AFA Open Forum & Board of Directors Meeting

[Bryan Quinsey]

The AFA General Membership Open Forum Meeting was held on Friday, September 9, 2005 in Omaha, Nebraska.

Over seventy AFA members attended the meeting where attendees where afforded the opportunity to ask questions and make comments regarding farrier education, licensing, and registration.

On Saturday, September 10, 2005, the Mid-Year Board of Directors Meeting was held. The official minutes of that meeting will be available within the next thirty days.

Highlights of the meeting included:

1. The Board approved an Educational Marketing Alliance Agreement with the American Quarter Horse Association.

2. Rescinded a motion passed at the February 23, 2005 meeting of the Board of Directors relating to Farrier Education and Registration.

3. Agreed that all future statements, advertising, and media related material concerning farrier licensing be halted immediately pending review by the Board of Directors.

4. Accepted the recommendation of the Convention Coordinating Committee to hold the 2009 Annual AFA Convention in Chattanooga, Tennessee.

5. Accepted a plan from the Finance Committee to:
a. Create a series of AFA Regional Conferences throughout the country (to begin in 2006).
b. Create a "Horse Owners Desk Reference" that will be distributed by the AFA members.
c. Create a new category of sponsorship called "Certified Education Partner".
d. Enhance the sponsorship opportunities for the 2006 Annual Convention (to be held in Omaha, Nebraska)

6. Approved the offering of a Personal Accident Indemnity Plan and a Personal Cancer Indemnity Plan from AFLAC for AFA members.

7. Re-elected Don Gustafson, CJF as chairman of the AFA Nominations & Elections Committee.

8. Re-elected Jeff Ridley, CJF, TE as the Board of Directors Representative to the AFA Executive Committee.

Additional motions were approved and will be reported in their entirety in the official minutes of the meeting.

[Roy Amaral CJF]

So it's fair to say they killed the whole lisencing/registration/education thing?

Tell me more about #6? What kind of coverage and how much is it going to cost? How do I get a quote? Is this permanent plan or temporary like the health ins. to get our demographics?

Thanks again Bryan.

[Bryan Quinsey]

Roy:

Now that it's approved we'll work it to get a link on our website so members can get a quote. I believe either policy is in the $32 per month range. And it appears that the benefits are very good.

Additional information will be forthcoming.

Bryan

[ray steele]

Bryan,

I am very concerned that you did not answer the first question of Roys' post!

regards

Ray Steele

[Rick Burten]

How many non-AFA members were in attendance on Friday?

Since the BOD rescinded their passed motions on Education, does this proscribe the President from ever again appointing an Ad Hoc Committee to investigate this or any other specific issue, as provided for in Article IV Section 2,(a) of the Bylaws?

Along that line of thought, does this mean that the current Ad Hoc committee is either enjoined from continuing its work or is by fiat, disbanded by the BOD? Can the BOD actually disband an Ad Hoc Committee/Task Force legally appointed by the President?

Inquiring minds just want to know. :o

[R.Revilinski]

I recieved this in an e amil late last night from a friend of mine on the BOD.

Motions were made and carried to:

Rescind resolutions 1,8 and 9 ( these were the resolutions regarding liscensing and school surveys)

The motion to revive the RPFE was defeated

That the executive Director and Executive Committee oppose licensing and registration whenever and where ever it appears.

Does this mean that the Official AFA stance is against licensing, and that it will fight licensing throughout the United States?

[Rick Burten]

I recieved this in an e amil late last night from a friend of mine on the BOD.

That the executive Director and Executive Committee oppose licensing and registration whenever and where ever it appears.

Does this mean that the Official AFA stance is against licensing, and that it will fight licensing throughout the United States?

Since the AFA is a 501c(3) corporation, it is my understanding that it is proscribed from lobbying or other actions of that(political) nature.

Which begs the question, does the BOD understand what being a 501c(3) corporation means and if so, how it will be basically impossible for the ED and the EC to follow the dictates of that resolution?

More to the point and to answer the question, Yes I think that it means that the current official stance of the AFA is against licensing, but in rescinding the other resolutions, it would appear the the BOD is also Anti-education. Which is in direct opposition to and appears to contravene, Article II of the Bylaws.

Which begs the further question, are those actions by the BOD acutally legal and enforceable?

[Phantom Farrier]

Rick,
I believe the AFA is all about education and that hasn't changed, but the resolution you are refering to was the one concerning the AFA butting it's nose into private farrier school's business and that was recinded by the board. Rick, looks like you'll be looking for other work, and a new drum to beat.


Roy,

The train's still rollin'. Although the board was able to derail the train temporarily remember "failure is not an option" "any lengths to acheive the objective".

It is my opinion that the AFA's next move will be an attempt to do away with the board.


Phantom Farrier

John Blombach, CJF

[Roy Amaral CJF]

It is my opinion that the AFA's next move will be an attempt to do away with the board.


http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/legionxs/****.gif

"The AFA" meaning who?

My understanding is that elimiating the BOD would require a change in the By-laws, and only the BOD can do that.

[R.Revilinski]

Roy, I have to agree with John this is far from over, I belive we have bought time and thats all, as for getting rid of the BOD I dont know that, that can be done but there has already been talk of downsizing it, as for bylaw changes it doesnt seem like there has been a huge problem with getting them changed nor does it seem that they are actually followed in a consistent manner.

Rick, the AFA doesnt have to politically lobby to get something done one way is just to actually get the word out (for or against licensing) also a 501c (3) may not be able to lobby but is able to hire a proffesional lobbyist (it may have one sitting in its office allready) and it can align itself with any group that will provide money or be lobbying for something similar (Farnam jumps to mind on the money end)

This is far from over Walt has always wanted licensing and failure is not an option for him, he has set the wheels in motion, we need to remain vigilant and watch our backs, with every failure in this area walt and friends will just get sneakier, smarter and more subtle.

[tbloomer]

Hey folks, It's over. I know it is over because I was there.

The BoD was never interested in pursueing this issue. The EC overstepped their bounds by "taking liberties" in "policy making." Any future pro-licensing talk you hear will not be coming from the AFA. Any one who speaks in favor of licensing and registration is not speaking for the AFA. You can take that to the bank.

Nuther words the official position and policy of the AFA is against licensing and registration. One of the salient points that I got out of the open meeting is that the BoD "thought" that they had already made that clear to the EC last February when they REJECTED the findings of the registration/licensing task force. Evidently the EC did not get the message. The message is now very clear.

I think that in the future you will see a much more vigilant BoD. The EC will not be making AFA public policy or promoting a political view without the approval of the BoD.

Ironically, the socialists who want to control our profession by govrenment regulation have lost their "liberty" to promote their adjenda from within the umbrella of the AFA. Meanwhile, the EC remains free to continue moving forward with the AFA's real adjenda. EDUCATION.

The open meeting and the board meeting were a very emotionally uplifting events for me. I am bursting with pride over the way MY ASSOCIATION and MY Board of Directors handled this situation. Now that I have seen the real AFA in action I understand why so many people have dedicated their lives to this organization.

It was also very clear that Walt, Mike, Craig, et. al. hold very strong socialistic beliefs. They will not let the issue die. However, it will be their own private game from now on. As US citizens they have the freedom to speak out against freedom.

While the rest of us have been here pounding on our keyboards, the Executive Committee has been and continues working their buts off accomplishing great things for the AFA. THAT IS WHY THEY GOT TO KEEP THEIR JOBS.

Folks, the AFA has arrived! This association, MY ASSOCIATION, is bursting at the seams with positive educational initiatives. I am excited about the future of the AFA. I am excited about the work that the Executive Committee has accomplished on behalf of the AFA. I am thankful that this Executive Committee has done so much good work to move the AFA forward.

Now that they will no longer be en***bered with the burden of promoting regulation, the EC has the freedom to continue leading the organization in a positive direction. There are a whole bunch of irons in the AFA fire right now. All of them benefit farriers and the farrier trade.

The AFA train is rolling. There is plenty of room on board for anyone who is pro-farrier, pro-education, and pro-horse. There is even room for pro-sicialists, just no official room for the socialist adjenda.

Tom Bloomer
AMERICAN FARRIERS ASSOCIATION
CERTIFIED FARRIER
. . . soon to be JOURNEYMAN

[Phantom Farrier]

Tom,

Keep up the good work - your'e right it was good to see the democratic process in action and the EC is doing a great job promoting the AFA. That needs not change.


Roy,

Walt and Co.


Phantom Farrier

John Blombach

[Rick Burten]

Rick, the AFA doesnt have to politically lobby to get something done one way is just to actually get the word out (for or against licensing) also a 501c (3) may not be able to lobby but is able to hire a proffesional lobbyist (it may have one sitting in its office allready) and it can align itself with any group that will provide money or be lobbying for something similar (Farnam jumps to mind on the money end)

First, I don't think the AFA has the financial wherewithal to hire a professional lobyist. Nor do I think that the BOD would ever go along with that idea, at least not with regard to the issue of licensing/registration, particularly since that has to be accomplished on a state by state basis.

Also, lets say that for whatever reason(s), Farnam does decide, on its own, to take a pro-licensing stance and begins to publicly voice that stance. What will you do? What would you have the AFA do?

And, lastly, to my knowledge, the only one who has actually publicly voiced an OPINION that the AFA BOD is too large and too unwieldly and should, while maintaing fair and accurate representation of the membership, be reduced in size, is me. (I know this last bit was not part of the original response to me, but I didn't want to write another seperate reply. :o

[R.Revilinski]

I dont know what the AFA financial situation is I do know that grass roots movements can make huge differences with out alot of cash, as for the BOD going along with it again that depends on how involved they are hopefully after this summers debacle they will be more vigilant.

In regards to farnam the rep from farnam that I spoke with said that farnam would support the AFA in whatever path it chose, considering that there are a few in the AFA that are not trustworthy and have the ear of farnam it seems that it must be something we need to watch out for, as for dealing with farnam the discussion of a boycott and public outcry really seemed to cause some concern with them, it would all take alot of work and effort but if a following could be developed that would boycott farnam I am sure that the blackening of there eye in the public venue would make them think about what and who they are backing. Personally I have already started working with other farriers,horseowners,local horse clubs and farmers to spread the word that farnam is bad news to free enterprise.

In reference to the downsizing of the BOD no offense but dont flatter yourself I recieved info from other sources that this was being discussed, a smaller board would be easier to control, your name never came up as the person who suggested this.

Trust is a funny thing it takes years to build but can be trashed in a matter of seconds, regardless of how this meeting went or future meetings go, all farriers and horse owners need to keep an eye on the AFA and especially any splinter groups that may take it upon themselves to push the issue's that have caused so much concern in the last few months.

[Phantom Farrier]

Rick,

I know you think you are the one who first made the suggestion that the BOD is ***bersome and unwieldy, but that has been the feeling of many regimes in the past and the suggestion made on numerous ocasions.

Particularly when the BOD bucks the leadership,they respond with the Board is just too large to listen to reason and must be made smaller and more easily manipulative.

I've served on these so called "restructure of the Board" committees and the conclusion is the same each time. Dictatorships are not ***bersome and unwielding. That is why democracies have checks and balances.

