Pads

[Horse angle]

Hello all:
I have had a navicular horse for 5 years. There has been ups and downs like all of you I guess. At the moment he is shoed with an egg bar with frog protector. The problem we started to have is that due to the lack of heel we have decided to try and install a pad.. He has started to limp more with this.The pad does free the frog. My horse also has flat feet. Yea nothing to help him. Can the pad cause a problem ?

[caballus]

More likely than not, your horse probably has very long, underslung and overgrown heels that are short only from the leverages of his weight bearing causing the heel to roll over. This causes heel pain. It also sets the hoof up for having gravel, sand, dirt trapped under the rolled over heel material which is the equivalent of one of us walking with stones in our shoes. Very uncomfortable. Adding the pad only put more pressure onto the hoof as it added that little bit of extra thickness over the sole. Coupled with the long, low heels is usually long toes which also exacerbate the painful condition.

Even if this is not the case and, perhaps the heels are truly short and too low, this causes discomfort, also ... in this case I would allow the heel to grow a bit more and not trim it down so short.

Also, make sure the toes are trimmed back and the major weightbearing of the horse is on the caudal 2/3rds of the hooves. A correct heel-first landing of the hoof with a quick breakover will just about guarantee better functioning of the hooves and better health.

Either way, if your horse has had navicular for 5 years, you might think about doing something to eradicate the cause of the navicular, if you can, and yes, it CAN be done (click here to read a profound case) (http://www.barefoottrim.com/services/pegasus.htm) ... remove the shoes, have the hooves trimmed up physiologically correct according to the individual hoof and assume a husbandry schedule that would be beneficial to allowing more movement of the horse outdoors. 24/7 turnout if possible with free choice hay, vitamin supplement, free choice mineral and plain salt is all that should be needed in addition to the sparse turnout grasses. If more calories/energy are required added fat can be supplemented to the diet as well.

I suggest this as an alternative to the treatment that is being given your horse now. After 5 years I'd say that your present regime of treatment isn't working very well and would think that perhaps you'd be interested in trying something new. So, the above gives you some thought material.

:) Gwen

[joan cameron]

Horseangle, I also had a mare with severe navicular changes on her xrays. :Vet & farrier tried all sorts of stuff, eggbar shoes with dental impression material, special pads with frog support, etc. etc, she'd be okay initially and then get worse...she was very flat footed, but bones inside her foot were where they belonged. I finally retired her to a rescue where she was adopted and has a great home. But I wish I had known then what I know now and I would have tried pulling the shoes and starting all over. I'll never know if barefoot would have helped her, but it probably wouldn't have hurt...I spent alot of $ on different "experts" and trying the conventional approaches, bute, isoxeprene, special shoeing....it only made her worse. I suspect too much pressure on her soles from all that stuff....if you have an experienced barefoot trimmer near you, you might consider pulling the shoes and starting over and seeing if you can get some healing in that foot...I imagine the bullets will start flying here now...but having been there it was the one approach I regret having not known about. Good Luck.

[calshoer]

It all has to do with the way the feet are trimmed, SHOES OR NOT.
Some barefoot only proponente here(who blatantly advertize by sending everyone to their own website) would have you believe you must remove shoes altogether to fix the problem, but that is absoltely not true.It is the way the foot is prepared and the WAY the shoes are used that is the problem.
I totally agree that the heels of the FOOT need to be addressed correctly before anything is applied (or not applied) to the foot. If the heels of the foot are left too long in an atempt t o"get more heel", they simply underrun, and get low but it is because they are *smashed*,and bruised underneath, not because they are to short. Then you get heel pain. Egg bar shoes only exacerbate underrun heels more . Adding pads without trimming the heels of the foot down Pads, especially weege pads, excerbates it more.
So the solution is to remove the underrun heels to get the whole back of the FOOT into better from function. Then a PROPERLY applied shoe and pad system, (even wedge pad or a wedge rail system) if needed can be employed to *speed healing* and attain immediate comfort in the process.Also part of the equation to oprevent and help heal navicular issues is the breakover point. It MUST be placed in the corect place relative to the end of the coffin bone to ease strain on the support structures and the coffin joint (navicular bone included) inside the foot as the horse moves over his toe.
Too many veterinarians prescribe a certain KIND of shoe with no regard to realigning anything inside the foot, or keeping proper from to the outside structures (the bars and heels) .
However if your farrier doesn't understand this either,and you can not find a farrier who does, then the horse is indeed probably better off withuot shoes.
Patty

