Correcting stumbling horse- can it be done without shoes?

[robertap]

My 9 year old Arabian tends to stumble, and twice over the past year has fallen to his knees, hitting his nose on the ground. The first time he was wearing shoes and trotting downhill. After an unrelated injury, he was off for a year, during which time he was barefoot. His feet are great- big, good shape, strong- and I would like to keep him barefoot. I use him for dressage and endurance riding. Two weeks ago he tripped again while walking on a loose rein, on a good surface, with his head down.
His front feet brush or scuff the ground before landing, which my vet feels explains the stumbling. I asked my farrier to shorten his toe, but he still stumbles occasionally. If I draw a line across the widest part of his hoof, ~50% of the hoof is in front of the line. His heels seem fine- not too low, and not turned under.
I would very much like to keep this horse, and keep him from stumbling. The vet has ruled out neurological problems. My vet recommends putting Natural Balance horseshoes on to change his breakover point and reduce the stumbling. I would appreciate advice on whether this is the best way to proceed. Thank you!

[Red Amor]

Gday
give us a look at his feet will ya please sport and then we'll be better able to advise you
close up shots if you please mate
good O

[caballus]

If I draw a line across the widest part of his hoof, ~50% of the hoof is in front of the line.

Might I suggest that you take a gander at http://www.hopeforsoundness and read about "Natural Balance Trim" ?

I would surmise that your horse is probably landing toe first because the hoof is imbalanced and cannot land heel-first as it should.

--Gwen

[Mike Ferrara]

I would surmise that your horse is probably landing toe first because the hoof is imbalanced and cannot land heel-first as it should.

--Gwen

Really? I see a lot of feet that don't have ideal shape and proportions and most of those horses aren't stmbling. Not that I would stick my neck out too far with the little bit of information that we have but this cought my eye Two weeks ago he tripped again while walking on a loose rein, on a good surface, with his head down.

This too His front feet brush or scuff the ground before landing, which my vet feels explains the stumbling.

I wouldn't be so quick to put all my eggs in the "balance" basket without seeing the horse go or at least asking a buch of questions.

Does he stumble under lots of different conditions or is it mostly under saddle? Does it happen more when the horse is tired? How long after being trimmed was the indident? Were the feet long at the time? What kind of injury did the horse have to be off for a year? Did the horse always stumble?Well, that's a start. I have to go to work.

[caballus]

His front feet brush or scuff the ground before landing, which my vet feels explains the stumbling.

Well, hooves that land heel first aren't gonna be scuffing the ground with their toes. So that was one clue, Mike, that the horse isn't landing heel first.

If the hoof isn't landing heel first, it isn't in balance. That was the 2nd clue. :)

Maybe I will add this ... the FIRST thing *I* would look at would be the most obvious/most simple and that would be the balance/imbalance of the hooves. I would eliminate the most obvious things/clues, first, and go from there in my search for what ails this horse.

--Gwen

[Rick Burten]

Seems to me that the answers are already before us in the original post.

1. The horse stumbled/fell while trotting downhill
and
2. "two weeks ago he tripped again while walking on a loose rein, on a good surface with his head down."

This scenario has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not he was wearing shoes. It has to do , IMNTBCHO, solely with the rider and his/her competence and ability, or lack thereof. In other words, horsemanship.

"his front feet brush or scuff the ground before landing:

This does not mean that he comes to the ground toe first, which would cause stumbling. It only means that he is moving low. Now, this could be due to some injury or pain or other pathology higher up, or it could just be his way of going.

Since apparently, his rider, allows him to lollygag around, uncollected and disunited I would say that that is where the problem lies.

If the vet is correct and the ground brushing is the cause of the stumbling, then that vet, or some other vet needs to come up with a diagnosis of the pathology that is causing the horse to consistently move in that manner.

Merely applying an orthotic will not resolve the problem, especially if the problem is not with the horse. It won't even be an effective bandaid.

And, Gwen, there are a lot of horses who scuff the ground with the toe and still land either flat or slightly heel first. And, I do agree with you that one should eliminate the most obvious things first. To me, the most obvious, is the way this horse is being ridden. Along with that, I'd look at saddle fit , mandibular alignment, etc. IOW, it seems as though this horse may have a people problem.

[Donnie Walker]

Try ponying this horse without saddle or rider and then tell us what happens.

[caballus]

Yep, didn't think of the rider angle so you are correct, Rick. In addition to that, I have to add that a well trained/taught horse will know HOW to carry himself with a rider regardless of loose rein or collected. So, in that respect I do agree. But, being more drawn to the hooves than the training of the rider (even though I love teaching horses!), I tend to look down, first.