Good proposals fly through the approval process, while controversial ones do not. That is the way democracy works my friend.

Phantom Farrier

John Blombach, CJF

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=Phantom Farrier]Rick,

>I know you think you are the one who first made the suggestion that the BOD is ***bersome and unwieldy, but that has been the feeling of many regimes in the past and the suggestion made on numerous ocasions.

Absolutely correct. I should have qualified my statement by saying, "of late", and "on these boards, to my knowledge, no one but me". And, I sure have not heard of anyone else, recently, who is speaking that position in public. Perhaps your information is different? If so, I think its great. The more folks discussing the subject the better.

>when the BOD bucks the leadership,they respond with the Board is just too large to listen to reason and must be made smaller and more easily manipulative

Perhaps, but I have seen the unpreparedness of the Board in action, on issues large and small. Perhaps it has now changed, but too often, most of the reps come to a meeting with their packets unopened. Since they meet only twice a year, you would think that they could be just a bit better prepared. And, with the size of the board such as it is, should several or all of the reps wish to speak on an issue/subject, the process bogs down. It may be a form of democracy, but the action is slow motion, if at all.

>I've served on these so called "restructure of the Board" committees and the conclusion is the same each time. Dictatorships are not ***bersome and unwielding. That is why democracies have checks and balances.

No one is advocating a change in the democratic process. Merely, a streamlining of it so that it can work efficiently.

>Good proposals fly through the approval process, while controversial ones do not. That is the way democracy works my friend.

ROTFLMAO!. The board has often been nothing more than a rubber stamp. It has approved things because it didn't know, didn't want to take the time, whatever. If that is how things fly through the approval process, then thanks but no thanks. Thats not democracy, thats ******ity. When the question of concern is "Whats for lunch", and the goal is to have the meetings over as quickly as possible(and that has routinely been the case), then the system has become corrupt.

And, while I'm about it, I think that an ammendment to the bylaws stating that a BOD rep must be a member of the chapter he/she is representing AND live in the service area of said chapter , is long overdue. I love democracy, but I hate carpetbaggers.

By the way, someone needs to make a proposal that the membership categories of the bylaws be ammended to include the new certification classification, CTF. It should be done soon, so that it can be on the agenda (per the Bylaws) for the next BOD meeting. So, maybe one of you guardians of democracy will take this up and protect the rights of the CTF's.

And R. Revilinski, you continue to act and write as though you were entitled to some input into the activities of the AFA. Since you are not a member, you're not so entitled. And, I once again ask you, what was you AFA member number when you were a member? And, should I or anyone else decide to form a "splinter group" and pursue whatever agenda I/we decide, what exactly do you think you are going to be able to do about it?

In fact, should I decide, on my own, to pursue , for example, a survey of farrier education in the US, and if I find myself a computer whiz and a data base analyst to collate the public and already readily available information , and then create a web site with that information, and then send that iformation to every Tom, Dick and Harry I can think of, including all the magazines, insurance companies, and other companies within the horse industry, what is anyone going to do about it? And, if you think that the little tempest in a teapot that we just went through caused consternation, imagine what a storm of that magnitude will do. And the truth of the matter is that there will be absolutely nothing that you'll be able to do about it. Why? because by the time you get wind of it, it will be too late and you(individually and collectively)will have been caught with your pants down.

I'll also be interested in seeing how the AFEC now acts. Since it is their stated agenda to formalize a curriculum including written and practical exams, I think it will be great that they are doing the work that they so condemned the AFA for suggesting. Since the farrier education industry enjoys such widespread respect and acclaim, the work of this council and its effect on farrier education, should be worth beholding. That is, if, now that the AFA is out of the picture, the paper tiger has any ability to roar.

[Patrick Kocher]

Hey Rick,

Why don't you bring back your friggin' happiness fairy to help us celebrate? (Seriously, I did like it.)

I was having a good day anyway but reading this thread gave me an extra boost. A big, heartfelt thank you to Bloomer, Blombach and anyone else who was able to attend the meeting and represent the American way! Wish I could have been there.

Keep up the good work.
Patrick

[Phantom Farrier]

Funny now as we near the pinacles of our careers, success all around, two SUV's, a summer house, a winter house, two kids in college, long vacations in warm climates - all because, directly or indirectly, some farrier school took our sad butts in off the street and taught us the best trade in the business and gave us a life second to none, we choose to thank those schools with a slap in the face. I hope we will be capable of making amends to those we harmed with false statements, inuendo and outright lies.

All the media outlets picked up the stories and went public. How can we ever fix that?

We as an Association should and will begin at once picking up the pieces and making those amends. I for one personally apologize for any harm my Association did to the reputations of those schools and hope that the students can become part of our wonderful Organization.

AFA needs to establish an Outreach program to meet students and nurture them and provide mentoring service to those willing. We could also provide students with a year's free membership and/or a free registration to our Convention. Perhaps an AFA member would "sponsor" a student and pay the fees. I would be willing to help in this way. Is this a bad idea?

Phantom Farrier

John Blombach, CJF

[R.Revilinski]

Rick I am really sick and tired of argueing with you, you just dont seem to get it do you?

Instead of asking me why I think I should have a say as a non member in what the AFA is doing and has done why dont you ask why the AFA tried to stick its nose in my business?

You are absolutely right I dont have a say in the AFA I dont want a say in the AFA and frankly after what I have seen this past summer I dont think I will ever rejoin the AFA.
Now with that said answer this question for me,
What makes the AFA or any other two bit group think they have the right to have a say in my business? What Makes them think that I as an independent business man should adhere,conform to the regulations that they set forth?

I know alot of people in the AFA and the BWFA they are very happy it works for them great run with it but I choose not to be part of the organization, so again it comes back to I dont give a fly rats butt what AFA farriers do register them license them regulate them out of the business, just leave me and mine alone in process.

As far as my old AFA number none of your business once again I am an american I am free I am over 21 I do not have to justify myself to you or any orginization.

As long as the AFA keeps out of my business I will co exist with them as I have done since I left the AFA I was out shoeing today right alongside a very good friend of mine who is an AFA CJF funniest thing happened we each got paid the same amount for the horses we shod.

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=R.Revilinski]
>Instead of asking me why I think I should have a say as a non member in what the AFA is doing and has done why dont you ask why the AFA tried to stick its nose in my business?

The AFA will do what the AFA will do. Don't like it? Tough Bat Guano. I couldn't care in the least whether or not your own little piece of the world is or is not affected by what my organization does. As long as the AFA functions the way its members want it to, I am satisfied. You choose not to be a part of the AFA. Fine with me. If something happens to you along the way as a result of things done by the AFA for the AFA, thats just how it is. Just as you may reap the benefits of what the AFA is able to accomplish, so may you reap some of the consequences. Cry and whine about it all you want. Your voice, your tears, your protestations are meaningless chaff, well below the radar screen.

>You are absolutely right I dont have a say in the AFA I dont want a say in the AFA and frankly after what I have seen this past summer I dont think I will ever rejoin the AFA.

This is somehow supposed to bother or upset me?


>Now with that said answer this question for me,
What makes the AFA or any other two bit group think they have the right to have a say in my business? What Makes them think that I as an independent business man should adhere,conform to the regulations that they set forth?

The AFA will do what it deems best for the membership, with the approval of the membership. You don't have to conform to anything. But, if you get caught up, unprepared in the resultant actions, look to your mirror and no where else to assign blame and recriminations. You're not part of the solution, just part of the problem.

>I know alot of people in the AFA and the BWFA they are very happy it works for them great run with it but I choose not to be part of the organization, so again it comes back to I dont give a fly rats butt what AFA farriers do register them license them regulate them out of the business, just leave me and mine alone in process.

Sorry, but a rising tide floats all but the foundered boats.

>As far as my old AFA number none of your business once again I am an american I am free I am over 21 I do not have to justify myself to you or any orginization.

ROTFLMAO! I think you are nothing but a blow hard liar who never ever was a member of the AFA. And, absent any proof to the contrary, I will continue to call you a liar. In fact, there is not even any evidence that you actually are a farrier. Just because you say you are a farrier, especially in light of your continued failure to show differently, says to me that that is a lie too.

>As long as the AFA keeps out of my business I will co exist with them as I have done since I left the AFA

Liar. There is no evidence that you ever where a member of the AFA.

>I was out shoeing today right alongside a very good friend of mine who is an AFA CJF

Liar. There is no evidence that you are even a farrier, let alone that you work for a living.

Prove me wrong. Do so and I shall be more than happy to issue an apology and retraction. Otherwise, continue to be branded a liar.

[Ronald E. Kramedjian]

we choose to thank those schools with a slap in the face. I hope we will be capable of making amends to those we harmed with false statements, inuendo and outright lies.

All the media outlets picked up the stories and went public. How can we ever fix that?

We as an Association should and will begin at once picking up the pieces and making those amends. I for one personally apologize for any harm my Association did to the reputations of those schools and hope that the students can become part of our wonderful Organization.


John,

While there have been undiplomatic and unfocused statements that the schools and their mouth piece have twisted around to make the accusation that the AFA has defamed them, it is in my opinion a defamation of their own making not of the AFA's making.

As far as I know, and no one has provided me with a single factually do***ented claim to the alternative, no school was ever named in any of the AFA’s discussions of the issue. In fact one of the school owner was calling for the AFA to address the issue of illegal schools that are substandard by specifically requested that they be excluded from the now defunct farrier school survey process. In actual fact this school owner even went to the trouble of actually naming one of the substandard school owners and requested that that person and their schools be specifically excluded from the survey. It would seem to me that just by making that request, on the record, was an admission that the AFA was right to believe that there were substandard schools and yet that same school owner has gone to great lengths to cry fowl in public. I for one know hypocrisy when I see it.

In my opinion, if the AFA needs to apologize to anyone for anything it is for allowing the original education/registration/licensing task force put out a report on such a critical issue that was not supported by sound research and solid fact. It was that unsupported report and its unsupported contentions that the schools have used to smear the AFA, its elected leadership and those willing try to make a difference. In this case the AFA should apologize, but it should be to its membership for allowing such shoddy workmanship into the light of day.

That the schools have managed to get the resolutions from February reversed is an issue that the AFA membership should be concerned over. When you examine the actual facts it is not at all difficult to see that a special interest group has managed to use innuendo, subjective opinions, out right lies, bluster, and the threat of litigation to pervert our association’s agenda. That is something that anyone with an ounce of actual integrity, a commitment to finding the unbiased truth and a real commitment to the AFA should be concerned over, because if it could happen once it can happen again.

Oh yes, I forgot. Those that chose to engage in the smear of the AFA did so while trying to wrap themselves in the cloak of the righteous indignation of the perfect ones as if they were the keepers of all that is holy and right for the members of the AFA while completely and totally disregarding the damage that they were trying to do the reputations of those involved and to the always frail fabric of trust that every organization need to have between those being governed and those governing, with almost no thought to behaving like honorable, intelligent and well balanced adults. And they did so claiming their membership in the AFA as their guide.