[Horse angle]

Thank-you for the reply's. My farrier and i just tryed with the pads to get more heel. you see after 4 weeks the frog reaches the frog protector and he starts to get pain. Is there any product i can use to make the heels grow???? HugoBoss really has no heels. We do ride everyday not too long but about an hour a day. he trots and gallops with out refusing any of my comands . He is stiff when he gets out of his stall but all is fine when we ride. He will be out 24/ 7 as soon as the ranch owner makes him a place to be out.. He was suppose to be out this summer but there was no room for him to be out. He is in a 10 x 12 stall but still it is not enough for him.. I have also thought of natural trimming but the farrier says HugoBoss has a big foot his big problem is his heels. He has none.

[calshoer]

Can you post some *close up* pictures of the feet? ? from the sides, (camera at ground level) from the heels ,and the sole of the foot? that would help more. I have a hunch about something but need to see the feet.
Patty

[Horse angle]

No problem i will go to the ranch this afternoon and bring my camera.. Thank-you so much...

[joan cameron]

Patty, with all due respect, this site is useful to share ideas with each other but the sniping that goes on between disciplines (barefoot vs. shod, etc.) really doesn't help anyone. There is no one way for any horse. If we could all be open minded enough to learn from each other it would be more helpful for the horses. After all, none of us know it all. I spent alot of money on my navicular mare and used an "expert", who happens to be a part of the upcoming conference this site advertises. There were no answers for my mare which proves there is not a singular prescription for navicular, or so called navicular. After reading as much info. as I could it's even a mis-diagnosed condition often times...so if the diagnoses can't even be 100%, then the treatment can't be either. My common sense makes me question how nailing a metal shoe onto my mares already painful foot, which will constrict her foot even further and limit circulation would benefit her in the long haul, let alone the immediacy of her condition. Perhaps a period of barefoot would've helped some healing take place and then she could have been evaluated for the next step...whether shod or not. I understand that some horses appear to be helped by shoes...although we all know that the long term outcome for navicular horses is not good. Therefore, maybe we need a different approach, current and future research will certainly help, but so will questioning the way we've always done things.......and be open to new idea's.

[calshoer]

Patty, with all due respect, this site is useful to share ideas with each other but the sniping that goes on between disciplines (barefoot vs. shod, etc.) really doesn't help anyone
I 'Snipe" at folks who insist that shoes are bad all the time and suggest pulling the shoes on just about every case that comes through here AND send just about everyone to THEIR website.
This IS a FARRIER"S helping horse owners bulletin board after all.
I won't even get into the shoes hurt the feet bunk. It has been hashed over for years alreadyon various bulletin boards including here. Besides farriers are NOT ALLOWED into the BAREFOOT sites to criticise barefooting everything, ARE THEY? .They get BANNED. The site owners must be afraid some farrier might go to their site and (OHMYGOD) recommend shoes.
BAD shoeing hurts feet. GOOD shoeing can actually SPEED HEALING,fix the problem FASTER and keep the horse in use and most important pain free in the process. Horses in the shoes I put on do NOT contract, (in fact they de-contract) and grow lots of good healthy foot between shoeings which means the have good circulation. And any good farrier will recomend barefoot WHEN it is the best thing for a certain horse. It isn't sometimes.
Now if the anti shoe promoters would quit coming into a HORSESHOES forum saying that shoes are so bad and quit promoting their websites in a FARRIER and hoofcare forum I will be nicer. Maybe.
PS given the 'before and after' pictures of more than one horse in more than one barefoot website, people should have gone to jail for ruining some horses feet. Some of it is criminal. Those horses should have been in the hands of a GOOD farrier.
Oh and PS navicular is NOT always a guaranteed bad outcome. I know plenty of horses who were diagnosed with navicular bone changes and sometimes diagnosed impar ligament damage (X-rays ,ultrasound) and ongoing pain who had been pretty much written off who, with the right *change* in the SHOEING got pain free and back to work. Certainly the previous shoes were not covering up anything because the horse was still lame in them, , and the new shoes did not cover up anyhing either.The new shoeing fixed the improper mechanics that were behind the problem in the first place.
It is the barefooters who are not open to learning. I have had a quarter century to learn. And I DO barefoot a lot of horses whenever possible.
I just know from having A LOT MORE experience that there are sometimes better alternatives than barefoot to heal a problem.
Patty

