.

[caballus]

Chris ... no offense taken at all! :) No one has rubbed me the wrong way. I simply address things as I read 'em and feel there might be an apropos reply.

:) --Gwen

[dehere98]

Gwen,

That helps. I don't think hoof trimming is rocket science, but folks can sure make it sound that way.
My new horse comes home next week.
He's got the toughest feet I've ever seen. He marches on golf-ball size gravel as easily as he does grass.
He's a PerchX and his feet don't get trimmed to often, I suppose he's been self trimming mostly.
The toes are long, the soles have concavity, longish bars, white line is good, frog is beautiful.
He needs a trim, but I don't want to mess up a good thing.
I like the theory less is more..

I just don't think I have a good enough eye to tackle this by myself. Thanks to everyone for their help. :)

[Forgewizard]

What would REALLY prove interesting is if you would post photos of your horse's feet!

"He's a PerchX and his feet don't get trimmed to often, I suppose he's been self trimming mostly.
The toes are long, the soles have concavity, longish bars, white line is good, frog is beautiful.
He needs a trim, but I don't want to mess up a good thing.
I like the theory less is more.."

Sounds tlike a typical draft type foot that has not been properly maintained and is owned by a person that doesn't know how to actually SEE the hoof as well as the bones within or the way the horse's conformation is built.

Farrier work may not be "rocket science" but it isn't easy nor is it simple! Knowledge of anatomy is crucial if you want to do the best for that horse. Horses are so forgiving and so used to enduring their lot in life that it isn't until little niggling quirks become big issues that the horseowner finally realizes something is not right! By then the damage is usually done!

It absolutely galls me when a horseowner says -"Oh trimming horses is so simple- see even I can do it!"

Yeah, most anyone can change a car tire/wheel too - but how many of those people know WHAT kind of tire to install to get the best performance from their vehicle or a race car?

If all dobbin's job is to pack around some schlep in the saddle on the weekend then he at least has 5 other days to recover from such abuse. But if dobbin's job is to perform at speed or attain great height or travel great distances - then extensive knowledge is needed and should be utilized to let that horse do what is expected!

You know it isn't the wash of water that destroys the wooden board - its the drip drip drip day after day, year after year. Problems from poor footwork often take years to show up. By then excuses are generally manufactured to avert from the root cause.

[caballus]

I'm also going to pipe in on the "not rocket science" stuff ...

Good example is the 'emergency' appt. I was on yesterday. I was called the night before by a client who was in hysterics! She was trimming up (maintenance tweaking) her horse's hooves (she had been here as a boarder and had done some trimming here under close supervision and she has a good eye BUT, not the experienced feel behind the trim/hoof yet). She trimmed up the RF with no issues but when she got finished with the LF the horse was dead lame on it. YIKES! This is a guy that was just 'discharged' from here and put back into work after having a 'death sentence' of long standing (years) navicular issues but rehabbed and subsequently pronounced 100% sound by vet in August. So, she panicked and I was extremely concerned to say the least! So ... went up yesterday and saw him, saw some critical imbalances, trimmed him up and he went out sound at the walk/trot after his trim. This horse also has issues with muscles from long standing holding patterns due to the navicular and pain so he's having them worked out now. Whether or not he was truly in the extreme pain that his unwilliness to stride out and put weight on that hoof the night before or he was "remembering" the pain of 'yesteryear' and re-acting to triggers, I don't know. But he went out sound, Thank God, after the hoof was balanced and leveled properly. He's fine this morning, too. But those imbalances that were left, unintentionally and *unknowingly* really made a crucial difference and his owner just doesn't yet have the experience or feel to know what to do with full scope.

So, while its not rocket science it does entail much more than being able to utilize the tools and rasp off this or nip off that. "Reading" the hooves is crucial to performance hoofcare and that takes time and experience. I learn something new from each hoof I trim, I think! Some people never get the "feel" or the ability to read the hooves and that's OK ... that just means they shouldn't make a career of hoofcare! ;) But EVERY OWNER ****should**** have a good, solid knowledge of how the hooves work and function and how healthy hooves ****should**** look according to his/her own individual horse and hoof. That is an owner's responsibility when taking on the ownership of a horse.

:) -- Gwen

[Morganslil1]

Not Rocket Science Boy thats a joke if anything a horses hoof is to darn complicated .Not just anyone has the knowledge,temperment or dedication it takes to trim or shoe horses It is a rough *** job to say the least esp with all the rank horses and even worse rank people.
My hats off to all the pros.Ok ill go sit down n shut up now. :rolleyes:

[dehere98]

Hmm..
Don't know anywhere in my post that I made reference to shoeing horses to be easy. I don't know the first thing about it and am just learning about trimming myself.
I don't think I mentioned anything about working on pathological hooves either.
I don't think there is anything closely resembling 'rocket science' in regard to pasture trimming my own horse who has good feet which is in fact what I'm refering to.
A horse that hasn't even come yet!
Sometimes it seems that people just sit around waiting for something to bite! ;)

[Rick Burten]

I don't think there is anything closely resembling 'rocket science' in regard to pasture trimming my own horse who has good feet which is in fact what I'm refering to.
A horse that hasn't even come yet! ;)

Please don't call me when your rocket fails to launch or launches and goes off course.

[Forgewizard]

I don't think there is anything closely resembling 'rocket science' in regard to pasture trimming my own horse who has good feet which is in fact what I'm refering to.
I don't think I mentioned anything about working on pathological hooves either.

Being as there is NO such thing as the perfect horse or perfect hoof - it stands to reason that ALL hooves have some sort of pathology of some degree needing attention. The key to good hoofcare is being able to identify and remedy those pathologies while they are in their infancy!

It's rahter like reading tire wear. A good mechaninc will see minute changes in the wear patterns long before the cupping and feathering is visible to the average car owner! The good machanic then tweaks the suspension or alignment to allow the tires to wear evenly, which of course allows the car to perform at its best!

A good farrier is NOT just looking at the horse's hooves! The wear on the hooves is often directly related to a misalignment of the structure, or poor movement of the muscles. Conversely poor hoof work can cause misalignment of the structure and poor muscle movement. Which is why farriery is an artful science!