To date no one has ever proven that any member of the EC or the EC as a group have ever acted in any way other than that which was guided by their commitment to serve the AFA to the best of their abilities and based upon their beliefs of what is right and good for the membership. To me it takes a lot more honor to do what you believe is right and honorable when you know it is going to be hard and unpopular than it does to do that which easy and is popular. I’d ask you how much honor and integrity it takes to attack them without an ounce of proof supporting what you say? I'd also ask were it is written that any of us have to agree with something for it to justify our continued honorable and civil discourse over our disagreements?

So no I’m sorry in my opinion the schools in general were neither due an apology, nor have they behaved in a manner that justifies one.

Ron

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Tom Bloomer in gray, deletia

Hey folks, It's over. I know it is over because I was there.

The BoD was never interested in pursueing this issue. The EC overstepped their bounds by "taking liberties" in "policy making." Any future pro-licensing talk you hear will not be coming from the AFA. Any one who speaks in favor of licensing and registration is not speaking for the AFA. You can take that to the bank.

Thanks and a tip of the hat for taking the time to attend and post the happenings to this forum. I greatly appreciate your effort and reportage.

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=Phantom Farrier] > I hope we will be capable of making amends to those we harmed with false statements, inuendo and outright lies.

Lets start with apologies and amends to the officers of the AFA and other individuals connected in any way to the AFA who were harmed byindividuals making demonstrable false statements, inuendo and outright lies.

>All the media outlets picked up the stories and went public. How can we ever fix that?

Same way as above. All those who cried "foul" the loudest and longest can write to the media outlets and express their regret and offer their apologies to all those who were targets of the false statements, inuendo and outright lies. The AFA leadership comes to mind as being among those who should be issued said apologies.

As to the schools etal. Those who took offense, probably had reason to do so. The truth , as Tom Stovall might point out, is an absolute defense. Those schools who know that they were/are not 'targets' of the truth, had/have nothing to fear or be ashamed of or to feel victimized. Proof of the veracity of the assessments made? 1. Butler's statements. 2. The mere fact that an organization now known as AFEC came into existance, with its stated purpose and goals, provides the truth of the matter. For, if that which was stated by the AFA is so wrong, so far out in left field, then why form said council and give it the purpose(s) and goal(s) so stated? "The truth is an absolute defense". So, it seems that only the schools(and by inference, their graduates), that really knew the truth but were trying to hide from it, were affected. To them, there is no apology due. In fact, those schools, and they know who they are, owe their graduates an apology. I doubt that one will ever be forthcoming. The other schools, and their graduates don't need an apology. They know the truth and are not bothered or adversely affected by it.

On another note, I finally got my current copy of the AFJ. While at first the Journal seemed to be giving an accurate account of the situation, as I read deeper into the articles, it became apparent that someone did not do their homework. There was a continuation of the false statements, inaccuracies in reporting the facts, and as it turned out, an apparent hatchet job done to the AFA. Personally I expected better than the yellow journalism that infects those pages devoted to this issue/subject. But, thats JMNTBCHO, and since as everyone keeps pointing out, since this is America, I'm entitled to it, and to voice/write it.

AMERICA! What a country!!

[R.Revilinski]

Rick you can say what you want and belive what you want you can call all the names you can think of, you can go on running your mouth with your blustering and bully tactics but to paraphrase walt READ MY LIPS I dont care what you say or think.

Never have you directly answered the question that has been asked many times on this forum and others.

WHAT MAKES THE AFA THINK THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO TRY TO ENFORCE REGULATIONS THAT WOULD AFFECT FARRIERS WHO ARE NOT INVOLVED IN THE AFA?

Now Rick just for the sake of argument TRUTHFULLY tell all of us what your reaction would be if this whole frigging mess had been started by the BWFA?

If the shoe were on the other foot would you rush out join the BWFA so you could vote? What would you do HONESTLY?

[Phantom Farrier]

Ron,

You seem to have a need to defend the indefensible. How much are you being paid?

I have no axe to grind with anyone - members, non-members, leaders, schools etc. The schools do a spendid job considering what they have to work with. Never having the opportunity to attend a school myself, I've had to rely on mentors, working long hours, sleeping in barns, paying my dues, always envying the oportunity you had by paying a few bucks and going to a school to learn your basics. When anyone throws stones they are damaging their own credibility and makes us all look like *****s - It brings down an entire profession.

You sit in your fine homes and drive your fine autos and enjoy that life that the farrier schools gave opportunity for then turn around and put the mouth on them - shame on you.

Phantom Farrier

John Blombach, CJF

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=R.Revilinski]
>Never have you directly answered the question that has been asked many times on this forum and others.

Liar. That is demonstrably incorrect. Prove me wrong if you can. And while you are doing it, remember that "never" is an absolute.

>WHAT MAKES THE AFA THINK THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO TRY TO ENFORCE REGULATIONS THAT WOULD AFFECT FARRIERS WHO ARE NOT INVOLVED IN THE AFA?

Same right as any special interest group.

>Now Rick just for the sake of argument TRUTHFULLY tell all of us what your reaction would be if this whole frigging mess had been started by the BWFA?

Truthfully, I couldn't care less. I'd probably opine as to what a joke it would be for the BWFA to be authoring , based on its less than stellar credibility, any position on the subject. Is that a direct enough answer for you?

>If the shoe were on the other foot would you rush out join the BWFA so you could vote? What would you do HONESTLY?

You couldn't get me to be a member of the BWFA if you paid the membership for me. And, I'd look to my associations , the AFA and the GPF to take positions on the subject.
Honest and truthful enough for you?

[Phil Armitage]

The way I see it nobody needs to apologize to anyone. This is a discussion that needs to take place openly and honestly. Would there have been an AFA open forum otherwise? I do not think so.

Personaly I feel this constant mention of smearing and apologies is a bunch of ****. discuss things openly and honestly, tell it like you see it.

Bryan Quinsey has at least joined in on this forum and communicated.

The only other AFA official I have seen on here was Craig Trnka and that was to challenge Patty on NB shoeing. He was also very sarcastic and tried to be intimidateing, (which actually came across as pathetic) challenging Patty to put up or shut up. The way I see it, it appears Craig has shut up. Oh, I forgot he will speak if you pay him to debate with Gene.

Why should I pay to listen to that, when I can get better information from better people that are more open, honest and helpfull right here on this forum for free.

If Craig has something to say, why can't he say it right here? He puts his pants on the same way the rest of us do.

Rick and Bryan, before you speak on Craigs behalf, let him respond if he wants. I do not have the luxury of an official spokes person why should he. This BS of self importance and self rightous is makeing me sick. Be a man, be a farrier and debate thing openly and honestly. This forum provides a great opportunity to do so.

[R.Revilinski]

Sorry Rick it was your usual non answer, like I said before your like an episode of Seinfeld, yadda yadda yadda blah blah blah

[Rick Burten]

Rick and Bryan, before you speak on Craigs behalf, let him respond if he wants. I do not have the luxury of an official spokes person why should he. This BS of self importance and self rightous is makeing me sick. Be a man, be a farrier and debate thing openly and honestly. This forum provides a great opportunity to do so.

Phil,

I am not in disagreement with you on this subject, nor will I attempt to speak on Craig's behalf on this matter. I have not done so in the past, and I see no reason to do so now.

And, it is my sincere hope that you and everyone else realizes that my position on the subject that has consumed us for much of the spring and summer, has not been about defending any one individual. It has been about, defending the AFA, of which, I am a member. My position has remained one that has countered the lies, misinformation, innuendo and allegations proffered by some well intentioned but misguided individuals, and several less than well intentioned miscreants. It was not until very late into the discussions that anyone even thought to inquire as to my personal position on the subjects. And, even then it was not truely germane. And it is not germane because my position doesn't matter. Pro or con or otherwise, I just gave the facts. And, the facts presented a much different picture than the lies, allegations and innuendo that were presented as facts, but exposed for what they were/are.
To wit: nonsense. And nonsense fueled by emotion or other agendas, not rational thought and/or investigation.

We should be asking ourselves who are these people who continue to make these comments, what is their purpose, and why should we trust them?

Personally, I have been accused of several things, among them, being a paid employee of the AFA. Yet, when called upon to provide proof of this accusation, the accusor, simply crawfished away, not even man enough to admit his error or apologize for it(not that it mattered, but being a 'stand-up' person willing to admit mistakes and take responsibility for one's words and actions, speaks volumes about character, ethics, morals, integrity)

If anyone feels that I have been less than open and honest, then point out where and if it is so, I will apologize.

[Rick Burten]

Rick I am really sick and tired of argueing with you..

ROTFLMAO! Liar, this is demonstrably another lie. And, pleases me to know that you are both sick and tired.

...to paraphrase walt READ MY LIPS I don't care what you say or think

Liar. Demonstrably not the case.

I do want to publicly thank you for continuing to be cannon fodder and cannon fodder of your own making. Yet again, you are hoist by your own petard.

[Phil Armitage]

Rick, your involvement on this forum has been very helpfull and you have alot to offer, your one of the better folks that I was thinking of when I said I have learned from better people for free, thank you. You are very honest and very generous with your time, helping farriers and horse owners and you call it like you see it, therefore I have learned to trust you. I may not agree with everything you say, but I think most of us agree to disagree.

Rick, it has not gone unoticed that all summer long you have taken the time to help horse owners. Many farriers on this forum have unselfishly given alot of time in the evenings and early mornings checking in to see who they can help out. This is the best Hoof care forum on the Internet and it is people like you that make it that way, for no charge. What is ironic most of us are contributeing members so we pay to help others.

I undertand Craig won't participate on an open forum because he doesnt want to be attacked. But he is bold enough to make strong condensending statements about the farrier trade in the PF along with his poster boy image.

Hey I wonder if my 5' 7" frame with my pot belly would sell products. Farriers should be judged by what they do, not how we look, I thought this trade was above all that ****.

[R.Revilinski]

Rick I will have to look back I dont belive anyone accused you of being an employee of the AFA I do belive you were asked several times if you were an employee, and on at least one occasion you were asked what office you were running for, I also seem to remeber you being pretty heavy into bashing the schools something to the effect of "now there dirty little secret is out" again I dont belive you ever lied but then again you never actually told the truth, now twisting things that were said putting them in a different context, bullying, belittleing,name calling, intimidation those are just a few of the things you have done oh lets not forget personal attacks, but I digress.

To make this simple can you answer a question yes or no? if you can pleas answer this one.


If a special interest group started to push for regulations that would restrict your business and affect your income would you fight that group?

Simple yes or no this question is simpler than the AFA member survey

[Phil Armitage]

Rick I will have to look back I dont belive anyone accused you of being an employee of the AFA I do belive you were asked several times if you were an employee, and on at least one occasion you were asked what office you were running for, I also seem to remeber you being pretty heavy into bashing the schools something to the effect of "now there dirty little secret is out" again I dont belive you ever lied but then again you never actually told the truth, now twisting things that were said putting them in a different context, bullying, belittleing,name calling, intimidation those are just a few of the things you have done oh lets not forget personal attacks, but I digress.

To make this simple can you answer a question yes or no? if you can pleas answer this one.


If a special interest group started to push for regulations that would restrict your business and affect your income would you fight that group?

