Imbalanced front feet - 6 mo. filly

[hfournier]

What do you think of this filly's hooves? She is 6 1/2 months old TB/Paint and has never been lame. As you can see she's very upright and her front feet sink to the inside.

How would you trim or otherwise correct her? Any suggestions? Ballet lessons?

Thanks very much.

Holly

[calshoer]

She appears to be developing some deep flexor tendon contraction (club foot),or she has been trimmed with too much heel. I would recommend getting local veterinary advice about her nutritional and exercise program to insure everything is properly balanced and she os not overfed.
I would also look closely and critically at the dam and sire, and if either one has a club foot get a vetrinarian involved as quickly as possible to intervene and get her on the right track.Trimming to reduce Deep flexor tendon pull, (rocker toes) and if that does not stop it, surgery as early as possible.
AS to the heels, do not wory about the toe out, that is NORMAL for growing foals.The straighten uo later in life as their chest widens.
To prevent hoof distortion, trim each heel equally to the live sole plane ,no more no less. Looking at the pictures this may mean rasping a tad more off the *inside* heels. (NOT the side where the foot points !)
Patty

[caballus]

Just a note ... foals that are kept stalled and fed up in hung buckets and hay nets or racks do not have the opportunity to stretch d-o-w-n and lengthen the tendons (or the neck, back, etc.) ... this will cause club feet.

also, I disagree with the taking down of the inside walls vs. the outside walls. If the hooves are pointing out then the outside (lateral) walls are higher than the medial (inside) walls. This is evident in the photo.

--Gwen

[hfournier]

Thanks for the responses. Very interesting. I will get veterinary guidance right away, but I also value the different ideas from this forum (and I haven't had the greatest success with vets recently).

I think the filly was allowed to go too long without a trim, and so perhaps the heels just grew too high as opposed to being trimmed that way. I asked my farrier every time he was out to check her and he kept telling me she was fine and didn't need anything, that it was okay for her to be that upright, etc.

At 4 1/2 months I became concerned and started working on her myself with a rasp to gradually lower the heel. This has brought the angles down a few degrees, but now the hooves are looking kind of "tilted" in the M-L view.

The filly has been turned out on a big pasture and huge paddock since birth. She's stalled overnight several nights a week with mom in a double indoor/outdoor so she can romp. I never worried much about the confinement because she spends most of the stall time snoozing.

She does grow like a weed, but it's almost entirely grass and mamma's milk. Maybe it's time to slow her down. Mama was rescued pregnant from slaughter - no club feet. Don't know about the sire.

[John Barney]

I have seen this on my own foals and ones I have trimmed. I feel you are seeing the growth stages. Foals are usually more upright and have less flex when they are young. I think this helps them keep up with the herd. As the grow the foot takes on it's shape. Your horse's hoof is smalller at the ground surface than it is at the coronary band. That is the difference in growth over the last few months. The lower inside is common, the legs and body may grow at different rates than the neck and they must angle more to reach down to eat. The sole plane is a good reference, I use a particular look to the laminae to know where to trim to. Be very careful in making a horse that young take on a certain shape or angle to the hoof. I don't know if you are are a breeder or have alot of expirence with young horses or not. This is just my observations. Wait until they are two years old and you trim every 2 to 3 weeks to keep up with the growth.

JB

[hfournier]

John,

Thanks for your observations. This is my first foal and therefore I'm obsessed. I've seen lots of foals but never paid much attention to their feet. My other horses have hoof issues, so I'm hoping to prevent problems in this one and trying to learn as much as I can about trimming and maintenance.

I am curious about what you meant when you said to wait until they're 2 years old?

Also, at what stage have you noticed the inside and outside walls starting to level out?

Holly

[John Barney]

What I meant by the two year old remark was the rate of growth, not that you should wait to trim. As they grow sometimes the hips will be taller than the shoulders or legs longer than the body in the proportions. At two it seems the growth equals out more and the feet grow more rapidly. Our two year old has grown a new hoof from the coronary band in 4-1/2 months. At 1 to 1-1/2 years the chest muscles develop more and the toe out and short inside you are talking about start reducing. Hope this makes sense.

