Open Letter to Walt Taylor... [Archive] - The Farrier & Hoofcare Resource Center Forums

Dave Millwater, RMF

08-23-2005, 04:44 PM

Since his firewall seems to have a few glitches, Henry asked me to post this for him.
Keep in mind that Henry has been an AFA member for around 30 years.
His email is horseu@earthlink.net

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21 August 2005

An Open Letter to Walt Taylor concerning licensing, professionalism, and the direction of the AFA:

Dear Walt,

Your goal to "Establish farriery as a PROFESSION that can take place alongside every other profession" as expressed in your Executive Committee Discussion Guide, is a very laudable goal, and one I agree with wholeheartedly. However, you and the Executive Committee have made some serious mistakes in your approach to that goal.

Your suggestion that a task force work in secret to investigate licensing was neither professional nor conducive to support from the members. Furthermore, you specifically suggested concealing the task force from two of the most professional farriers in the US * the only two who have passed the FWCF, the highest professional farriery standards in the world * Doug Butler and Chris Gregory. It was not right of you to suggest that, and it was not right for the Executive Committee and Task Force to exclude them.

You suggested that farriers to be grandfathered in for the proposed licensing must meet the following baseline requirements: at least AFA Certified Farriers; have been practicing several years; and that farriery is their primary income. While these are reasonable baseline requirements for professional farriers, a large percentage (a majority?) of current AFA members do not meet these criteria. Members cannot be expected to support criteria that would exclude themselves.

You suggested that the way for farriers to be respected as professionals is for farriers to be licensed. Professions require high entrance standards. Professions require professional conduct. Professions require autonomy * not oversight by others. Professions do not necessarily require licensing. Computer network engineers are not licensed yet they are very highly regarded professionals. Hairdressers are licensed but they do not seem to have any level of respect due to their being licensed. Drivers are licensed, and get no respect or professionalism from the license. Licensing does not equal professionalism and respect. Professionalism and respect come from high standards * not from licensing

To firmly reestablish farriery as profession there are several steps that will be far more effective than licensing, and in any case must be done to maintain professional status with or without licensing:

1) Establish professional standards for membership in the AFA. The baseline requirements you list are reasonable requirements. Grandfather in all current members and then require that all future members meet the new baseline criteria.

2) Stop promoting farrier contests. Veterinarians do not have spaying contests. Physicians do not have appendectomy contests. Dentists do not have cavity-filling contests. CPAs do not have accounting contests. Electricians do not have wiring contests. Professionals do not have contests. Tradesmen do not have contests. Sportsmen have contests * rodeo, fishing, golf, etc. Are we a sport or a profession? Let's portray a clear image to the world that we are a profession. Let’s act like professionals * not sportsmen.

3) Fight the encroachment on our profession by others * especially the veterinarians. No group can claim to be a profession if it is required to work under the supervision and direction of another group. For more than a thousand years farriers have worked autonomously. In just the last ten years or so the veterinary practice acts of many states have been written to appear to require veterinary control of farriery. We cannot exist as a profession in these cir***stances. We must clarify the laws in each state so that farriery continues to exist as an autonomous profession.

We agree on the goal of professionalism. Now let's take the steps necessary to be the professionals we should be * without government interference.

Respectfully yours,

Henry Heymering, AFA #222

Roy Amaral CJF

08-23-2005, 08:39 PM

Since it an open letter I'll add my $.02.

Doug Butler and Chris Gregory aren't the only FWCF's in the country. I think Chris Gregory and Dr. Miller are pretty tight (they've been teammates at the convention for several years) so I kind of doubt they never discussed the task force, but I could be wrong.

To firmly reestablish farriery as profession there are several steps that will be far more effective than licensing, and in any case must be done to maintain professional status with or without licensing:

1) Establish professional standards for membership in the AFA. The baseline requirements you list are reasonable requirements. Grandfather in all current members and then require that all future members meet the new baseline criteria.

2) Stop promoting farrier contests. Veterinarians do not have spaying contests. Physicians do not have appendectomy contests. Dentists do not have cavity-filling contests. CPAs do not have accounting contests. Electricians do not have wiring contests. Professionals do not have contests. Tradesmen do not have contests. Sportsmen have contests * rodeo, fishing, golf, etc. Are we a sport or a profession? Let's portray a clear image to the world that we are a profession. Let’s act like professionals * not sportsmen.

3) Fight the encroachment on our profession by others * especially the veterinarians. No group can claim to be a profession if it is required to work under the supervision and direction of another group. For more than a thousand years farriers have worked autonomously. In just the last ten years or so the veterinary practice acts of many states have been written to appear to require veterinary control of farriery. We cannot exist as a profession in these cir***stances. We must clarify the laws in each state so that farriery continues to exist as an autonomous profession.

#1 and #3 would seem to be mutualy exclusive. How do we have any legislative clout while reducing our membership?

#2 Lots of other trades have compititions Vets (http://wsunews.wsu.edu/detail.asp?StoryID=5140) Dentists (http://www.usask.ca/events/news/articles/19981008-3.html) Lumberjacks (http://www.usaxemen.com/usaa/guides/competitor/main.shtml) Artists (http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/2004/Scholarship/results1.asp) Plumbing and Electrical (http://www.durhamc.on.ca/EN/news/news_releases/21097/20020506.php). Although w're unique we have some similarities with all of these professions. Compition helps raise the bar in both skills and technology. Compare the shoeboards from the '85 convention to the '05 contest shoes. The quality is way up along with the complexity of the forgings and shorter time limits. Noticed any improvement in gas forges since then?