Simple yes or no this question is simpler than the AFA member survey

Yes, for me.

[Patrick Kocher]

Right on, Phil.

Rick Burten - On another note, I finally got my current copy of the AFJ. While at first the Journal seemed to be giving an accurate account of the situation, as I read deeper into the articles, it became apparent that someone did not do their homework. There was a continuation of the false statements, inaccuracies in reporting the facts, and as it turned out, an apparent hatchet job done to the AFA. Personally I expected better than the yellow journalism that infects those pages devoted to this issue/subject. But, thats JMNTBCHO, and since as everyone keeps pointing out, since this is America, I'm entitled to it, and to voice/write it.

Rick, we have been through this junk already, but since you have become so fond of calling Revilinski liar and demanding proof (and for the record, his comments are utterly irrelevant to me, since they are not supported by fact, and many of them are of such a nature that such support would be impossible), would you be so kind as to post on this thread in reply the actual, word for word, false statements, inaccuracies and what you refer to as a hatchet job done to the AFA by the Journal?

You have not hesitated to crusade against the admittedly unfair accusations made against the AFA, but you have engaged in identical attacks on "the schools," (whoever they are,) and now you have opened fire on Mr. Lessiter's coverage of the situation. Fair enough, if you have the proof in hand, but with your readiness to demand proof of others, you ought to have presented your own along with the accusation. Can we be consistent for just one time? Please?

And one last time, to both you and Revilinski; must you really clutter this discussion with such absolute rot just so you can have the last word? I suppose there exists in the darker side of human nature some level of enjoyment of such inane exchanges as the two of you have been engaged in, but speaking only for myself, the novelty wore off long ago and has been repaced with unalloyed contempt. I am not subject to the delusion that either of you cares what I think, but I am sure that no one reading your posts will be left with any impression of professionalism, or even observable maturity beyond a preschooler's level. Rick, you at least are capable of better, I would hope Mr. Revilinski is likewise. Do either of you really feel that you gain anything by discoursing on such a level?

I promise not to ask you again.
Patrick

[Rick Burten]

Rick, your involvement on this forum has been very helpfull and you have alot to offer, your one of the better folks that I was thinking of when I said I have learned from better people for free, thank you. You are very honest and very generous with your time, helping farriers and horse owners and you call it like you see it, therefore I have learned to trust you. I may not agree with everything you say, but I think most of us agree to disagree.


Phil,

(I hope I say/get this right.) First , thank you. I wasn't looking for anything personally out of my response(s) to you. We've had our differences(is that putting it too mildly?) but like most who frequent these forums, I find you to be a 'stand up" guy and am glad to have made your aquaintance and would fly high cover for you anytime.

Much of what I have become as a farrier I owe to the AFA and the Land of Lincoln Horseshoers Association and before that entity, the Illinois Licensed Horseshoers Association. I think John said it best in his reply to the question on what the AFA has done for him/us.

All the hard work and good intentions in the world are not enough to have made me better had I not had the help, input and inspiration I found and continue to find by being a member of first the AFA,LLHA(ILHA), and now the GPF too.

I owe much to many, and though I regularly try, I feel that I do not give back nearly enough.

[Ronald E. Kramedjian]

You seem to have a need to defend the indefensible. How much are you being paid?

I have no axe to grind with anyone - members, non-members, leaders, schools etc. The schools do a spendid job considering what they have to work with. Never having the opportunity to attend a school myself, I've had to rely on mentors, working long hours, sleeping in barns, paying my dues, always envying the oportunity you had by paying a few bucks and going to a school to learn your basics. When anyone throws stones they are damaging their own credibility and makes us all look like *****s - It brings down an entire profession.

You sit in your fine homes and drive your fine autos and enjoy that life that the farrier schools gave opportunity for then turn around and put the mouth on them - shame on you.

Phantom Farrier

John Blombach, CJF

John,

First, you are the second person that has accused me of having sold my honor. So for the record I expect you to retract that statement in this forum for the unsupported, defamatory and slanderous lie that it is. I take issues of honorable conduct and truth quite seriously. If you chose to not retract that accusation I would suggest you be prepared to prove its truth in another venue.

Second, I am not defending the indefensible. I am insuring that someone actually is making factual statements about the conduct of the AFA's EC, etc ... I would hope that someone seeking office in my association would be thankful that someone is actually concerned about the truth and the good treatment of our elected officials. It means that should you be fortunate enough to win the job you claim to be qualified for that I would be defending you from the self righteous zealots that will undoubtedly follow your current example and be screaming for your blood when you handle something in an undiplomatic or hand handed way with no ill intent. And do not doubt that I would defend you because honor would requirement to treat you the same way I would treat anyone else.

Third, I did not go to farrier school. Instead I learned from the man that was shoeing for me. I then shod my own horses under his supervision. I then went and worked with him on his clients horses and finally at the urging three separate equine veterinarians I began shoeing horses for the public. The schools are what they are and most of them are good at what they are doing and unfortunately some are not as good. That is a fact in evidence. Another fact in evidence is that it appears that they have become so powerful in driving our association’s agenda that you, a candidate for an important office in our association, are pandering to their agenda and attacking those that are not willing to just accept their opinions of their treatment lock stock and barrel. Please explain to me and all to the other AFA members how this perception is not accurate.

Fourth, since I do not believe that you would have accused me of being paid without prompting I will explain to you and thus to the person that I suspect is prompting you how I made my living for the 29 years before I retired from that carrier to start my carrier as a professional farrier. I made my living by being hired to go into corporations all over the country with the purpose of restructuring their Information Technology organizations. I have held management consulting, executive, senior management and middle management positions in companies of all sizes for the last 26 of those 29 years and in programming management for the 3 years before that. In other words I made my living by being able to use logic, truth and facts to solve serious business problems in companies where millions of dollars were being committed to my decisions on a regular basis. In that profession my integrity, honesty, and professional attitude put me in a position to control IT organizations that literally moved billions of dollars a year between client accounts electronically in some of the most secure environments in the world.

Fifth, I would like you to again note that I said I also worked as a consultant during that 29 years before I started my full time farrier carrier so if the AFA were to wish to hire me to consult they would be required to pay me my normal fee of $2,000 per day plus expenses. Of course I would only be willing to take engagements that related to IT and managing IT organizations. Since the AFA has a severely limited budget I suspect that my rate is a bit high and beside that there doesn’t seem to be a way for the EC to hide that big a bill from the BoD.

Finally, since I earned everything I have before I became a farrier I have no problem calling you on the last bit of your ill informed diatribe. The farrier schools have done not one damn thing for me except in my opinion to show my how to not behave toward others.

So I have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of, can you say the same?

Now I strongly suggest you publish your retraction as soon as you possibly can.

Ron

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=R.Revilinski]
>To make this simple can you answer a question yes or no? if you can pleas answer this one.

Only if the question has a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer. (your following question does not fit the requirement)

>If a special interest group started to push for regulations that would restrict your business and affect your income would you fight that group?

The simple answer is , "Yes" if it could be proven that that which the group was doing restricted my business and affected my income.

>Simple yes or no this question is simpler than the AFA member survey

Sorry, but your question is a logical fallacy that cannot be answered with a simple "yes" or "no"

[R.Revilinski]

Ok Rick once again you have given us yadda yadda yadda blah blah blah

Simple yes or No and you cant do it,

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=R.Revilinski]>Rick I will have to look back I dont belive anyone accused you of being an employee of the AFA I do belive you were asked several times if you were an employee,

Ah, the nuance of the written word! Do you perchance recall my answer to your question?

>and on at least one occasion you were asked what office you were running for,

Again, do you perchance recall my answer?

>I also seem to remeber you being pretty heavy into bashing the schools something to the effect of "now there dirty little secret is out"

To quote Tom Stovall, "The truth is an absolute defense".

By the way, what did you think of Patty's evaluation of the school she attended?

>again I dont belive you ever lied but then again you never actually told the truth,

How so? Be good enough to offer some proof of your allegation. More to the point, if as you now state I never lied, then how could I not have told the truth?

And since we are now being so open, honest and truthful, truthfully, what was your AFA member number?

>now twisting things that were said putting them in a different context,

Cites?

> bullying, belittleing,name calling, intimidation those are just a few of the things you have done oh lets not forget personal attacks, but I digress.

That you feel that you were bullied, or intimidated, makes me wonder what your spine is made of. Further, I'm impressed that you are intimidated by the written word. I like the concept: intimidation by use of proper grammar and the written word. ROTFLMAO! Are you really that callow and shallow?

I would, in the future, engage in monosyllabic reparte' with you or anyone else who felt so belittled, bullied or intimidated, but that would cause my father to turn over in his grave, and after all these years, I really have no interest in disturbing his eternal sleep.

I'll plead guilty to name calling, but you by now have noted that I reserve my causticity, sarcasm, or whatever, for a few choice individuals whom I have felt and still feel, well earned it. I suppose too, that if one cares to feel belittled, then that's just fine with me. Seek and you shall receive.

Oops, I almost forgot that personal attacks charge.

Guilty again. And I report, unashamedly so. The art of the ad hominen is one which I continue to work to perfect. Therefore, I take advantage of the opportunity to improve my grasp and use of the technique. By the way, would you say that you have been heavenly angelic on this subject?

Not being of the Christian persuasion, I am not enc*mbered with the admonishment, "Turn the other cheek".

Were I pressed, my philosophy might contain some or all the following elements:

"Do unto others before they do unto you"
"Better judged by twelve than carried by six"
"Don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining"
"Never underestimate the power of ****** People in large groups"
"Its easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission"
"I don't mind a P*ssin' contest as long as everyone involved gets wet"

As Yul Brenner in "The King and I" said, "etcetera, etcetera, etcetera...."

He(Yul, that is) also said, "Shall we dance...?"

[Phil Armitage]

John,

First, you are the second person that has accused me of having sold my honor. So for the record I expect you to retract that statement in this forum for the unsupported, defamatory and slanderous lie that it is. I take issues of honorable conduct and truth quite seriously. If you chose to not retract that accusation I would suggest you be prepared to prove its truth in another venue.

Who was the first, was it me?

Second, I am not defending the indefensible. I am insuring that someone actually is making factual statements about the conduct of the AFA's EC, etc ... I would hope that someone seeking office in my association would be thankful that someone is actually concerned about the truth and the good treatment of our elected officials. It means that should you be fortunate enough to win the job you claim to be qualified for that I would be defending you from the self righteous zealots that will undoubtedly follow your current example and be screaming for your blood when you handle something in an undiplomatic or hand handed way with no ill intent. And do not doubt that I would defend you because honor would requirement to treat you the same way I would treat anyone else.

You are insureing that someone actully is makeing factual statements, where and how did you get all the facts?

Third, I did not go to farrier school. Instead I learned from the man that was shoeing for me. I then shod my own horses under his supervision. I then went and worked with him on his clients horses and finally at the urging three separate equine veterinarians I began shoeing horses for the public. The schools are what they are and most of them are good at what they are doing and unfortunately some are not as good. That is a fact in evidence. Another fact in evidence is that it appears that they have become so powerful in driving our association’s agenda that you, a candidate for an important office in our association, are pandering to their agenda and attacking those that are not willing to just accept their opinions of their treatment lock stock and barrel. Please explain to me and all to the other AFA members how this perception is not accurate.