If the OP would post some photos then we all could see.

:)

[frank brown]

robert--unknown it it helps any, but, the number of horses that occasionally stumble are many many to be sure. you have described two or three incidents, and if you only trot this horse (as opposed to gallop) I would be unconcerned. in addition to shoe, i ride daily, and there is hardly a day that passes without some horse loligaggin along doing everything but paying attention to where he places the feet. there is a stumble a day (four horses) and an occasional near fall to the knees. happens, and we have perfectly shod feet, if i may say so. is there a way to shoe to prevent stumbling? short of correcting a botched up trimming job, i would say "no" and count on someone to reply if this is wrong. your 50-50 ratio already is close to natural balance guidelines. however, your vet thinks he needs shoes. what does your farrier think. does your farrier see any bruising when he/she trims the soles. does your farrier agree with the landing problem. is the landing problem merely conformation. there are lots of causes, rider error, conformation, questionable shoeing, mind set of the horse, pain, rocks, etc.

[robertap]

Hi All,

Thank you for the info and questions. I will answer some of the posted questions here, and take photos and post them later today.

1. The horse stumbles much more under saddle than when being lunged. The brushing I described before his feet hit the ground are only seen when being ridden. The brushing of his feet occurse whether or not he is tired.

2. In addition to having my vet examine him (several times), I have had another vet who does chiropratic and acupuncture examine and treat him. Neither vet has found obvious pathology that would explain the stumbling (although the second vet found problems in his hocks and pelvis). The chiropractic/acupuncture treatment did not affect his foot movement.

3. Both the saddles I use on him are custom fitted to him. The fitting was done by one saddler, and I had the fit rechecked several weeks ago by another saddler, who said the fit was excellent for both saddles.

4. I don't believe that rider position explains the problem for several reasons. My horse is trained for both dressage (First Level) and endurance, I am considered a very good rider with a good seat (by a number of dressage trainers and other trainers and riders at my barn), and my trainer is an excellent rider. I also have specifically asked my vet whether my position/riding could be causing the horse to stumble, and received an emphatic "no" for the answer.

5. My horse stumbles (under saddle) when working at the walk and trot and when walking on a loose rein (such as walking out to the ring to work). I can't say if he stumbles right now at the canter under saddle- I'm not cantering him under saddle until I can resolve the problem. He's fine cantering on the lunge line.

6. The injury that sidelined him for a year was getting tangled up in a wire fence, which resulted in injuries to his hind legs. We had turned him out after his first fall in the hopes that he would learn to pay attention to where his feet were. He was fortunate in that he had no tendon or ligament damage, but it took a long time for the injuries to heal. We recently turned him out for several months in a pasture with wood and mesh fencing, and he was fine.

7. I haven't had any luck finding a farrier who is interested in solving this problem without shoeing the horse. My vet and trainer feel that the best solution is to put Natural Balance shoes on him.

Thanks all for the info; photos to come.

[calshoer]

Well drum roll and toot the horns.. Gwen and I totally agree on the first course of action for this horse! Check his hoof balance. If he is landing toe first (the post DID say "scuffing" his toes),then something is wrong.
Not every horse with bad proportions lands toe first, (most do though) but so far all the ones that land toe first I have seen have bad proportions. There is a direct correletion.
He COULD be heel sore from someone leaving the heels underrun or too tall, or need the toe rolled a bit more. or both. He IS an arabian and they have generally good feet so I would try barefoot IF the terrian is suitable, AND the toe an be rolled to where it needs to be without invading live sole. AND the coffin joint does not need added support for alignment, AND he is not at all footsore on whatever ground he needs to go on. (In my practice they need to pass all the criteria, or I shoe them )

In my experience 99% of them quit stumbling with correct hoof balance and bone alignment. It may take shoes but in this case if all the criteria for barefoot are alright Imiht try barefoot,because he is an arabian.
As to going head down, I had a little TB stallion who could full out gallop (run off actually) with his nose all the way in the dirt and he never stumbled(thank god.....it was scarey )
Patty

[robertap]

Here are photos of Lubaan's feet, side view. I'll post the bottom views in a separate message. I'm looking forward to your comments and advice. Let me know if you want different views.

Also, any suggestions as to how to find a farrier who does balanced barefoot trimming in the Los Angeles, CA area? I haven't had success with trying word of mouth, EasyCare, AANHCP, or Jaime Jackson.

