Collateral Ligament Calcification

[Jaye Perry]

Here are a couple of X-rays of "Supposely" calcification of one or more of the collateral lateral navicular ligaments. Will take some pics of the foot , the horse is on schedule for tommorow.

[calshoer]

I am certainly not a radiologist but it looks like there may be a little something at the proximal end (near P2 ) of the suspensory ligament of the navicular bone? DRs here? Any comments?
Did they supply you with a report in the clinical exam, ie the nerve blocks?
I would be trying EDSS and whichever rails it takes to align him better and ease breakover in all directions around the foot.
Patty

[Jaye Perry]

I am certainly not a radiologist ,would be trying EDSS and whichever rails it takes to align him better and ease breakover in all directions around the foot.
Patty


Me neithr'.

Major University wedged and railed, crippled him even more.Shoeing was put off today due to a bad reflux colic of another horse in the same small barn. Will do next week.

[Rick Burten]

Jaye

in the DV view, it appears to my non-radiologist eye that on the lateral side,p3 is being impinged on by p2 There does not appear to be any joint space there and compared to the medial side, the form/angle of the bone is sufficiently different to indicate a problem. Perhaps it was just the way the radiograph was taken, but there also seems to be some occlusion occuring there too.

It is interesting that wedges and rails made the horse more lame. Were the shoes fitted up with what we might consider correct breakover and heel support? Were the shoes like the "Redden Rails" or the Grand Circuit "T" shoes?
What was used under the wedges? Is the horse sore to hoof testers over the frog? over the anterior sole? Bars and sulci?

What is your plan for this horse(apart from an intracranial injection at 960fps of 440 grains of pharmaceutical grade plumbum)?

[Dave Purves]

J(apart from an intracranial injection at 960fps of 440 grains of pharmaceutical grade plumbum)?


I have to remember that one, but one question, is plumbum and actual term or should it be replaced with something more "scientific"?
ROTFLMFAO
Dave

[Rick Burten]

I have to remember that one, but one question, is plumbum and actual term or should it be replaced with something more "scientific"?
ROTFLMFAO
Dave

Plumbum is the scientific name for "Lead" and is used on the Periodic Table of the Elements. Its symbol is, IIRC, "Pb". It is also the basis for the word "Plumber" and its dirivetives. The "b" is silent.

Rick

[calshoer]

Major University wedged and railed, crippled him even more.Shoeing was put off today due to a bad reflux colic of another horse in the same small barn. Will do next week.
There can be a lot of variation in HOW rails are used. The may have arbritrarily railed him up too far. Or didnt addres breakover ,or didn't
support the frog, or supported it too much.
Sometimes the smallest rail is appropriate, just enough to ease breakover medial laterally in the turns without much wedging, sometimes taller rails are better. The horse will tell the applicator what to use if he/she follows the horses responses as the *adjustments* are made before the horse leaves the shop. That is why I usually choose EDSS ,because it is so adjustable. And sometimes I use NO rails. Or you might try a flat shoe with an inner rail welded all around to ease breakover with no wedging. With or without equpack, depending on how he hoof tests before you shoe him. This is the type of case I would sure be playing around with before I nailed anything on.
I might duct tape s**** wedge pads on the feet to varying heights and walk him to see where he seems most comfortable, or tape on s**** double nail pads cut a little smaller around than the foot to see if he likes eased ML breakover with no wedge. Things like that, before I nail anything to the feet. Takes fifteen or twenty minutes but well worth the exprimenting before deciding on the shoeing package. Read the horse. Patty
Patty

[Ronald Aalders]

Rick mentioned the jointspaces not being even in the DV view, however I don't think this is the kind of view that can provide any insight on that.

I have been thinking for a longer period about the role of the collateral ligaments in horses that do not land even. I wonder if some kind of problem in either of the two ligaments would force the uneven landing.

Jaye I'm really interested if the diagnosis of calcified CLS will hold up. If you find out more please let us know!