[caballus]

Now if the anti shoe promoters would quit coming into a HORSESHOES forum saying that shoes are so bad and quit promoting their websites in a FARRIER and hoofcare forum I will be nicer. Maybe.

We all make choices.

It is quite apparent that many here resent those who have chosen to go a different path than farriery in order to help the horse. The name of this board is "The Farrier & Hoofcare Resource Center" ... notice the "& Hoofcare" ... the alternative to "horseshoes" is "barefoot" but I would say that falls under "Hoofcare". Other forums are specialized to a specific treatment protocal. People who are encountering issues with their horses' hooves are seeking advice here. They have the right to be informed and to make their own choices. As you pointed out, Joan, there is no one simple answer. Horse owners have the responsibility to seek out appropriate treatment when their horses face a lameness issue or disease. Appropriate being defined as something that is suitable for a particular person or place or condition etc. Thankfully, those who frequent this board are still allowed the freedom to make a choice. As well, those specializing in one treatment or another have the opportunity to offer the information concerning that treatment here on this forum under the general title of "Hoofcare". This gives the reader options. One cannot make an fully educated or appropriate choice without learning the available options that are afforded to him/her.

People also have the choice to make their web forums private or public and targeted to a specific audience or not. Given the title of this forum (farrier and HOOFCARE ...), this leaves the options open so people can learn what choices they have with regard to the health, well-being and treatment of their own horses.

However, when people choose to personally attack those who have an alternative option that may be appropriate for the reader, then they also are exhibiting his or her own desire to limit the reader's choices to his or her own agenda.

What is the real focus of this board? To be strictly a forum that targets only specific treatments with shoes for the care of horses' hooves - or to be a library of information for horse owners to seek out their own appropriate care and treatment for their own horses that includes "hoofcare" involving methods of care that do not use shoes?

Inquiring minds want to know. Until the door of this forum is closed to options for hoofcare treatments other than shoes, those who are willing to share of their time and expertise in alternative treatments will continue to frequent this board and offer other viable options. I'm sure that if the forum closes to those who offer differentiating treatments for *hoofcare* then those people will leave (or be locked out) of the forum. Until then, why limit the educational information for those readers who are seeking more information?

To keep within the OP's topic ... there are some who have experienced successful treatments of "hopeless" Navicular with treatments that did not involve applying horse shoes. When all other options are not working, perhaps this one might for the particular horse and, if executed, cause the horse to return to health and soundness. That IS the purpose of this forum, is it not? Is that not the ultimate goal for all of us here? The OP was directed to a site with just one story of many about the alternative barefoot care of Navicular horses. Perhaps the OP will be encouraged to explore that option, perhaps not. At least that option is out there for her to make the choice that is appropriate for her and her own horse.

--Gwen

[Gary_Miller]

The problem I have with the people advicating total barefoot is they always say that the shoe is the problem. Which is a false statement. In my process of learning farrier science I have taken alot of time reading/studying the diffrent techneques and methods. This include barefoot trim to NB shoeing.

What I have found is the barefoot only advicates always state that the shoe is the problem. But when you study the case studies they show on their sites, the real under laying factor is the horse is ether overdue for a reshoe job which would include a proper trim, or if already bare foot are overdue for a trim.