JB

[kanderso]

[QUOTE=caballus]Just a note ... foals that are kept stalled and fed up in hung buckets and hay nets or racks do not have the opportunity to stretch d-o-w-n and lengthen the tendons (or the neck, back, etc.) ... this will cause club feet.

Is there any research that supports this idea?

The reason I ask is because foals tend to start developing club foot very early, when most of them are still on pasture with their dams. In fact, I brought my colt in from pasture because he was spending all his time with the right front back and the left front forward, which some believe is what causes a club foot to develop in the first place.

My own theory is that the tendon shortens, or at least doesn't lengthen as the colt grows, and then they adopt the one forward/one back stance to relieve the tendon, rather than the other way around.

OTOH, I recently had the surgery done on mine and he has all kinds of extension now, yet still puts the clubby one back when he eats off the ground.

Something else that makes me question the idea that leaving them on pasture could be a preventative measure, is that TB foals are almost always kept on pasture with their dams until they're weaned, and most are then grown on pasture, yet club foot is rampant in TB's.

Kris

[Dave Purves]

I'm with JB here, I don't see any "serious" problems developmental wise from the pics. Most foals are toed out, front and back, and for that matter most adult horses are slightly toed out in back. This horse is waaaaaayyyyyy to young to start correcting which in my opinion would be "over" correcting at this stage. The foot looks healthy, maybe have the farrier out every 4 weeks to keep what you have, but they all go through their knock kneed gangly stage, and you'll progressively watch those triangle feet turn into nice healthy "round" feet. Remember the road to hell was paved with good intentions. If you trust your farrier, then beleive him when he says it's fine, if not, get a second or third opinion.
jmo
Dave

[calshoer]

also, I disagree with the taking down of the inside walls vs. the outside walls. If the hooves are pointing out then the outside (lateral) walls are higher than the medial (inside) walls. This is evident in the photo.

Gwen, the inside heel is high. Rotational problems in growing foals is common and is NOT the same as a medial lateral imbalance where one whole side of the foot was trimmed too high.
Look at the pictures more closely.
Most toe out horses, especially foals ,have a "rotational" problem not a true medial lateral imbalance. It is made worse when the farrier removes the wrong side of the foot, trying to fix it. If you lower the outside of this foals feet more you will begin a process of sheared heels.
For the vast majority you do NOT trim the side that points.
Like 99.% of these, the toe is pointing outward only because the LEG goes that direction. It is a "rotational" issue. A high inside HEEL rotates the foot outward even more, turning the opposite toe outward. Look again at the LF picture. The INSIDE heel is high, rotating the foot outward. I wish I had a moving graphic to illustrate this because it is sometimes hard to visualize.
Patty

[calshoer]

For those who think there is no problem yet, there isnt a big one buit I saw a few little things in the pictures that need proper attention now, to PREVENT a real problem later. It is not any way trying to fix her (temporary) toe out,she is probably just going through a growth spurt like they mostly do.
The trim need to be balanced to the sole plane to prevent a sheared heel later, nothing fancy. The foot will still point where the leg points.
It is the developing heel height that is more worrisome.

Here is an example of why the very small subtle stuff like those upright feet need attention now. I had a client recently who had a filly who at this same age had feet developing to this this same subtle too-upright angle.
The mare has one slight club foot.
And the filly was getting very little turn out and way too much feed.
One foot was slightly more upright than the other.
I said the filly was developing a club foot.
The lady insisted her foal was not developing a club foot.
Her daughter is a newly graduated vet, and also insisted the foal was not club footed.
I was rockering the toes anyway to help reduce tension on the DDFT and slow or reverse the forces behind the bone rotation,and the slight club foot was stable, not getting any worse.
But her daughter (the recently graduated vet) apparently disagreed about rockering the toes and they changed farriers who began lowering the heels instead . Now, eight months later there is a more noticeable club foot.
Because the pulled the bone tip down by tensioning the deep flexor tendon while insisting it was not a club foot. They made it worse.
Patty

[caballus]

Patty ... its hard to see that the inside heel is high except for the tiny indiction of the heel bulb on the inside being a bit more developed which, yes, indicates that the heel would be longer. That's an interesting point which I might not taken note of. However, I also see the lateral wall being higher than the medial. What *I* would do would be to balance and level off both sides, including the heel so the results would be the same. But thank you for pointing out the heel info to me. It's interesting. I've not worked much with foals other than my own so this has not arisen before. I appreciate the insight.