How long did you apprentice for and what did you learn? Why didnt you go to school? Most farriers go to school and then apprentice, do you see a problem with that? If you do, then please explain. Where did you get the facts that the schools are driveing the associations agenda? Why do you consider your remarks to be honest and others to be lies?

Fourth, since I do not believe that you would have accused me of being paid without prompting I will explain to you and thus to the person that I suspect is prompting you how I made my living for the 29 years before I retired from that carrier to start my carrier as a professional farrier. I made my living by being hired to go into corporations all over the country with the purpose of restructuring their Information Technology organizations. I have held management consulting, executive, senior management and middle management positions in companies of all sizes for the last 26 of those 29 years and in programming management for the 3 years before that. In other words I made my living by being able to use logic, truth and facts to solve serious business problems in companies where millions of dollars were being committed to my decisions on a regular basis. In that profession my integrity, honesty, and professional attitude put me in a position to control IT organizations that literally moved billions of dollars a year between client accounts electronically in some of the most secure environments in the world.

Impressive, what do you know about horses and horseshoeing? How long have you been shoeing? I am sure John Bloomback can teach you a few things, do you have any clue who he is?

Fifth, I would like you to again note that I said I also worked as a consultant during that 29 years before I started my full time farrier carrier so if the AFA were to wish to hire me to consult they would be required to pay me my normal fee of $2,000 per day plus expenses. Of course I would only be willing to take engagements that related to IT and managing IT organizations. Since the AFA has a severely limited budget I suspect that my rate is a bit high and beside that there doesn’t seem to be a way for the EC to hide that big a bill from the BoD.

If you can make 2,000.00/day consulting why did you give that up. Do you make that much or more as a farrier?

Finally, since I earned everything I have before I became a farrier I have no problem calling you on the last bit of your ill informed diatribe. The farrier schools have done not one damn thing for me except in my opinion to show my how to not behave toward others.

How can a school do anything for you? You chose not to go!!!!

So I have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of, can you say the same?

I am absolutely positive he can say the same.

Now I strongly suggest you publish your retraction as soon as you possibly can.

I personaly do not see where he was slanderous, you are over reacting. He simply asked a question and probably was in jest. If you can't stand the heat then don't get near the forge and anvil.

Ron

Ron, care to anwer any of my questions, I find you to be very hostile and defensive.

[Rick Burten]

Rick, we have been through this junk already, but since you have become so fond of calling Revilinski liar and demanding proof (and for the record, his comments are utterly irrelevant to me, since they are not supported by fact, and many of them are of such a nature that such support would be impossible), would you be so kind as to post on this thread in reply the actual, word for word, false statements, inaccuracies and what you refer to as a hatchet job done to the AFA by the Journal?


No problem Patrick. As soon as I have re-read the articles and as I have the time and inclination to do so, I will do as you ask.

You have not hesitated to crusade against the admittedly unfair accusations made against the AFA, but you have engaged in identical attacks on "the schools," (whoever they are,) and now you have opened fire on Mr. Lessiter's coverage of the situation.

As for the schools, I stated my opinion(as was asked for) regarding how I felt about the school I attended. Others did the same. If questioning the level of experience one should have prior to graduation and then offering one's services to the public constitutes an attack on the schools, then I'll plead guilty.

As for my opining on the articles in the AFJ, well, like I said, its my opinion, and now that you have requested it, I will find the substantive parts.

>Fair enough, if you have the proof in hand, but with your readiness to demand proof of others, you ought to have presented your own along with the accusation. Can we be consistent for just one time? Please?

Nothing inconsistent about it. I made some comments. You are the first to ask for substantiation. I'll work to provide it.

>And one last time, to both you and Revilinski; must you really clutter this discussion with such absolute rot just so you can have the last word?

Sure, why not? No one is forcing you to read either one of us, are they?

> I suppose there exists in the darker side of human nature some level of enjoyment of such inane exchanges as the two of you have been engaged in,

I said, long ago, that this does indeed suit my rather perverse nature.

>but speaking only for myself, the novelty wore off long ago and has been repaced with unalloyed contempt.

Don't let your 'unalloyed contempt' stand in the way of your choosing to not read my words.

>I am not subject to the delusion that either of you cares what I think, but I am sure that no one reading your posts will be left with any impression of professionalism, or even observable maturity beyond a preschooler's level.

Actually Patrick, on certain/several subjects, your thoughts/opinions do matter to me. This just happens to be one of those where they don't. :(
As for my professionalism or maturity, c'est la vie, c'est la guerre.

>Rick, you at least are capable of better, I would hope Mr. Revilinski is likewise. Do either of you really feel that you gain anything by discoursing on such a level?

Like I said, it suits my admittedly perverse nature(not to mention the entertainment value). I like keeping in touch with the "dark side". I would have loved to have been able to play Darth Vader(though I would have chosen a different end for me).

As W. Shakespeare wrote in "As You Like It", 'Jaques' Soliloquy'
"All the world is a stage, and all the men and women merely players. They have their exits and their entrances, and one man in his time plays many parts. His acts being seven ages........"

[Rick Burten]

Ok Rick once again you have given us yadda yadda yadda blah blah blah

Simple yes or No and you cant do it,

Read for content in context.

And ask a simple question that can be answered with only a Yes or No.

Here's a simple question for you to answer Yes or No.

"Do you still beat the first horse you work on every day?"

Just answer the question, Yes or No.

[Ronald E. Kramedjian]

Phil,

>>Who was the first, was it me?<<

He participates on this forum so I let him cop to it if he chooses.

>>You are insureing that someone actully is makeing factual statements, where and how did you get all the facts?<<
I actually did my homework and refused to let the words surrounding the facts to become facts themselves. Facts are easy to find, once you stop listening to other people’s opinions.

>>How long did you apprentice for and what did you learn? Why didnt you go to school? Most farriers go to school and then apprentice, do you see a problem with that? If you do, then please explain. Where did you get the facts that the schools are driveing the associations agenda? Why do you consider your remarks to be honest and others to be lies?<<

Three and a half years, during which I learned everything that the guy teaching me thought I should learn. I didn’t go to school a school because by the time I started even thinking about making this my profession I was already well beyond what most of the schools could teach me. No I do not see a problem with the concept, but that is not what I am seeing experientially. It is simple, I spent many hours on the phone with one of the school owners discussing their issues, I actual was able to read and comprehend what has been written on the issue, I know from personal knowledge that the schools made repealing the resolutions their number one agenda item because they did not want to be put in a position to respond to a simple information request. A request that was for nothing more than what they would have provided an potential student by the way. That item on their agenda has now occurred. Simple, because I try to take great care to present information as accurately as I can and when I state something that is my opinion I am clear to note it as my opinion not as an opinion masquerading as a fact. BTW, lie is your word so far I do not recall using the word lie. As I have said several times of late, words can be twisted to have many meanings, facts tell but one truth. The challenge is to focus your mind on the facts and ignore the words conjured up trying to explain them.

>>Impressive, what do you know about horses and horseshoeing? How long have you been shoeing? I am sure John Bloomback can teach you a few things, do you have any clue who he is?<<

Not enough, but I seem to know enough that Vet’s refer clients to me for the****utic and corrective shoeing. I’ve been shoeing for almost 5 years now. I suspect that he like most of the farriers that I have met he would have many things to teach me, but at this point who he is and what he might be able to teach me are irrelevant to me beyond the fact that I have decided that he is not the kind of person that I could possibly vote for given the way that he expresses himself in public. To much opinion and not enough fact for my tastes.

>>If you can make 2,000.00/day consulting why did you give that up. Do you make that much or more as a farrier?<<

Phil, money is not all it is cracked up to be. I choose, after a lot of thought and conversation with my wife, to stop dealing with the kind of rectums that I had to deal with on a daily basis. Now I only deal with rectums when I choose to and then only when absolutely necessary. No I do not make that much a day yet. But I do know a couple of farriers that are not all that far off of that number so I have hope. In the meantime I am happy with my practice.

>>How can a school do anything for you? You chose not to go!!!!<<

I’ll point you back to John’s original post. It sure looked to me like he was accusing me of biting the hand that helped me learn to feed myself and I was pointing out that since I did not go to a school I was not therefore I had nothing to be ashamed of.

>>I am absolutely positive he can say the same.<<

I am happy for you, but at this point I would have to ask myself if his answer was accurate?

>>I personaly do not see where he was slanderous, you are over reacting. He simply asked a question and probably was in jest. If you can't stand the heat then don't get near the forge and anvil.<<

I wouldn’t imagine you would. Perhaps I am in fact overreacting to his question. If I am overreacting John as an adult with free will and the obvious ability to type is free to tell me that I am overreacting on his own by simply stating that he did not mean his statement to be a serious accusation and that he is sorry for his misstatement. I’ll accept that as an honest mistake and let it drop.

>>I find you to be very hostile and defensive<<

I am so sorry that you experence me that way :eek: , I get that from some people.

Good night.

Ron

[tbloomer]

deletia . . . I was out shoeing today right alongside a very good friend of mine who is an AFA CJF funniest thing happened we each got paid the same amount for the horses we shod.

In the not so distant future the initials CJF after someones name will be much more desireable to the horse owning public. The new direction the AFA is taking with marketing to horse owners is going to create a market demand for AFA certified farriers. Once this happens the snowball effect will kick in and the AFA will become the defacto authority on farrier education.

The BoD has a lot of fresh young faces. There is a lot of energy and enthusiasm towards the horse owner educational (marketing) initiative. I see a future where the AFA will be as well recognized by horse owners as Microsoft is recognized by computer owners. And, yes you don't need Microsoft products to use a PC. You have the freedom to choose whatever software you wish.

I see a whole new opportunity for non AFA farriers. They can market themselves as "AFA compatible farriers" just like software companies market their products as Microsoft Compatible . . . at a lower price of course.

Tom Bloomer, CF

[tbloomer]

Thanks and a tip of the hat for taking the time to attend and post the happenings to this forum. I greatly appreciate your effort and reportage.

Well knock me over with a feather! Starting my day with the one and only Mr. Tom Stovall, CJF tipping his hat to me . . . today is going to be an excellent day.

My first horse of the day has a pretty severe case of podotrochleosis. I was going to torch weld some bar stock across the heels on a keg shoe and rocker the toe, but instead I think I'll celebrate by hand forging the shoes as practice for my Journeyman exam.

Cheers,
Tom Bloomer, CF

[tbloomer]

WHAT MAKES THE AFA THINK THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO TRY TO ENFORCE REGULATIONS THAT WOULD AFFECT FARRIERS WHO ARE NOT INVOLVED IN THE AFA?

The AFA Board of Directors makes AFA policy. Although certain individuals on the Executive Committee have pushed their personal licensing agenda, they were not doing this with the approval of the BoD. It is unfortunate that the EC took liberties with the AFA publications and spoke as though they were representing the membership.

The FACTS are now on record. The AFA membership has spoken and the policy is clear. Thy dead horse stinketh!