But the bare foot advicat always says. I'm just parphasing here, "We pulled the shoe, brought the heels back to their proper place and balanced the hoof. Then we turned the horse out and he took of bucking, kicking and farting. Really happy to have his shoes gone."

My question is this. What horse would not go off doiong all those things once a proper balanced trim is completed? Shod or unshod. Unless the job was a poor job then it not the shoe that caused the problem but the but the person doing the job.

Then we hear turn the horse out 24/7. This here is a no brainer. What horse shod or unshod would not benifit from being turned oout 24/7 where they can strech, roll, lay in the sun, and just move around freely.

So Gwen I have no problem with a horse being barefoot. But I do have a problem with all the far fecheted, untruth, so called case studies presented to inisent, unknowing, and nieve horse owners. Stating that the shoes were the problem when you know that the real problem was the lack of a proper balanced trim.

So Joan now you see why there is so much sniping that goes on between disciplines (barefoot vs. shod, etc.) because the barefoot advicates don't tell the whole story.


Gary

[caballus]

Gary ... your blanket statement about barefoot advocates ... "always say that the shoe is the problem" is erroneous. You are stating what *you* feel is being said when, perhaps, you're not hearing what really IS being said. Because you have misquoted me from the text to which you were referring, let me quote exactly what is written ...

"After getting the fronts done, we took a wee break and allowed Ish to move around the indoor. As soon as we released him from the lead he tossed his head, let out a buck and rear and took off! He strode out with unbelieve tracking and float - with absolutely not a hint of lameness! He trotted in small circles, he trotted in big circles, he cantered and galloped in both small and large circles. He reared, he bucked, he tossed his head around as if to say YA HOO!!!! He spent about 10 minutes just yahoo-ing it around then settled down to a nice, long strided, relaxed walk. His rear end had loosened up and un-bunched. he wrinkled brow had disappeared. His owner broke down into tears saying she had never before seen him move so freely. "

I stated factual happenings with the exception of the "YA HOO!!!!" ... obviously that was a blatant personification.

You *chose* to put the words, "Really happy to have his shoes gone." ... that is how YOU interpreted the writing when, in fact, nowhere were shoes or no shoes even mentioned. This IS how the horse reacted - fact (with witnesses). Was it because he was out of shoes? Does he really KNOW he was out of shoes? Methinks it was probably more to the fact that his feet were no longer in pain due to them being properly balanced with pressure points removed and strains and stressors removed, as well. aka ... due to the fact they were properly trimmed.

What horse would not go off doiong all those things once a proper balanced trim is completed? Shod or unshod. Unless the job was a poor job then it not the shoe that caused the problem but the but the person doing the job.

Absolutely agree 100% with you. So I guess my next question would be, WHY would a horse NEED shoes if sound and performing to its ultimate without shoes?

So Gwen I have no problem with a horse being barefoot. But I do have a problem with all the far fecheted, untruth, so called case studies presented to inisent, unknowing, and nieve horse owners. Stating that the shoes were the problem when you know that the real problem was the lack of a proper balanced trim.

OK, well, then I'm guessing you're not addressing this statement to me as I never stated that the "shoes" were the problem. In addition to this, the testimony to which I referred is 100% true and do***ented. Vets, Chiropractors AND farriers. As well as those who know/knew the horse both prior to "barefoot" and afterwards.

So Joan now you see why there is so much sniping that goes on between disciplines (barefoot vs. shod, etc.) because the barefoot advicates don't tell the whole story

Not even going to address this. It's a moot statement as its based on your personal interpretation of what you read (or don't read or read between the lines).

--Gwen

[Gary_Miller]

Gary ... your blanket statement about barefoot advocates ... "always say that the shoe is the problem" is erroneous. You are stating what *you* feel is being said when, perhaps, you're not hearing what really IS being said. Because you have misquoted me from the text to which you were referring.
My statement was a blanket statement pharphased from many web sites and articals on keeping the horse barefoot. I in now way was refering specificly to your link on ISH. Though I do think you insinuated that the shoeing was part of the problem.