--Gwen

[hfournier]

Here are more pictures of the right front. Maybe the heel differences will be more apparent on these. I've just gone back and looked at the horse in person (or is that "in horsen"?) and now I can see on her left front that the inside heel is higher, and I can fix that. But on the right front the heels look pretty level to me.

Patty, to rocker the toe, where would you draw the breakover line? Does she appear to have enough toe to do this? I have a guy I think can do it, but I would like to know. Kind of in between farriers at the moment - sheesh!

This is very educational. Thank you all so much.

Holly

[caballus]

The photo clearly shows the outside WALL that is longer than the inside wall. The heels may be just about even but the walls are not.

http://www.barefoottrim.com/foalimbalanceheel.jpg

I actually don't see an imbalance with the heels; they look pretty good in this photo but the walls are clearly not level. Outside wall longer = toeing out. I will, however, Patty, keep in mind the inside heel theory that you posted.

--Gwen

[calshoer]

These are GREAT pictures. I will try to illustrate the principle. First this one shows the direction of the heel driving the toe corner. RED arrow
The heel height appears the same in the quarters from this view, (green lines)
Because of the outward rotational stance of the foal, the medial heel is getting pushed inward, which if not brought back will shear the heel bulb. The next post I will show the imbalance as seen from the sole plane. The yellow dots are where I would take two more swipes the the rasp. Each swipe of the rasp on the medial heel widens the base, because of the direction of it's slant. The lateral toe corner I would not touch from the bottom except to round it a bit more than the medial to help the foal break over more centered .
Patty

[calshoer]

Here is the one that shows how I read the sole plane...this is the first picture that was posted of this foot.
the difference in the "wall to sole" depth is more visible on the previous posted pictures of the LF , if you look really close. You will see on those that the outside is right down to the sole while there is a little depth on the inside.
Also remember(and Gene Ovnicek emphasises this) that if you are not sure, the more curled heel is the high one.
See how the medial heel in this picture is more curled? And the end of it lands further forward from the widest part of the frog than the other? that is your guide. Again it only take a couple more rasp swipes on these every couple weeks. Patty

[kanderso]

The photo clearly shows the outside WALL that is longer than the inside wall. The heels may be just about even but the walls are not.

http://www.barefoottrim.com/foalimbalanceheel.jpg
--Gwen

This could also be a camera angle problem. I wonder if the camera was moved one way or another, if it might change the perspective enough that the wall would look longer somewhere else?

I've noticed that when I take photos the hoof looks completely different depending on where I hold the camera.

Kris

[kanderso]

[QUOTE=calshoer]Here is the one that shows how I read the sole plane...this is the first picture that was posted of this foot.

Which foot are we looking at? Is the medial side at the bottom of the photo?

>>>Also remember(and Gene Ovnicek emphasises this) that if you are not sure, the more curled heel is the high one.

Curled? What are we looking at? The bar, the back of the heel where it comes down to the ground surface from the coronary band?

This is a great discussion with really good pix, but I'm lost because I'm not sure which hoof we're looking at.

Kris

[caballus]

Hi Kris ... it may be part of the camera angle but if you look at the lateral side of this RF (and the latest photo that Calshoer posted verifies this with her sole arrows), you'll see that, indeed, the wall is longer than the medial side. (left side of the photo) ... I also see that the medial heel is longer as Calshoes (patty) pointed out which makes for an interesting balance of the hoof.

