What's really going on here?

[Jack Roth]

Hello Everybody:

I am a private horseshoeing school owner and I am now as embroiled in this brouhaha going on within our organization many of you are.

I am utterly baffled by the events now taking place and the impassioned arguments being thrown by each side against the other.

I really do suspect that the Special Task Force, mainly Craig, Walt, Bill, Gene, Mitch,and supported by Brian have the best interests of our craft at heart, though their methodology seems suspect to us on the receiving end of all of this vituperation.

The task force never should have been secret and I suspect that they see this now because the wrath of so many horseshoers seems to be pouring down on their heads for having tried to do this in secret. Further, they have apologized for this and I have to take them at their word about the apology.

From my standpoint though, I am utterly baffled for the following reasons:
1) The task force never did contact me to ask what I do here and why I do it as I do. They might have been surprised to learn that 32 years of experience teaching horseshoeing has taught me some valuable lessons about farrier education. Lessons which one would never suspect if he hadn't taught for so long.
2) They never visited here to see the work of my students. Actually, I think they would have been pleasantly surprised at the quality of work we produce here.
3) They talk about the overabundance of lame horses who have been crippled by poorly trained farriers. Now we have something like 2000 horses in our book and we don't have many quicked horses (I know, one is too many, but don't we all stick one once in a while). Specifically, we see around one quicked horse every two months and the horse gets over it quickly after removing the offending nail. I have never seen a horse who was quicked by ANY horseshoer who stayed lame over a month.
Please think about that for a minute. We shoe an average of 12 horses per day six days a week and have a lame horse about once in two months. That is about one in 500, and as I said, the horse gets over it quickly. Isn't that the rough equivalent of a professional farrier quicking a horse twice a year.
4) Most of all,, the specific arguments put forth by the special task force do not seem to be speaking to us, but rather talking past us. As though they have their minds made up alreaddy and they are determined to push through and impliment a plan which I suspect will grieve us all. Now I am not saying this is true, this is just how it looks to me from the receiving end.

Personally, I just hope this silliness has not already gone too far. I for one would really like to try to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

If anyone chooses to answer me by personal email I will very likely post his comments here and reply the best I can.

[J.H. shoeing]

Jack

I don't think they were talking about a hot nail when references were to horses being crippled by poorly trained Farriers. I think that they were talking about poor shoeing in general ie: poor trim, poor shoe shape, poor balance.

I also agree that we can put this all back together. I also think that our profession will excel and our best days are ahead of us.

I had some of my customers ask if the horseshoeing schools had a stanardized curriculum or if they were accredited.

What are your thoughts on a standardized curriculum or accreditation of horseshoeing schools?

Jeff

[Dave Purves]

Hello Jack, I graduated from your school about 9 years ago. Wasn't too bad. I do however feel like 12 weeks wasn't enough. Let me clarify that, In 12 weeks, I learned to shape a shoe, make a shoe, pull clips, and basic anatomy. What I didn't learn, was why. Why do we shape shoes this way, why do we use eggbars for this, what would work instead of eggbars, why does the horse move this way, how can I change it? These are things that seem a little more advanced, but I think it falls into the catagory of "basic", when you are out there charging money for your services. We all run into situations that we've never seen, haven't heard of or just plain don't know, but in the begining too many people are "guessing", and "guessing" wrong. I don't know about you, but I've never called a plumber out to the house, and had him or her say, I don't know, let me call my competitor and see if he knows. Cause the next time, I'll just call the competitor. Plumbers, electricians, doctors, lawyers, accountants, and countless other professions have educational standards that must be met before you go out and start charging money, why don't farriers?
Dave

[ray steele]

Dave,

Maybe you've been one lucky sob, but while I've never had a plumber call his competetor to get an answer on how to unclog a drain, I know that , from personnal(sp) experience I've had MDs call other MDs and health care practicioners and go to the books when they are baffaled. And I'm glad they do! Instead of trying to BS their way thru.

So with that I'd like to know,What's your point????

Regards

Ray Steele

[R.Revilinski]

I Have been reading all of the stuff posted here and on other websites I have also talked to many farriers members and non members.

I would like to take this time to say that the AFA leadership needs to go!!

The schools it seems have blown it, they have slapped Walt Taylors hands again when they should have seriously kicked his butt!!

The people that are in charge of the AFA have shown a total disregard for the the members, they have shown contempt for non members, they have proven time and time again that they are not to be trusted Walt has laid out his plan too take over the AFA and the farrier industry call it what you want, Walts manifesto, Walts thoughts or a white paper do***ent, it s **** and smells like ****!!

Now the Elite Club and there political spinmaster want to cut the Board of Directors, it only makes sense 10 or 15 people are easier to control than 50!!

This will kill your voting power your ballot will be worthless!!

Right know is the time for rank and file members to stand up and be heard!!

CONTACT YOUR BOARD MEMBER AND LET THEM KNOW YOU WANT THIS STOPPED NOW!!

CONTACT THE AFA OFFICE AND DEMAND THE RESIGNATION OF THE EC!!

IN OMAHA BE HEARD AND GET THIS BUNCH OF LYING VIPERS OUT OF POWER NOW!!

Right now as we are sitting here endlessly debating an issue that should never have even seen the light of day our ED is in England working with the UK registrar to help set Walts little plan in motion.

If we do not stop this thier will be no AFA and the shoeing business wil start a downward spiral that will be near impossible to stop!!

Help keep this industry a free and independant industry run by free and independent people!!

[J.H. shoeing]

Jack

I got your private message. I think you have misundestood me in myprevious post. I don't want to to discuss poor shoeing. I was just giving my observations of what I thought.

But I did have a couple of questions.

What are your thoughts on a standardized curriculum or accreditation of horseshoeing schools?


If anyone chooses to answer me by personal email I will very likely post his comments here and reply the best I can.

This was the last sentence of your original post. I would just assume keep all this out in the open.



Hello Jeff:

I find it difficult to discuss poor shoeing through the mail.
Reason is that so often I think I am having a discussion about shoeing with another farrier and I think we are reading from the same sheet of music.
But then later, when I see his work I see that we were obviously not.
For this reason I try to confine my discussions on horseshoeing with seasoned horseshoers to instances when the horse is actually standing there. In this way we can actually see what each other is talking about and what he means.
Therefore I am afraid I will have to defer this discussion to a timee when we are both in the same shop and can see andd/or work on the same horses.
From my limited point of view I have seen plenty of poorly shod horses (my opinion) done by guys who are generally considered to be good horseshoers, and plenty of really good work done by recnt graduates.
I repeat though, quality of horseshoeing is ddifficult for us to discuss without the horse in front of us.




Jeff

[Phil Armitage]

Hello Jack, I graduated from your school about 9 years ago. Wasn't too bad. I do however feel like 12 weeks wasn't enough. Let me clarify that, In 12 weeks, I learned to shape a shoe, make a shoe, pull clips, and basic anatomy. What I didn't learn, was why. Why do we shape shoes this way, why do we use eggbars for this, what would work instead of eggbars, why does the horse move this way, how can I change it? These are things that seem a little more advanced, but I think it falls into the catagory of "basic", when you are out there charging money for your services. We all run into situations that we've never seen, haven't heard of or just plain don't know, but in the begining too many people are "guessing", and "guessing" wrong. I don't know about you, but I've never called a plumber out to the house, and had him or her say, I don't know, let me call my competitor and see if he knows. Cause the next time, I'll just call the competitor. Plumbers, electricians, doctors, lawyers, accountants, and countless other professions have educational standards that must be met before you go out and start charging money, why don't farriers?
Dave

Dave I do not get your point either, you sound resentfull. It sounds like your expectations at the time and still are unreasonable. I am sure you could have called your teacher to get more information as you ran into them. This is called OJT and continuous improvement, there is only so much students can take in and there comes a point when we must do it and learn as we do. Apparently Jack did a good job, your buisy, chargeing top dollar like you claim on other threads, certified and have survived the stastics that most farriers quit the trade after a couple of years. All you can say to Jack is "Not Bad". What would be considered well done in your opinion? Would a school be considered good if the instruction was extremely advanced however all there farriers never made it? I think Jack has a valid point when he says it took him years to find the right method and balance of what and how to teach. I also think the AFA should be approaching him and gaining a better understanding of what he and other schools have learned over the years.

[Forgewizard]

Heck,
Even Doctors and Veterinarians are licensed to only "practice"- aparently even THEY never get it all learned! :D

I've always considered that the more I learn, the more I learn I didn't know! This profession is one that teaches us something new every day( as long as we remain open to new ideas).

Any school or educatin gives the basocs only- it is upto the student to delve further and learn more and expand their education. Some students are content to coast through, others have an insatiable curiosity and drive to excel, some learn just enough to get them graduated andonce in business figure that's all they need to know.

This is true for ANY profession! I am sure we all remember teachers that went out of their way to get a student to understand, as well as teachers that taught the curriculum straight from the text book. We all know doctors who know general health issues and doctors who are specialists. These folks (like anyone else) only progress as far as they want to.

Does that make it the educators responsibility to instill enthusiasm or high personal achievement? Certainly not! Those goals are up to the individual! The individual decides whether or not to go that extra mile. It is up to the public to determine whether that professional is up to their standards or not. ONly when the public knows excatly what they need or want will the professional of that calibre get hired.

[Dave Purves]

Dave I do not get your point either, you sound resentfull. It sounds like your expectations at the time and still are unreasonable. I am sure you could have called your teacher to get more information as you ran into them. This is called OJT and continuous improvement, there is only so much students can take in and there comes a point when we must do it and learn as we do. Apparently Jack did a good job, your buisy, chargeing top dollar like you claim on other threads, certified and have survived the stastics that most farriers quit the trade after a couple of years. All you can say to Jack is "Not Bad". What would be considered well done in your opinion? Would a school be considered good if the instruction was extremely advanced however all there farriers never made it? I think Jack has a valid point when he says it took him years to find the right method and balance of what and how to teach. I also think the AFA should be approaching him and gaining a better understanding of what he and other schools have learned over the years.


My point is too many young farriers don't know much if anything. I didn't, the reason I'm where I'm at today, is practice, reading, and going down the certification road. The biggest reason I'm where I am is the help of other farriers, riding with people that were doing what I wanted to be doing. Learning their business skills, learning how to assess the horse before just picking up the foot and nailing on a shoe.
Are you seriously going to tell me that someone taking a 2,6,8,or 12 week course is ready to tackle this job? Maybe you forget how much you didn't know in the begining. Or maybe you knew it all to start with. I know I got a basic knowledge of what the tools were, and how to use them, I knew where the coffin bone was, and I knew what to do with the nails. Other than that I was clueless. And thanks to the help of other farriers that were willing to help me in the begining I grew. Did your school offer you a basic understanding of reading x-rays? I don't care if you can diagnose, but understand which bone is which, how to differentiate between a shadow, and problem? If you ask me that should be basic stuff.

Ray, to answer your question, this business is hard enough to break into, without having to call in someone else with rather "simple" problems. It's hard to gain credibility and respect, when you call someone else to help. I'm speaking from experience right now, a new guy that is in way over his head, and has lamed up about 7 horses due to a lack of general knowledge is begging for help, I've helped him as much as I can, the horses are doing better, but the clients don't want him back, what do I do? I don't want to take his clients, but he can't handle them, and the clients don't trust him.
A little more education and this wouldn't be the case, a little better understnading of the why's and what for's, and he wouldn't be in this position.
Dave

[Jack Roth]

Howdy Folks: I will try to answer your replies.

Jeff: I am absolutely in favor of a standardized curriculum. So are many others, and we are currently working on it.
I suspect the biggest hurdle we will have to overcome will be the various artistic interpretations of the standards we agree to.
Just a for instance: Where is the widest part of the reasonably normal hoof (and shoe)?
Is it halfway down (or up) the longitudinal axis of the plantar surfacee of the hoof, or is it at the quarters. For me I would say quarters, but look at the AFA standard and the widest part of the hoof seems to bisect the longitudinal axis.
Now let me tell you a funny story on Craig Trnka, our president. I was an avid viewer of a demonstration he did in Tennessee. Beautiful horseshoeing, absolutely beautiful. Then another party asked him to make a normal front and normal hind foot shape on a couple of keg shoes. End result was nothing like the work he did on the horses. Go figure.
So you see, this is why I think such discussions are best held in the presence of Mr. Horse.

Dave: Long time no see. Forgive me for saying this, but best I can tell you are mad at me. I surmisee this from your post and several others I have seen over the years. Whatever I have done to offend you, I promise, I didn't mean it.
The things you said we didn't teach, we did teach - and you know it. Elsewise you would not have enjoyed the success you have as a horseshoer. I do realize that you must have come a long ways since graduating from Oklahoma Horseshoeing School, but that was the original plan. I am fond of telling students that graduation day is not the day your education ends, it is the day your education begins.
I just wish you would drop in some day to review what we teach here. No charge.

Ray: Thank you.

R. Revilinsky: The current leadership has certainly given us the ammunition. Personally though my course of action will be t work towardd a reconciliation. There will be a mid year meeting next month and we'll see what comes of that. I don't want to see the AFA hurt by this. Most of what you have suggested are the normal political options which are open to us if we can't straighten out this mess.
I am almost where you ar in my thinking - I just wish they would move a little - quite a little - and try to reconcile.

Jeff (again): You are absolutely right - out in the open. I am only computer semi-literate and had not yet figured out how replies workk. Gt it figured out now.

Phil: Thank you.

Forgewizard: Thank you.

[Dave Purves]

Howdy Folks: I will try to answer your replies.


Dave: Long time no see. Forgive me for saying this, but best I can tell you are mad at me. I surmisee this from your post and several others I have seen over the years. Whatever I have done to offend you, I promise, I didn't mean it.
The things you said we didn't teach, we did teach - and you know it. Elsewise you would not have enjoyed the success you have as a horseshoer. I do realize that you must have come a long ways since graduating from Oklahoma Horseshoeing School, but that was the original plan. I am fond of telling students that graduation day is not the day your education ends, it is the day your education begins.
I just wish you would drop in some day to review what we teach here. No charge.

.

Jack, I didn't mean to imply that I'm mad at anyone, certainly not you. I'm not mad at anyone, I feel very fortunate to be doing what I'm doing everyday. I'm only home right now cause my son is sick, (where else can you call in sick when your kids are sick?) If the things I mentioned where taught, they were just touched on. And maybe my retention of these things was bad. But I do believe the education should be more in depth. I don't remember ever really looking over any x-rays. And I know for sure no one taught me how to evaluate a horse in motion. I'm not blaming you Jack, I haven't heard of any school that goes that in depth. Again I'm not blaming you personally, I think the entire educational system needs an update, instead of 12 weeks, why not 12 months? Why not incorporate "real" business classes? I'm not saying that certification standards are appropriate, but some type of "graduation" final exam. How about setting up, or helping students with apprenticeships? I would love to have a helper, if I know that when he or she arrives, they can keep up. I think that standardizing the educational system, and possibly making it "harder" would weed out many of the part-time, semi-retired, doing this for mad money don't pay taxes, won't charge more than $15 shoers out. This would be good for the profession as a whole. Most of the imcompetence would be gone, prices would be more reasonable, and owners, vets, and other equine professionals would be more apt to treat us as equals, instead of just "blacksmiths". There are too many farriers out there that simply went to a two week school somewhere and then hung their shingle, not knowing the harm they are doing to the horse, and the business.
I'd love to come back to the school and take a look. Next time in OK. I'll stop by.
Dave
again, I'm sorry if you feel like I'm mad or upset at you personally, I'm not, I would just like to see the educaional system take a big step in helping make our profession better.

[Jack Roth]

Hi Dave:
Let me run a few things by you and see if they make sense to you.
Some folks in our business like to believe that for a school owner profit comes first and students don't count for much. Now I am not saying you, I'm just saying "some folks".
I do not remember precisely what year you came to school here; but if I call it 2000 I shoulddn't be off by more than a year. You are slightly taller than I, so maybe 5'7" or 5'8". You were in your early tweenties, lighter complected than I, and you had a small moustache when you attended school. I am telling you this only to makke my point that every student matters - and the student really is more important than the tuition.
Let me go on a little bit about education. Any differences you and I may have had would have been caused by our different approaches to education. You like to learn first in your mind, and then try to transfer that knowledge to your hands; whereas I preferr to teach the hands first and then transfer that knowledge to the mind. Today I have associate instructors here who teach either way. Please keep in mind though that we are learning a craft here, so teaching the hands first is absolutely valid and is effective with most students.
Next point: You feel that you would have been better prepared if you went to a longer course. As a teacher I tell you that you couldn't have been better prepared. You (you personally, not everybody) had learned all that you would agree to learn before going out on your own. So you learned as many do. You got all the education you would agree to accept at that time and then took plenty of CE to improve yourself. If you had stayed here another 3 or 6 or 9 months you would have hated it, maybe become a little faster, but you would not have learned much more in any length of time in school. No problem. That is how you learn and there is nothing wrong with that.
Now about your other points:
Standardize the education system. Absolutely; and we are finally working on that now.
Make it harder: I don't know. That wouldn't have worked iin your case just as it wouldn't have worked in my case when I was a student. Besides, it really was harder for those who wouldd accept it when you were here. Don't you remember how many students we had putting on fullered handmades in 12 weeks. And I don't mean as a "wow, gee whiz" I mean as an every day part of their learning.
Let me make one more point before I quit. The quality of the student - how much he learns and how well he learns - does not relate well to the kind of horseshoer he becomes. Some of my very best students did not turn out to be very good horseshoers; and some of my more ordinary students have turned out to be great horseshoers. Of course it also works the other way, but my point is that how well a student learns in school absolutely does not determine how good a horseshoer he will become. In the final analysis the student will determine that for himself after he leaves school.

[ray steele]

[

Ray, to answer your question, this business is hard enough to break into, without having to call in someone else with rather "simple" problems. It's hard to gain credibility and respect, when you call someone else to help. I'm speaking from experience right now, a new guy that is in way over his head, and has lamed up about 7 horses due to a lack of general knowledge is begging for help, I've helped him as much as I can, the horses are doing better, but the clients don't want him back, what do I do? I don't want to take his clients, but he can't handle them, and the clients don't trust him.
A little more education and this wouldn't be the case, a little better understnading of the why's and what for's, and he wouldn't be in this position.
Dave[/QUOTE]

Dave,

Maybe I don't understand, I've never had a problem calling and asking for help, I figure the worst that can happen is that the person I'm asking will say no. On one hand if the person calling is over his head, he ,I feel ,needs to learn that, if on the other hand he is looking for confirmation or another point of view he may be looking to learn from your knowledge, as you, I suspect do with Jaye. The understanding of the why's and what for's comes with time if you are the type to look for it.

To me the great thing about this trade as it stands is how the supposed ill educated horseowner/client, does not want a farrier of this quality back, they must know something! In this trade you either do the quality of work required or someone else will. I think it's like that in most supply and demand situations.

From what you have written, it's not a matter of you not wanting to take his clients, you have a full book ,so you couldn't take them.

In your response to Jack, you stated, something to the effect , instead of 12 weeks,why not 12 months. I guess someone could make an argument for 12 years. I would suggest to you, if you feel that that time period was too short ,you were free to sign up for more education in the structured setting of a program, any program,Jacks , Cornell or any other etc.. You didn't.

New farriers ,I feel have to make those same decisions for themselves today.
To me it's like shoeing a horse, everyone is different,and may require a different approach.

Ain't it great that we're all different.

Regards

Ray Steele

[Phil Armitage]

Hey Jack, I would like to add to your teaching philosophy "to teach the hands first and then transfer that knowledge to the mind." I personaly think it is a great way to teach and a great way to learn. Maybe I like it because it works for me, however I can see that it is an affective teaching tool that works for many people. This is exactly how my instructor taught us. It seemed pretty silly at first trimming plastic pipe everyday, but it shure beat learning how to handle your nippers and rasp under a liveing moveing 1000 pd running machine. He taught us the very basics with safety first, however after we learned how to use our bodys and hands first then we had more questions and the answers were more important. I also think we gain a better understanding of more advanced things after we learn the basics and see more horses. For example after I did a few hundred horses and then attended clinics I had a better idea of what the clinician and other farriers were talking about and could follow along better and I retained the information, did not need a note pad after awhile.

I use to train new recruits in the Air Force and found that I could teach them more after I had them do things, they had more questions and a better appreciation for learning more.