Your web site also has other articals or statements that insinuate that the shoe is the real problem. For example. One such artical I went to from your own web site. It can be found under Vetrinary Letters and Notes, you know the one, Breaking Traditions: A Veterinary Medical and Ethical Perspective On the Modern Day Usage of Steel Horseshoes, byTomas G. Teskey, D.V.M. Hereford, AZ, U.S.A.

As far as I'm conserned if its on your web site then you have indorsed it and it as good as if you said it.

So I guess my next question would be, WHY would a horse NEED shoes if sound and performing to its ultimate without shoes?
Don't disagree here, except I have ridden and still do in places and on surfaces where the horse could not of stayed sound if it were not for the shoes.

OK, well, then I'm guessing you're not addressing this statement to me as I never stated that the "shoes" were the problem. In addition to this, the testimony to which I referred is 100% true and do***ented. Vets, Chiropractors AND farriers. As well as those who know/knew the horse both prior to "barefoot" and afterwards.
Let see from your own statement from your own web site, "As founder of PENZANCE and a Natural Horsemanship Trainer and Practitioner I feel strongly that the horse should be allowed to be a horse. This includes un-shod hooves. There are many reasons that support my views and many horsemen throughout the world who are coming to realize the inherent damages to the hooves caused by iron shoes."
And as stated above if its linked through your site then you must believe it, and it as good as if you said it.
After all you have never disbuted it.

Not even going to address this. It's a moot statement as its based on your personal interpretation of what you read (or don't read or read between the lines).
I read for comprehension and understanding. Then I form my own interpretation like everyone else. Most of the time I'm right in my understanding.

Gary

[caballus]

inherent damages to the hooves caused by iron shoes

Yes, there *are* damages to hooves caused by shoes ... and damages that have been well do***ented from expert researchers. But, I have to admit that I need to change that statement (thank you for bringing it to my attention) to read, also, that the mechanical failure of hooves is more directly related to the malformation of the hooves, themselves, caused from inappropriate management of the form to function of the trim prior to the administration of shoes to the hooves. In other words, bad trimming prior to putting the shoes on the hooves. So, I will amend that statement that I wrote when I first developed the website.

However, that being said, I do maintain that shoes interfere with proper circulation in the hooves due to improper functioning of the hooves while wearing iron/steel/aluminum/metal shoes. A hoof simply cannot function 'naturally' in shoes with nails through the hoof wall. A shod hoof still receives more concussive shock through the foot/bone/leg than an unshod hoof. A shod hoof still cannot feel the ground as sensitively as an unshod hoof. I will say, also, based on my personal observations that MOST shod hooves do not allow for proper frog contact with the ground which, in turn, negatively affects the shock dissipation and functioning of the frog and DC ... etc. etc.

Those are facts. Those are non-negotiable. Not anyone's opinion or feelings.

Again, however, are we (those with positive bare hoof experiences) not to share what might be a viable alternative for a horse owner seeking out information that may improve or save a horses's health?

Perhaps, in the same light that you have a problem with people who tout barefoot horses, there are those who believe more strongly in "barefoot horses" who have problems with farriers who automatically dismiss that removing the shoes just might help the horse and "always say that the (bare foot) is the problem.

WHY cannot the hoof care professionals get together and really discuss what might be BEST for the HORSE? And, once again, who is going to decide what's best? The horse ... the horse, always the horse. Not you, not me, not anyone else ... the horse is the final answer.

--Gwen

[Rick Burten]

Someone(not I) with a more objective view, might point out that regardless of the title of this site, the forums are titled " Farriers helping.......", not "alternative/barefoot hoofcare providers helping"....., or "Farriers and alternative hoofcare/barefoot providers helping......."

Now before anyone starts with the "yeah buts...", Veterinarians have been welcomed to this site and , rather magnamioiusly, Baron has allowed the BUA proponents to contribute on this site. All that aside, farriers are not offering links to agendized, one way(barefoot) only locations, and it would be, IMNTBCHO, polite and proper, if the BUA refrained from doing that, too.