Quite honestly, however, I'm still not clear on how taking the inside heel down and leaving the outside wall longer is going to change the leverages the way they need to go. My original inclination (which remains) is to rasp the lateral wall down so the hoof is level and balanced on the ground. I'm not sure that I would touch the medial heel, though ... my thinking would be that if the outter wall were taken down then the inside wall and heel would go along a more upright leverage, thus stopping the shearing and allowing the hoof to grow out more in balance.

I have to say, also, that I've done this on a good number of sheared heels of older horses (including yearlings and 2 yr. olds) with good success. I've just not worked that much on weanlings or soon-to-be weanlings. I would think it would be the same, however, as the physics don't change just cause of age differences.

-- caballus

[calshoer]

Gwen wrote Quite honestly, however, I'm still not clear on how taking the inside heel down and leaving the outside wall longer is going to change the leverages the way they need to go.
What I am saying is the outside wall is not longer. It is the view that is decieving.
If you measure my green lines, which I placed carefully from the hairline down, they are identical length. It is ONLY the HEEL from behind the quarter back on the medial that is a tad higher, not the rest of the wall.
If we disagree on that we cannot ever agree on where to trim the foot. besides ,The SOLE plane dictates the trim, NOT the wall. It in doing natuiral baklance it is important to get the eyes OFF the wall and onto the sole and heel ends. The wall can be decieving.
That is a problem when you try to mix and match techniques. NB does not measure wall length from the outside. it follows the sole because that is the structure that remains most true to the bottom of the coffin bone. Everything else can move around.
Patty

[calshoer]

Kris here is a sketch of a what I mean by a curled heel. It is the shape on the bottom, and where the end of the heels is relative to the back of the frog. This one is exagerated to make the point but I have seen a few that were this much off. The more length the heel has beyond the sole the more it curls or runs forward.
Looking at your pictures the inside (medial) heel is just a *tiny* bit more curled, and there seems to be a little more depth from the ground to the sole in the quarter on that side. The pictures I used when I marked it up was your first pictures of the RF. Of course camera angle can change things that is why a close look in person at the soles is more accurate. The sole is even thickness side to side under the bottom of the bone ,so it is a very accurate guide to side to side (medial lateral) balance. Forget looking at the lengths of the hoof wall from hairline down . It will only confuse you.
The feet on this foal are really pretty well balanced medial -laterally ,but a little extra maintainance on those inside heels will help prevent hoof distortion later. Remember the toe out at this age is nothing...as the foal matures her chest will widen between the elbows, push the elbows outward, and the legs will thereby straighten. (I call it growing their b**bs. :D
Patty

[caballus]

Umm, well, then, perhaps I'm not following you. What do you mean, then, when you mark on your photo, "check here for equal depth". To what are you referring?

As for agreeing on where to trim ... I use the sole as my guiding "force", if you will, just as you do. I think we just go about things differently. I also will look at wall heights as well as the depth of the central and collateral sulcus to help me discern how thick the sole is. I trim the walls right down to the sole and, generally, except in blatant imbalances, do I leave wall above the sole callous. But I also do something that I've yet to see any other "barefooter" do (although those applying shoes do this all the time) ... I will rasp a level callous area around the entire hoof if there's enough to work with without invading live sole and soring the horse. That way the horse will appear to have a "natural" 'shoe' area ... the imprint the hoof leaves in the ground would look as if the horse had shoes on. To do this I have to read the sole to be sure the hoof is ground level and even-walled and smooth all round. This may mean that I leave one heel longer than the other according to what the hoof is telling me in terms of balance. It may be that a wall is just 1 cm higher than the other but the hairline and the way the horse is standing, naturally, will tell me this. Rasping a level sole callous allows the shock dissipation to be distributed more over a greater area, especially when the horse is landing heel-first. I've found that, for some reason, it also causes a more rapid concavity growth than when not doing this. I'm not sure how to explain this in words any better than what I'm doing now. Suffice it to say, however, that what I look for in a healthy hoof is not much different than what you look for.

I think, Patty, that you and I tend to get into semantics misunderstandings more than anything else. I do believe that the end results we desire in a good hooves are the same. How we "get there" just may be a bit different.