Ronald Aalders

[Rick Burten]

Rick mentioned the jointspaces not being even in the DV view, however I don't think this is the kind of view that can provide any insight on that.
Ronald Aalders

Ron, I wasn't referring to the horizontal joint spaces, rather the apparant distances between the distal sides of p2 and p3. Look at the shape of the lateral distal side of p2 and compare it with the medial distal side of p2. Look at the shape of the medial wing as compared to the lateral wing of p3. Look at how p2 appears to be sitting in relation to p3. Perhaps the horse was not standing squarely or shifted his weight as the rad was taken, but it sure appears that p2 is rubbing on p3 on the lateral side.

But then, like I said, I'm not a radiologist, so what do I know? :(

[Jaye Perry]

in the DV view, it appears to my non-radiologist eye that on the lateral side,p3 is being impinged on by p2 There does not appear to be any joint space there and compared to the medial side, the form/angle of the bone is sufficiently different to indicate a problem. Perhaps it was just the way the radiograph was taken, but there also seems to be some occlusion occuring there too.


Hopefully it was the the way the Rad was taken. Most good vets will give a little cocktail before taking x-rays. I too am concerned about the joint spacings ;but some food for thought here. If by chance the foot had been trimmed improperly for so long that the forces impacting the foot caused the "supposed" calcification there would be little medio/lateral and dorso/ palmar movement to the foot.
Given that, the coffin joint is essientially a hinge joint( not to perturb the true anatomist among us). The coffin joint, IMO, is some what ampiarthrotic, abilitiy to have a full range of movement in couple of primary directions , but also has limited movement in other directions.
The coffin joint has primary movements of retraction and protraction but also has some side to side movements,medio/lateral, which gives the horse the ability to stand walk on a side of a hill. If the collateral ligament(s) have been effected by bad trimming over a period of time and the workload exacebates the medio/lateral problem calcification can occur. IE- side bones.
Also there is some feathering of the lateral wing of the coffin bone which indicates some trauma in the past.



It is interesting that wedges and rails made the horse more lame. Were the shoes fitted up with what we might consider correct breakover and heel support? Were the shoes like the "Redden Rails" or the Grand Circuit "T" shoes?
What was used under the wedges? Is the horse sore to hoof testers over the frog? over the anterior sole? Bars and sulci?

NBS rail system to my knowledge. That was what I informed of. Having been shod at a major university I **would** think most or all of the NBS protocal(S) were followed(?)



What is your plan for this horse(apart from an intracranial injection at 960fps of 440 grains of pharmaceutical grade plumbum)?

Not having seen the horse or the foot(feet), but having a pertainate history my inclination is to shoe the horse like it has a broken coffin bone. Total stabilzaton of the foot, hoof capsule. More than likey a welded aluminum heartbar with Trueflite rim pad and some Justi Soft Pour.

[Ronald Aalders]

Rick, I see what you mean, but would this effect not be caused by having just the one leg on the X ray block? A pretty common error among vets.

And I'm no radiologist either! Just a shoer with a passion :D


Ronald Aalders

[Rick Burten]

Rick, I see what you mean, but would this effect not be caused by having just the one leg on the X ray block? A pretty common error among vets.

And I'm no radiologist either! Just a shoer with a passion :D

Ronald Aalders

Ronald

I would agree that a faulty radiographic technique could perhaps cause this effect and I might well chalk it up to that except for what appears to me to be changes in the shape of both p2 and p3.

I suppose this is a good example of why while I may often look at radiographs, I let the veterniary 'experts' do the diagnosing and (generally speaking) the prescribing, and I do the fabrication and installation. :o

[calshoer]

NBS rail system to my knowledge. That was what I informed of. Having been shod at a major university I **would** think most or all of the NBS protocal(S) were followed(?)
Unfortunately I have seen university applications of EDSS completely botched up. One fellow who used to shoe at one unuiversity contuinually trimmed toes too way short and sored them. (I saw a lot of the before and after Xrays and the amount of sole he removed. That guy couldn't put down his knife)
Another one I saw out of another unuiversity was so bastardized you could hardly call it EDSS, but that is what they told the owner it was. Wish I could have seen the one in question here. Usually when the screw it up it is in either the trim or the adjustments.
Patty