As others have pointed out, this site has welcomed the opinions of non-farriers (veterinarians, excepted) and those individuals should at least respect the general tone and tenor of this site by not referring others to their sites or sites that promote only one way of providing hoofcare(i.e.: barefoot).

Absent that, perhaps Baron, during his regular review of current postings should just edit out said references.

Rick (who is, a proud member of the only group of individuals who are able to provide full care hoofcare to the horse and mule(and related species) industry. THE FARRIER.

[Gary_Miller]

Subject on barefootness being moved to fourm:

Farriers Helping Farriers: General Discussion Fourm

Thread title: The "Barefoot" experience

You all be nice now as I'm out for and education and not a fight.

Reason for move to keep the integrity of this thread which is about pads.


Gary

[Horse angle]

I am very sorry to have started all of this.. Patty here are the pictures. I feel so bad to have started all of this. All i wanted was to help my horse. Bye the way he is doing much better.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/Carolyn492/IM001829.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/Carolyn492/IM001830.jpg

[calshoer]

Well it is a decent standard shoeing job but I have not seen a pad quite like that .
If *I* were doing the horse, looking at it from a natural balance perspective, the heels would be trimmed off more, and the whole shoe set back further. The way I looks now his "footprint" (the shoe) is too far forward relative to the bones. Removing heel then moving the shoe back moves the whole "footprint" under the leg better.
Bringing the heels down brings the base of support further rearward. it alsop removes the poissibility that the heels are sore,from bruising internally, a seperate isue from the navicular bone. That ,combined with moving the point of breakover (the front of the shoe) rearward, reduces stress on all the tissues around the navicular bone, and the bone itself. (its very complicated)
If the hoof angles (inside) are too low after the heels are trimmed back/down, a wedge pad can be employed to line things up. I think this horses issue is not so much the pad at all, but a hoof balance issue creating lack of support in the heels and leverage internally from the foot running forward. The foot is a bit run forward to begin with then as he grows ,everything runs even more forward, incresing the streses on the navicular area. he may have some secondary heel pain too, from the heels being left too long in the honest attempt to get the angles up.

Patty

[Horse angle]

Yes i agree that the toe is too long. And so does my farrier. When he did the shoeing he put wedge pads since his heals dont grow(that was my idea) Hugo started to limp like a mad man. He was almost falling face at first it was horrible. So after 5 days he just happened to be at the ranch and pulled Hugo out of his stall and put flat pads on him. He did all this for free. He did not trim the toe since Hugo could not stand being bare foot in the ally. The minute he put the flat pads on Hugo seemed much better and walked with only a little pull. I have to say that today he is not limping at all. Yes Hugo's toe grows really fast. The picture i took is about 3 weeks of growth. in an other 3 weeks it will be horrible. It seems like only the toe grows and the heal stays put. He seems to have heals on the picture but honestly he does not at all i guess its because of the pad that is .250" thick.

[calshoer]

I think you missed the point. It is not the TOE that is too long ....it is the HEELS.
The misguided attempt to grow more heel is driving the toe forward. Stretching it.The toe is not growing to fast it (along with the end of the sole) is getting pushed forward.
SHORT heels are healthiest. Keeping them trimmed down to the level of the sole is better than allowing them to grow beyond it.
The whole problem is stemming from *too much* heel. Unfortunetely horse owners are often behind the problem because they see a low hel. do not understand it is a LONG underrun hel and then insist that the farrier "allow the heels to grow more" when the heels really need trimming.
A reason that these horses sometimes get more sore after wedge pads ,or egg bar,or wedge shoes are applied to "low" heels is because the heels are not short and low, but are LONG and low. They get underrun and LOOK low but they are LONG . Then the wedge only smashes them forward more. Causing heel pain.
Hope that makes sense.
Patty
Patty

[Horse angle]

Yes it does.. IT makes alot of sense. I will ask my farrier to trim the heel more and push back the shoe. I he is very open to advise. That is why i like him. If you want to try something that is logical well he tryes it.

Thanks a million for all your help.
Carolyn