Dave I do not take for granted how difficult this trade is or undermind the knowledge and skills required. I never suggested that a school graduate is ready to take on the world and is a compitent farrier. Your comments come across as if your the only one that understands the complexity of the trade and the rest of us are ignorant to that fact. Has it ever occured to you that maybe it is just as difficult and challengeing to teach and learn this trade as it is doing it, teaching is a skill and it can be trial and error trying to figure out how each individual learns best, not to mention safety issues :eek: . The thing I like the most about this trade is the challenge and that we are never done learning. I am not sure how long a school should be, 4,6,8 or 12 weeks, I got bored after 6 weeks of a 8 week school and wanted to get under as many horses as I could as fast as I could. Drove my instructor nuts, so he taught me a lesson and had me do hind feet on a few 3 year olds, slowed my over zealous attitude down real quick :mad: . I also felt I was short changed after I qraduated and that I should have learned more, quess what, I found many farriers feel the same way. Maybe we feel this way because our teachers were succesfull in giveing us a good start and we did learn the basics and this opened our minds to learn more. Keep learning and I hope your attitude towards schools in this country changes to a more positive outlook. To be honest I see your negative comments on farrier schools following in stride with how certain individuals in the AFA leadership feel about schools in this country. Knock the current education system and your knocking our trade in general, every farrier out there. I see the recent attacks on farrier schools by the AFA as a slap in the face to all of us includeing AFA farriers. It shows a total lack of respect and understanding of what it takes to educate and the trade in general. I think we have free system that works pretty well and meets most of the demands of your buisy scociety. There will never be the perfect system and I bet many of the schools that have been teaching for many years have ironed out allot of wrinkles and problems that the AFA could benifit from if they would open there eyes and ears. Thats a choice the AFA needs to make.

[Dave Purves]

]Hi Dave:
Some folks in our business like to believe that for a school owner profit comes first and students don't count for much. Now I am not saying you, I'm just saying "some folks". [/COLOR] .

Your motivation doesn't matter to me really. If it's profit, or turning out the best farriers in the world. I believe they will go hand in hand most of the time.

.[/QUOTE]
I do not remember precisely what year you came to school here; but if I call it 2000 I shoulddn't be off by more than a year. .[/QUOTE]

early 1997

.[/QUOTE]You are slightly taller than I, so maybe 5'7" or 5'8". .[/QUOTE]

5'10"
.[/QUOTE]You were in your early tweenties, .[/QUOTE]

24 y.o.
,.[/QUOTE] and you had a small moustache .[/QUOTE]

still do

.[/QUOTE] I am telling you this only to makke my point that every student matters - and the student really is more important than the tuition..[/QUOTE]

I have no doubt, and didn't doubt it then.

[/QUOTE]
Any differences you and I may have had would have been caused by our different approaches to education. .[/QUOTE]

I didn't realize that we had any "differences". .

[/QUOTE]
You like to learn first in your mind, and then try to transfer that knowledge to your hands; whereas I preferr to teach the hands first and then transfer that knowledge to the mind. Today I have associate instructors here who teach either way. Please keep in mind though that we are learning a craft here, so teaching the hands first is absolutely valid and is effective with most students..[/QUOTE]

OK.

[/QUOTE]
Next point: You feel that you would have been better prepared if you went to a longer course. As a teacher I tell you that you couldn't have been better prepared. You (you personally, not everybody) had learned all that you would agree to learn before going out on your own. .[/QUOTE]

That's rather presumptuious. You presume to believe that you know what my learning curve is, or was. I learned what you taught me, no more, no less. I took the information I was given and ran with it, when I left your school. And if your memory will serve you right, I was one of those making the handmade fullered shoes.

.[/QUOTE]
If you had stayed here another 3 or 6 or 9 months you would have hated it, maybe become a little faster, but you would not have learned much more in any length of time in school. .[/QUOTE]

I don't know why I would've hated it. I rather enjoyed my time at school, I made some good friends that I still keep in touch with. .

[/QUOTE]
.
Now about your other points:
Standardize the education system. Absolutely; and we are finally working on that now..[/QUOTE]

I'm glad to hear it.
.
[/QUOTE]
Make it harder: I don't know. That wouldn't have worked iin your case just as it wouldn't have worked in my case when I was a student. Besides, it really was harder for those who wouldd accept it when you were here. Don't you remember how many students we had putting on fullered handmades in 12 weeks. And I don't mean as a "wow, gee whiz" I mean as an every day part of their learning..[/QUOTE]

Again, I don't know why you think it wouldn't have worked for me. Another presumption. And as stated before, maybe your memory doesn't serve you well, but I was one of those students applying handmade fullered shoes.

.[/QUOTE]
Let me make one more point before I quit. The quality of the student - how much he learns and how well he learns - does not relate well to the kind of horseshoer he becomes. Some of my very best students did not turn out to be very good horseshoers; and some of my more ordinary students have turned out to be great horseshoers. Of course it also works the other way, but my point is that how well a student learns in school absolutely does not determine how good a horseshoer he will become. In the final analysis the student will determine that for himself after he leaves school.[/QUOTE]

Agreed
Dave

[mikes_horseshoeing]

Hi Jack I would like to thank you and your staff for the 15 weeks I spent at OHC. In that 4 months I went out and shod with the instructors at night,no money just the experience. I feel I learned just as much shoeing at nite with them.At the school we had to make 14 different handmade shoes in order to pass the test for journeyman 1 I believe I scored pretty high and it was a journeyman 2 test and if you could explain why it may shine some light on some of these readers ,again thanks to you and your staff.Mike

[Dave Purves]

[

Ray, to answer your question, this business is hard enough to break into, without having to call in someone else with rather "simple" problems. It's hard to gain credibility and respect, when you call someone else to help. I'm speaking from experience right now, a new guy that is in way over his head, and has lamed up about 7 horses due to a lack of general knowledge is begging for help, I've helped him as much as I can, the horses are doing better, but the clients don't want him back, what do I do? I don't want to take his clients, but he can't handle them, and the clients don't trust him.
A little more education and this wouldn't be the case, a little better understnading of the why's and what for's, and he wouldn't be in this position.
Dave

Dave,

Maybe I don't understand, I've never had a problem calling and asking for help, I figure the worst that can happen is that the person I'm asking will say no. On one hand if the person calling is over his head, he ,I feel ,needs to learn that, if on the other hand he is looking for confirmation or another point of view he may be looking to learn from your knowledge, as you, I suspect do with Jaye. The understanding of the why's and what for's comes with time if you are the type to look for it..[/QUOTE]

I call Jaye, and ask for plenty advice. But at this point in my career, I can explain things to him so he understands what I'm asking, and he can tell me his opinion, and I can go apply it. The cases I'm working on now were caused by the farrier in question. (right handed farriers disease) he attended a two week school, in which he never even saw a forge. He was simply turned out in a pasture full of horses and cut loose. How does someone in that situation, turn out OK? He won't attend clinics, cause he's afraid someone might see how much he doesn't know.

[/QUOTE]
To me the great thing about this trade as it stands is how the supposed ill educated horseowner/client, does not want a farrier of this quality back, they must know something! In this trade you either do the quality of work required or someone else will. I think it's like that in most supply and demand situations. .[/QUOTE]

I agree, but I think improving the quality of education would go along way in helping to ease the growing pains. Let's face it. When we see or hear of another farrier, it's not like we can assume that we all have the same basic knowledge no matter how long we've been in the business
.

[/QUOTE]
In your response to Jack, you stated, something to the effect , instead of 12 weeks,why not 12 months. I guess someone could make an argument for 12 years. I would suggest to you, if you feel that that time period was too short ,you were free to sign up for more education in the structured setting of a program, any program,Jacks , Cornell or any other etc.. You didn't.
.[/QUOTE]

Quite right. I was lucky enough to have great mentors. Mentors that immediately got me involved in the AFA, clinics, and certification. How many other farriers out there are pushing clinics and certification? Not many. Look at the amount of farriers that show up to such things. Pretty small percentage.
.

[/QUOTE]
New farriers ,I feel have to make those same decisions for themselves today.
To me it's like shoeing a horse, everyone is different,and may require a different approach.

Ain't it great that we're all different.

Regards

Ray Steele[/QUOTE]

I agree, Ray. But I still believe that the schools could improve cirriculum and help our trade out immensely
Dave

[Dave Purves]

Dave I do not get your point either, you sound resentfull. .

I don't mean to sound resentful, and I don't mean any of this to be personal. I'm simply stating what I think is a downfall in our profession and that is the education most of us start out with. I would think Phil, with your belief in horsmanship skills, that maybe you would think some horsemanship classes would be helpful, why not add that in?


.[/QUOTE]It sounds like your expectations at the time and still are unreasonable. I am sure you could have called your teacher to get more information as you ran into them. .[/QUOTE]

I left school with my expectations in tact, and very proud of what I learned.

.[/QUOTE]
This is called OJT and continuous improvement, there is only so much students can take in and there comes a point when we must do it and learn as we do. .[/QUOTE]

And who is to say where that point is? Do you want someone shoeing your horse that couldn't concentrate on his schooling for more than 6 weeks? Do you want a doctor working on you that only has 2 years of med school, cause he just couldn't wait to start cutting out vital organs?

.[/QUOTE]
Apparently Jack did a good job, your buisy, chargeing top dollar like you claim on other threads, certified and have survived the stastics that most farriers quit the trade after a couple of years. .[/QUOTE]

What about the countless others that didn't last a couple years, they recieved the same education that I did? Is it Jacks fault they didn't make it? If I owe my success to Jack, then I guess they owe thier failure to him also. Or is it what you do after schooling that makes you the farrier you are?

.[/QUOTE]
All you can say to Jack is "Not Bad". What would be considered well done in your opinion? Would a school be considered good if the instruction was extremely advanced however all there farriers never made it? .[/QUOTE]

Why in the world would the farriers never "make it", if the curriculum is advanced? Do Harvard graduates have a harder time making it in the real world cause thier schooling was harder?

.[/QUOTE]
I think Jack has a valid point when he says it took him years to find the right method and balance of what and how to teach. I also think the AFA should be approaching him and gaining a better understanding of what he and other schools have learned over the years.[/QUOTE]

Teaching is a very difficult task in and of itself, without throwing into the mix, rank horses, 30 students, anvils ringing, and forges roaring. Again, I'm thankful for what Jack taught us, and the instructors were more than willing to help us out after hours, in the forge, or studying things we didn't understand. Believe me, I took full advantage. I'm simply stating my opinion, on something, that I see could be improved upon.

Dave

[IRNWKR_2]

It is exactly what you do after school that makes you a great farrier. I am one of the 2 week course(also attended Jacks school) part time hacks that you refer to. Making the schools harder will not get rid of the farriers that are causing all the trouble you refer to. In my area it is the people that have no training at all and believe me most of the shoers around here have no training 40$ for four shoes or the omish 25$. That is why I am part time, I am 75$ almost double the avg. around here I also am a CF testing for my CJF in November. Not bragging about 75$ because almost everyone one this site makes more just saying I am dragging the price up.

[Dave Purves]

. To be honest I see your negative comments on farrier schools following in stride with how certain individuals in the AFA leadership feel about schools in this country..[/QUOTE]

I disagree, maybe my opinions are similar, but my methods for change would be much different. I don't think it's the AFA's place to get involved in the schools. Although it seems like the very threat of the AFA's involvement has spawned some changes. So maybe it's not so bad

Knock the current education system and your knocking our trade in general, every farrier out there. .[/QUOTE]

Sorry you feel that way, but in most cases I think farriers prosper in spite of thier starting education, instead of because of..

[/QUOTE]
I see the recent attacks on farrier schools by the AFA as a slap in the face to all of us includeing AFA farriers. It shows a total lack of respect and understanding of what it takes to educate and the trade in general. .[/QUOTE]

How so?

.[/QUOTE]
I think we have free system that works pretty well and meets most of the demands of your buisy scociety. .[/QUOTE]

You can blame me for alot of things, but society is not one of them.

.[/QUOTE]
There will never be the perfect system and I bet many of the schools that have been teaching for many years have ironed out allot of wrinkles and problems that the AFA could benifit from if they would open there eyes and ears. Thats a choice the AFA needs to make.[/QUOTE]

We all know there is no perfect system, but striving for perfection is what makes us better, contentment breeds laziness.

I think the AFA noticed a serious problem with the educational system of begining farriers, and wanted to do something about it. Now I don't think it's their place. I don't believe you think it's their place either, so what choice does the AFA need to make?

Dave

[Dave Purves]

It is exactly what you do after school that makes you a great farrier. .

WHY???? I'm not disagreeing with you, but why is that the way it is?

.[/QUOTE]
I am one of the 2 week course(also attended Jacks school) part time hacks that you refer to. .[/QUOTE]

I never called anyone a hack. Obviously you're serious about your CE, but there are many more out there that are not. You should know, sounds like you're surrounded by them.



.[/QUOTE]In my area it is the people that have no training at all and believe me most of the shoers around here have no training 40$ for four shoes or the omish 25$. That is why I am part time, I am 75$ almost double the avg. around here I also am a CF testing for my CJF in November. Not bragging about 75$ because almost everyone one this site makes more just saying I am dragging the price up.[/QUOTE]

So you don't believe that having a nationwide improvement in initial education would improve your situation? I think it would for many reasons. But I doubt I could change your mind.

one thing that they should've taught you in school was
location, location, location? just a joke

Dave

[Dave Purves]

One more thing before my wife divorces me for cheating on her with the computer.

If there is nothing wrong with the educational system the way it is, Then why does everyone keep saying

it's what you do after school that makes you a good farrier? Why doesn't school make you a good farrier, and what you do afterwards, make you a great farrier?

Dave

[caballus]

A viewpoint from "the other side" ... speaking strictly as someone who had "farriers" for years (but finally got so disgusted with poor, inadequate hoofcare that I now take care of hooves, myself.) ...

I'm going to simply list a few things that "Certified" farriers have either said or noted to me or done over the years:

"It's just a little bit of White Line Disease, nothing to worry about."

"Your horse has crooked knees and a club foot. She'll never be right." (She does NOT have a club foot nor does she have crooked knees - what she DID have was a imbalanced trim causing her knees to appear crooked and her hooves to be high heeled. I did not breed this mare as planned BECAUSE I was told she was club footed and crooked. Lost years - lost foals - lost income.)

"Your horse has severe thrush. Pack with Sugardine." ... the horse had a Yeast infection that ended up taking over a year to recover because as I was packing with Sugardine, I was FEEDING the yeast causing massive proliferation. He did NOT have thrush.

"You horse is short strided and paddles." No, my horse was NOT short strided and did not paddle when the hooves were balanced properly.

"Your horse is a rude *****!" No, she (my horse) shifted her weight because she wasn't in balance to stand comfortably on 3 legs. The farrier did NOT need to hit my horse with her rasp. The horse did not set out to deliberately fall off balance.

"Pull those shoes and your horse will never be sound again. You'll never ride that horse again!" ... horse is now sound and being ridden without shoes.

"Your horse doesn't grow any heel." Excuse me ... my horse had 4" heels that were so underslung and run forward that the entire sole was almost covered with folded over and smashed heel material.

"Your horse has weak, brittle hooves." No, my horse had walls that were left too long and were chipping because of the leverages upon the walls.

"Gee, I don't know why your horse is lame. I can't find anything wrong with it. " Well, because the horse had laminitis that had progressed into founder!

Need I go on further? I've had my horses punched in the face, hit with the rasp, kicked in the gut, shanked, I've had their soles bleed from sole paring the live sole too deeply; I've had my pony crushed into the wall of the stall because the farrier "couldn't control him" (this pony stands, unrestrained, and holds his own hoof up to be trimmed) then I was charged $80 !!! for a trim on 2 miniature ponies ... their hooves ended up looking as if a dog chewed on them and had to be re-done immediately (by another farrier). I've had my horse's leg cut open by the side of a battering rasp ... etc. etc.

Is this the fault of the schools? Of the board? Of the educational processes to become Certified Farriers?

The BEST farriers I've had over the course of years and years were those who were "home-spun" ... not Certified and learned from the local farrier hands-on.

As a horse owner (not withstanding being a hoofcare provider now) ... I would rather hire someone homespun who has a bit of HORSE sensitivity and knows how to trim and care for the individual horse than someone who is Certified and exhibits less than professional knowledge, manners and care which is what I've encountered over the years. Shoes or not shoes should not make a difference. Proper care for the individual horse and hooves is what *should* matter to the professional hoofcare provider.

Is it REALLY about the Certification? Or, is it about the individual hoofcare provider and his or her individual drive to do and be the best possible (or lack of drive)?

Schools are to provide an education to those who want to be students and LEARN. Certification means diddly-squat when one chooses to be less than certifiably proficient. Just means that they pass the test and exhibit all the "right answers" on the day of testing for Certification. It's all about choices and no one can force a "choice" upon another.

JMO from another viewpoint.

--Gwen

[IRNWKR_2]

Dave, I think it is that way because it is easier to learn something when we can see it. Ther is no way for any school to give us a look at all the situations we may be put in. When I graduated from college I was not good at anything I did have a diploma which I looked at it as a certificate that said that I was teachable. The first job I had my boss told me forget everything you learned in college I will teach you what you need to know in the first six months. Vet schools are the same way they dont turn out great veteranarians yet someone who has basic skills and is willing to work, they make great employees. I think that is all your schools are responsible for and it is up to us to continue our education and apprentice and become great. But dont get me wrong I am not against standardized courses or schools. I know they could improved, but who gets to decide the standard. I do know one thing for shore as long as there is someone willing to shoe a horse for 40$ there will be someone willing to let them.
I am actually in between to good locations 80 miles south 4 shoes avg 125$ 60 miles to the north 85-100$ but for one I dont want the majority of my horses that far away and I am still not good enogh businessman to make it on 100$ a head right know.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

caballus in teal, massive deletia

A viewpoint from "the other side" ... speaking strictly as someone who had "farriers" for years (but finally got so disgusted with poor, inadequate hoofcare that I now take care of hooves, myself.)

[Deleted tale of woe in which our heroine smites the certified philistines, using the same weapon as the biblical Samson.]

Is this the fault of the schools? Of the board? Of the educational processes to become Certified Farriers?

All private horseshoeing schools teach only rudimentary farriery - the basic, plain vanilla stuff like which way to turn a nail and shape a shoe. In my experience, if a shoeing school graduate is motivated and handy, he will be capable of making a working farrier a decent apprentice, nothing more.

The BEST farriers I've had over the course of years and years were those who were "home-spun" ... not Certified and learned from the local farrier hands-on.

Unless one knows the origin of the credential, the term "certified" is meaningless and might be purchased or self-bestowed.

As a horse owner (not withstanding being a hoofcare provider now)...

I don't know what a "hoofcare provider" is: farriers are in the horse care business.

... I would rather hire someone homespun who has a bit of HORSE sensitivity and knows how to trim and care for the individual horse than someone who is Certified and exhibits less than professional knowledge, manners and care which is what I've encountered over the years.

Your statement appears to be contradictory: If one limits oneself only to trimming, one is incapable of meeting the needs of every horse.

Farriers hear all sorts of excuses for the unruly, even dangerous, behavior of ill-broke pukes, but the ultimate responsibility for any horse's behavior - good or bad - lies with the owner or trainer. As a horse owner, you are responsible for the behavior of your horses. In other words, it's not up to the farrier to train your horses while you make excuses for their behavior, it's up to you to have your horses accustomed to having their feet handled before you call the farrier.

Unlike a "homespun" farrier - who may be anything from the reincarnation of Lungwitz to some jakeleg two-week shoeing school dropout with the ink still wet on his cards - a farrier holding an AFA CF credential has demonstrated his basic knowledge and motor skills, while any farrier holding a Guild credential or an AFA CJF has demonstrated a knowledge of equid anatomy and physiology beyond the basic level, as well as competency in the forge.

Shoes or not shoes should not make a difference. Proper care for the individual horse and hooves is what *should* matter to the professional hoofcare provider.

Good farriery is about doing whatever it takes to give the horse whatever it needs to do whatever it does as best is can. Good farriery is not about training horses to have their feet handled, that's the responsibility of the horse's connections.

Is it REALLY about the Certification? Or, is it about the individual hoofcare provider and his or her individual drive to do and be the best possible (or lack of drive)?

Schools are to provide an education to those who want to be students and LEARN. Certification means diddly-squat when one chooses to be less than certifiably proficient. Just means that they pass the test and exhibit all the "right answers" on the day of testing for Certification. It's all about choices and no one can force a "choice" upon another.

No test can measure the testee's dedication to giving the each horse exactly what it needs; however, an AFA or Guild credential is indicative of a successful demonstration of both knowledge and proficiency which suggests, but does not guarantee, both motivation and dedication. Given the choice between two unknown farriers - one with legitimate credentials, the other without - a horse owner is choosing between someone who has successfully demonstrated their proficiency and someone who has not.

When you think about it, if certification only gives an owner a better chance to find a competent farrier than does throwing darts at the farrier cards posted on the feed store's bulletin board, certification is worth seeking out.

[Mike Ferrara]

If there is nothing wrong with the educational system the way it is, Then why does everyone keep saying

it's what you do after school that makes you a good farrier? Why doesn't school make you a good farrier, and what you do afterwards, make you a great farrier?