I do see the heel that is longer, as I said. I guess I would have to see what the hoof would do after just rasping down the heel without touching the outside wall. The way I'm envisioning the hoof results now is that if one were to just take down the heel then the hoof would be MORE off balance than it is now and would cause more shearing. I'll see if I can sketch what I mean for clarification.

--Gwen

[caballus]

Is your sketch a generic sketch or designating the rf hoof?

--G

[caballus]

http://www.barefoottrim.com/foalimbalanceheel2.jpg

OK .. this is the way I see this hoof (I do also see the curved bar indicating higher medial heel) ... I also see a bit more depth to the collateral groove on that side also indicating higher heel.

Now, maybe the digital camera spatial view is not right but looks to me like there is excessive lateral wall (as I've mentioned and as I noted on my other post) ... to back this up is the imbalance of the heel bulbs; the one I've marked here is more "pointed" indicating more pressure (from a longer wall on this side) ... also, the frog on the lateral side appears to be more flattened on the lateral side than the medial also indicating imbalanced pressure.

Oviously, as seen, the hoof shape, itself, is needing correction.

Now, the view I posted earlier that, to me, indicated longer wall, from the hairline down to the ground, on the lateral side, corresponds to the noted imbalances on the solar view. Combine both the solar view with the front views and then with the fact that the foal is standing with that foot pointing out would all indicate to me a hoof that is higher laterally than medially.

I agree the medial heel is longer but that is not just the gist of it all, to me. Granted, all it may take is a few swipes of the rasp here and there but it can mean all the difference to the balance of this hoof.

-- Gwen

[kanderso]

....It may be that a wall is just 1 cm higher than the other but the hairline and the way the horse is standing, naturally, will tell me this.
--Gwen

Perhaps this is the problem right here? A cm on any hoof, and especially a foal's hoof, is a very large difference. I think most farriers are concerned with millimeter differences when they're balancing a hoof?

Kris

[caballus]

Thank you ... mm its supposed to be.
--G

[kanderso]

[QUOTE=caballus]Hi Kris ... it may be part of the camera angle but if you look at the lateral side of this RF (and the latest photo that Calshoer posted verifies this with her sole arrows), you'll see that, indeed, the wall is longer than the medial side. (left side of the photo) ...

This is the pic of the hoof taken from the back? If this is the RF, and you look at the blue lines you drew, the line skims along the bottom of the lateral heel very close to the back of the hoof, but is skimming along the bottom of the medial heel much further forward. So what I'm seeing is a pic taken from the back, but the camera angle is from the medial side, so I'm seeing more of the medial aspect of the hoof, and your measurements are at different areas of the hoof. The lateral one is further back toward the heel, and the medial one further forward. One can only speculate whether the measurements would be more equal if they were both taken at a point the same distance from the heel (or center of the toe)?

Kris

[kanderso]

>>>>calshoer: Kris here is a sketch of a what I mean by a curled heel. It is the shape on the bottom, and where the end of the heels is relative to the back of the frog. This one is exagerated to make the point but I have seen a few that were this much off. The more length the heel has beyond the sole the more it curls or runs forward.

Thanks for the explanation. I thought that was what you meant, but my guesses have been wrong before so I thought I'd better ask.

I have the extended toe shoe off Mr. Club Foot right now, and will be resetting the modification soon, so the more I know about balancing those funny little round feet, the better. I hate having the shoe on him because it makes it so hard to work on his feet, but once I took it off and watched him move, I decided to put it back on.

>>>>Remember the toe out at this age is nothing...as the foal matures her chest will widen between the elbows, push the elbows outward, and the legs will thereby straighten. (I call it growing their b**bs. :D
Patty

Yes, Mr. Club Foot is straight, or maybe even a little toe-in at 15 months, so will probably end up pigeon toed when his chest widens out.

Thanks for all the tips on how to interpret the different shapes. The discussions about how to look at each individual part of the hoof and then interpret its shape, relative to what it should look like when the hoof is balanced, are very helpful.