Tom Bloomer, CF

[Phil Armitage]

Good morning Ron, first off, thank you for takeing the time to share your opionions. I find your point of view interesting and very different from the norm. The beauty of this trade is all the different ways we have learned it and how differently we see things. My responsis are in Red.

Deletia....


>>You are insureing that someone actully is makeing factual statements, where and how did you get all the facts?<<
I actually did my homework and refused to let the words surrounding the facts to become facts themselves. Facts are easy to find, once you stop listening to other people’s opinions.

I have also done alot of homework and seen plenty of facts and opinions on this subject. I have also talked personaly with many very educated personalitys on this subject. Opinions may not be factual and alot of what we read from the AFA Leaders are opinions based on emotion and passion for the trade. There are many non AFA Farriers who disagree with the AFA and there methods who use alternative shoeing methods and/or newer information and principles who have opinions and are very passionate about horses and hoof care. I have also met and read about barefoot hoofcare providers that are very passionate about hoofcare.

>>How long did you apprentice for and what did you learn? Why didnt you go to school? Most farriers go to school and then apprentice, do you see a problem with that? If you do, then please explain. Where did you get the facts that the schools are driveing the associations agenda? Why do you consider your remarks to be honest and others to be lies?<<

Three and a half years, during which I learned everything that the guy teaching me thought I should learn. I didn’t go to school a school because by the time I started even thinking about making this my profession I was already well beyond what most of the schools could teach me.

Ron, sounds like you are loyal and dedicated and learned alot from one individual, however I encourage you to talk to and learn from many others, there are many opinions about hoofcare. Keep an open mind.

>>Impressive, what do you know about horses and horseshoeing? How long have you been shoeing? I am sure John Bloomback can teach you a few things, do you have any clue who he is?<<

Not enough, but I seem to know enough that Vet’s refer clients to me for the****utic and corrective shoeing. I’ve been shoeing for almost 5 years now.

Don't let this go to your head, I have alot of respect for a good horse vet and many good horse vets are also as respectfull to a good farrier. Don't hold alot of stock in what Vets consider good shoeing. Some Vets like a farrier that will fill a perscription and cooperate with them, however that does not mean the job was done right. Do your homework and check out how much training a Vet has on hoof care, trimming and shoeing. Even if they had any lengthy study in the class room most have very little hands on and time invested to know much of anything about trimming and shoeing. Farriers and Vets are two seperate professions and diserve respect, both professions have compitent and incompitence. I have run across my share of incompetent Vets and farriers that think they know everything. I can't tell you the number of times (alot) I have been asked by horse owners for referals as to who I think is a good Vet. A farrier can refer buisness to Vets and I think that is the norm not the other way around. It is my experience that Farriers in this country have done more to build Farrier/Vet relations for the sake of horses and horse owners than the other way around. I personaly know many good farriers who are not AFA members who strive for a professional relationship and good communications with Vets and horse owners and put untireing peristant effort makeing phone calls, returning phone calls, trips to the Vets office to see X-Rays and consult with Vets at no additional charge to the horse owner. I do it, because I understand how much more a Vet is involved in emergencys at any time of the day and night, so I do what I can to stay on top of hoof problems that involve vets. I have on many occasion saved clients for Vets by explaining this very thing and the horse owner gains a better understanding and realises they will be taken care of.

Ron

[Phil Armitage]

The AFA Board of Directors makes AFA policy. Although certain individuals on the Executive Committee have pushed their personal licensing agenda, they were not doing this with the approval of the BoD. It is unfortunate that the EC took liberties with the AFA publications and spoke as though they were representing the membership.

The FACTS are now on record. The AFA membership has spoken and the policy is clear. Thy dead horse stinketh!

Tom Bloomer, CF

Your just bubbleing with pride, thanks for going and shareing your experience. Sounds encourageing.

[R.Revilinski]

Rick simple yes or no .........


Bloomer,the area's I work in you could have PHD behind your name and it wouldnt matter and I dont see that changing anytime this century, most of my customers have never even heard of the AFA much less have any clue what a CJF is.

[Rick Burten]

The AFA Board of Directors makes AFA policy.

Tom Bloomer, CF

Speaking of the Board of Directors, according to information from the AFA office posted on the website, there are a number of farriers who are AFA members but not members of a chapter. It would seem that these individuals are disinfranchised because they do not have a "voice" on the BOD.

Perhaps the AFA should identify all these individuals and have them vote for a representative for that group( sort of a 'non-chapter member' chapter rep).

At the same time, each of those individuals should be given the name and location of the chapter nearest to them and encouraged to join and the chapter should be given the names of those individuals and encouraged to contact them to invite them to join that chapter.

Perhaps I just need to get one good night's sleep :o

[Rick Burten]

most of my customers have never even heard of the AFA much less have any clue what a CJF is.

It is yet to be established whether you:

1. are a farrier
and
2. have any customers
and
3. actually work at all

You'll pardon the skeptics among us who seem to doubt your word alone.

[R.Revilinski]

again Rick Yes or No simple question...........

[Rick Burten]

again Rick Yes or No simple question...........

I'll answer your 'simple' question when you answer mine:

"What was your AFA member number?"

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

R.Revilinski in gray

again Rick Yes or No simple question

Demanding a single answer to a complex question with more than one possible answer is a logical fallacy called argumentum plurimum interrogationum, aka, "the loaded question" fallacy. (e.g., You're late for an appointment because you were involved in an accident. On arrival, your client asks, "Did you get lost?")

According to the Good Sisters who beat this stuff into me more'n 50 years ago, this, and other, logical fallacies are much favored by propagandists who are attempting to push an agenda without benefit of either logic or clergy. :)

[Rick Burten]

Rick,....... would you be so kind as to post on this thread in reply the actual, word for word, false statements, inaccuracies and what you refer to as a hatchet job done to the AFA by the Journal?



As promised:

1. p16; "The original Farrier Education/registration Task Force was formed secretly in mid-2004 by the Executive Committee:

Demonstrably false, inaccurate and misleading. The Task Force was formed by the President and the president alone, under powers granted to him by the Bylaws.

2. p.16; "The creation of the Farrier School Survey Task Force by the AFA's Ececutive Committee...."

Demonstrably, false, inaccurate and misleading.

3. p17; "The task force then worked secretly with the Execrutive Committee to develop a nin-point plan for standardizing farrier schooling, competency testing and registration.."

Demonstrably, andas proven in the official record/minutes of the AFA EC meetings,false, inaccurate and misleading.

4. p.20; " Newly revealed do***ents show that a plan for establishing standardss for farrier education, testing and registration was largely developed by members of the Executive Committee of the American Farriers Association by late April 2004"

demonstrably incorrect, false and misleading.

5. p.20; "That plan ws then given to a task force appointed months later, supposedly to study the issues."

False. And, the use of the term "supposedly" implies that something else occurred or that something did not occur. The reporter offers no facts to back up his supposition. Bad reporting, especially because it leads the reader, by innuendo, to form a conclusion when the premise has not been accurately stated.

6. p.20; "The creation of the task force in July 2004 was itself kept from the organization's Board of Directors in possible violation of AFA bylaws.

Misleading and inaccurate and sloppy investigative journalism. Why? Because the Bylaws of the AFA are public record and had the reporter taken even a moment of his time to peruse them, he would have discovered that everything was done legally and in perfect accord with the Bylaws.

7. p.20; "....but the Executive committee also was involved in creating the task force, according to the July 2005 issue of the AFA's 'No Foot, No Horse' newsletter...."

Absolutely false, no such thing ever occurred, nor was it so reported in the newsletter. Beyond that, that statement once again shows a lack of good investigatory ability, the drawing of erroneous conclusions, and a disregard for accurate reporting of the facts.

8. p.20; "The Executive Committee announced at the board's February 2005 meeting that the task force had been appointed in mid-2004....."

Absolutely false. the President, in his official capacity as President, made that announcement. Now, while it is true that the President is a member of the EC, that alone does not mean that the EC acting as a 'whole' made or took any action. The President acted singly as the senior elected officer of the AFA, under powers granted to him by the Bylaws of the AFA.

9. p.20; "....Quinsey is the AFA's Executive Director and serves on the Executive Committee...."

While basically correct, the author failed to qualify this statement when he did not also note that the ED is only an ex-officio member of the EC(as is the immediate past president of the AFA, if he/she is still living) and has NO VOTE on any action taken by the EC.

10. p.21; "A third do***ent written by Taylor, dated July 21, 2004, notes that the intitial concept for the plan was completed between March and April 2004 and that the Executive Committee had reviewed, discussed and approved the plan during June and July 2004"

No approval was asked for, none was given.

11. p.21; "The letter says the executive committee agreed in July 2004 to create a position for a director of education to manage the education and registration program....."

Totally inaccurate and false. The EC suggested/recommended that the ED look into creating a position to be called Director of Education. There was NO mandate nor could there be. It is solely the responsibility/authority of the ED
when it comes to decisions regarding the staffing of the office. Further, the Dir. of Education's primary responsibilities are to revolve around the certification program, and other farrier and owner education programs(I called the office and asked. A concept that seems to have eluded many, including the author of the article in question).

Individually and in aggregate, these items show many things, but what they do not show is good, unbiased reporting. It took me only a telephone call to get the information. The same avenue was open to the reporter.

As I originally said, the articles started off fairly well, but then degenerated in parts, into a slanted, inaccurate reporting of non-truths and half-truths.

There is no evidence that the reporter made any attempt to contact any one who holds an official capacity within the AFA(the Executive Director as Chief Operating Officer of the AFA comes to mind) to verify the facts before they were published. The various headlines of the articles look like they were torn from the front pages of "The National Inquirer".

Apparently, the viewpoint of a farrier who opposes the regulation of farriers(but none the less has less than lauditory words for the farrier school education program and the graduates it produces) was solicited and printed, but apparently, no counter viewpoint was solicited and given the same opportunity.

For the record, in the past, I have always respected the journalistic integrity of the AFJ and supported the Journal's position when that independence and integrity was called into question by the AFA's desire to have editorial control over the contents of the Journal. In this instance however, the Journal has sadly disappointed me.

[R.Revilinski]

simple question Rick, just a simple answer..........yes or no ?

[Rick Burten]

simple question Rick, just a simple answer..........yes or no ?
Simple question Dickie the liar, just three or four numbers. Whats the problem?

[R.Revilinski]

Well Rick it appears you have once again stooped to your favorite tactics, of bullying, blustering and intimidation, they do not work my friend, find a new method.

Your inability to answer a simple question proves that you sir (and I use the term loosely) are a spineless coward who would not or could not stand up for what you belive in unless you have the protection of the herd.

You seem to fancy yourself the woodward and bernstien of the farrier trade and well, as much as it pains me to say I wish you all the best in your endeavors, but as it stands the AFA leadership has been soundly thrashed in this round I am sure you and your cronies will disagree but that is what makes life fun, I am sure that somwhere walt and his corporate moonies will try again and they will be defeated again, so with that I say my job here is done, I see no value in discussing a dead subject any further and see no reason to continue wasting my time or the time of others who surely have more important things to do.