Dave

Because no school of any kind makes you a good anything. Medical school doesn't make one a good doc, engineering school doesn't make you any kind of an engineer and certainly not a good one and on and on. School teaches you to read, write, do your numbers and most importantly how to learn and gives you the tools needed to learn in your chosen field. School is just the nuts and bolts. To go a step further, many people with advanced education never even work in the exact field they studied, yet the nuts and bolts that you were given in school usually cross over very well. IBM used to love to hire people with music degrees, the FBI won't touch you without a 4 year degree although they care little what your degree is in. My major in school was electronics yet I worked with MANY technologies in which I had no formal education at all. The same math and reasoning skills apply, you just have to learn how. The math used to describe anything that goes in a circle is the same math we use to describe AC electricity (a sine wave is a sine wave is a sine wave), fluid flow bares a striking resemblance to electrical current flow and so on.

As I see it, and I didn't go to any shoeing school at all, is the schools are teaching students the tools they need to learn the craft.

[caballus]

[Deleted tale of woe in which our heroine smites the certified philistines, using the same weapon as the biblical Samson.]

No, gave the reasons WHY I feel about "Certified" farriers. Tales of woe? So you minimize the "malpractice" of the farriers in those cases? You say that the results of their trimming and their behavior is acceptable?

I throw no stones. I merely choose for my own based upon my own experiences.

Unless one knows the origin of the credential, the term "certified" is meaningless and might be purchased or self-bestowed.

By using the term "Certified" I was talking about Board Certified Farriers and Journeymen.

I don't know what a "hoofcare provider" is: farriers are in the horse care business.

Break apart the word and you might understand it better ... hoof-care-provider. One who provides care for the hoof. Used as a general term to cover those who ... care for the hoof as professionals.

Farriers hear all sorts of excuses for the unruly, even dangerous, behavior of ill-broke pukes, but the ultimate responsibility for any horse's behavior - good or bad - lies with the owner or trainer. As a horse owner, you are responsible for the behavior of your horses. In other words, it's not up to the farrier to train your horses while you make excuses for their behavior, it's up to you to have your horses accustomed to having their feet handled before you call the farrier.

Absolutely agree. It is ALSO the responsibility of the FARRIER or HOOFCARE PROVIDER to be able to control one's own emotions and frustrations and not take them out on the horse. It is ALSO the responsibility of the farrier or hoofcare provider to make sure that the horse is BALANCED and COMFORTABLE before asking for the hoof. I do not find it acceptable for someone to just grab a hoof expecting the horse to be OK with it ... the horse needs to be allowed to balance itself in order to GIVE the hoof AND be allowed to shift its weight or hooves in order TO be comfortable and balanced. Are 'Certified" farriers taught how to stand up a horse to lift a hoof? Or how to help the horse balance itself?

Unlike a "homespun" farrier - who may be anything from the reincarnation of Lungwitz to some jakeleg two-week shoeing school dropout with the ink still wet on his cards - a farrier holding an AFA CF credential has demonstrated his basic knowledge and motor skills, while any farrier holding a Guild credential or an AFA CJF has demonstrated a knowledge of equid anatomy and physiology beyond the basic level, as well as competency in the forge.

Either one is "Certified" to be representative of the "Association" by which they were certified, are they not? The representatives that I and many others with whom have become totally disillusioned of "farriery" work have become this way due to the representation BY the individual farriers who profess to be either Guild or AFA Certified (and others). The representation has been purely exhibited by choice of the individual.

No test can measure the testee's dedication to giving the each horse exactly what it needs; however, an AFA or Guild credential is indicative of a successful demonstration of both knowledge and proficiency which suggests, but does not guarantee, both motivation and dedication. Given the choice between two unknown farriers - one with legitimate credentials, the other without - a horse owner is choosing between someone who has successfully demonstrated their proficiency and someone who has not.

Precisely. So, we agree and my question is ... what will further rules and regs and certifications DO for "the craft" as a whole? If those graduating from the farrier schools are not demonstrating the excellence that was taught, then what difference does it all make? If the schools are NOT teaching basic professional manners along WITH facts and techniques then they are missing some very vital points to share.

BTW ... throwing darts is a craft, too. One in which I am not proficient. I'd rather take a look at hooves and find out who the hoof-care-provider is for those hooves than look at a bunch of letters on a bulletin board card.

The horse and hooves are the best references in spite of who's certified, who's not certified, who learned from his grandpappy's knee, who learned and graduated from a noted university with degrees just a week beforehand, or who is homeschooled. Horses tell no lies.

--Gwen

[Mike Ferrara]

I think the entire educational system needs an update, instead of 12 weeks, why not 12 months? Why not incorporate "real" business classes?

Any one can get all the business classes they want even at their local Jr college. While I'd recommend it to any one planning to run their own business I doubt that it would be practical for a specialty school like a shoeing school to teach business. Even an AAS from a real college will have a very narrow field of subjects. As, an example, if you get an AAS in HVAC you most likely won't get any business classes to help you start your HVAC business and that's a 2 year program. Some type of general college education is probably a good idea for any one including a farrier but I don't know that a shoeing school is the place to get it.

I'm not saying that certification standards are appropriate, but some type of "graduation" final exam. How about setting up, or helping students with apprenticeships? I would love to have a helper, if I know that when he or she arrives, they can keep up.

Are you going to pay this helper? Maybe you shopuld get paid to continue teaching them. If the tuition were large enough the school could employ farriers to apprentice their graduates. It's like a 5 year process to become a journymen in the eltricians unsion. You spend part of the time in school and part of the time on the job mostly working as a laborer for entry level pay. It could be done but in this case the contractors MUST hire through the union and they are more or less FORCED to participate. Now, how much more about wireing and electricity do you suppose these folks know than say someone like me with a degree in elctronics? It's a joke and it's about control.

I think that standardizing the educational system, and possibly making it "harder" would weed out many of the part-time, semi-retired, doing this for mad money don't pay taxes, won't charge more than $15 shoers out. This would be good for the profession as a whole.

Why should part timers be kept out? At least in the US we , in theory, can choose what we do for a vocation or avocation. How would it be good for the profession? Again more barriers to entry proposed by people who sound like they're afraid of the competition. Competition is generally good for a profession and the consumer and competing on the basis of cost is absolutely valid.

Most of the imcompetence would be gone, prices would be more reasonable, and owners, vets, and other equine professionals would be more apt to treat us as equals, instead of just "blacksmiths".

What not just come out and say you want price controles? Note that controls that limit your minimum might also limit your maximum so be careful what you wish for.

Why do you think you should be treated as an equal? Do you have a PHD? Are you a doctor of horse shoeing? Is an AFA certification the equivilant to one? Whether it is or isn't what do you think it really is that determines how you are treated?

In times past, the blacksmith was an essential person in the community. No one could get along without them. Even the carpenter had to have the blacksmith make his tools. Without a blacksmith the farmer would have to plow his fielf with his finger nails. Yet the blacksmith never occupied a very high position in society. I guess maybe it's the white collar/blue collar thing.

There are too many farriers out there that simply went to a two week school somewhere and then hung their shingle, not knowing the harm they are doing to the horse, and the business.


I've said before, I see lots of harm done to horses and 99% of it is done by the owner. Are vets doing that much better for horses? They certainly have the education for it but aside from floating teeth and giving caccinations so many of the ones I see aren't going to do much for a horse. Laminitis usually gets a prescritption of bute and a trim around here. The worst farrier on their worst day won't do that much damage to a horse. I keep hearing about all the farrier crippled horses but I'm not seeing it.

Harming what business? Whos business...yours, mine or theirs? Harming it how? Take care of your own clients and let the next guy take care of his. If he doesn't, it just creates oportunities for you. You might even be able to charge more. OTOH, if he's charging less and his clients are happy then maybe you ARE charging more than your really worth. Maybe you're just not as efficient as you could be. That's exactly why competition is healthy for an industry.

It still sounds to me like what many of you want is a union. For the most part unions are on their way out and for good reason.

If shoeing schools don't meet the needs or expectations of students or fail to compete with other schools it will show in their enrollment. The students are their customers. That's who they answer to and that's as it should be. Open a 2 or 4 year shoeing school, teach business and whatever else you think is appropriate. If there's a market for it and what you offer is of value to students you should do well. I sure can't see why any shoeing school would allow you, me or the AFA to tell them how to run their business...unless we were investing in it somehow. If you don't want to start or run a school maybe you could just buy into one. With enough of an investment you should be able to get some of your ideas tested. If the AFA has so many ideas on how schools should be run maybe they need to open one...or a chain. They could even do it like the scuba certification agencies by certifying the instructors and authorising them to issue AFA certifications as long as their standards are used and the certification is processed by them. That would take more than talk though and it really doesn't work very well in the dive industry where "certified" means anything but "good".

[Dave Purves]

Are you going to pay this helper? Maybe you shopuld get paid to continue teaching them. If the tuition were large enough the school could employ farriers to apprentice their graduates. It's like a 5 year process to become a journymen in the eltricians unsion. You spend part of the time in school and part of the time on the job mostly working as a laborer for entry level pay. It could be done but in this case the contractors MUST hire through the union and they are more or less FORCED to participate. Now, how much more about wireing and electricity do you suppose these folks know than say someone like me with a degree in elctronics? It's a joke and it's about control..

I don't want control of anything other than my business. I also have some manufacturing background, and I know that an engineer can screw up a machine or a part simply because they don't have the "practical" knowledge of putting the thing together, or having to make it work. You may know plenty about electronics, but can you physically make it work, or can you draw the schematics and know that a book said it should work?
.

[/QUOTE]
Why should part timers be kept out? .[/QUOTE]

I've got no problem with part-timers that continue thier education, pay thier taxes, and run thier business on the "up and up".


.[/QUOTE]
At least in the US we , in theory, can choose what we do for a vocation or avocation..[/QUOTE]

Amen, so maybe I should hang my shingle and become a doctor tomarrow?


.[/QUOTE] How would it be good for the profession? Again more barriers to entry proposed by people who sound like they're afraid of the competition. Competition is generally good for a profession and the consumer and competing on the basis of cost is absolutely valid. .[/QUOTE]

Sometimes the cost is paid by the horse, sometimes the horse owner. I've fought my way out of the trenches, competition doesn't scare me, my book is full, and my bills are paid. That doesn't change the fact that any ***** that buys tools can go out start a farrier business. We get on these boards, and complain that vets don't take us seriously but how can they? One day they deal with you, someone that knows what's going on, takes the time to learn, and is competent. The next day they deal with Joe Schmo toe dubber that's never seen or heard of an eggbar shoe. Doesn't know how to apply a pad.



.[/QUOTE]What not just come out and say you want price controles? Note that controls that limit your minimum might also limit your maximum so be careful what you wish for..[/QUOTE]

I dont' need price controls, I get what I ask for.

.[/QUOTE]Why do you think you should be treated as an equal? Do you have a PHD? Are you a doctor of horse shoeing? Is an AFA certification the equivilant to one? Whether it is or isn't what do you think it really is that determines how you are treated?.[/QUOTE]

I thought the whole PHD thing didn't matter, I thought education didn't matter, schooling didn't matter. Obviously it does if I need one to be equal. You can turn this into a certification matter if you want. But I never brought it up. I know that in most cases I know just as much if not more than alot of vets when it comes to the horses legs and feet. And usually more when it comes to helping a horse out when it's not moving quite right. If you don't, and don't feel equal to the vets in that area, that's your problem not mine, and I refuse to be treated like lower level s***.



.[/QUOTE]I've said before, I see lots of harm done to horses and 99% of it is done by the owner..[/QUOTE]

We could blame poor shoeing on the owner too, after all, they are the person that decides what farrier to call, who will do thier work, and what is a good job. Unfortunately many owners recieved their opinions on horseshoeing from **** poor farriers, so that won't raise the bar much will it..

[/QUOTE]
Are vets doing that much better for horses? They certainly have the education for it but aside from floating teeth and giving caccinations so many of the ones I see aren't going to do much for a horse. Laminitis usually gets a prescritption of bute and a trim around here. The worst farrier on their worst day won't do that much damage to a horse. I keep hearing about all the farrier crippled horses but I'm not seeing it.

.[/QUOTE]Harming what business? Whos business...yours, mine or theirs? Harming it how? Take care of your own clients and let the next guy take care of his. If he doesn't, it just creates oportunities for you. .[/QUOTE]

I've made my opportunities, I don't want anymore, I'm full. What I don't want to see is some poor shmuck that pays a couple thousand dollars to attend a school, with notion that when he or she is done they will be completely competent to run a business and shoe horses. When they can not, they create problems, that they can't fix. So they get frustrated, and quit. How much time and money did they waste? Maybe if this wasn't a fly by night trade, go to 2 weeks of school and start making big money kind of thing it wouldn't happen.


.[/QUOTE]You might even be able to charge more. OTOH, if he's charging less and his clients are happy then maybe you ARE charging more than your really worth. Maybe you're just not as efficient as you could be. That's exactly why competition is healthy for an industry..[/QUOTE]

I charge what I want. No more, no less. If you want to try and take pot shots at me that's fine, but I'm not going to waste time answering them. If you want to come see how much I charge, you're welcome anytime.

.[/QUOTE]It still sounds to me like what many of you want is a union. For the most part unions are on their way out and for good reason..[/QUOTE]

Quite the contrary, I beleive one of the biggest downfalls of our nation is the UNION. I dont' want anyone telling me how to do my job. But that doesn't change the fact that initial farrier training lacks.

.[/QUOTE]If shoeing schools don't meet the needs or expectations of students or fail to compete with other schools it will show in their enrollment. The students are their customers. That's who they answer to and that's as it should be. .[/QUOTE]

quite right, but the students don't know, It's been status quo for soooo long that it's OK, for them to be lacking. No one knows what it would be like if they were more in depth, cause it's not there. They advertise 8 weeks, and you're a professional, and it's been that way for years. They don't advertise 8 weeks and your ready for an apprenticeship.


.[/QUOTE]Open a 2 or 4 year shoeing school, teach business and whatever else you think is appropriate. If there's a market for it and what you offer is of value to students you should do well. I sure can't see why any shoeing school would allow you, me or the AFA to tell them how to run their business...unless we were investing in it somehow..[/QUOTE]

I've often thought about starting a school, maybe in 15 years when I'm ready to slow down I will, until then I'll just have to see what happens. I also agree that no one should tell the schools how to do business, I don't think the AFA should be involved in education. I said that in this thread.


.[/QUOTE]. If the AFA has so many ideas on how schools should be run maybe they need to open one...or a chain. They could even do it like the scuba certification agencies by certifying the instructors and authorising them to issue AFA certifications as long as their standards are used and the certification is processed by them. That would take more than talk though and it really doesn't work very well in the dive industry where "certified" means anything but "good".[/QUOTE]

You're hatred for certification and the AFA only tells me that at some point in time you probably tried to get certified and failed. Just a guess. Anyway, as I said before I don't think the AFA should be involved, I was just expressing my opinion on initial farrier education.
Dave

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

caballus in teal, my old stuff in blue, deletia in places

[Deleted tale of woe in which our heroine smites the certified philistines, using the same weapon as the biblical Samson.]

No, gave the reasons WHY I feel about "Certified" farriers. Tales of woe? So you minimize the "malpractice" of the farriers in those cases? You say that the results of their trimming and their behavior is acceptable?

With all due respect ma'am, I don't place much credence in unsubstantiated allegations of "malpractice," especially when they are contrary to my own experience. Anyone can accuse another of all manner of malfeasance, especially when the accuser fails to mention any names and the accusations conveniently happen to advance his own agenda.

Unless one knows the origin of the credential, the term "certified" is meaningless and might be purchased or self-bestowed.

By using the term "Certified" I was talking about Board Certified Farriers and Journeymen.

FYI, no "Board" exists and a journeyman credential in the USA can be resultant of JHU, BWFA, AFA or Guild testing.

I don't know what a "hoofcare provider" is: farriers are in the horse care business.

Break apart the word and you might understand it better ... hoof-care-provider. One who provides care for the hoof. Used as a general term to cover those who ... care for the hoof as professionals.

In reality, for any member of the Barefoot Uber Alles contingent, the term "Hoof care provider" is both inaccurate and self-aggrandizing because anyone limited solely to trimming the hoof is demonstrably incapable of meeting the needs of every horse. An infinitely more accurate term would be, "Almost a hoof care provider."

...It is ALSO the responsibility of the FARRIER or HOOFCARE PROVIDER to be able to control one's own emotions and frustrations and not take them out on the horse.

The control of one's emotions and frustrations is the default state for most farriers: Why would your argument illogically presume otherwise? Got an agenda? :)

It is ALSO the responsibility of the farrier or hoofcare provider to make sure that the horse is BALANCED and COMFORTABLE before asking for the hoof.

One assumes any horse broke to having its feet handled is capable of standing on three legs.

I do not find it acceptable for someone to just grab a hoof expecting the horse to be OK with it ... the horse needs to be allowed to balance itself in order to GIVE the hoof AND be allowed to shift its weight or hooves in order TO be comfortable and balanced.

In my experience, any horse broke to having its feet handled will do all the weight shifting, moving, balancing, etc., it needs to do when the farrier signals his intent to pick up the foot by sliding his hand down the leg. Properly done, a broke horse has gotten the message by the time the farriers hand reaches the foot. (Trim enough broncs, one learns to start picking up a hind at the withers.)

Are 'Certified" farriers taught how to stand up a horse to lift a hoof? Or how to help the horse balance itself?

Here in Texas, horses are capable of standing and balancing without help: Are things different at your end of the sandbox?

Either one is "Certified" to be representative of the "Association" by which they were certified, are they not?

No ma'am, one need not be a member of the AFA to hold a CJF credential. Since the Guild is an organization comprised entirely of working farriers, I believe successfully testing is one of the criteria for membership

The representatives that I and many others with whom have become totally disillusioned of "farriery" work have become this way due to the representation BY the individual farriers who profess to be either Guild or AFA Certified (and others).

Where are these vast legions of folks whom you allege to have been the victims of AFA CJFs and Guild farriers? Wherever they are, they've shown up missing at Greater Houston's various race tracks, rodeos, horse shows, and equine clinics.

No test can measure the testee's dedication to giving the each horse exactly what it needs; however, an AFA or Guild credential is indicative of a successful demonstration of both knowledge and proficiency which suggests, but does not guarantee, both motivation and dedication. Given the choice between two unknown farriers - one with legitimate credentials, the other without - a horse owner is choosing between someone who has successfully demonstrated their proficiency and someone who has not.

Precisely. So, we agree and my question is ... what will further rules and regs and certifications DO for "the craft" as a whole? If those graduating from the farrier schools are not demonstrating the excellence that was taught, then what difference does it all make? If the schools are NOT teaching basic professional manners along WITH facts and techniques then they are missing some very vital points to share.

Private schools are in the business of making a profit, they are not bastions of altruism. The courses are far too short to teach excellence, although some of them turn out passable apprentices and a few instill a desire to excel in their graduates. That said, with very few exceptions, a student gets out of a school exactly what the student is willing to put into a school.

BTW ... throwing darts is a craft, too. One in which I am not proficient. I'd rather take a look at hooves and find out who the hoof-care-provider is for those hooves than look at a bunch of letters on a bulletin board card.

The horse's needs are paramount. If an "almost a hoof care provider" can meet those needs, good for all concerned; however, when the horse has needs beyond the ken of an "almost a hoof care provider", those needs will probably be better met by someone who has demonstrated the ability to meet those needs.

The horse and hooves are the best references in spite of who's certified, who's not certified, who learned from his grandpappy's knee, who learned and graduated from a noted university with degrees just a week beforehand, or who is homeschooled. Horses tell no lies.

No ma'am, the ultimate test is this: Did the horse get whatever it needs in order to do whatever it does as best it can?

[Lammynitis]

I have been silent for along time now, because there seems to be people in here who want to do nothing but argue and tear the conversation away from its focus,

Mr. Roth started this thread and asked a question "Whats really going on here?" I am very glad you asked that Mr. Roth.

In my opinion:

The AFA, and I say the AFA because we are all responsible for letting this mess happen in the first place, has decided that they are the Alpha & Omega on the subject of shoeing, its no secret that Walt Taylor has tried to push his little cart of **** up this road on at least two other occasions, this time he just got sneakier about it.

The AFA for whatever reason and I would venture to guess is looking at money. Money that they feel should be in the AFA coffers not the pockets of independent business men and women.

To push "walts thoughts" through will serve to build the AFA membership (if you want to continue practicing) thereby raising not the bar but revenues.
The AFA would be the administering orginization I am sure there would be an administrative fee involved in that one also.
The AFA would control schools or have only there school available to prospective students, they could sell the curriculum to the schools that chose to try to adhere to the AFA regulations, and of course we could add more and more to the list...............Does anyone besides me find it quite funny that a group of people (many of them here) do nothing but whine about the schools making money and yet here is the grand and glorius AFA making sure that it will get its fair share of that dirty money that no one wants to talk about? It is not about the horse or skills or barefooters its about CASH!

That Mr. Roth is what is going on here!

Ok Rick its all yours I ve been gone awhile so sharpen your fangs and have it old buddy!!