Thanks all.

[robertap]

Here are the photos of the bottom of his feet. Thanks again. I didn't post his left rear foot- 10 photos is a lot- but I can do if folks want to look at it.
Cheers!

[calshoer]

What I see are very good quality feet but with a noticeable problem. . The front half of the feet are in terrific form ,naturally rolled toe and short.
But the HEELS are FAR too long. He is probably heel sore,hence the toe forst landing. .
I do not normally direct folks from here to to the website of the method I promote but in this case it will offer you the best explanation of what you need to look for in your horses feet. Thank you Gwen for already doing that.
DO go to the hopeforsoundness website ,there is a free tutorial on natural balance barefoot trimming ,and shoeing. You can study it and also print it for free (it is a PDF file with lots of good pictures).
One caveat.....The farrier or trimmer MUST understand HOW to reduce those heels without ending up trimming *anything* more off the front half of the foot. There IS a way. The NB trimming video is a great instruction video I recommend it.
Looking at this trim it is apparent the farrier is not applying natural balance *Principles* to the feet, and if he attempts to apply the NB shoes to a foot improperly trimmed it could spell complete failure, and may cause other problems. He MUST understand what to do with the back half of the foot and how to prevent trimming the front half too short in the process.Therefore so the NB shoeing instruction video is a must see, BEFORE HE TRIES IT. Please run this bit of advice through your vet too, to insure both the vet and farrier fully understand this is not just about a shoe type, it is about a total package of rebalancing ther foot.
Patty

[caballus]

What I noticed right off is that he's standing square on the right front but behind on the left front. If you notice, there is a wave in the hairline of the left front indicating a pressure point and if you follow an imaginary line straight down the hoof from the wave in the hairline, you can see where there's more pressure on that heel (imbalanced). Now look at the hairline of the right front and you'll see that its fairly straight with no waves or bumps or dips. And, the horse is standing straight and square on that leg. So that hoof doesn't seem to be in too much discomfort. So, from this I would gather that he is more sore on the LF than the right and stumbled more when landing on that hoof? Also, the LF solar shows bar material that is way overgrown and has, in fact, broken. That overgrown bar material will act as not only scar tissue with little give but also may trap dirt and gravel underneath causing sores on the live sole. I also noted that there is a slight wave in the hairline on the right rear and then, when viewing the solar view, noticed that the lateral wall is longer than the medial and that would account for the wave in the hairline (longer wall = more pressure on that side).

I agree with Patty (more drum roll and horns, please?) that the heels are too long and need to be taken down and back, too. A good balancing of these hooves would go a long way in helping to correct his stumbling.

--Gwen

[robertap]

Thanks Patty and Gwen for the information about Lubaan's feet. I'm arranging with a farrier recommended by EDSS to have his feet examined, trimmed, and shod if appropriate. I'll post the results here once I get someone out. Thank you again for your help.

[Forgewizard]

Robertap:

While the other folks here have touched nicely on your horse's hooves, I'd say unequivocally; fire your saddle fitter! NOW! The photo of your horses standing shows that your saddle has been designed much to narrowly for his back and has caused considerable atrophy of his muscling directly behind the tops of his shoulder blades!

A too narrow saddle placed too far forward will cause this also. All too often people focus on the feet when the problem is much higher up!

The area behind your horses' shoulder blades should be well filled in and NOT have a dip as is evidenced by your photo! The top of his shoulder blades should flow smoothly into his back! You should NOT see a hollow there or be able to see such defined shadowing!

Fitting the saddle to this "dip" only exacerbates the muscle atrophy! Whether or not the muscles will be able to fill back in and recover from their abuse will remain to be seen over time and after extensive muscle massage and rebuilding. How to rebuild his muscling? Personally I would NOT ride him with the saddles you have been riding him in. Try going bareback for extended periods of time if you MUST ride him. Otherwise if you can - just pony him- either from another horse, or a vehicle. Work him up an down hills.Over cavalletti, low jumps, ground poles. Lunge him on a VERY wide arc through soft going and if you have one handy- in and out of a "borrow pit" (hole in the ground used to extract dirt). Belly lifts and pelvic flexes, as well as leteral flexing will help too. Stretch his legs on all planes. Massage, massage, massage!

If he drives, drive him As LONG AS HIS HARNESS SADDLE FITS HIM PROPERLY!

Other areas that will cause a horse to stumble that folks often overlook are a too tight browband, poor dentition, blocked tear ducts.

While correct shoes will help, your horse's problem begins much higher than his hooves! Good luck!