So Rick I just want you to know that God takes care of those with infirm minds and you Rick are definetly protected by God.

May your horses all stand well, may your hammer strike true and all your nails drive straight, God bless and Good Shoeing

Richard Revilinski

[Patrick Kocher]

Rick,

Regarding your first post:
Thank you for an honest reply! From this day forward I shall remain silent on the subject of the F-rated "Burten - Revilinski Show."

One final thought: playing Darth Vader may be a cool concept, but the final outcome of a given course of action is generally open to manipulation only by changes of behavior, not the expression of personal preferences.

On your second post:
Thank you again. I sincerely appreciate your readiness to provide the do***entation I requested. A few of the points you mention I know enough to agree with you, on others I will remain silent, as I have not had the opportunity to verify them.

Since the Journal did, indeed, misreport certain facts relating to the establishment of the task force, may I have your permission to forward your post to Mr. Tearney via email to allow him the opportunity to make the requisite corrections?

Respectfully,
Patrick

[Rick Burten]

Rick,

One final thought: playing Darth Vader may be a cool concept, but the final outcome of a given course of action is generally open to manipulation only by changes of behavior, not the expression of personal preferences.

Perhaps in real life, but we're talking the movies here :)

On your second post:
Thank you again. I sincerely appreciate your readiness to provide the do***entation I requested. A few of the points you mention I know enough to agree with you, on others I will remain silent, as I have not had the opportunity to verify them.

Since the Journal did, indeed, misreport certain facts relating to the establishment of the task force, may I have your permission to forward your post to Mr. Tearney via email to allow him the opportunity to make the requisite corrections?

Though you don't need my permission, (this afterall is a public forum and if you say it, its fair game), thank you for asking, and by all means, do so.

It would also seem that we are at last rid of the Revilinski infestation so you will not have to suffer that foolishness any further.

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=R.Revilinski]>Well Rick it appears you have once again stooped to your favorite tactics, of bullying, blustering and intimidation, they do not work my friend, find a new method.

If asking you to provide your AFA member number is bullying, blustering and intimidation, then I plead guilty as charged.

>Your inability to answer a simple question proves that you sir (and I use the term loosely) are a spineless coward who would not or could not stand up for what you belive in unless you have the protection of the herd.

Seems to me that I am the only one of us who has provided an answer to even your less than simple question. Its not my spine that is missing, nor am I standing in a putrid puddle of yellow p*iss and cowardly behavior.

>You seem to fancy yourself the woodward and bernstien of the farrier trade and well, as much as it pains me to say I wish you all the best in your endeavors, but as it stands the AFA leadership has been soundly thrashed in this round I am sure you and your cronies will disagree but that is what makes life fun, I am sure that somwhere walt and his corporate moonies will try again and they will be defeated again, so with that I say my job here is done, I see no value in discussing a dead subject any further and see no reason to continue wasting my time or the time of others who surely have more important things to do.

Since you never once contributed anything either meaningful or constructive to the discussion, what ever job you fancied yourself as undertaking , was, like you, an abismal failure. You've left more pieces of your worthless hide scattered about these forums than you take with you. And, like all the other trash, they will be tossed out and left to further decay in the light of day.

The well wishes of the likes of you are as befouled as that which is pumped from a campgrounds outhouse. Fortunately, a good, hot shower removes both the stench and any particulate matter.

>So Rick I just want you to know that God takes care of those with infirm minds and you Rick are definetly protected by God.

ROTFLMAO!
So like you to assume the presence of something that cannot be proven. As I do not acknowledge any such diety, your invoking of that presence for me is irrelevant and meaningless, my mental well being not withstanding.

>May your horses all stand well, may your hammer strike true and all your nails drive straight, God bless and Good Shoeing

Have you gone and joined the Fluff Bunny Corps, Sweetness and Light Brigade, Bat Guano Regiment, Doofus Company, ***** For Brains Platoon, behind my back? You devil , you.

Since I have no such sentiments for liars, fools, cowards, and the like, I am unable to offer to you any similar sentiments. Rather, Good Bye and Good Riddance.

>Richard Revilinski

So in parting, you choose to further your lie by using a first name which cannot be shown to be properly associated with the surname you have chosen. At least you are consistent. A liar when you came here, a liar as you leave. A cur, headed out of town, much bedraggled and with its tail between its legs, probably trying, with its tail, to protect what it just doesn't have--cojones.

[Patrick Kocher]

Rick,

Thank you. I will forward your post with a brief background tonight.

Patrick

[tbloomer]

I copied this post from the AFJ forum so that Mr. Revilinski can have his questions answered in both places.

Quote Revilinski> "I am also tired of hearing AFA members trying to justify the actions of the EC, I have asked several members to put the shoe on the other foot and tell me how they would feel if they were being forced to do something against their will by a small special interest group.

Not one has ever given a direct answer its really quite pathetic when you think about it."

Here is your direct answer. It was the members of the AFA and the Board of Directors who shut down the AFA executive comittee's licensing proposal. Some of us went to the open meeting and the board meeting in Omaha. We went there to oppose the "special interest group" that caused the distrust and discord in our association. We got it done.

Those of us who actually attended the meeting came away satisfied that the BoD was back in control of the AFA and that they had taken apropriate measures to make certain that the EC stays on track with the AFA policies rather than attempting to make policy without board approval.

You have gotten your direct answer. AND since I was at the meetings I also know that you were conspicuously ABSENT. I ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION. I TOOK ACTION. I WENT AND STOOD FACE TO FACE AND TOE TO TOE. WHERE WERE YOU Richard Revilinski?

If you are so all fired up about this issue why didn't you go to the meeting in Omaha? You WERE INVITED. You had the opportunity to have your voice heard. Could it be that you are really just a lyeing coward? YOU DIDN'T PUT UP AND YOU WONT SHUT UP! Hide behind the safety of your monitor and keyboard.

There were several non AFA members at the meeting. I know because they sat beside me in the meeting and bought me some brews afterword at the bar where we celebrated our victory. The way I see it, you owe me a beer! I bought the airline tickets, payed for the hotel, rented a car, went to the meeting and stood up for YOU and every other farrier who wants to remain free from govrenment control.

Do you think that the left-wing socialistic pro-union, pro-regulation ACLU is going to represent your interests? Your ******ity is astounding. If there is any organization on the planet that would stand in favor of govrenment regulation and enforced medioracracy it would be the ACLU. This is the action that you are taking? You have bacome your own worst enemy.

The AFA members have put this issue to rest. You are not a member of the AFA. You stand alone, unqualified, unrecognized, uninteresting and unwilling to confront your adversary face to face when invited to do so in a public forum. You are a coward of biblical perportion.

Your MO has been to complain rather than take action. Now you attempt to take action through the ACLU. If the govrenment ever does impliment farrier regulation, it will be the ACLU that will step in to force lower standards. The ACLU will be there to make certain that the least competant, least educated, and least qualified pretenders are allowed to enter and practice the trade.

In retrospect, maybe you are looking out for your own interests after all. The ACLU will make sure that you will not have to pass any real test of skill - they will call it something catchy like affirmative action for intellectually disadvantaged farriers.

Some people have excuses, some have results. Which do you have?

The problem I went to Omaha to address was licensing and regulation. It seems to me that your problem is not licensing and regulation, but the AFA itself. I say that because in spite of the fact that the AFA members have squashed the issue - which is exactly what I thought you wanted them to do - you continue to complain about the AFA and its members.

If the AFA or the ACLU or any other organization ever makes a move toward farrier regulation in the future, you have my word that I will work to shut that down, just like I worked on it this time.

Apperantly the only thing we can count on you to do is complain and make ****** illogical decisions . . . this LOGIC from someone who used to work in IT. AND just so you know, I also worked in IT for 15 years as a high paid consultant, project manager, and problem solver. I always get results and never make excuses. I was the guy that they brought in to put the failing projects back on track and bring them in on-time and under budget. I was the guy that saved the VPs and IT Directors buts.

It's people like me that make it OK for there to be people like you.

Your most apropriate response at this time would be to thank me and the other people that went to Omaha and stood up for you and for the independence of our trade. However something tells me that you will not be so gracious. Here's your chance to prove my instincts wrong.

Tom Bloomer, CF

[R.Revilinski]

Bloomer I didnt go to the meeting because I am not a member of the AFA and I thanked many of my friends in the AFA that went to the meeting and shut the EC down, I am glad you went and I am glad you voiced your opinion, but this will come up again and again and if you dont belive it you will be suffering in the end, as for the membership they should have nevr let it happen in the first place,

As for the ACLU or any other group that will even consider looking into the situation and keeping it fresh in peoples mind I will continue to contact those groups and I will continue to do every thing I can to motivate others to keep this fresh in peoples minds because you know as well as I do we will have to go through this again in a few years it needs to be put to rest once and for all.

By the way did you non members get a chance to speak in Omaha?

And as for buying you a beer frankly Bloomer I think you are probally a pretty cool guy I would love to be able to sit down and toss back a few with you, so I am not going to argue its not worth it.

[R.Revilinski]

Bloomer,
Answer this hypothetical question for me

If the BWFA decided to push licensing and registration and was pushing to be the administering body that would work with the government to oversee testing and continueing education through the BWFA, would you as a non member and independent farrier fight them?

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

R.Revilinski in gray

Bloomer,

Answer this hypothetical question for me

If the BWFA decided to push licensing and registration and was pushing to be the administering body that would work with the government to oversee testing and continueing education through the BWFA, would you as a non member and independent farrier fight them?

I'm not Mr. Bloomer, but you won't mind if I point out the illogic inherent to any question that attempts to compare apples to oranges. The BWFA has all the credibility of a sleazebag used car salesman on the wrong side of the tracks, the AFA's credibility has never been questioned; the BWFA apparently exits to enrich Ralph and his cronies, the AFA is a 501 (c)(3) not-for-profit; the BWFA's testing program is a joke, the AFA's is without peer, the BWFA is recognized within the industry as being below the salt; the AFA is recognized worldwide as representative of American farriery, etc.

Not to worry: Even a cursory examination of the BWFA's history by the dullest bureaucrat would reveal the utter folly of allowing the BWFA to have any form, sort, shape, or fashion of leadership position within the industry.

[R.Revilinski]

Ok Tom,

I am going to try to explain this in a manner you will understand, first the question is a hypothetical one (please see definition below)

Main Entry: hy·po·thet·i·cal
Pronunciation: "hI-p&-'the-ti-k&l
Function: adjective
: being or involving a hypothesis : CONJECTURAL <hypothetical arguments> <a hypothetical situation>
- hy·po·thet·i·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb)

I am not trying to argue whether the BWFA, AFA or Guild are worthy orginizations there testing procedures, credentials or tax exempt status have no bearing on the question, hence the term hy-po-thet-i-cal (please see the definition above)

I could have easily have used Nazi's, Communists, Christians, Jews, Muslims, The FFA, The Teamsters, The AFL or the NFL I chose the BWFA because I knew it would draw a response to the question from AFA members.

I will now attempt to reword the question so it is easier to understand:

If the (Insert name of orginization other than AFA here) decided to push licensing and registration and was pushing to be the administering body that would work with the government to oversee testing and continueing education through the (Insert name of orginization other than AFA here) would you as a non member and independent farrier fight them?