[old heller]

lets see if i get this the supplies we get for shoeing are regulated with no price breaks for farriers,a horse owner could walk into a supply house and pay the same when I say regulated I mean we cant buy direct from manufacturer it is a strangle hold industry and now the afa wants to charge us too or we can't practice hum and then Mr. doug Butler wants to get another fee for writing our tests and guidelines.hum Jack Roth who doesn't even teach at his school any longer is upset.hum Bob Smith who is so antagonistic to government interference is on board with this? humcost of book $179.00 and no color photos in this day and age just peruse the old book and add a smidge PHD huh piled higher and deeper.I myself when I was looking for a school was looking for a long term trade school for 6 months or a year but they do not exist any more in the states I think Mr.Bud Beastons was the last.the best for long term learning intensive learning i think is a school in kentucky which is 16 weeks of farrier training not horse handling.Unfortunatly I was just starting to get some parts when school ended though I have taken other educational avenues since then am taking more still maybe I will get it but by then it will change what is that quote "Before enlightenment "you clean **** and carry water "after enlightenment master?"clean **** and carry water" cept your perspective has changed

[Phil Armitage]

I have been silent for along time now, because there seems to be people in here who want to do nothing but argue and tear the conversation away from its focus,

Mr. Roth started this thread and asked a question "Whats really going on here?" I am very glad you asked that Mr. Roth.

In my opinion:

The AFA, and I say the AFA because we are all responsible for letting this mess happen in the first place, has decided that they are the Alpha & Omega on the subject of shoeing, its no secret that Walt Taylor has tried to push his little cart of **** up this road on at least two other occasions, this time he just got sneakier about it.

The AFA for whatever reason and I would venture to guess is looking at money. Money that they feel should be in the AFA coffers not the pockets of independent business men and women.

To push "walts thoughts" through will serve to build the AFA membership (if you want to continue practicing) thereby raising not the bar but revenues.
The AFA would be the administering orginization I am sure there would be an administrative fee involved in that one also.
The AFA would control schools or have only there school available to prospective students, they could sell the curriculum to the schools that chose to try to adhere to the AFA regulations, and of course we could add more and more to the list...............Does anyone besides me find it quite funny that a group of people (many of them here) do nothing but whine about the schools making money and yet here is the grand and glorius AFA making sure that it will get its fair share of that dirty money that no one wants to talk about? It is not about the horse or skills or barefooters its about CASH!

That Mr. Roth is what is going on here!

Ok Rick its all yours I ve been gone awhile so sharpen your fangs and have it old buddy!!

Lucky for us you have been silent and not pushed this subject more out of focus. :confused:

Ahhhh, nope. I don't think Mr. Roth was asking a question like "Hey guys tell me what is really going on here?" It looked more like "hey let me tell you what is really going on here."

I will take your word that the AFA has been up or down this road on two other occaissions, I do not know since I am a rookie compared to the all the other ole timers.

I have to be honest about money being the primary motivator, I was thinking the same thing. I am not saying it is true, but I thought the same thing and I still do.

Yep, if Walt gets his wishes, the AFA membership will certainly grow.

Okay this question is kind of odd. You said, Does anyone besides me find it quite funny that a group of people (many of them here) do nothing but whine about the schools making money and yet here is the grand and glorius AFA making sure that it will get its fair share of that dirty money that no one wants to talk about?

Lets see, when did anyone here whine about how much money the schools are makeing or that it is dirty money? I think you need to explain. :confused:

[Phil Armitage]

lets see if i get this the supplies we get for shoeing are regulated with no price breaks for farriers,a horse owner could walk into a supply house and pay the same when I say regulated I mean we cant buy direct from manufacturer it is a strangle hold industry and now the afa wants to charge us too or we can't practice hum and then Mr. doug *** Butler wants to get another fee for writing our tests and guidelines.hum Jack Roth who doesn't even teach at his school any longer is upset.hum Bob Smith who is so antagonistic to government interference is on board with this? humcost of book $179.00 and no goddammed color photos in this day and age just peruse the old book and add a smidge PHD huh piled higher and deeper.I myself when I was looking for a school was looking for a long term trade school for 6 months or a year but they do not exist any more in the states I think Mr.Bud Beastons was the last.the best for long term learning intensive learning i think is a school in kentucky which is 16 weeks of farrier training not horse handling.Unfortunatly I was just starting to get some parts when school ended though I have taken other educational avenues since then am taking more still maybe I will get it but by then it will change what is that quote "Before enlightenment "you clean **** and carry water "after enlightenment master?"clean **** and carry water" cept your perspective has changed

Hey lets **** off the shoeing manufactures and supply warehouse and make our owne shoes. Wait a minute is that what the AFA is trying to do? :)

[Mike Ferrara]

I don't want control of anything other than my business. I also have some manufacturing background, and I know that an engineer can screw up a machine or a part simply because they don't have the "practical" knowledge of putting the thing together, or having to make it work. You may know plenty about electronics, but can you physically make it work, or can you draw the schematics and know that a book said it should work?

I'm not sure how this fits the discussion but making things work is what I did for a living...cradle to grave so to speak.
.


Why should part timers be kept out? .[/QUOTE]

I've got no problem with part-timers that continue thier education, pay thier taxes, and run thier business on the "up and up".[/QUOTE]

Not that it's right but lots of people cheat on taxes.


.
At least in the US we , in theory, can choose what we do for a vocation or avocation..[/QUOTE]

Amen, so maybe I should hang my shingle and become a doctor tomarrow?[/QUOTE]

No but if you have a building you can put up a sign and call it a an auto repair shop or any one of a hundred other thngs.




.Why do you think you should be treated as an equal? Do you have a PHD? Are you a doctor of horse shoeing? Is an AFA certification the equivilant to one? Whether it is or isn't what do you think it really is that determines how you are treated?.[/QUOTE]

I thought the whole PHD thing didn't matter, I thought education didn't matter, schooling didn't matter. Obviously it does if I need one to be equal. You can turn this into a certification matter if you want. But I never brought it up. I know that in most cases I know just as much if not more than alot of vets when it comes to the horses legs and feet. And usually more when it comes to helping a horse out when it's not moving quite right. If you don't, and don't feel equal to the vets in that area, that's your problem not mine, and I refuse to be treated like lower level s***.[/QUOTE]

My point was that I don't think anything we're talking about is going to change the way you are treated. I don't have a problem with the way I'm treated by vets. When I call one for my own horse I treat them like an employee. When I have to consult with one about a clients horse it's just that...a consultation between two different pros seeing after two different aspects of the job. If the vet fails to do his job by the way he interacts with me then it's the job that may suffer but not me. If I don't feel I'm getting the information that I need I just bring it to the attention of the client. it's their responsibility to make decisions concerning the vet and sometimes they need to be replaced like any contractor. Of course the problen could exist the other way around and it could be the farrier that needs to be replaced. Either way, bothe the vet and I either do our job or we don't.



.I've said before, I see lots of harm done to horses and 99% of it is done by the owner..[/QUOTE]

We could blame poor shoeing on the owner too, after all, they are the person that decides what farrier to call, who will do thier work, and what is a good job. Unfortunately many owners recieved their opinions on horseshoeing from **** poor farriers, so that won't raise the bar much will it..[/QUOTE]

I'm not out to do anything with any bar other than my own. the next guy can lay his right on the ground and it's ok with me.

I've made my opportunities, I don't want anymore, I'm full. What I don't want to see is some poor shmuck that pays a couple thousand dollars to attend a school, with notion that when he or she is done they will be completely competent to run a business and shoe horses. When they can not, they create problems, that they can't fix. So they get frustrated, and quit. How much time and money did they waste? Maybe if this wasn't a fly by night trade, go to 2 weeks of school and start making big money kind of thing it wouldn't happen.

It happens in all businesses. Not every one continues in the same profession for their whole life and there are many reasons they don't.


.You might even be able to charge more. OTOH, if he's charging less and his clients are happy then maybe you ARE charging more than your really worth. Maybe you're just not as efficient as you could be. That's exactly why competition is healthy for an industry..[/QUOTE]

I charge what I want. No more, no less. If you want to try and take pot shots at me that's fine, but I'm not going to waste time answering them. If you want to come see how much I charge, you're welcome anytime.[/QUOTE]

That wasn't meant as a pot shot. Just stating that price competition is one valid means of gaining market share. Though it doesn't seem to go over well in this business.

.It still sounds to me like what many of you want is a union. For the most part unions are on their way out and for good reason..[/QUOTE]

Quite the contrary, I beleive one of the biggest downfalls of our nation is the UNION. I dont' want anyone telling me how to do my job. But that doesn't change the fact that initial farrier training lacks.[/QUOTE]

In my experience, initial training in everything lacks if you expecting to walk out of school knowing how to do a job.


.. If the AFA has so many ideas on how schools should be run maybe they need to open one...or a chain. They could even do it like the scuba certification agencies by certifying the instructors and authorising them to issue AFA certifications as long as their standards are used and the certification is processed by them. That would take more than talk though and it really doesn't work very well in the dive industry where "certified" means anything but "good".[/QUOTE]

You're hatred for certification and the AFA only tells me that at some point in time you probably tried to get certified and failed. Just a guess. Anyway, as I said before I don't think the AFA should be involved, I was just expressing my opinion on initial farrier education.
Dave[/QUOTE]

You guessed wrong. I've never taken a test for any farrier association. I have a whole box of scuba and scuba instructor certifications though. I don't even know how many (30 or so maybe?). That's a business that runs on certifications. My lack of respect for certifications comes from all the total hacks (right up to an including those who get people killed!) I've seen who have all the right certifications. Sure we take tests but what do they really prove? And then there's the attitude some have seemingly because they have a certification. In the case of the AFA test, I read the contents of the test and wonder how it would show evidence that I can do what my clients need me to do. I'm not new to this and I've seen the work of more than a few farriers. I see absolutely NO correlation between the quality of ones work and their level of certification. To me, it's a paper chase and marketing hogwash. Horse owners don't seem impressed by certifications and that seems to bother a bunch of people. I get a kick out of the trucks I see with AFA, CJF painted accoss the side. If I had done that with my diving truck one truck wouldn't have been enough. Still, flashing your cert in front of me won't get you anything unless I see you in the water (in the case of the diving certs). In fact they have just the oposite effect. I know that any one who thinks their cert means anything anything to any one other than the agency who issued it probably lacks experience, and likely, to the point of being dangerous.

If I have any dislike for the AFA it came about with all this talk of licensing. I dislike market or industry control and barriers to entry that only serve those who have already entered.

[Gary_Miller]

In my experience, initial training in everything lacks if you expecting to walk out of school knowing how to do a job..

Mike
I disagree with your statement here. If a person cannot do the job when he graduates from school then the school has not done their job. When I graduate, from any type of school, I expect to have the knowledge necessary to be able to go to work with the very minimun of OJT. (This of couse is as long as I have done my part in the learning process.) This does not mean I should know everything about the job but I should be able to perform basic taskes without any supervision.

In the Farrier industry upon leaving school I should have and need the knowledge necessary to be profecent with basic trims, shoeing, forging, and have a sound knowledge at least, of the anatomy of the horses lower limb. I also feel that I should be able to go take the AFA IC test and pass it. Further more I should have a good understanding on how to operate a small business, and a good understanding of customer service. If I can't do this, and I have applied myself in all that was thaught, then the school has failed to do what I paid them for.

Since there is no true OJT in the Farrier busness, the schools must fulfill this requirement as well. The schools need to ensure that I have the minumun knowledge and skills needed in order to hang my shingle out and go to work upon graduation.


Gary

[IRNWKR_2]

Mike, You dont think the initial education is any good and your against CE like the AFA certification program so how do they learn.

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=Lammynitis]>I have been silent for along time now

Your silence was golden! Why oh why did you choose to break it?

You were not missed nor your absence lamented(like the play on words, Oh lame One?)

Do us all a favor and slink back to where ever you call home.

[Dave Purves]

If I have any dislike for the AFA it came about with all this talk of licensing. I dislike market or industry control and barriers to entry that only serve those who have already entered.


Well I don't blame you for being discourged, but change can be made if you're willing to help initiate it. I've never been the type to quit, or run away when things didn't go my way, and you don't sound like that type either. Right now would be a good time to join, and let your vote count.
Dave

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Mike Ferrara in gray, massive deletia

I've never taken a test for any farrier association. I have a whole box of scuba and scuba instructor certifications though. I don't even know how many (30 or so maybe?). That's a business that runs on certifications. My lack of respect for certifications comes from all the total hacks (right up to an including those who get people killed!) I've seen who have all the right certifications. Sure we take tests but what do they really prove?

Passing a farrier's test proves that on a particular day, the testee had the requisite knowledge and motor skills necessary to attain a passing grade. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't quite understand your SCUBA analogy, as I see it, a SCUBA test and a shoeing test have about as much in common as ice cream and frozen ***** matter - both are cold, but there the resemblance ends.

And then there's the attitude some have seemingly because they have a certification. In the case of the AFA test, I read the contents of the test and wonder how it would show evidence that I can do what my clients need me to do. I'm not new to this and I've seen the work of more than a few farriers. I see absolutely NO correlation between the quality of ones work and their level of certification. To me, it's a paper chase and marketing hogwash.

The AFA's tests test one's knowledge of equid anatomy and physiology, a bit of forgework, and shoeing to a standard. If you've got it, you can pass; if not, you can't. No big deal. As to paper chases and marketing, the former is a personal matter and the latter is non existent: the AFA has pushed meaningless contests for years instead of making Hortense Horseowner aware of the testing program.

Horse owners don't seem impressed by certifications and that seems to bother a bunch of people. I get a kick out of the trucks I see with AFA, CJF painted accoss the side.

I've been an AFA CJF since '83 and I sure as hell didn't test in order to impress anyone other than myself; with me, it's always personal. On another personal note, being an easily amused sort, I get a kick out of folks who denigrate the AFA's Journeyman test before demonstrating their ability to pass it - because their doing so absolutely reeks with the odor sour gräpes.

[Mike Ferrara]

Mike
I disagree with your statement here. If a person cannot do the job when he graduates from school then the school has not done their job. When I graduate, from any type of school, I expect to have the knowledge necessary to be able to go to work with the very minimun of OJT. (This of couse is as long as I have done my part in the learning process.) This does not mean I should know everything about the job but I should be able to perform basic taskes without any supervision.

In the Farrier industry upon leaving school I should have and need the knowledge necessary to be profecent with basic trims, shoeing, forging, and have a sound knowledge at least, of the anatomy of the horses lower limb. I also feel that I should be able to go take the AFA IC test and pass it. Further more I should have a good understanding on how to operate a small business, and a good understanding of customer service. If I can't do this, and I have applied myself in all that was thaught, then the school has failed to do what I paid them for.

Since there is no true OJT in the Farrier busness, the schools must fulfill this requirement as well. The schools need to ensure that I have the minumun knowledge and skills needed in order to hang my shingle out and go to work upon graduation.


Gary

Let me give some examples that might explain it better. In college I was taught stuff like electronics, Industrial controls and programming in addition to the gen-ed stuff. I initially went to work for a company that manufactured auotomotive controls, mostly switches. I had never seen one before (from the inside). I had no experience with the manufacturing processes, test processes or with the automotive industry in general. I had no experience with the specific equipment used by that company or in the way they did things. School gave me some of the nuts and bolts I needed to catch on in short order but it did not teach me to do ANY job. They didn't even know what kind of job I was going to have. How could they teach me to do it?

I recieved training in diving and dive training. I'd argue that dive training doesn't teach much beyond breathing under water but none of that training teaches the ins and outs of the dive business or in any way really prepared me to work in or own a dive shop. If you had seen me dive or teach when I first started started and again 5 years later, you would never even believe that you were looking at the same person. All that education just gave me enough background in diving and teaching to have a chance at figuring the rest out but it certainly did not teach me to "do a job".

I would imagine a horse shoeing school teaches the basics. You learn the tools, the basics of making a shoe, trimming a foot and nailing the shoe on. Are they going to teach you to shoe a gaited horse, draft horse, jumper or whatever? Can they really teach you all the details of dealing with every pathology that we come accross? Are they going to teach you to deal with goofy customers? Should they teach accounting, inventory control, investment stratagies or whatever like some have suggested? Certainly you need all those things in order to run your own business.

I've never had what you would call "on the job training", at least not in any formal way. In any job there's just a ton of things that you're expected to be able to learn and figure out on your own, or at least chart your own course through it.

[Mike Ferrara]

Mike, You dont think the initial education is any good and your against CE like the AFA certification program so how do they learn.

I don't think I'd say that initial education isn't good. I think that by it's nature that it's general leaving a lot still to learn.

I'm certainly not against continueing education. In fact I've spent a rather large percentage of my life on it thus far.

[Mike Ferrara]

Mike Ferrara in gray, massive deletia

I've never taken a test for any farrier association. I have a whole box of scuba and scuba instructor certifications though. I don't even know how many (30 or so maybe?). That's a business that runs on certifications. My lack of respect for certifications comes from all the total hacks (right up to an including those who get people killed!) I've seen who have all the right certifications. Sure we take tests but what do they really prove?

Passing a farrier's test proves that on a particular day, the testee had the requisite knowledge and motor skills necessary to attain a passing grade. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't quite understand your SCUBA analogy, as I see it, a SCUBA test and a shoeing test have about as much in common as ice cream and frozen ***** matter - both are cold, but there the resemblance ends.

First off, the only purpose of the scuba analogy is to relate some of my own experiences with "certifications" and their value.

And then there's the attitude some have seemingly because they have a certification. In the case of the AFA test, I read the contents of the test and wonder how it would show evidence that I can do what my clients need me to do. I'm not new to this and I've seen the work of more than a few farriers. I see absolutely NO correlation between the quality of ones work and their level of certification. To me, it's a paper chase and marketing hogwash.

The AFA's tests test one's knowledge of equid anatomy and physiology, a bit of forgework, and shoeing to a standard. If you've got it, you can pass; if not, you can't. No big deal. As to paper chases and marketing, the former is a personal matter and the latter is non existent: the AFA has pushed meaningless contests for years instead of making Hortense Horseowner aware of the testing program.

Horse owners don't seem impressed by certifications and that seems to bother a bunch of people. I get a kick out of the trucks I see with AFA, CJF painted accoss the side.

I've been an AFA CJF since '83 and I sure as hell didn't test in order to impress anyone other than myself; with me, it's always personal. On another personal note, being an easily amused sort, I get a kick out of folks who denigrate the AFA's Journeyman test before demonstrating their ability to pass it - because their doing so absolutely reeks with the odor sour gräpes.

I don't think I denegrate the AFA cetification any more than any other certification. LOL. As far as demonstrating my ability to pass it...well I just haven't found any relevance to my business. For the sake of discussion lets assume that I'd fail the test if I took it right this minute. Still, I spent the week in a barn full of saddlebreds comming up with my own specifications based on the requirements of vets, trainer(s), owners and the last farrier to service that account (who happens to be the guy who originally taught me). The opinions of all those people matter and in fact I can directly measure how much those opinions matter in dollars and cents. So far so good. Certainly I may need to continue learning in order to continue satisfying those people who's opinions matter. Even at that, the AFA CJF test doesn't seem like the best use of my time and resources to achieve that. If that ever changes I'll be the first in line. Does that sound like sour g****s? Seems more like a streight forward business decision to me. A degree, certification or any other piece of paper is something one usually gets in order to get in the door on a job when they have no work history in that field to reference. Once you're in the door and on the job the degree or cert just doesn't matter much.

[Mike Ferrara]

Well I don't blame you for being discourged, but change can be made if you're willing to help initiate it. I've never been the type to quit, or run away when things didn't go my way, and you don't sound like that type either. Right now would be a good time to join, and let your vote count.
Dave

When I decided to go back to shoeing full time I did join the AFA though at this point, I'm not sure I'm too happy about giving them more money to work with.

In all honesty and being realistic, I'm pretty busy with this career transition thing and getting up and going again. Unfortunately I just don't have the resources to participate much in the AFA or any of the other organizations I belong to. You know the saying "too busy making a living to live". Maybe if some of those guys spent more time shoeing horses and less time worrying about or trying to control what others are doing these other messes would just go away.

[Gary_Miller]

Let me give some examples that might explain it better. In college I was taught stuff like electronics, Industrial controls and programming in addition to the gen-ed stuff. I initially went to work for a company that manufactured auotomotive controls, mostly switches. I had never seen one before (from the inside). I had no experience with the manufacturing processes, test processes or with the automotive industry in general. I had no experience with the specific equipment used by that company or in the way they did things. School gave me some of the nuts and bolts I needed to catch on in short order but it did not teach me to do ANY job. They didn't even know what kind of job I was going to have. How could they teach me to do it?[/QUOTE
A college degree usually only gives you the basics required to go out and find a job working in the field the degree is in. I would agree it cannot give you alot of details on every aspect of the job. Those specificts you learn through OJT once your in the field. OJT can be as much as someone showing you what to do, explaning what to do, or through further CE study on a specific part or techneque.