Kris

[kanderso]

http://www.barefoottrim.com/foalimbalanceheel2.jpg

OK .. this is the way I see this hoof (I do also see the curved bar indicating higher medial heel) ... I also see a bit more depth to the collateral groove on that side also indicating higher heel.....

-- Gwen

It looks to me like your circle isn't centered on the hoof. Shouldn't the line that would bisect the circle go through the center of the frog, or are you positioning it on the hoof using some other criteria?

Kris

[caballus]

I followed the sole with the perimeter of the circle to show the excess hoof from one side to the other. Since you noticed it, you are right about it not being centered ... and since this is following the perimeter of the sole it is further evidence that the hoof is not in balance.

--Gwen

[calshoer]

Is your sketch a generic sketch or designating the rf hoof?
Totally generic.
Umm, well, then, perhaps I'm not following you. What do you mean, then, when you mark on your photo, "check here for equal depth". To what are you referring?
See picture here. If you watch Genes videos he lays a rasp across the foot on the wall and looks underneath it, to the sole. That depth. For example if one side is 1/16" deep at the widest part of the foot, the other side should be the same. If the wall is exactly the same level as the sole callous in one toe corner, the other toe corner should be the same.

Kris asked:
It looks to me like your circle isn't centered on the hoof. Shouldn't the line that would bisect the circle go through the center of the frog, or are you positioning it on the hoof using some other criteria?
Here is why the circle isn't centered..because the foot is shifting in a diagonal direction toward the outside toe. The toe is not longer from the hairline tothe ground, , it is just flaring. This is a common optiocal illusion that throws a lot of farriers off and makes them want to shorten outside toe when it is really inside heel that is the problem. Hope these pictures help clear this up some.
Patty

[caballus]

Patty, would you designate the flaring from the front photos? I'm not seeing it. Usually, also, flaring is accompanied by wall separation? Not seeing that, either.

I, personally, am very aware that walls can "appear" to be longer. Especially when there is a coronary/periople angle that is negative on the opposite hoof but the angle seems to be just about the same both sides. (both causing the hoof to be more narrow at the base than the coronary band.) I'm glad you pointed it out, however. What I also noticed on the front right is that there is more of a jamming in the hairline on the outside or perhaps that's just a skewing from the angle of the photo. But it would correlate, as well, to what I am saying.

It's so hard to decipher with digital photos as they really aren't true 3 dimensional ... what looks to one like a excess wall that might be beginning to flare could also be a height thing.

Thanks for the tip on the checking of levelness with the rasp ... that's always been one of the first things I teach and comes in very handy to help clients visualize the imbalances. ;)

Perhaps we could get some photos with the rasp shown as such? That would directly address both interpretations of the photos.

--Gwen

[matryoshka]

Hey Patty,

I remember reading one of your posts (some time ago) about the opposite heel being the problem on a toed in or out hoof. Since then I have looked very closely at these types of feet, and I see what you meant. It is hard not to be swayed by optical illusions when trimming odd-shaped feet.

I recently trimmed one that had a twisted hoof capsule. Depending on which angle I observed it from, different areas of the wall looked high or low. I relied on the sole depth to guide the trimming (there was simply no other way to do it). A couple of weeks later, a more experienced farrier trimmed the hoof again, and said I did a reasonable job other than leaving too much flare in one spot (I was afraid it would lame the horse if I removed it). Then he cut it MUCH shorter in order to "work the frog," and the horse was sore and unusable for over a week. This will probably result in a quicker hoof rehab, but it was hard on the horse. :o

Anyway, thanks for the great advice. There are times when there is no roadmap other than the sole. I always use the live sole plane as a guide, but then I verify the results of the trim using traditional methods taught in the Butler book. It can get confusing, but it helps me form a mental catalog of distortions and how they affect the hoof wall.

Pam

[kanderso]

[QUOTE=caballus]I followed the sole with the perimeter of the circle to show the excess hoof from one side to the other. Since you noticed it, you are right about it not being centered ... and since this is following the perimeter of the sole it is further evidence that the hoof is not in balance.