Please circle one Yes NO

Like I tried to get through to Rick its a simple yes or no question, its even easier to understand than the AFA member survey.

[Patrick Kocher]

To Whom It May Concern,

I just received a detailed, 7-page, point by point rebuttal of Mr. Burten's claims regarding inaccurate reporting by the AFJ. (This from the editorial staff of the AFJ.) I am in the process of verifying the information contained in their reply, by examining the do***ents cited in their research. So far it appears that Rick is in error, and that the AFJ did indeed have do***entation provided to them by the AFA for each of the points in question.

I would like to post their response on this forum, but they have requested otherwise and I will honor that request. However, I will say that they are cleared, in my view, of the charge of misreporting or falsification, whether intentional or not. They did indicate to me that they would be happy to provide this information to any AFJ reader who would request it.

Respectfully,
Patrick G. Kocher

[Patrick Kocher]

One other thing:

Had I not been firmly convinced long before now that more than one cranium involved in this discussion was operating at near zero capacity while the attached transmission devices were running away out of control, I would have been utterly at a loss to explain the *****ic idea of involving the Atheist/Communist Lawyer's Union in this issue. Please!

I did enjoy Mr. Bloomer's heartfelt response to the suggestion. Thanks, Tom!

Respectfully (with tongue firmly in cheek),
Patrick

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

R.Revilinski in gray, deletia in places

Ok Tom,

I am going to try to explain this in a manner you will understand, first the question is a hypothetical one...

So noted. To save you further embarrassment, I've been kind enough to point out the inherent illogic of your hypothesis, lest you become the butt of more derisive laughter amongst the lookers on.

I am not trying to argue whether the BWFA, AFA or Guild are worthy orginizations there testing procedures, credentials or tax exempt status have no bearing on the question, hence the term hy-po-thet-i-cal...

In reality, your inclusion of the BWFA in your hypothesis rendered that worthy organization fair game for a comparison with the AFA - hypothetically speaking. Is English your first language?

I will now attempt to reword the question so it is easier to understand:

If the (Insert name of orginization other than AFA here) decided to push licensing and registration and was pushing to be the administering body that would work with the government to oversee testing and continuing education through the (Insert name of orginization other than AFA here) would you as a non member and independent farrier fight them?

Please circle one Yes NO

I fear you've been an indifferent student of logical discourse as you keep making the same silly mistakes over and over. As you learned in a previous lesson, demanding a simple answer to a complex question is a logical fallacy. In this case, if some avaricious state legislature had a brainfart and decided to tax services, a thing that might require the registration, testing, and licensing of farriers, then I can't think of any organization better suited to the task of promulgating and administering the necessary rules and regulations than the AFA. I'm not a proponent of licensing, but I am damn sure in favor of making contingency plans and having them ready and waiting to be put into place seamlessly so that if/when worst comes to worst, we farriers will have a say in how our business is conducted instead of having some know-nothing bureaucrat make the rules.

I'm not a big fan of bureaucrats and detest that particular form of vermin worse'n a preacher hates sin. To refresh your memory, I've had some small experience with political appointees and was once asked by a member of the Texas Racing Commission, "What's a farrier?" Can you imagine a gaggle of such stalwarts in charge of all farriery within a state, instead of just a minuscule number of platers?

Oops! Did I just hear a neuron fire across a synapse?

Like I tried to get through to Rick its a simple yes or no question, its even easier to understand than the AFA member survey.

You'll have less difficulty eliciting a response if you'll make a conscious effort to formulate logical questions instead of logical fallacies. While doubtless an effective and much favored tactic on junior high playgrounds, attempting to generate an answer favorable to your agenda by the use of logical fallacies will seldom be effective with grown ups.

[R.Revilinski]

So lets see if I read this correctly you would rather have the walt manifesto go forward than to make a stand for what you belive in?
So hypothetically if walt joined the(insert name of orginization here) it would be ok to let the (insert name of orginization here) take over a free trade and assist in putting controls on farriers?

Damn I am glad I never ended up in a foxhole with you guys hell it would have been a twenty minute debate on whether to pull the trigger or not.

Patrick the ACLU is not one of my favorite groups however as I have stated before this needs to be put too rest once and for all or the AFA will try it again and they get sneakier each time you should have figured that out just from your recent interaction with rick and the AFJ.

If the ACLU should decide to look into things, more power to them and the more people talking about this the better remember those who do not know history are doomed to repeat history, I will do everything I can to stop a repeat of the bull**** the AFA has tried to pull this time.

[Rick Burten]

To Whom It May Concern,

I would like to post their response on this forum, but they have requested otherwise and I will honor that request. However, I will say that they are cleared, in my view, of the charge of misreporting or falsification, whether intentional or not. They did indicate to me that they would be happy to provide this information to any AFJ reader who would request it.

Respectfully,
Patrick G. Kocher

Good job Patrick!

Since they are willing to provide the information to any AFJ reader who requests it, I am at a loss to understand why they would ask you not to post the information.

Regardless, when/if I have the time/inclination, I'll ask them for it , or, perhaps you'd just send it to me?

Rick

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

R.Revilinski in gray, my old stuff in brown, deletia

I'm not a proponent of licensing, but I am damn sure in favor of making contingency plans and having them ready and waiting to be put into place seamlessly so that if/when worst comes to worst, we farriers will have a say in how our business is conducted instead of having some know-nothing bureaucrat make the rules.

So lets see if I read this correctly you would rather
have the walt manifesto go forward than to make a stand for what you
belive in?

Since cash-strapped legislatures are always looking for more money, it follows inexorably that taxation of services and the subsequent licensing of services is both probable and possible at some time in the future. I believe farriers would be best served by formulating a contingency plan and having it ready to plug in when/if licensing becomes reality instead of nattering on mindlessly about the evils of licensing, then being forced to accept the plan of some political appointee who can't even spell farrier.

So hypothetically if walt joined the(insert name of orginization here) it would be ok to let the (insert name of orginization here) take over a free trade and assist in putting controls on farriers?

You appear to have a fixation with Walt Taylor. Get over it. Walt has been a
proponent of licensing for the last 25 years or so, but Walt cannot exert any influence over the AFA's membership, or chapter membership, beyond espousing a particular viewpoint.

Damn I am glad I never ended up in a foxhole with you
guys hell it would have been a twenty minute debate on whether to pull
the trigger or not.

Since no enemy is in sight, why'n hell would anyone be wasting ammunition?

Patrick the ACLU is not one of my favorite groups however
as I have stated before this needs to be put too rest once and for all or the AFA will try it again and they get sneakier each time you should have figured that out just from your recent interaction with rick and the AFJ.

Hot damn, I love a conspiracy, especially one based on mindless conjecture,
uneducated supposition, and plain 'ol damnfoolishness.

If the ACLU should decide to look into things, more power to them and the more people talking about this the better remember those who do not know history are doomed to repeat history, I will do everything I can to stop a repeat of the bull**** the AFA has tried to pull this time.

Once again, logic fails you: Before you can base an argument on a particular
premise, the premise must be so, otherwise, the argument collapses. It has
not been demonstrated the AFA has "tried to pull" anything; in fact, if the
folks who were at Omaha are to be believed - and I most assuredly believe
Tom Bloomer's reportage - it has been quite clearly demonstrated that the
AFA's board effectively quashed an attempt by a few individuals to advance a
particular agenda. Unfortunately for your cockamamie conspiracy theory, as
the Good Sisters usta say when somebody wasn't making a helluva lot of
sense, "Ergo, cadit quaestio".
(For those without the dubious benefit of Catholic
indoctrination/education, that's Latin for "Thus, the argument
collapses.")

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=R.Revilinski]>So lets see if I read this correctly you would rather have the walt manifesto go forward than to make a stand for what you belive in?
So hypothetically if walt joined the(insert name of orginization here) it would be ok to let the (insert name of orginization here) take over a free trade and assist in putting controls on farriers?

Hypothetically or not, there is nothing anyone can do to stop Walt or anyone else from pursuing his/their agenda. Whether the agenda becomes reality is a whole different equation.

>Damn I am glad I never ended up in a foxhole with you guys hell it would have been a twenty minute debate on whether to pull the trigger or not.

Considering your demonstrable level of cowardice, it is doubtful whether any one would share a foxhole with you, if in fact you were somehow conscripted into military service.

>Patrick the ACLU is not one of my favorite groups however as I have stated before this needs to be put too rest once and for all or the AFA will try it again and they get sneakier each time you should have figured that out just from your recent interaction with rick and the AFJ.

No group on earth, in Heaven or in Hell will ever be able to put the issue to rest once and for all. While it may not be the AFA raising the issue again, it could well be any number of other groups or for that matter, individuals. And if you think that the ACLU is going to be your champion, you'd better think again.

>If the ACLU should decide to look into things, more power to them and the more people talking about this the better remember those who do not know history are doomed to repeat history, I will do everything I can to stop a repeat of the bull**** the AFA has tried to pull this time.

Yeah right. Thus far, your effort has amounted to some irrational rantings on two forums, an alleged call to the ACLU, and amounts to a **** in a whirlwind.

Keep up you Quixotic adventure. It amuses us to watch you.

By the way, here's a few simple Yes or No questions for you

1. Was your AFA number below 500?
2. Was your AFA number between 500 and 1000?
3. Was your AFA number between 1000 and 1500?

Just a simple Yes or No to each question is all that is required.

[ray steele]

Patrick,

Would you mind forwarding those seven pages to me? Thanking you in advance

Ray Steele

To Whom It May Concern,

I just received a detailed, 7-page, point by point rebuttal of Mr. Burten's claims regarding inaccurate reporting by the AFJ. (This from the editorial staff of the AFJ.) I am in the process of verifying the information contained in their reply, by examining the do***ents cited in their research. So far it appears that Rick is in error, and that the AFJ did indeed have do***entation provided to them by the AFA for each of the points in question.

I would like to post their response on this forum, but they have requested otherwise and I will honor that request. However, I will say that they are cleared, in my view, of the charge of misreporting or falsification, whether intentional or not. They did indicate to me that they would be happy to provide this information to any AFJ reader who would request it.

Respectfully,
Patrick G. Kocher

[tbloomer]

Bloomer,
Answer this hypothetical question for me

If the BWFA decided to push licensing and registration and was pushing to be the administering body that would work with the government to oversee testing and continueing education through the BWFA, would you as a non member and independent farrier fight them?

I already answered this question in my previous post. Evidently you lack the ability to read, comprehend, and retain information long enough to respond to it. Perhaps this explains why you no longer work in IT. Logic is the foundation of Information Technology. Your posts here and in other forums proof positive that you are incapable of applying simple logic. I see overwhelming evidence that you are in the early stages of dementia or Alzheimer’s.

For me there is no pleasure in sparring with an intellectual cripple. Therefore, out of my respect for all those who suffer from the ravages of this affliction, I will no longer respond to your posts.

Tom Bloomer, CF

[Cyber Farrier]

Looks like this thread has wheezed its last gasp as well. Let's move on....

Baron