[QUOTE=Mike Ferrara]I recieved training in diving and dive training. I'd argue that dive training doesn't teach much beyond breathing under water but none of that training teaches the ins and outs of the dive business or in any way really prepared me to work in or own a dive shop. If you had seen me dive or teach when I first started started and again 5 years later, you would never even believe that you were looking at the same person. All that education just gave me enough background in diving and teaching to have a chance at figuring the rest out but it certainly did not teach me to "do a job".
I'm sure when you first took dive training it was not so you could go out and get a job but for recreation and personnel enjoyment. Then you must of enjoyed it so much you decided to go get your instructor certificate so you could teach diving. Once again the basics needed to get started diving and teaching diving, by no means an expert. Thats all these courses was designed to do none of them even had in the curiculum or even suggested that they would prepare you work in or to open a dive shop. Once again OJT came into the picture, you learned the dive shop processes from someone else, you learned busness practices from someone else or by CE takinf some kind of busness class. All additional training needed after your basics in diving and dive instructing.

I would imagine a horse shoeing school teaches the basics. You learn the tools, the basics of making a shoe, trimming a foot and nailing the shoe on.
These items are the basic skills that need to be taught. There is also other basics that should be taught as well. Such as basic horsemanship, anatomy, common hoof problems, small business practices, customer relations, as well as many others needed to prepare you to open a busness upon graduation.

Are they going to teach you to shoe a gaited horse, draft horse, jumper or whatever?
My guess is the basics is just going to be a basic perimitor fit shoeing. These other disaplines could be part of the basic course or could be addtional courses offerd. A person could also learn this by CE, or OJT (riding along with someone experianced in these type disaplines.) If it were my school these would be addtional course offerings.

Can they really teach you all the details of dealing with every pathology that we come accross?
No, but you could and should cover most common.

Are they going to teach you to deal with goofy customers?
Yes in the customer relations segment of the course.

Should they teach accounting, inventory control, investment stratagies or whatever like some have suggested?
Yes, in the building a small busness segement of the course.

I've never had what you would call "on the job training", at least not in any formal way.
But you have had some form of OJT by being taught while working with others on the job. When you jump in someones truck and ride with them in order to learn you are having formal OJT.

In any job there's just a ton of things that you're expected to be able to learn and figure out on your own, or at least chart your own course through it.
Yes, but with out the basic education you would not have the back ground required to figure out the problem.


The point is the schools need to ensure that all aspects of the job is taught in order to prepare someone to graduate and step right in to the work force. A person comming out of a farrier school should be able to hang out his shingle and go to work. Since most farriers work by and for themselves there is no addtional training (OJT) after school available that would teach a person how to build a sucessful buisness, how to deal with customers as well as other things related to the field. Its unrealalistic to think that someone is going to graduate and then go ride with someone else for six months without a pay check. Its just not going to happen a person needs to make a living some how.

In this business its the schools that have the responsability to ensure their curiculum prepares each and every graduate to go out and start working right away. If it were my school each graduate would at the least have to pass the AFA Intern Classification requirements (the CF requirements would be better) or a test just like it in order to recieve a graduation certificate.


Gary

[J.H. shoeing]

Hey Tom

What did the CJF test consist of in 83? Was it the same as the test now?

Just curious.

Jeff

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

J.H. shoeing in gray

What did the CJF test consist of in 83? Was it the same as the test now?
Just curious.

The practical involved shoeing a horse to a published standard with hand forged shoes, clipped and quarter clipped, within two hours; there was no shoe board or bar shoe requirements; and the written test consisted entirely of essay questions, some of which are indelibly etched in my memory. :) (e.g., Give the origin, and insertion of all tendons distal to the scapula. Describe the functions of the suspensory ligament, including that of any bifurcations. List all bones, joints, and associated ligaments distal to the scapula. Name the vessels and describe blood flow below the fetlock., etc.)

Essay questions are difficult to grade objectively on a timely basis, so the AFA went to a multiple choice format in '84.

While the AFA had no requirement for a shoe board or a bar shoe to fit a pattern in '83, the TPFA required a testee who had passed the AFA Basic Test to pass four intermediate forging tests, several of which involved the forging of various shoes to fit a pattern (keg shoe alteration, hand forged shoes, welding and brazing, veterinary shoes) before taking the AFA Journeyman Test. (!) The six step process proved to be unwieldy and involved considerable duplication of effort, so the TPFA dropped the four intermediate requirements and the AFA added a bar shoe to fit in '84 and a shoe board sometime after '85.

I believe the test was probably a bit more difficult when I took it because of the essay questions, but I think the overall difficulty of the test is essentially unchanged.

[tbloomer]

I believe the test was probably a bit more difficult when I took it because of the essay questions, but I think the overall difficulty of the test is essentially unchanged.
For those who are good at taking written tests, I would expect multiple guess and true/false to be statistically far easier to pass than essay questions. I've often wondered why the AFA tests do not have diagrams where one is required to label the bones, ligaments, tendons, circulatory sytem, innervation, etc.

Tom Bloomer, CF

[Jason Maki]

When I went to Heartland Horseshoeing school, Run by the OH SO DANGEROUS Chris Gregory, thats exactly what we did for several tests. And the "origin and insertion" game with punitive pushups for those who were slow to insert the knowledge that originated from Chris and the PH II!
Walt is right, this guy is dangerous! He may actually teach the basic knowledge students need to think on their own! :o
Jason

[R.Revilinski]

Jason I know Chris Gregory, and your right he is dangerous, he knows how to teach, he teaches you to think for yourself, he tests his students and doesnt accept substandard work, wether it be the hands on work or the book work, why with people as highly skilled and concetionus as chris in this industry we are all in trouble. (For those of you who dont get jokes, that would be sarcasm I just used)

Tha AFA doesnt know what its talking about it never set foot in any of the schools, it has no clue as to what is taught and from reading other posts in the "political arena" (see the questions asked by Randy357) no one here including Rick can seem to bash the school they attended.
And yes walt had only a two week course in shoeing to begin with.

As for Dr. Butler and his curriculum every one who is bashing Dr. Butler should go back and read the original AFEC press release you will find the schools voted to adopt the P3 curriculum and that Dr Butler is working on testing modules available for the schools. Key word here VOTED ON not jammed down there throats, by a secret politburro hell bent on pushing thier personal agenda.

It is also my understanding from speaking with the spokesman Mr. Bob Smith of AFEC that it will be up too the individual school to (another key word coming up here so watch closely folks) CHOOSE to use the curriculum, again not rammed down the throats of schools.

Again bottom line the AFA has way overstepped its bounds and needs to be stopped and yes Rick I will be at the meeting in Omaha and yes Rick I have the brass to let these self centered, self absorbed, self righteous, sanctimonus, sons of female dogs now what I think of them and how I feel,
Show up at the meeting and watch your right it should be a good show.

This has gone on too long it affects to many people both members non members horse owners and horses to be taken lightly, if its retro 60s well to bad, a revolution needs to take place within in the AFA and if this tears down the AFA than like the phoenix hopefully something better will rise out of the ashes!

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=R.Revilinski]
>Tha AFA doesnt know what its talking about it never set foot in any of the schools, it has no clue as to what is taught

Assuming for the moment that this is true, Would not the "Farrier School Survey", the ONLY ACTION by any committee, authorized by the BOD be a logical first step in acquiring this understanding?


>and from reading other posts in the "political arena" (see the questions asked by Randy357) no one here including Rick can seem to bash the school they attended.

Say What? Did you actually read what I wrote? I would not say that my comments were exactly a ringing endorsement of the school I attended. Nor were they a complete dismemberment of that school. My comments were precisely whatt Randy357 asked about. Now, the one question that was not asked was "Do you/would you recommend this school to prospective farriers?"
My answer is a qualified, "No."

I hope that that is blunt and straightforward enough for even you.

>And yes walt had only a two week course in shoeing to begin with.

So?

>As for Dr. Butler and his curriculum every one who is bashing Dr. Butler should go back and read the original AFEC press release you will find the schools voted to adopt the P3 curriculum and that Dr Butler is working on testing modules available for the schools. Key word here VOTED ON not jammed down there throats, by a secret politburro hell bent on pushing thier personal agenda.

ROTFLAMO! The AFA(which is the target of that last utterance by Revilinski) is not ramming anything down anyone's throat. And that is true, right from the git-go. Talk about an inability to read for content in context and the subsequent mental ac*men required to uderstand and apply that which was read........

Why when I read the words " secret politburro(sic)" did an image of Dr. Chris Pollit riding an *** under the cover of night jump into my mind? Though unintentional, Double R(do you wrestle in the WWF under that name?) you have provided me with the laugh of the day.

And I've got news for you, Double R, the schools do indeed have their own agenda and a standardized curriculum based on one man's approach , backed up with written and practical exams designed by the same person(s) who wrote the book and curriculum, is indeed an agenda. So quit trying that sophistry. That dog won't hunt.

>It is also my understanding from speaking with the spokesman Mr. Bob Smith of AFEC that it will be up too the individual school to (another key word coming up here so watch closely folks) CHOOSE to use the curriculum, again not rammed down the throats of schools.

Again, ROTFLAMO! This is a page torn directly from the AFA playbook. They do say though that mimicry is the sincerest form of flattery.

>Again bottom line the AFA has way overstepped its bounds and needs to be stopped and yes Rick I will be at the meeting in Omaha

Will you be there as a member of the AFA, or just some whinny, crybaby outsider who has , because the AFA has good manners, been invited?

And, when and if the AFA(in so many words) tells you to perform an hermaphroditic act, are you going to come whining and crying back to these forums to complain about the "Big, Bad, AFA"?

>and yes Rick I have the brass to let these self centered, self absorbed, self righteous, sanctimonus, sons of female dogs now what I think of them and how I feel,

You did mean "Know", right? And, since some might opine that "it takes one to know one", why not save the money by staying home and just ranting into the mirror?

Show up at the meeting and watch your right it should be a good show.

As I have, several times, previously noted, I have a contractual agreement that precludes my attendance at the meeting.

>This has gone on too long it affects to many people both members non members horse owners and horses to be taken lightly,

If, by "This", you mean the current state of farrier education in the United States, and the relatively low level of competence exhibited by many graduates from this system, then you are exactly correct. And you have the AFA to thank for bringing it to the level that people are paying attention and at last starting to try and do something about it. For, as with E.F.Hutton, "When the AFA speaks, people listen...."


>if its retro 60s well to bad, a revolution needs to take place within in the AFA and if this tears down the AFA than like the phoenix hopefully something better will rise out of the ashes!

The revolution is not occuring within the AFA. Were your blinders removed, you would be able to see that.

And, like it or not, within the next several months there will be a change within the political leadership of the AFA. And it will occur in an orderly manner irrespective of the rantings of the current crop of dissidents.

Don't be suprised if the leadership shows up wearing "I feel your pain" buttons.

And remember, if you stay and attend the BOD meeting, and you are not a member of the BOD, then you are, like a little child, to be seen and not heard. That is of course unless someone in a position to do so, recognizes you and you are granted permission to address the board.

Your opportunity to speak will be during the meeting held prior to the BOD meeting. Say what you have to say, vent your spleen, shine in all your glorious splendor, do whatever. Just get it said on Friday because Saturday is not your day.

And, should it occur that on Saturday at the BOD meeting, you are asked to leave, you do so in a gentlemanly(or womanly) manner rather than in a boorish , contemptible manner that could bring any further dishonor on you or anyone else.

[Dave Purves]

Here's a little example of the "quality" of work, done by a recent graduate of an 8 week shoeing school, and believe it or not, he's very proud of his hand-made shoes. Look at this and tell me that the current curriculum is OK, or even close to being a decent standard.
Dave

[Dave Purves]

Even better, here is foot from a different horse, done by the same farrier. Do you notice anything similar about the medial heels of the two feet?
Dave

[Gary_Miller]

I'm not really sure about this but I going to take a stab at this.

It look to me that the medal heel of the foot is still to long and the shoe is not sitting on the foot square, evedint by more overhang of the shoe on the lateral side than the medal side. The shoe is also not geometricly shaped the medal heel of the shoe is kicked in more than the lateral.

Gary

[R.Revilinski]

Wow this forum has now stooped to a new pathetic low,

Criticizing the work of others who are not available to defend themselves,

I was taught never criticize another shoer's work,
1) you dont know how many horses he did that day
2) you dont know if the horse before this one or this on in particular tried to bite kick or stomp his head off
3) until you have done a perfect job dont open your mouth
4) bad mouthing another farriers work will come back to bite your butt.

Sorry guys this is way over the line and is no longer a discussion, whether we agree disagree or feed people like Rick ammo is one thing but to belittle someone elses work..............is not right

[Dave Purves]

I would agree with you, if I had used the guys name. But I didn't. And I'm not really using this to belittle anyone, I'm using this to demonstrate the ability of newely graduated farriers that are sent out to make a living with skills like this.

Dave

[Dave Purves]

1) you dont know how many horses he did that day

does it matter?
[/QUOTE]
2) you dont know if the horse before this one or this on in particular tried to bite kick or stomp his head off[/QUOTE]

I would be surprised if this particular horse did, as it almost fell asleep for me, but I'm sure it could've happened. But then instead of doing a ****py job, I would personally just refuse to do the job at all.
[/QUOTE]3) until you have done a perfect job dont open your mouth[/QUOTE]

I assume that is rhetorical, as there is probably no such thing as "a perfect job", and I'm sure that anyone disagreeing with you is incapable of such in your eyes
[/QUOTE]
4) bad mouthing another farriers work will come back to bite your butt.[/QUOTE]

I didn't post those pictures to bad mouth anyone, merely demonstrate the quality of work of at least one recent graduate of one privately owned institution. I'm sure many grads out of school do much better work, but let's be honest, what is the rate of "failure" in these schools? How many students just don't cut the mustard? How many people have you heard of that failed shoeing school? I've hear of plenty that have failed out of college, or at least failed one course in college, but never heard of anyone failing out of farrier school, why is that? Could it possibly be because most farrier schools don't require you to have a basic knowledge or skill before you leave? If you can handle the required time in school you pass regardless? You must have the answer.

[/QUOTE]Sorry guys this is way over the line and is no longer a discussion, whether we agree disagree or feed people like Rick ammo is one thing but to belittle someone elses work..............is not right[/QUOTE]

As I stated before, I left the farriers name out of the post as to not hurt anyones feelings (except yours obviously). In fact, the farrier in question has since called me to see how I shod this particular horse and is now riding with me once a week. I only hope I can help him. I also have his permission to post these pictures.

Dave

[Gary_Miller]

Richard
I agree with Dave no etiquet has been breeched here. No names have been mentioned. Only a couple of pictures of a shoe on a hoof.
Now don't tell me that you never look at a shoe job and in your mind critice the job, good or bad.

Besides it a good learning tool for people like me. If one never knows what a bad shoe job is then how can one know a good one.

So Dave how was my observation?

Gary

[Dave Purves]

Gary, pretty much on the money. I like to call this "right handed farriers disease". These two horses were both done this way, the feet all flared to the left or near side of the horse. The owner wasn't concerned until he noticed that one of the feet, was half black and half white, the line seperating the two was curved with the flare. It was pretty neat, as the color seperation is split right down the middle of the dorsal hoofwall, and about 2 1/2 inches from the ground surface was flared to the near side of the horse.

Dave

[Dave Purves]

I'm looking for the pics I took after I did the feet. Can't find them now but I will, and post them.
Dave

[Gary_Miller]

Dave
Do you have pictures of the out side of the hoof with the flairs. It would really help me to understand what happened if I could see them also.

Gary

[Dave Purves]

I've only got one that is clear, even thought the foot is still dirty, you can see the flare.

Dave

[Dave Purves]

Here's another view

Dave

[Rick Burten]

While I am relatively sure that the forums will now be inundated with pictures of what some would consider inferior work, and that work will probably be attributed to members of the AFA who are either CFs or CJFs, it changes not one iota that IMNTBCHO that is some pretty substandard work. Even the little bit we can see of the solar portion of the hoof shows some trimming that is questionable. The front view, tells us more of the story.

Posting pictures of hoof work for evaluation or critique without naming the individual responsible for the work, is merely an illustrative method of (potentially) furthering other's education at no one's expense.

Those of us who choose to post pictures of our own work, under our own names, do so with the clear recognition that we may or may not "suffer the slings and arrows of ourtrageous fortune"(criticism?). But we do it anyway. Why, so that others and perhaps we ourselves can learn.

We often see anonymously prepared feet used by the BUA movement to further their goal of completely discrediting farriers and the application of various and sundry orthotics. Most of us don't like it, and are quick to point out that these examples are the exception rather than the rule.

In this case, Dave posted pictures of hooves prepared by a recent farrier school graduate , with the permission of that farrier, and of which that farrier is quite proud. And, why shouldn't he be. After all, I'm sure the instructor(s) at the school from which he graduated told him how great his work is. And that being the case(why would the farrier be proud of his work if the instructors had not been?) no further indictment of the system is really necessary.

I suppose the true test of how you feel about the examples presented is to ask yourself this(rhetorical?) question: "Would I trim a foot and nail on that shoe just as has been done?" Your answer will be illustrative.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
In fact, lets do an unscientific poll, right here, right now.

Question: "Based on the information provided and your own powers of intuition, perception, knowledge and ability, would you trim the foot in either example and and nail on those shoes precisely as it has been done in those examples?"

Only "Yes" or "No" answers are acceptible. There is no equivocating allowed.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll be the first to answer the question and sign my real first and last names(and appropriate appellation(s) ) to my answer.

Answer: "NO!"

Rick Burten, CJF, RMF

[Gary_Miller]

Dave
Those were great.

Thanks
Gary

[ray steele]

While looking at the pictures themselves indicate a less than adaquate synopsis of the shoeing protocol, I would caution all that, no time frame, ie time of picture vs time since application of steel has been addressed.

seems to me that those posting comments should have all the criteria before posting comments.

it's one of the great things about shoeing, everyone has one, comments that is!

Regards

Ray Steele

[calshoer]

As for Dr. Butler and his curriculum every one who is bashing Dr. Butler should go back and read the original AFEC press release you will find the schools voted to adopt the P3 curriculum and that Dr Butler is working on testing modules available for the schools. Key word here VOTED ON not jammed down there throats, by a secret politburro hell bent on pushing thier personal agenda.
And I've got news for you, Double R, the schools do indeed have their own agenda and a standardized curriculum based on one man's approach , backed up with written and practical exams designed by the same person(s) who wrote the book and curriculum, is indeed an agenda. So quit trying that sophistry. That dog won't hunt.

The agenda of that particular group of educators is VERY clear...protect Dr Butler, guarantee he will sell lots of books, and protect poor innocent students from having to consider that there may be other good shoeing protocols available besides just Butler's theories. It should be just called the Butler agenda.

Its OK though. That way,with a group of schools that advertize that the yare in kahoots to teach from ONLY ONE man's book, prospective students can easily discern between schools that adhere to a very limited (and a lot outdated) view , and those schools that choose to include any NEW science for a broader and modern perspective. The students can choose whether to learn only OLD, limited, stuff or a more complete, open curriculum that includes more NEW stuff .
I already know two schools that will not be participating in their little club.

The idea that the test protocols will be written by the author of the only accepted text for that little band of butlerbuttkissers smacks of conflict of interest. But Thats OK... Because SMART prospective students will see through it.
But then again, maybe prospective students won't know the difference because the butlerbuttkisser group will also be trying to propagandize the general public that only a butlerbuttkisser graduate is qualified to shoe their horses. That is definitely NOT ok.

Patty

[calshoer]

Oh and since we are placing pics of other peoples work now, (no names of course) just to show this works both ways, here is a horse shod by an AFA journeymen, clinician and examiner. Perimeter fit just like the guy always did in all the contests he entered , and toe running out to who knows where because of it. .
I KNEW this horse and he did have terrible weak feet but I shod this horse for awhile before this and the toes did NOT look like that.
This was at about two weeks out from his last shoeing. he had pulled the shoe for the second time in that amount of time and they asked me to nail it on exactly where it had set. So I did. Didn't rasp anything just used the old nail holes. So it looks exactly like it had the day before the shoe fell off.
I also followed behind this fellow on several other cases .One looked just like this ,had been purchased cheap because he was "rein lame" and was stumbling so bad with this guys shoeing he fell in the dressage arana. He would wear the toes of his shoes out in three weeks so the guy placed him in titanium, that is when he fell after he got a few weeks growth. I reshod him in aluminum NB shoes, and he never tripped again his scores went up a whole point and the lady was offered fifty thoudsand for the horse a a year later.
An AFA journeyman certification meant diddly squat to these horses. It was not helping them at all. Patty

[Dave Purves]

Oh and since we are placing pics of other peoples work now, (no names of course) just to show this works both ways, here is a horse shod by an AFA journeymen, clinician and examiner. Patty


What do you mean, this goes both ways? Did I somehow attach those pictures to you, or your beliefs? Did I in anyway, say this particular farrier was steeped in NB principals?

Once again, in unison:
Those pictures were merely a demonstration of one particular recent graduates work. They were only posted to show they level of competence that this particular recent grad, has. It is in no way a representation of NB.

Once again, in unison:
I personally don't believe that the AFA should be involved in the initial educational process of farriers. However, the announcement of the AFA's proposal to survey the schools seems to have sparked a fire under the school owners butts and they have decided to at least standardize the ciriculum. You'll have to take up the whole, Butler thing with the schools. That's not the AFA, that is the school owners.