It doesn't look to me like the circle is following the perimeter of the sole, though. I'm sorry to nit pick like this, because the discussion is very informative even without accurate pix and circles and lines, but accurate labels and data, IMO, would make it even better!

Kris

[kanderso]

....Hope these pictures help clear this up some.
Patty

Yes, thank you. The labeling makes it so much easier to follow the discussion.

Kris

[hfournier]

The camera angles on the pictures are surely a bit off, but they were the best I could get with a hoof in one hand, camera in other hand and nobody to hold the little knucklehead still.

Regardless, the diagrams were true to form and helped me make the adjustments so that I got her feet almost perfect (she melted down before I finished). Already I can see that she is standing much straighter, especially on the perfect hoof, while still toed out as she should be. I'll touch her up today, the vet will see her tomorrow morning and I'll follow up after that and post a new picture.

(Note to self: Never photograph hooves again without marking them first.)

Holly

[kanderso]

[QUOTE=hfournier]The camera angles on the pictures are surely a bit off, but they were the best I could get with a hoof in one hand, camera in other hand and nobody to hold the little knucklehead still.

It's not that they're off so much as we have to learn to interpret the camera angle when we're looking at a hoof.

>>>(Note to self: Never photograph hooves again without marking them first.)

I have all I can do to get out there when it's light enough so the flash doesn't go off all the time, clean the hoof, and follow a moving target around without getting the camera stepped on. Right now I'm sporting a nice purple and green shiner where my colt bent his knee to stomp flies and kneed me right in the eye!

And that's what I get for trying to take macros! :-)

I did remember to tie a piece of twine around the right front pastern though, because once I took the shoe off I couldn't tell which hoof I was looking at in half my photos!

I thought you got some nice photos of your filly's feet. I learned a lot from the discussion, and it was great to be able to use the same photos to discuss several different parts of the hoof, and what the differences in shape indicated.

Kris

[Phil Armitage]

This post is very informative with a lot of great questions and ideas. Couple of key points I walked away with.

1. Trimming heels too short could cause a higher grade club due to adding to the Deep Flexor pull. I think this can happen, I was taught to trim the heels a little at a time sqaure up the baby and see if the heels are contacting the ground, only trim to where a credit card can just slide under the heels. I have also learned the muscles can also relax after a trim therefore reduceing the pull on the Deep Flexor Tendon. Considering the muscle has just as much impact on the pull of the foot this just causes more questions in my mind.

2. Medial/Lateral balance and Toe-in/Toe-out, most babys toe out in the front because that is the way they are and change as they grow. If a horse naturaly toes in or out do not correct it. Trimming the medial side more on a toed in horse will turn the feet out and trimming the lateral side more on a toed out horse will turn the feet in. Correction like this will stress the limb and lower joints and ligaments. Unbalanced feet can cause toe out or toe in appearance, texts will say the medial side is longer on a toed in horse and the lateral side is longer on a toed out horse and this is true.

The key to medial/lateral balance it trimming the hoof to match the limb. There are several methods available to determine this, I have found useing the sole plane is the easiest and most accurate, but it is not the only way or tool. The curl in the bars is caused by pressure in excess heel length pushing the bar and curling it. So this can be used to show where the foot has more pressure, this pressure can be caused by excess length on either side of the foot depending on the conformation. What I mean is, the curl could be the side that has excess length or the side that has excess pressure. Excess pressure could be caused by excess length on the same side as the curl or excess length on the opposite side depending on the horses conformation and how they move. It can get complicated, sheared heels and jamming in the hoof wall can get just as complicated. Throw a subclinical lameness in there like mild laminitis and you have more distortion in the hoof and compensateing that makes things even more confuseing. Trimming to the sole plane and useing all the landmarks you can and observing conformation and movement all help. I also like to refresh my memory on conformation faults and how to trim out of Doug Butlers book, all the tools and history you can learn helps alot.

Great discussion and very informative, everyone has added great points that has sparked alot of ideas and more questions.