Dave

[Dave Purves]

While looking at the pictures themselves indicate a less than adaquate synopsis of the shoeing protocol, I would caution all that, no time frame, ie time of picture vs time since application of steel has been addressed.

seems to me that those posting comments should have all the criteria before posting comments.

it's one of the great things about shoeing, everyone has one, comments that is!

Regards

Ray Steele

Sorry Ray, you're right, I should've posted that information, I really wasn't expecting anyone to comment on the shoeing itself, but the result of education.

It's my understanding that those shoes had been on for approx. 5 weeks. I don't know for sure, as I was not there when they were applied. I hope that helps you.
Dave

[Rick Burten]

>Oh and since we are placing pics of other peoples work now, (no names of course) just to show this works both ways, here is a horse shod by an AFA journeymen, clinician and examiner. Perimeter fit just like the guy always did in all the contests he entered , and toe running out to who knows where because of it. .
I KNEW this horse and he did have terrible weak feet but I shod this horse for awhile before this and the toes did NOT look like that.

You wouldn't happen to have any photos of this horse from when you were attending to its needs would you? Why'd you stop shoeing him?

Also, its a bit hard to tell from the photo, but has the toe of that shoe been rolled back? What kind of shoe was actually used? It appears from the photo that the heel support has been adequately supplied, and I know you are not against the use of wedges. Is there frog support either under the pad or on the ground surface of the pad? If indeed the toe of the shoe has been relieved/rolled back, then where is the breakover located and how different is that from where you would have located it? Are there any other exigent cir***stances that would account for the manner in which the horse appears to be shod?

>This was at about two weeks out from his last shoeing. he had pulled the shoe for the second time in that amount of time and they asked me to nail it on exactly where it had set. So I did. Didn't rasp anything just used the old nail holes. So it looks exactly like it had the day before the shoe fell off.

How has the horse been doing since then?

>I also followed behind this fellow on several other cases .One looked just like this ,had been purchased cheap because he was "rein lame" and was stumbling so bad with this guys shoeing he fell in the dressage arana. He would wear the toes of his shoes out in three weeks so the guy placed him in titanium, that is when he fell after he got a few weeks growth. I reshod him in aluminum NB shoes, and he never tripped again his scores went up a whole point and the lady was offered fifty thoudsand for the horse a a year later.

Ummm, scores going up one point are usually considered statistically insignificant in dressage circles 'round these parts. Five points, or six, or more, now that is significant and something to take note of. What else, besides the shoeing, changed during that year? At what level was the horse showing when he was sold?

An AFA journeyman certification meant diddly squat to these horses. It was not helping them at all. Patty

No one has ever claimed that the certifications could or would mean anything to the horses(especially since they lack the requesite brain structure to interpret let alone understand what is involved). It does reflect that at one time, the person possessed the requisite skill and knowledge to accomplish a rather difficult task. what that person has chosen to do since that time is a matter for his/her conscience.

Now, I thought we weren't going to play the "I followed the CF/CJF farrier and I did a better job" line of reasoning or aggrandization.

We've all read the anecdotes about NB shoers, AFA shoers, Guild shoers, BWFA shoers, non-affiliated shoers. So what? They prove NOTHING.

Truthfully now, have you never been less than successful applying the NBS protocol? Has there never been even one instance when a different farrier was called in and using his/her methods had better success than you? Or, as Strasser thought she was/is(?) to the barefoot movement, have you and NBS become the ONE TRUE WAY of the farrier industry?

[R.Revilinski]

Well I have to say I am a big enough person to admit when I am wrong and I must say to all here I have been wrong.

Once again after going through a number of posts on here I find that my concerns about the AFA taking over the farrier industry are unfounded after seeing how you folks cant seem to keep on one subject and how obviously insecure you all are and how your whole purpose seems to be to rip each other down to build yourselves up, I must say that the AFA will eat itself from the inside out and it wont be a concern to any one.
Rick I belive you claim to have suggested the thinning out of the BoD would that be correct?
Well if the BoD are as big a bunch of pretentious arrogant egotistical maniacs as what I have seen here then you made the right suggestion.

[Phil Armitage]

Well I have to say I am a big enough person to admit when I am wrong and I must say to all here I have been wrong.

Once again after going through a number of posts on here I find that my concerns about the AFA taking over the farrier industry are unfounded after seeing how you folks cant seem to keep on one subject and how obviously insecure you all are and how your whole purpose seems to be to rip each other down to build yourselves up, I must say that the AFA will eat itself from the inside out and it wont be a concern to any one.
Rick I belive you claim to have suggested the thinning out of the BoD would that be correct?
Well if the BoD are as big a bunch of pretentious arrogant egotistical maniacs as what I have seen here then you made the right suggestion.


Mr. R. Revilinski, is this your real name? If it is then I apologize for asking, if it is not then please be bigger enough to reveal your identity. I really do not care if someone reveals there identity, however in your case, you have made some pretty strong comments, some make sense, now lets see how much you believe in them.

[calshoer]

Dave: What do you mean, this goes both ways? Did I somehow attach those pictures to you, or your beliefs? Did I in anyway, say this particular farrier was steeped in NB principals?
NO, you DIDN'T. I never even thought you were talking about NB, Geesh.
NB was NOT the point.
. I was talking about CERTIFICATION, and how it can be absolutely USELESS at any level if the farrier doesn't understand the FOOT. Whic happens eve at TOPlevels. THIS guy is an AFA TESTER.
SORRY if you misunderstood. Now, was that more clear?
Patty

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

calshoer in gray

Oh and since we are placing pics of other peoples work now, (no names of course) just to show this works both ways, here is a horse shod by an AFA journeymen, clinician and examiner. Perimeter fit just like the guy always did in all the contests he entered , and toe running out to who knows where because of it.

With all due respect, I can't tell from a single picture what somebody started with and neither can anyone else. For all I know the horse's feet looked a helluva lot worse a few weeks ago.

I KNEW this horse and he did have terrible weak feet but I shod this horse for awhile before this and the toes did NOT look like that.

You "knew" this horse? One wonders why the horse's connections chose to put somebody else under the horse. Perhaps they were unable to recognize they were in the midst of greatness. :)

This was at about two weeks out from his last shoeing. he had pulled the shoe for the second time in that amount of time and they asked me to nail it on exactly where it had set. So I did. Didn't rasp anything just used the old nail holes. So it looks exactly like it had the day before the shoe fell off.

I've never seen a shoe "fall off". Have you?

I also followed behind this fellow on several other cases .One looked just like this ,had been purchased cheap because he was "rein lame" and was stumbling so bad with this guys shoeing he fell in the dressage arana. He would wear the toes of his shoes out in three weeks so the guy placed him in titanium, that is when he fell after he got a few weeks growth. I reshod him in aluminum NB shoes, and he never tripped again his scores went up a whole point and the lady was offered fifty thoudsand for the horse a a year later. An AFA journeyman certification meant diddly squat to these horses. It was not helping them at all.

Doubtless, your self-proclaimed superior abilities and adherence to the scientifically untested NB protocols have once again enabled you to dive deeper into farriery's waters and come up drier - and we have your word on that. On the other hand, a skeptic like myself might note that all your self-aggrandizing anecdotes are unsubstantiated, NB is invariably touted as a piece of farriery's One True Cross, and you usually manage to be the hero while some ignorant doofus of an AFA Journeyman gets NB sand kicked in his face.

Your gratuitous denigration of folks who've passed tests you haven't brings to mind Queen Gertridue's words to Hamlet: "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

[calshoer]

Rick asked: You wouldn't happen to have any photos of this horse from when you were attending to its needs would you? Why'd you stop shoeing him?
I have to be careful so as not to inadvertantly reveal the identity of the other farrier but he was on contract with the stable and they just used me to fill in. I did the horse a couple of times when the first got him bcause the other guy was travelling. Sorry no pics I wasn't taking pictures so much back then it was ten years ago. The feet WERE terrible but belive me I had those toes a lot less run out. Thing is this is not the only horse he did that looked like this...it was fairly common in his work.
Also, its a bit hard to tell from the photo, but has the toe of that shoe been rolled back? What kind of shoe was actually used? It appears from the photo that the heel support has been adequately supplied, and I know you are not against the use of wedges. Is there frog support either under the pad or on the ground surface of the pad? If indeed the toe of the shoe has been relieved/rolled back, then where is the breakover located and how different is that from where you would have located it? Are there any other exigent cir***stances that would account for the manner in which the horse appears to be shod?
It was a Equithotics sneaker and a big wedge pad stacked on top. Stable used a lot of those I won't say why it could reveal the farrier. Same package I used on him but I turned the sneakers around so the square "heel" end was in front and I ground off the toe for more breakover. I set it back further too. This one is set the 'right way' round, and only set back to the whiteline. There is adequate heel support,and the frog si right down on the pad. That was not the problem, it was the toe fit that was the big issue. This fellow would NOT set a toe back where it belonged and they ran forward. No other cir***stances for the shoeing except the stable insisted on Sneakers, and the incredibly weak feet necessating the wedge pads. How has the horse been doing since then?I have no idea. I did not do him after that and they got someone else to do the whole barn when they renewed their shoeing contract.

Ummm, scores going up one point are usually considered statistically insignificant in dressage circles 'round these parts. Five points, or six, or more, now that is significant and something to take note of. What else, besides the shoeing, changed during that year? At what level was the horse showing when he was sold?
I guess I wasn't clear...I mean like from mid 5's to high 6's. Or low 6's to mid 7's. (not say 5.4 to 5.5 ) I think a WHOLE point is a lot especially when it is an almost immediate change. I don't know the exact numbers I just remember her telling me how much the horse improved .
He was at training or first level when she got him, and went to third level in just a couple of years. She was offered the money somewhere in the middle of that climb but she kept him. She didn't need the money. Nothing else changed except she continued the training and it was same trainer all along.
That lady was one of my first three NB clients ten years ago, a vet referral, and I shod for her until I moved three years ago and my former apprentice still shoes for her.

Patty Now, I thought we weren't going to play the "I followed the CF/CJF farrier and I did a better job" line of reasoning or aggrandization.
Well I just couoldn't help myself since this discussion was about AFA, certiifcations, schools and and all. Since the method I have used very sucessfully for ten years is not going to be allowed in the strictly Butler based schools.
Truthfully now, have you never been less than successful applying the NBS protocol?
Truthfully ,aside from the usual severe laminitis cases that everyone fails occasionally, I can count on one hand the "failures" with NB in ten years using it. Four of them when I was still learning the technique and made some of the same mistakes I hear about here, (usually in trimming) and one when the client failed to inform me until after the shoeing the horse "had that broken bone in his foot.....I forget which one the vet said it was".
Oh and of course there are the very occasional NON NB mistakes like nail pricks or trim a toe corner too close or things like that which everyone who has ever shod a horse has done sometimes.Things not at all due to NB, but operator error. So yes ,NB has proven (for me) to be the very best ,most consistant protocol , hands down. At least in my hands.
Patty

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

calshoer in gray, massive deletia

Truthfully ,aside from the usual severe laminitis cases that everyone fails occasionally, I can count on one hand the "failures" with NB in ten years using it... So yes ,NB has proven (for me) to be the very best ,most consistant protocol , hands down. At least in my hands.

Your inclusion of, "At least in my hands", validates your statement.

Since your epiphany, have you trimmed/shod any speed horses or jumpers? I ask because their performance can be readily and objectively quantified. If so, has your application of NB principles uniformly improved the performance of these horses?

In my experience, anybody can shoe a good horse - but it takes a helluva hand to occasionally move a claimer from $7,500 to $10,000 or make a winner out of a barrel horse that's consistently been a few hundredths out of the money.

[Mike Ferrara]

Since plenty of people in all professions do lousy work even though they are from great schools a sample size of "one" isn't going to tell us anything about the school.

For instance if we could state a percentage of gradutes that routinely made the same mistakes we might be on to something. If we could then correlate the mistake to an identifyable attribute of the instruction we'd really have something. Daves picture might suggest that schools don't teach students to level the foot. Or is it that they don't get enough practice or don't see enough feet to train their eye? Assuming that the foot actually looked like that when it was shod, would the school give a passing grade to that work? I don't have any idea which is why I asked questions rather than making statements. I will say that I'm more concerned with all the big schools turning out lousy MBA's LOL.

[R.Revilinski]

I have noticed that anyone in here that posts anything that contains a strong opinion against the AFA or anything controversial about the AFA is subject to quite a bit of abuse, especially about the name or gender, I find that quite childish and would expect such antics from grandchildren but even they are above that.

Go throug and read posts where people have used obviously fals names such irnwrker, irnwrker2, handandhammer and assorted others you will notice that the only time a name and or gender is drawn into question is when they adamantley oppose the AFA and its pathetic thinly veiled attempts to be the controlling force behind the farrier industry,

Yes Phil that is my name I am a born and bred south side polack, I like Da Bulls, Da Bears, and Da cubs, I eat polish sausage and drink beer, now if you would like to make some cracks about my ethnic heritage feel free to do so as I have a million of them also.

So now I ask is Ricks name really Rick?

Is Phils name really Phil?

Is Tom names really Tom?

Is calshoers name really Calshoer?

I could go on and on but as Rhett Butler would say Frankly my dear I dont give a dam

[Phil Armitage]

I have noticed that anyone in here that posts anything that contains a strong opinion against the AFA or anything controversial about the AFA is subject to quite a bit of abuse, especially about the name or gender, I find that quite childish and would expect such antics from grandchildren but even they are above that.

Go throug and read posts where people have used obviously fals names such irnwrker, irnwrker2, handandhammer and assorted others you will notice that the only time a name and or gender is drawn into question is when they adamantley oppose the AFA and its pathetic thinly veiled attempts to be the controlling force behind the farrier industry,

Yes Phil that is my name I am a born and bred south side polack, I like Da Bulls, Da Bears, and Da cubs, I eat polish sausage and drink beer, now if you would like to make some cracks about my ethnic heritage feel free to do so as I have a million of them also.

So now I ask is Ricks name really Rick?

Is Phils name really Phil?

Is Tom names really Tom?

Is calshoers name really Calshoer?

I could go on and on but as Rhett Butler would say Frankly my dear I dont give a dam

Okay just asking. :) Hey bash the AFA all you want, I have done my fair share. Does it help, I don't think it does. Any time I have trashed them on here I have never heard or seen where I have triggered any improvement. So as far as I am concerned me spouting off is just as affective as passing gas, acutally offensive. Not that I don't get reliefe either way, how do you spell relief?

[Gary Hill]

Relief. No "e" on the end. You asked? Gary

[R.Revilinski]

Phil I wouyld spell relief IMPEACHMENT but the bylaws have been so watered down and of course the constitution tossed out that members really have no way to get rid of the strangle hold of power mongers, until the election, I hope the membership doesnt let the AFA down as it has in the past.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

R.Revilinski in gray

I have noticed that anyone in here that posts anything that contains a strong opinion against the AFA or anything controversial about the AFA is subject to quite a bit of abuse, especially about the name or gender,

I've posted the reasons why I'm not a member of the AFA's and nobody threatened me with bodily harm, inferred "Stovall" was a funny name, or implied I was a sissy.

I find that quite childish and would expect such antics from grandchildren but even they are above that.

Your expectations are no doubt extremely important to you - but they are as important to me as distant mouse flatulence.

Go throug and read posts where people have used obviously fals names such irnwrker, irnwrker2, handandhammer and assorted others you will notice that the only time a name and or gender is drawn into question is when they adamantley oppose the AFA and its pathetic thinly veiled attempts to be the controlling force behind the farrier industry,

Hot damn, I do love a conspiracy! But, perhaps you might benefit from re-reading a few posts from folks posting anonymously and the responses they elicited, this time for content

Yes Phil that is my name I am a born and bred south side polack, I like Da Bulls, Da Bears, and Da cubs, I eat polish sausage and drink beer, now if you would like to make some cracks about my ethnic heritage feel free to do so as I have a million of them also.

If you are ashamed of your family name, that's your business, but unless you're notorious or a celebrity, the monomial "Phil" is indicative of your desire for anonymity, not identification. Besides, anybody who admits to being a Cubs fan in more to be scorned than pitied. :)

[...]

Is Tom names really Tom?

This particular Tom's name is Tom Stovall, I sign every post, and I'm not hard to find. I understand that folks who post anonymously have their own reasons, but I think anybody who showers down on somebody or something without having the testicular fortitude to sign their post is living somewhere on the south side of cowardice, just beneath contempt.

I could go on and on but as Rhett Butler would say Frankly my dear I dont give a dam

Scarlett will be devastated.

[Phil Armitage]

Relief. No "e" on the end. You asked? Gary

Thanks Gary, I corrected it. Good one :D

[R.Revilinski]

Ok Tom well I really dont see or care what your response has to do with anything but again I think your opinions are simply ummmm how would one say this ..........lets see ****** yep that would be a good word I dont care what you think or say I also know you are not a member of the AFA but you like Rick love the controversy you are impressed with yourself and the CJF behind your name and as long as that is what keeps your self esteem up have at it.

Your opinions and trhe opinions of others about me my name my gender my writing and whatever else it is that you would like to talk about do not negate the fact that the AFA has pulled the wool over everyones eyes and has underhandedly tried to cram the ideas of a few down the throats of many, the fact still reamins that these people need to go.

So you and your buddies here have your fun show off your vocabulary and banter about meaningless things because while you distartct these conversations from thier purpose the AFA is working its slimy little butts off to control this industry.

Perhaps like Nero you will play your violin and catch your tears in a glass while Rome burns.

[Dave Purves]

Dave:
NO, you DIDN'T. I never even thought you were talking about NB, Geesh.
NB was NOT the point.
. I was talking about CERTIFICATION, and how it can be absolutely USELESS at any level if the farrier doesn't understand the FOOT. Whic happens eve at TOPlevels. THIS guy is an AFA TESTER.
SORRY if you misunderstood. Now, was that more clear?
Patty

Yes Patty, that is more clear, however, I thought we were talking about initial farrier education, not certification. Maybe I missed something but I don't understand how certification coinicides with initial education.
sorry if I misunderstood
Dave

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

R.Revilinski in gray

Ok Tom well I really dont see or care what your response has to do with anything but again I think your opinions are simply ummmm how would one say this ..........lets see ****** yep that would be a good word

"******?" Is that what passes for witty repartee at your end of the sandbox? Nothing about the träpeze, the rutabagas, the Wesson Oil, the feather boa, or the dwarves?

I dont care what you think or say I also know you are not a member of the AFA but you like Rick love the controversy you are impressed with yourself and the CJF behind your name and as long as that is what keeps your self esteem up have at it.

I'm proud of the CJF, it didn't come easy - but my self-esteem is linked to things you wouldn't understand, like taking personal responsibility for everything I do.

Your opinions and trhe opinions of others about me my name my gender my writing and whatever else it is that you would like to talk about do not negate the fact that the AFA has pulled the wool over everyones eyes and has underhandedly tried to cram the ideas of a few down the throats of many, the fact still reamins that these people need to go.

Allow me to correct your misconception: I would have great difficulty in expressing my disinterest in your name, rank, or serial number - but I find it amusing that anyone too gutless to sign his (her?) posts would believe anyone would take anything they say seriously. If you don't have the courage to take personal responsibility for your personal convictions, why should anyone else?

So you and your buddies here have your fun show off your vocabulary and banter about meaningless things

If the polysyllabic stuff continues to give you trouble, please avail yourself to a dictionary or ask any junior high student for help.

because while you distartct these conversations from thier purpose the AFA is working its slimy little butts off to control this industry.

Speaking of distractions, "...slimy little butts?" If your ad hominem attack is based on personal knowledge, I can certainly understand your choosing to post anonymously. :)

[R.Revilinski]

You know Tom your last post proves what I am saying, you didnt even address the issue at hand instead you decided to cut and paste only the things that you can use to try and cut a person down with that Tom is ******ity.

Yes Tom ****** is the word I used to describe your comments, I see no reason to try and hide the truth about ****** comments behind flowing prose, real simple theory here, if it smells like dung its dung, this whole mess the AFA has created smells like dung therefore it is dung.

As for taking responsibility it seems my name is at the top of every post, so I have claimed responsibility.

You need to ride your high moral horse into the AFA meeting in Omaha and tell not only the AFA leadership about responsibility but also the general membership the members fell asleep and now need to take responsibility for thier actions by going to Omaha and changing the irresponsible leadership they have allowed to run rough shod over this orginiztion.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

R.Revilinski in gray

You know Tom your last post proves what I am saying, you didnt even address the issue at hand instead you decided to cut and paste only the things that you can use to try and cut a person down with that Tom is ******ity.

Sir (Madam?), you will note that I've refrained from any ad hominem attacks on your strident, androgynous, self - although such an easy target is tempting.

Yes Tom ****** is the word I used to describe your comments, I see no reason to try and hide the truth about ****** comments behind flowing prose, real simple theory here, if it smells like dung its dung, this whole mess the AFA has created smells like dung therefore it is dung.

Allow me to give you a little lesson in logic: Before you can say something is so because something else is so, you must first demonstrate the validity of your premise. In this case, I don't know that the AFA has created a "mess" because all I've seen is controversy resultant of speculation, conjecture, and innuendo. Controversy is not necessarily based on "truth." Before you leap into the fray, you might ask yourself who is fanning the flames and who stands to gain if the fire engulfs the AFA. As I see it, when speculating on motivation, it's always a good idea to follow the money.

As for taking responsibility it seems my name is at the top of every post, so I have claimed responsibility.

Right.

You need to ride your high moral horse into the AFA meeting in Omaha and tell not only the AFA leadership about responsibility but also the general membership the members fell asleep and now need to take responsibility for thier actions by going to Omaha and changing the irresponsible leadership they have allowed to run rough shod over this orginiztion.

I'm not going to Omaha for the most selfish of reasons: an AFA members' squabble with management will not affect me, one way or another. If you feel it will affect you, I urge you to go and make your feelings known, but I would counsel you to avoid the ad hominem stuff. Calling management "irresponsible" and claiming they've "run roughshod" over the membership is an ad hominem fallacy and will rightfully cause them to turn a deaf ear to your pleas; on the other hand, by delineating those acts you feel are irresponsible and may have an adverse effect on the organization, you might be able to state your case in a compelling manner.

[R.Revilinski]

Tom I thank you from the bottom of my heart, for not giving into temptation and attacking me, you will never know how much it means to me to have been spared by you.

As for what you have seen, is controversy, innuendo and no facts I suggest you do a little reading starting with "walts thoughts" move into the mike miller report, then jump to Henry Hemyrings letter and get a copy of the report by Charlie Caldwell, that should be enough to bring you up to speed on the mess that the AFA has created.

Also I dont want to be picky here, but I noticed the little shall we say "Freudian Slip" in the phrase "an AFA members squabble with management" you inadvertantly are right on the money they want to be the managers of the farrier industry

Thanks again for proving me right you truly are a wealth of knowledge and information,

as for you not going to Omaha that is your choice and I respect that.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

R.Revilinski in gray, deletia

As for what you have seen, is controversy, innuendo and no facts I suggest you do a little reading starting with "walts thoughts" move into the mike miller report, then jump to Henry Hemyrings letter and get a copy of the report by Charlie Caldwell, that should be enough to bring you up to speed on the mess that the AFA has created.

What mess? Embezzlement? Malfeasance? Did somebody get caught in the wrong bed? Or, did the mere thought of licensing cause a bunch of folks to wail like fresh made Sicilian widows without any real reason to do so? Some committee suggested licensing might be a good thing and that the average farrier school is a rip off. I do love a conspiracy, but so what? Anyone who has been around longer than two weeks knows Walt has always been an advocate of licensing and that most shoeing school graduates are ready to apprentice, not to hang out a shingle.

Also I dont want to be picky here, but I noticed the little shall we say "Freudian Slip" in the phrase "an AFA members squabble with management" you inadvertantly are right on the money they want to be the managers of the farrier industry

There was no "Freudian Slip," inadvertent or otherwise. There is my accurate statement and your attempted spin; logically, one is not related to the other.

Thanks again for proving me right you truly are a wealth of knowledge and information,

The latter is unlikely, the former is fantasy. :)

[Henry Heymering, RMF]

Hi Tom -


What mess? Embezzlement? Malfeasance? Did somebody get caught in the wrong bed? Or, did the mere thought of licensing cause a bunch of folks to wail like fresh made Sicilian widows without any real reason to do so? Some committee suggested licensing might be a good thing and that the average farrier school is a rip off. I do love a conspiracy, but so what? Anyone who has been around longer than two weeks knows Walt has always been an advocate of licensing and that most shoeing school graduates are ready to apprentice, not to hang out a shingle.

The mess of course does involve a conspiracy, so you should love it! ;-)

Yes, we know Walt has always been in favor of licensing, that's no surprise, and he's free to think whatever he likes.

The problem is that he conspired to cram licensing down our throats by creating a task force that was not revealed to the mid-year board meeting as required by the bylaws, that worked in secret for 10 months, that specifically excluded some excellent members, and that then asked for a BoD vote on vitally important matters without a chance for the Board members to discuss it with members at large or to even sleep on it one night.

This is a mess, don't you think?

- Henry

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Henry Heymering, RMF, in gray; my old stuff in brown

What mess? Embezzlement? Malfeasance? Did somebody get caught in the wrong bed? Or, did the mere thought of licensing cause a bunch of folks to wail like fresh made Sicilian widows without any real reason to do so? Some committee suggested licensing might be a good thing and that the average farrier school is a rip off. I do love a conspiracy, but so what? Anyone who has been around longer than two weeks knows Walt has always been an advocate of licensing and that most shoeing school graduates are ready to apprentice, not to hang out a shingle.

The mess of course does involve a conspiracy, so you should love it! ;-)

Yes, we know Walt has always been in favor of licensing, that's no surprise, and he's free to think whatever he likes.

The problem is that he conspired to cram licensing down our throats by creating a task force that was not revealed to the mid-year board meeting as required by the bylaws, that worked in secret for 10 months, that specifically excluded some excellent members,

If allegations of behavior of an officer or employee that is blatantly contrary to the bylaws of an organization are supported by irrefutable docümentation (aka, "smoking gun evidence"), then such behavior is usually considered to be just cause for censure, dismissal, or impeachment of the individual. (e.g., In the TPFA, membership is revocable "for cause.")

and that then asked for a BoD vote on vitally important matters without a chance for the Board members to discuss it with members at large or to even sleep on it one night.

Anybody can ask a lady to dance, but it takes two to tango. I'll ask Ambrose (TPFA prez) how he voted, but knowing him, I doubt he'd vote for farrier licensing if Jesus Christ told him his Daddy was for it.

This is a mess, don't you think?

Henry, in my view, it's still a bunch of finger pointing at this point. Hopefully, the AFA will get it worked out in Omaha after figuratively - perhaps literally - rolling around on the floor amidst the beer, blood, and broken glass.

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=Henry Heymering, RMF]
>The problem is that he conspired to cram licensing down our throats by creating a task force that was not revealed to the mid-year board meeting as required by the bylaws,

The FACT is that Walt did not create the task force/AD Hoc Committee.

That this committee was not made known to the BOD at mid year may have been a conscious effort, or it may simply have been that not enough, if any, progress by the committee had been made at that point to make even an initial report.

If that is the extent of the claim for damages, then use it actionably or move on.

>that worked in secret for 10 months, that specifically excluded some excellent members,

Commmittees/taskforces often only work within their own confines. Are you/we regularly kept abreast of the innerworkings of each and every committee within the AFA? The answer is, "of course not", any more than we are kept abreast of the innerworkings of the various and sundry committees within our various levels of government and/or industry. Even when reports are made to the BOD, the only way the membership learns about them, generally speaking, is either by word of mouth(often inaccurate and erroneous) or through publication in the newsletter, or occasionally by a direct, special mailing. However, the President and usually, the rest of the EC and the ED are regularly kept up to date on the goings on within the committees. This is the structure of the organization.

As for excluding certain "excellent members", I can only say that each committee chairman/woman has been given the perogative to choose who he/she wishes to have on their committee. Many times, individuals that others may consider to be "excellent" are excluded. The examples abound. That too is "the nature of the beast". It is also something I have discussed privately with both the ED and the president. Whether or not anything will come of my discussions remains to be seen. It is however, something I want to pursue---identifying the special abilities and areas of expertise of our membership, and then developing a means to tap into that wealth of knowledge and ability.

Even when the old Ad Hoc committee was disbanded and a new Ad Hoc Committee for developing a Survey of Farrier Schools was put in place, there were many individuals who would have liked to have been on that committee yet were not chosen. While it is true I was asked to serve on that committee, had I not been, I would not have seen a conspiracy, even if I had known that the chair specifically did not want me on the committee.

>and that then asked for a BoD vote on vitally important matters without a chance for the Board members to discuss it with members at large or to even sleep on it one night.

The BOD is regularly asked to vote on vitally important matters without a chance for the Board members to discuss them with members at large or to even sleep on them for one night. I don't know if the Ad Hoc committee's report and recommendations was part of the pre-meeting packet sent to each and every board member at least one month ahead of time. If it was, then each BOD member did indeed have the time to discuss the issue with his/her constituants and to mull it over at their leisure. Based on my observations during my tenure on the board, most, not all, but most, members arrive at the meeting with their packets unopened.

Even if the report and recommendations were left out of the packet, the board received the report/recommendations, discussed them and then acted. Their actions prove that at least in this instance, the board acted forcefully and effectively. What better example of good governance could you ask for?

>This is a mess, don't you think?

No, its not a mess. What is a mess is the over the top reaction by certain individuals. The spreading of rumor, the damning by innuendo, the erroneous accusations based on misinformation, misunderstanding, and a narrow-mindedness that refuses to see the light at the end of the tunnel, rather only the perceived darkness created by the fugue that has enveloped those who refuse to seperate the truth from the fiction, the fact from the fallacy.

[Henry Heymering, RMF]

Hi Rick -
The FACT is that Walt did not create the task force/AD Hoc Committee.

Technically you're correct. However, the plan for the committee was written by Walt Taylor, along with Bryan Quinsey's name on it... though he doesn't know how it got there. The actions of the committee seem to have exactly followed the plan proposed by Walt. Walt as part of the EC voted on forming the committee and then was its chair. True, it took some other votes to 'create' the task force, but it was Walt's baby all the way.

That this committee was not made known to the BOD at mid year may have been a conscious effort, or it may simply have been that not enough, if any, progress by the committee had been made at that point to make even an initial report.

From the memos and papers it appears that all the task force did happened before the mid-year meeting. Regardless of how much was done before the meeting and regardless of the motives, the simple fact of the matter is that the bylaws were violated by not informing the BoD of the actions of the EC and of putting it before the board for ratification.


If that is the extent of the claim for damages, then use it actionably or move on.

"Hey, I know my rights. I don't have to tell you anything. If you've got enough evidence then book me... otherwise let me go." What is this the new manifesto from Moveon.org ?

First order I suppose is to find out the extent of the violation(s). Yes, that was a violation of the bylaws and that is actionable. ... yet it's a tough call. Quite distasteful to chastise the founder of the AFA who served as its president for 17 years... and hard to simply let slide what appears to be a deliberate attempt to have the AFA act on something before the membership could find out.


As for excluding certain "excellent members", I can only say that each committee chairman/woman has been given the perogative to choose who he/she wishes to have on their committee. Many times, individuals that others may consider to be "excellent" are excluded. The examples abound. That too is "the nature of the beast". It is also something I have discussed privately with both the ED and the president. Whether or not anything will come of my discussions remains to be seen. It is however, something I want to pursue---identifying the special abilities and areas of expertise of our membership, and then developing a means to tap into that wealth of knowledge and ability.

Certainly committees and task forces can choose who they think will work best for the job at hand... that is not the complaint. The complaint is that the task force was asked to specifically exclude certain people from getting any information, or from having any input. This is not the usual 'nature of the beast'.

The BOD is regularly asked to vote on vitally important matters without a chance for the Board members to discuss them with members at large or to even sleep on them for one night.

If you have an example I'd like to hear it. The typical approach in any organization is that the more important the topic the more deliberation is taken. It is not wise to make hasty decision unless it is absolutely necessary. The BoD was given a song and dance that the issue was urgent, however the issue hasn't changed since Walt brought it up 30 years ago. The 'urgency' claimed was not real.


No, its not a mess. What is a mess is the over the top reaction by certain individuals. The spreading of rumor, the damning by innuendo, the erroneous accusations based on misinformation, misunderstanding, and a narrow-mindedness that refuses to see the light at the end of the tunnel, rather only the perceived darkness created by the fugue that has enveloped those who refuse to seperate the truth from the fiction, the fact from the fallacy.

Please back that up with specifics and do***entation as I asked for in another message.

Clearly there was a violation of the bylaws. Clearly secrets were kept from the members that should not have been kept. Even those actions were tried to be kept secret. These are not innuendos, these are facts.

My response to this is to try to dig a little deeper and find out the complete story. Some others might overreact. Some others might try to bury their head in the sand and pretend nothing ever happened.

I hope you'll join me in making the facts and do***entation for them public.

- Henry

[Henry Heymering, RMF]

Hi Tom -

Henry, in my view, it's still a bunch of finger pointing at this point. Hopefully, the AFA will get it worked out in Omaha after figuratively - perhaps literally - rolling around on the floor amidst the beer, blood, and broken glass.

Reminds me of an old movie "Guide for the Married Man" I think it was called. A woman comes home to find her husband in bed with another woman. She starts screaming and carrying on "How could you do this?" "Who is this woman?" etc.

The woman gets up, grabs her things, gets dressed and leaves, while the husband calmly says "Woman, what woman? I don't know what you're talking about. Why are you upset? There's no one here."

- Henry

P.S. "STOP - THIEF!" is much more effective when accompanied by finger-pointing.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Henry Heymering, RMF, in gray, my old stuff in brown

Henry, in my view, it's still a bunch of finger pointing at this point. Hopefully, the AFA will get it worked out in Omaha after figuratively - perhaps literally - rolling around on the floor amidst the beer, blood, and broken glass.

Reminds me of an old movie "Guide for the Married Man" I think it was called. A woman comes home to find her husband in bed with another woman. She starts screaming and carrying on "How could you do this?" "Who is this woman?" etc.

The woman gets up, grabs her things, gets dressed and leaves, while the husband calmly says "Woman, what woman? I don't know what you're talking about. Why are you upset? There's no one here."

The cuckolded lady in your movie was an eyewitness to the transgression - which means her husband's denial was irrelevant because she saw it happen. On the other hand, the folks accusing the AFA of everything but Kennedy's assassination are doing so without benefit of a clearly defined transgression, much less an eyewitness.

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=Henry Heymering, RMF]


>Technically you're correct.

No sir! Factually, I am correct.

> However, the plan for the committee was written by Walt Taylor, along with Bryan Quinsey's name on it... though he doesn't know how it got there. The actions of the committee seem to have exactly followed the plan proposed by Walt.

Since he chaired the committee, and since the committee agreed to the final report, what's the issue?



>Walt as part of the EC voted on forming the committee and then was its chair. True, it took some other votes to 'create' the task force, but it was Walt's baby all the way.

No sir, you are completely wrong. The Committee/task force was formed by the president. There was no vote by the EC to form that entity. Whoever gave you this information was totally wrong. If you came to this conclusion based on information provided by someone(s) else, you need to check your sources. They are misinformed and as a result are promulgating false and erroneous information.

>From the memos and papers it appears that all the task force did happened before the mid-year meeting.

I have related the evolution of the committee as it was delineated to me from records kept at AFA headquarters in Lexington, Ky.


>Regardless of how much was done before the meeting and regardless of the motives, the simple fact of the matter is that the bylaws were violated by not informing the BoD of the actions of the EC and of putting it before the board for ratification.

No Sir!. No violations occurred. The EC took no actions, merely met in an Executive session to study the information. And, If you will but peruse your copy of the By-Laws you will note that in Article IV: Officers, section 2: Duties, paragraph (a) President, sentence four(4), "The President may create task forces or Ad Hoc committees for the purpose of investigating a specific issue."

You will note the complete lack of any requirement for the President to report this committee/task force formation, operation or findings, to anyone, at any time.

Now, a further reading of duties and responsibilities under Article IV, Section 2, paragraph (b) finds: "The Vice president shall coordinate the activities of the various committees, except the nominating committee, and report to the President and the Board of Directors their activities."

Now, this would seem to indicate that it is the responsibility of the Vice President to keep track of and report on all the goings-on of the various commimttees. You will note that it says NOTHING about a task force. Further, the By-laws are silent on when and how the Vice President shall report to the President and Board of Directors regarding the activities of the various committees.

Reading further, Article VII. Executive Committee, Section 5, sentence three(3): "Actions taken by the Executive Committee must be reported to the Board of Directors and be ratified by the Board of Directors at its next meeting."

Since the EC took no action with regard to the issues at hand, prior to the mid year meeting in 2004, there was no report or ratification required. At the next BOD meeting, even though there was no EC action taken(other than to accept the report/recommendations) on the task force/Ad Hoc committee report and recommendations, the report/recommendations were presented to the BOD. Now, as I earlier delineated, there was much discussion as to whether or not the board was even going to hear the report at that time, or if it was to be postponed. And, as I said, the BOD voted to hear the report and review, discuss and vote on the recommendations of the Ad Hoc committee.

All done, "According to Hoyle".

>"Hey, I know my rights. I don't have to tell you anything. If you've got enough evidence then book me... otherwise let me go." What is this the new manifesto from Moveon.org ?

No, its just time for you to admit your mistakes, stop making them, and get on with matters of truth and revealence.

>First order I suppose is to find out the extent of the violation(s). Yes, that was a violation of the bylaws and that is actionable. ...

Sorry Henry, but as you can now clearly see, there was no violation of the By-laws. Find a different drum to beat.

>yet it's a tough call. Quite distasteful to chastise the founder of the AFA who served as its president for 17 years... and hard to simply let slide what appears to be a deliberate attempt to have the AFA act on something before the membership could find out.

Walt may still take some lumps over this. Time will tell. As for the rest of it, the membership routinely finds out after the fact about what the Board does and does not do or approve of. The membership's voice is heard through their board representatives. It is the nature of this organization that it acts like a Republic, not a Democracy where each person votes on each and every item of business. Do not mistake me here. The AFA is a democracy in the sense that the members get to vote to elect representatives to speak for them.

>Certainly committees and task forces can choose who they think will work best for the job at hand... that is not the complaint. The complaint is that the task force was asked to specifically exclude certain people from getting any information, or from having any input. This is not the usual 'nature of the beast'.

Sure it is. Sometimes the desires are left more unspoken or unwritten, but they are present and acted upon nonetheless.

>If you have an example I'd like to hear it. The typical approach in any organization is that the more important the topic the more deliberation is taken. It is not wise to make hasty decision unless it is absolutely necessary. The BoD was given a song and dance that the issue was urgent, however the issue hasn't changed since Walt brought it up 30 years ago. The 'urgency' claimed was not real.

Your perception and you are well entitled to it(Democracy in action). The sagacity of what was or was not done is a matter for debate. Regardless, no laws were broken, no crimes committed.

>Please back that up with specifics and do***entation as I asked for in another message.

Per your request, see above, and contact the AFA offices in Ky. Also, I would think that this information will be on hand at the Omaha meeting coming up in short order.

>Clearly there was a violation of the bylaws.

Clearly there were not.

>Clearly secrets were kept from the members that should not have been kept.

Clearly there were not.

>Even those actions were tried to be kept secret. These are not innuendos, these are facts.

Cleary they are not facts. Your continued arguments to the contrary are disingenuous and not what I would expect from you given the facts now at hand.

>My response to this is to try to dig a little deeper and find out the complete story.

Yet you come here with accusations and innuendo in hand, and when presented with facts, continue to deny them and continue with your erroneous statements of non-fact.

>Some others might overreact.

Thus far, you seem to be in this category. Have you contacted the office and discussed the issues with Bryan? Have you a current copy of the By-laws to refer back to, and if so, why do you persist with your now proven erroneous, accusations?

>Some others might try to bury their head in the sand and pretend nothing ever happened.

No one is denying that something happened. The results may be cathartic or nothing but a tempest in a tea pot. Looked at dispassionately, there has been much ado about little.

>I hope you'll join me in making the facts and do***entation for them public.

I have, from the outset done that to the best of my ability. I have personally spoken with many of the principals, reported here and elsewhere the results of those conversations, and maintained my lines of communication to the AFA office so that I can quickly acertain the truth or lack there of of the charges that have been levied and the information that has been presented as "points of fact". Most of which turn out to be misinformed, erroneous and sometimes, downright foolish. Apparently the firestorm that has been created has burned out the sensible intellectuality of many.

[Henry Heymering, RMF]

The Committee/task force was formed by the president.

Very good, I stand corrected, thanks.

No Sir!. No violations occurred. The EC took no actions, merely met in an Executive session to study the information.

Hmmm... calling a meeting is not an action then according to you? Well, what do you call creating a "Director of Education" position? Is that not an action? According to Walt Taylor's July 21 2004 "Farrier - Registration Process and Timeline" paper that had been done by the EC at that time. ... before the mid-year board meetings.

And, If you will but peruse your copy of the By-Laws you will note that in Article IV: Officers, section 2: Duties, paragraph (a) President, sentence four(4), "The President may create task forces or Ad Hoc committees for the purpose of investigating a specific issue."

You will note the complete lack of any requirement for the President to report this committee/task force formation, operation or findings, to anyone, at any time.

Article IX Section 4 says: "Committees shall be responsible to the Board of Directors ..." Just how can they be responsible to the Board if they don't even inform the Board of their existence for 10 months?