[caballus]

I learned something this weekend. Well, I had learned it before but it hadn't gotten fully cemented into the whole picture of things yet for me. But thought I would share and this little colt is a good example. I hope I can effectively describe this. Writing it down in this manner is helping me further digest. I took one of the first photos of this hoof and rotated it for illustrative purposes.

http://www.barefoottrim.com/cbpositioning.jpg

First off:

Points A and B are designating the depth of the collateral grove at the heel.
Notice that the depth is not equal on either side of the hoof. The depth of the collateral grooves in any horse's hoof are consistent in showing us the positioning of the CB in the caudal foot. Meaning, the sole at the deepest part of the collateral grove at the heel is consistent in thickness to the distal plane of the CB on either side. (approx. 1/2") So, looking at the depth of point A when compared to point B shows us that the ground level plane of this hoof is a bit skewed with B being closer to ground level than A. This is also further depicted by the angle of Line E .. showing the balance medial to lateral from the rear of the hoof. Or, rather, imbalance in this case. The very top line above points A and B show the horizontal plane to which the hoof is trimmed. That appears to be horizontally balanced BUT is not in balance with the inner foot of this hoof. Of course, lines C and D further indicate the imbalance of this foot.

If anyone is questioning if this leg/hoof is vertically depicted correctly (not leaning to the left or right so as to skew the horizontal lines) then just imagine or draw your center line up the middle of the leg through the hoof and check out the angle - it appears to be pretty straight up vertical)

So, in looking at the trimmed hoof from this angle one can further see the imbalances and imagine the affects on the growing limbs. In the case of an adult horse, one can only imagine the affects these imbalances have on gaits and movement as well as overall comfort with connection with the entire musculoskelatal system.

Again, just thought I'd share what valuable information those collateral grooves have for us. Just to note, also, that the depth of the grooves at the apex of the frog tells us just how close to ground level the tip of the P3 is inside the foot, also. I think I did mention this all on a different thread with regards to being able to assess where the P3 lies in the hoof but this brings it into sharper focus.

--Gwen

[hfournier]

Update on Shelby's hoof angle progress (haven't photod bottoms again yet). Now 8.5 months old. Vet declared her "clubby" in September. I've been working on her every week. What do ya'll think?

Holly

[hfournier]

Left front before and after

[hfournier]

Right front before and after

[Rick Burten]

I think that there is marked improvement. It looks to me like you can still take just a bit more heel off the right front, but overall, things look much better.

[kanderso]

[QUOTE=hfournier]Update on Shelby's hoof angle progress (haven't photod bottoms again yet). Now 8.5 months old. Vet declared her "clubby" in September. I've been working on her every week. What do ya'll think?

Holly,

If you can would you take some pix of the bottoms for me? I have an 18 month old who had the DDFT surgery in August, and the surgery definitely changed the clubby hoof. It looks to me like the surgery relieved the tension on the lateral side of the hoof more than the medial side, which is much more obvious when I look at the bottom of the hoof.

My colt's also still trying to grow heel, and like you I have to trim him often.

The only things I noticed about Shelby's hooves is that the growth lines are so much wider at the heels, and the front of the pastern, just above the coronary band, doesn't have much of a dip in it. My colt didn't have the extra wide discrepancy between the toe and heel growth lines, but he did have the bump at the front of the pastern where there should have been a dip. His hoof wall was starting to distort though, so he needed the surgery. It doesn't look as if Shelby's are distorting at all, which is probably a good sign.

Kris

http://duende.dhs.org/kris/ForSale.html

[hfournier]

Okay, here are the bottoms. She's been wearing down the inside heels and growing outside heels like mad. Every time I think I've got her even, a week later I look again and think, "Geez, did I do that?"

I forgot to mention that the vet also diagnosed mild physitis, noted by swelling in the front knees. She said that DDFT contraction and physitis often went together and advised working on balancing her nutrition and taking a wait and see approach, that if surgery were needed it would be just as effective at age two as now.

I've changed her balancing her nutrition, better minerals, ABC's Plus, weaned her, etc. The physitis seems to be improving. She's still never been lame and is landing heel-first.

Holly