Now, a further reading of duties and responsibilities under Article IV, Section 2, paragraph (b) finds: "The Vice president shall coordinate the activities of the various committees, except the nominating committee, and report to the President and the Board of Directors their activities."

Now, this would seem to indicate that it is the responsibility of the Vice President to keep track of and report on all the goings-on of the various commimttees. You will note that it says NOTHING about a task force. Further, the By-laws are silent on when and how the Vice President shall report to the President and Board of Directors regarding the activities of the various committees.

As you noted above " committee/task force " ... a task force is simply another name for an Ad Hoc committee.

Reading further, Article VII. Executive Committee, Section 5, sentence three(3): "Actions taken by the Executive Committee must be reported to the Board of Directors and be ratified by the Board of Directors at its next meeting."

Since the EC took no action with regard to the issues at hand, prior to the mid year meeting in 2004, there was no report or ratification required. At the next BOD meeting, even though there was no EC action taken(other than to accept the report/recommendations) on the task force/Ad Hoc committee report and recommendations, the report/recommendations were presented to the BOD. Now, as I earlier delineated, there was much discussion as to whether or not the board was even going to hear the report at that time, or if it was to be postponed. And, as I said, the BOD voted to hear the report and review, discuss and vote on the recommendations of the Ad Hoc committee.

All done, "According to Hoyle".

No, the EC took action in creating a "Director of Education" position and did not report it to the Board and ask for ratification at the mid-year board meeting. That's a violation.

- Henry

[Phil Armitage]

It appears that the AFA uses Roberts Rules. Was there ever a motion or motions made before steps like makeing reports and submitting them to a board? Even if the AFA had not followed the rules exact to the letter, I would assume everything we are discussing was also discussed in meetings and added to minutes way prior to actually makeing reports. Makeing and submitting reports is pretty far along the proccess. So my curiosity and suspicion that things were done in secret is also riseing. I would think a non profit orginization would have to follow rules like Roberts rules and it is pretty hard to keep things a secret following rules like this.

[R.Revilinski]

Your right Phil, the suspicion is there,
The BoD needs to go in show some guts grab control of this meeting and suspend all AFA operations pending a full investigation by independent counsel. I dont expect that will happen but this cloud that has been created by the controversy will hover over the AFA for quite some time, I also think the membership needs to let the BoD and the ececutive committe know that they will not financially support (through thier dues) an orginization that is run in this manner, I also belive that a full boycott of Farnam is in order until wich time they (The Farnam company) states its postion on the issue of licensing and registration.

[Rick Burten]

Very good, I stand corrected, thanks.

De nada.

Hmmm... calling a meeting is not an action then according to you? Well, what do you call creating a "Director of Education" position? Is that not an action? According to Walt Taylor's July 21 2004 "Farrier - Registration Process and Timeline" paper that had been done by the EC at that time. ... before the mid-year board meetings.

It is my understanding that the so called meeting was infact, a Study Session. Regardless, as you will soon learn(see below), the EC , contrary to your misinformed and erroneous allegations, took no such action.

I have placed a call to the AFA office for information on the subject of the creation of the "Director of Education" position. Until I am in possession of the facts, I will not comment further, make allegations, spread false information, or rumors or innuendo on this subject.(1005 hours, 02Sept2005).

1020 hours, 02Sept2005. I have just spoken with the Executive Director of the AFA on this issue. Here are the FACTS.

The position of "Director of Education" is a staff position and one that is
filled by the Executive Director of the AFA. The only part the EC took in this matter was to make a recommendation to the ED that this position be created and filled. It is the sole responsibility of the ED to create and fill this or any other staff position, and the ED is under no obligation or constraint to seek permission or review by the Board of Directors prior to such hiring. In point of fact, the only STAFF position that is reviewed and approved by the BOD is that of Executive Director. It is solely the responsibility of the ED to determine whether or not there is sufficient funding available to create and or fill ANY staff position(other than his own).

Further, this request/recommendation does not need to be reported to the BOD at its earliest meeting. That this is routinely done for any staff position(other than the ED), is both a professional and personal(not personnel)courtesy. And, I might note, that this information is routinely made available to the membership, including the BOD, long before any upcoming BOD meeting.

Article IX Section 4 says: "Committees shall be responsible to the Board of Directors ..." Just how can they be responsible to the Board if they don't even inform the Board of their existence for 10 months?

Ahh, the gist of the matter. You will note that Article IX is titled "STANDING COMMITTEES"

Therefore, each and every section contained within this article, including the section you reference above(Section 4), pertain, refer only to and solely to those Standing Committees .

Further, in Article IX, Section 7: "The Association may have the following Standing Committees:", the standing committees, and currently there are only fourteen(14) of them, are enumerated.

Thus, any Ad Hoc committee formed by the President, I S N O T subject to the regulations and requirements set forth under Article IX.

As you noted above " committee/task force " ... a task force is simply another name for an Ad Hoc committee.

OK I agree. And, as you are now aware, said task force/Ad Hoc Committee(s) is/are not subject to Article IX.

No, the EC took action in creating a "Director of Education" position and did not report it to the Board and ask for ratification at the mid-year board meeting. That's a violation.

As you are now aware, the EC took no such action, nor could they.
Thus, T H E R E W A S N O V I O L A T I O N . Since you are now in possession of the true and accurate facts, I trust there will be no further discourse from you or anyone else on that matter. As well as on the matter of what the By-Laws of the AFA do and do not say about the formation, action, reporting and recommendations of a task force or Ad Hoc committee, formed by the President of the AFA.

(A note to readers of this discourse: I have placed time and date marks within the body of my replies(here and in other threads) in areas that they seem pertinent,so that those who may be trying to keep accurate track of when things occurred, will have an accurate measure by which to do so.)

Rick Burten, CJF,RMF
AFA#3414

[Rick Burten]

The BoD needs to go in show some guts grab control of this meeting and suspend all AFA operations pending a full investigation by independent counsel. I dont expect that will happen but this cloud that has been created by the controversy will hover over the AFA for quite some time, I also think the membership needs to let the BoD and the ececutive committe know that they will not financially support (through thier dues) an orginization that is run in this manner, I also belive that a full boycott of Farnam is in order until wich time they (The Farnam company) states its postion on the issue of licensing and registration.

Spoken like a true coward. You are not a member of the AFA(actually, in addition to being a coward, you are a quitter), in the vernacular, " your opinions ain't worth squat".

[Rick Burten]

I would think a non profit orginization would have to follow rules like Roberts rules and it is pretty hard to keep things a secret following rules like this.

Phil,

According to the AFA By-Laws, ARTICLE XIV "PARLIAMENTARY AUTHORITY" ,

"The rules contained in the current edition of Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised shall govern the Association in all cases to which they are applicable and in which they are not inconsistent with these Bylaws or any special rules of order the Association may adopt."

So I think you need to discover whether or not any of those Rules were violated and if so, if it was because they were "inconsistent with these Bylaws or any special rules of order the Association may adopt".

Then, and only then, would you be in a position to bring forth charges and allegations of malfeasance, misdeed or other disreputable acts or actions.

It is quite clear that most of those making allegations have not been in possession of some of the facts, let alone all the facts, and have "shot from the lip" inappropriately and erroneously. It is past time for those individuals to admit their errors and mistakes and to cease their meaningless rhetoric.

[R.Revilinski]

Rick if my leaving the AFA because I refuse to financially support an orginization that does not care about its membership than I am a Quitter.
I urge all AFA members to become Quitters dont send in your dues boycott these few who think they have some divine right to enforce thier idea's on you.

I guess in your eyes Rick the founding fathers of our country were also quitters as they walked away from the tyranical rule that was forced upon them, well if thats a quitter than I want to be one, its time the membership started thier own revolution, maybe when the membership is down to the EC and a few select committee members these people will wake up and make the changes that need to be made.

and Rick I really dont care what you say about me or your opinions of me just the fact that you would take your time to respond to my posts and try to brow beat me and anyone else that disagree's with you into silence shows that you fear what you consider the undesirable masses of the farrier industry so again I say have your little rant at my expense it still does not change the facts as published by the AFA.

If anyone thinks that they will get a straight answer from anyone on the list from Bryan they are sadly mistaken, these people like Rick will tow the company line

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=R.Revilinski]>Rick if my leaving the AFA because I refuse to financially support an orginization that does not care about its membership than I am a Quitter.

Thank you for confirming my perception and assessment of your person and your character.


>I urge all AFA members to become Quitters dont send in your dues boycott these few who think they have some divine right to enforce thier idea's on you.

You seem to be subject to a lot of aberrent urges. You really should do something about that.

>I guess in your eyes Rick the founding fathers of our country were also quitters as they walked away from the tyranical rule that was forced upon them,

Nice try but you are comparing apples to bat guano.

>well if thats a quitter than I want to be one,

Congratulations!, you are(a quitter that is). Would you care to now discuss and affirm your cowardice?

>its time the membership started thier own revolution, maybe when the membership is down to the EC and a few select committee members these people will wake up and make the changes that need to be made.

How cowardly(yet again) and disingenuous of you to urge something of a membership of which you are not a part. Are you like this in all aspects of your life? The " character" and " integrity" parts at least, right?

>and Rick I really dont care what you say about me or your opinions of me just the fact that you would take your time to respond to my posts and try to brow beat me and anyone else that disagree's with you into silence shows that you fear what you consider the undesirable masses of the farrier industry so again I say have your little rant at my expense it still does not change the facts as published by the AFA.


I don't have to or try to brow beat anyone and I fear no man or woman. Those who have the intelligence to see the facts when they are presented draw their own conclusions.

And, you are correct in your statement that the AFA has published the facts. The problem is that individuals such as you cannot accept the facts because they run counter to your erroneous, mis-informed, disingenuous, speculative ,
beliefs and opinions. It is obvious to anyone who reads the facts that your position is both untenable and now, ludicrous. You have become a poor approximation of Pinnochio with your strings being yanked, none to gently, by forces you neither understand or control. It is amusing to watch you dance the jig and spin aimlessly in the air, all the while thinking anyone cares about your predicament. And, when this time passes, and it will pass, you will once again be relegated to the dust heap. A nobody, never was, gone from sight and consciousness. Enjoy your brief stay near center stage. It soon will end.

>If anyone thinks that they will get a straight answer from anyone on the list from Bryan they are sadly mistaken, these people like Rick will tow the company line

Show us all, one instance where I have not, when asked and even when not asked, provided a straight answer. Show me once where you have done your due dilligance and sought out the truth, the facts, the straight answer. And then provided said information for all to see.

You continue to play the buffoon. You can't help it. Its who you are. For this, you earn my pity as well as my scorn.

[Henry Heymering, RMF]

Hi Rick -

The only part the EC took in this matter was to make a recommendation to the ED that this position be created and filled.

So your contention is that a recommendation is not 'an action' and so does not need the BoD's approval or notification?

Ahh, the gist of the matter. You will note that Article IX is titled "STANDING COMMITTEES"...Thus, any Ad Hoc committee formed by the President, I S N O T subject to the regulations and requirements set forth under Article IX.

Ah... so 'committee' means 'standing committee' when it is in that section. Then why, pray tell, do the bylaws bother to specify 'standing committee' so many times in that section when according to you it is totally unnecessary.

You would also have to believe that after the bylaws state that the Board is the governing body of the AFA the bylaws go on to give powers above and beyond the Board to the president. This would be contradictory and should be very plainly spelled out if it is to be the case.

The more logical and consistent interpretation would be to assume that 'committee' means all committees, not just standing committees. I, for one, don't think the meaning of words changes according to the section title. I suppose a paliamentarian or judge will have to decide that.

As you are now aware, the EC took no such action, nor could they.
Thus, T H E R E W A S N O V I O L A T I O N . Since you are now in possession of the true and accurate facts, I trust there will be no further discourse from you or anyone else on that matter.

No, I am aware that *you* think calling a meeting, or a study session is not an action; that *you* think that recommending a position be created and filled is not an action; and that *you* think when the bylaws say "The Association shall be operated under the authority delegated by the Board of Directors ... Actions taken by the Executive Committee must be reported to the Board of Directors and be ratified by the Board of Directors at its next meeting." that they really mean 'except for special powers set aside for the king/president.'

However, what I haven't heard from you are the answers to these questions:

Do you think that it was necessary, wise, or appropriate for the task force to ask the Board to vote on licensing without advance notice?

Do you think that there was legitimate reason for the lack of notice?

Bottom line I guess is: Do you have full faith in the actions and motivations of Walt Taylor and the EC or do you have some questions that you think should be answered?

For myself, I have not yet seen a valid reason for the secrecy and claimed urgency.

I have known Walt Taylor for nearly 30 years and I have had nothing but trust and respect for him up till now. Now, however, I have some serious questions that need to be answered. Until those questions are answered he no longer has my trust and respect.

- Henry

[ray steele]

If you would accept a suggestion, since the AFA has hired /employed a parlimentarian for the mid year meeting, and since in this thread there appears to be a "misunderstanding " of the use of words, might it not be useful to ask the AFA to present this question to that parlimentarian in a special meeting,of course that meeting should be according to the AFA constitution.

As a warning, the interpretation of that constitution may not please all, but such an interpretation might clarify not only this discussion but also make clear changes that members might want in the future.

Just the continuance of this discussion keeps bringing up info. and questions


Regards

Ray Steele

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=Henry Heymering, RMF]Hi Rick -

>So your contention is that a recommendation is not 'an action' and so does not need the BoD's approval or notification?

Correct.

>Ah... so 'committee' means 'standing committee' when it is in that section. Then why, pray tell, do the bylaws bother to specify 'standing committee' so many times in that section when according to you it is totally unnecessary.

I never said it was unnecessary. I didn't write or have a part in writing the bylaws, so I do not know what the thinking was. However, the fact remains that only standing committees are covered under Arrticle IX, and Ad Hoc Committees and Task Forces are covered only in Article IV, Section 2(a).

You may not like the way the bylaws are written, but that is grist for a different mill. As they now stand, everything was done in complete compliance. Doubt it? Retain your own legal counsel see what he/she/they have to say, and then get back to us. Until then, the point is moot.

>You would also have to believe that after the bylaws state that the Board is the governing body of the AFA the bylaws go on to give powers above and beyond the Board to the president. This would be contradictory and should be very plainly spelled out if it is to be the case.

The duties of the President are quite clearly spelled out in Article IV Section 2(a). Got a beef with that? Take it up with the Board. Equivocating here does you a disservice. And while the Board may be the governing body, the President is specifically charged by the bylaws as follows: "It shall be the duty of the President to implement and enforce these Bylaws and policies, program of work and decisions adopted by the Board.......The President may create task forces or Ad Hoc committees for the purpose of investigating a specific issue. ....."

Now, what part of those Bylaws do you not comprehend? It would seem that there is little room for argument. Regardless, you need the advise of your own legal counsel. Spend the money and get it. It is the only way to resolve your concerns and questions. Absent that, and assuming AFA corporate legal counsel will be present at the Omaha meeting next week, you may be able to avail yourself of their counsel. Either way, until you have a clear understanding from some legal counsel, you need to hold the matter in abayance.

>The more logical and consistent interpretation would be to assume that 'committee' means all committees, not just standing committees. I, for one, don't think the meaning of words changes according to the section title. I suppose a paliamentarian or judge will have to decide that.

Sorry, but logic and consistancy are not players in this equation. The only thing that matters is that the Bylaws as written are a legal doc*ment, binding the officers, EC, Board of Directors, and members to a specifically deliniated method and means of operation. What you might consider to be logical is of no consequence. All that matters is the actual language of the Bylaws. Again, I urge you to retain your own legal counsel to advise you on these matters.

>No, I am aware that *you* think calling a meeting, or a study session is not an action; that *you* think that recommending a position be created and filled is not an action; and that *you* think when the bylaws say "The Association shall be operated under the authority delegated by the Board of Directors ... Actions taken by the Executive Committee must be reported to the Board of Directors and be ratified by the Board of Directors at its next meeting." that they really mean 'except for special powers set aside for the king/president.'

Other than by you, no mention of a coronation has been made. And your use of that term is unbecoming of you.

You choose to try and split hairs over semantics. Fine. Take action. Prove me wrong. Prove that having a meeting or making a recommendation (which by the way, did not have to be followed as Staff matters are the sole domain of the ED(other than as relates to the ED him/herself) was some how an action and thereby violated the Bylaws.

As for "special powers" set aside for the President, only those 'powers' specifically enumerated in Article IV Section 2(a) are available to him/her. Thus far, no one has shown any overstepping of any bounds, no ursurpation of anyone's rights or authority, no , if you will, skullduggery, on the part of either the President acting individually , the EC acting as a body, the ED acting in his official capacity. The only continued machinations is coming from malcontents such as you have become who no longer have a viable argument yet continue to ,in the face of mounting evidence, facts and truth, snipe irrationally at the AFA.

Get together with Revilinski, use the attorney he/she says he/she has already talked to, and get some competent legal advise.

>However, what I haven't heard from you are the answers to these questions:

>Do you think that it was necessary, wise, or appropriate for the task force to ask the Board to vote on licensing without advance notice?

I was not aware that it was, perse, the task force that made that request. Regardless, the Board had a golden opportunity to reject the entire matter and chose not to. If you have a beef about that, take it up with them.

Now, to specifically answer your question, were I a member of the Board, I would have been upset over this unscheduled addition to the meeting agenda. I might even have voted against letting the matter be presented, i.e.: voted to table the matter until the next regularly scheduled meeting of the Board. However, when the vote went as it did, I would have taken as much opportunity as was available to study the issue and then I would have voted my conscience according to how I felt my constituancy would want me to vote. By the way, the results of that motion and vote should be available in the Board minutes. It might be interesting to see what the vote numbers were, and if it was done by show of hands, voice vote, or roll call vote. Personally, I would have demanded a roll call vote so that there would be no question where individual board members stood on the issue. Lest there be any question about that, while I was a BOD representative, I routinely called for roll call votes on matters I felt were of such importance that everyone should have to be on record as to where they stood/how they voted.

>Do you think that there was legitimate reason for the lack of notice?

Yes. And Henry, I am not going to once again get into some long circuitous discussion on that issue. It is a waste of time and effort. My position has been clearly made several times on this issue. I feel no need to repeat it yet again.

>Bottom line I guess is: Do you have full faith in the actions and motivations of Walt Taylor and the EC or do you have some questions that you think should be answered?

Who ever completely trusts a politician? Regardless, there may be some questions to be answered, but none of them revolve around the issues regarding official conduct under the current bylaws. As saying goes, "In God we Trust, all others pay cash". And what happens when someone is an athiest to start with? I will also say this. I have not spoken personally with Walt about this subject. I don't really know Walt. So I cannot speak to his motivations. I have spoken with Craig and Jeff and David and whether or not I feel their vision was/is correct, I respect them for stepping up and trying to lead. That's what we elect them to do. Its funny, but every President of the AFA has faced the same kind of criticism at some point during his tenure. the subject may have been different, but the critics all crawled out of the woodwork. Is your memory so short that you forget what was done to Bruce Daniels? Allen Smith? Emile Carre? and all the others?

>For myself, I have not yet seen a valid reason for the secrecy and claimed urgency.

Fine. Then those are the topics(if indeed they are real topics) you need to address. All the rest is just so much hyperbole. You are casting about looking for something to hang your hat on. Fine. Just don't keep bringing up issues that have been fully explained and disclosed at this time. No Violations of the bylaws have occurred. The EC has not acted in any manner that is actionable or even slightly out of order. Stop with the "Yeah buts...." and find something substantive. Right now you are beginning to sound and act like someone who can't let go even when proven wrong. Neither you or anyone else has yet delivered one sustainable fact of wrongdoing. You continue with innuendo and misdirection. Enough already.

>I have known Walt Taylor for nearly 30 years and I have had nothing but trust and respect for him up till now. Now, however, I have some serious questions that need to be answered. Until those questions are answered he no longer has my trust and respect.

Pity, you would judge a man's life and career by one alleged action. And an action that was not illegal from start to finish.

Perhaps, like you, I should feel a loss of respect and trust for you, based on your current actions,words or deeds. Unlike you, I won't. The body of evidence to the contrary is to large. I hope that nothing occurs that will negate that.

-> Henry

Rick

[Rick Burten]

If you would accept a suggestion, since the AFA has hired /employed a parlimentarian for the mid year meeting, and since in this thread there appears to be a "misunderstanding " of the use of words, might it not be useful to ask the AFA to present this question to that parlimentarian in a special meeting,of course that meeting should be according to the AFA constitution.

As a warning, the interpretation of that constitution may not please all, but such an interpretation might clarify not only this discussion but also make clear changes that members might want in the future.

Just the continuance of this discussion keeps bringing up info. and questions


Regards

Ray Steele


Ray, it is my understanding that at the time of the change over to a 501C3(a)(did I get that nomenclature right?) corporation, the Constitution and Bylaws were merged into one do***ent and survive today as the current edition of the Bylaws. Its too late tonight to call the office and I doubt anyone will be there over the Labor Day weekend. So, unless some one else has the answer, we'll just have to wait until Tuesday next to find out the status of the Constitution.