#3 Amen

Jason Maki

08-23-2005, 09:10 PM

Historicly speaking. when a despot wishes to increase his power relative to an assembly, he increases the number of representitives in said assembly. The more mouths talking, the more special interests to take into account, the less real power an assembly has...
Just a bit of perspective.
Jason

calshoer

08-23-2005, 10:46 PM

2 Lots of other trades have compititions Vets Dentists Lumberjacks Artists Plumbing and Electrical. Although w're unique we have some similarities with all of these professions. Compition helps raise the bar in both skills and technology. Compare the shoeboards from the '85 convention to the '05 contest shoes. The quality is way up along with the complexity of the forgings and shorter time limits. Noticed any improvement in gas forges since then?
Every one of those contests you listed were competitions for STUDENTS of their trade, with the exception of lumberjacks.
A STUDENT competition is for incentive to help learn the trade while you are in school, like a spelling bee.
You will not find *graduated* vets, dentists or doctors entering competitions.
Find me one of those competitions and I will eat my words.
As to the one exception in your list, lumberjacking, Lumberjack competitions are nothing like real modern day lumberjacking.
They are designed to recognize very old tradition. Their competitions involve skills abandoned for the most part, long ago giving way to modern, fully mechanized forestry harvesting methods. Sort of like forging vcompetitions preserving old methods of shoemaking when factories crank every concevable type shape and sizes,to fit just anout every situation.I haven't found a single horse in ALL the years I have been shoeing there was never a factory shoe did not do the job well, sometimes with a minor modification that was a simple change with a LITTLE simple forging (like a clip, square toe or change the shape of a factory bar shoe),or a welder.
The horse gives a **** whether you hand made it or notas long as he goes sounder.
Ready made shoes work GREAT if you choose the right one for the job.
The bad rap copmes from the poorly trained iron hangers who slap diamond specials on everything without so much as re-shaping them to fit fronts and hinds.
As to artists competitions, that is ART, not science or medicine, both of which form the largest part of effective farriery.
Blacksmith all you want if you want to learn to make prettier shoes and really like to bang iron. Blacksmithing is art. An OLD art. In this day and age with all the new materials and knowledge, (as well as portable welders), that art needs to be only a VERY SMALL part of effective, scientific, sound farriery.
Patty

Rick Burten

08-23-2005, 10:49 PM

This has to be some of the most despicable fearmongoring and lies that have been spewed by some agendized mis-informed *****, yet.

IIRC, the AFA farrier team is in England competing and the AFA president and ED are over there to support them.

The schools haven't slapped anyone's hand, and anyone who thinks they have is sadly mistaken and misinformed.

Now, since you referenced my proposal that the BOD be reduced in number, I can only assume that you are referring to me when you say "there(sic) political spinmaster(sic)"(which should be :"their" and "spinmeister").

Though I am loathe to do so, I feel it imperative that I point out to you the error in your thinking. I am not the "political spinmeister" of the AFA. The "Say NO! to AFEC(es) Committee", perhaps, but not the AFA.

Can you substantiate your claim that you have spoken to many farriers, both AFA members and non-members, or is this just one more instance of hubris on your part?

Two last thoughts on this subject:

1. the membership elects the leadership. And, it won't be much longer before there is a change of at least two, and perhaps three members of the EC.

2. When an industry is run by anyone, free and independent or not, it is no longer a free and independent industry. While making the correlations necessary requires a bit higher plane of thinking and intelligence, I think that if you try really hard, you may begin to grasp the significance of that.

Henry Heymering, RMF

08-23-2005, 11:16 PM

Hi Roy, et. al -

I find I can operate here if my wife goes to bed early and I can use her computer. :D

Roy, you said you thought #1 and #3 were mutually exclusive. They are not. First of all, to be effective with the legislators doesn't necessarily take large numbers -- sometimes even one individual (lobbyist or citizen) can have a profound effect. Secondly, if every existing AFA member is grandfathered in as I suggested then there is no reduction in numbers.

Patti answered the contest question quite well.

The occupations that have contests tend to split into two groups - the ones who do it for a living and those who compete. Rodeo is a prime example. Working cowboys got together to have fun and improve. However, now the rodeo cowboys are likely to not be working cowboys... and the working cowboys are likely to not be rodeo competitors - they are two separate groups. I suspect the same is true of lumberjacks. I suspect that if we continue to promote contests that the same will happen with farriers.

- Henry

Phil Armitage

08-24-2005, 07:42 AM

Would be interesting to see a response from Walt Taylor.

Thank you Henery for takeing the time to write your letter expressing your views and ideas and shareing it here on a public forum. I liked what I read and find it to be respectfull, professional, sincere and genuine.

Phil Armitage

08-24-2005, 07:46 AM

Henry Heymering, RMF

08-24-2005, 07:55 AM

You know - I find it hard to believe that when a farrier buckles down to work on a horse during a contest that shoeing the horse for it's best welfare and benefit is the first thing on his mind.

Unfortunately, that's not what is judged in these contests - speed and appearance are the criteria, not what best suits the individual horse. In fact, it's possible for the winner to have fabulous looking feet, but the horse could walk away lame - hmmmmm.

Isn't shoeing the horse in the best way possible for that individual animal really the criteria for a professional?

Thoughts?

Kyrie - (logged in under Henry's ID)

Tom Stovall, CJF

08-24-2005, 08:14 AM

calshoer in teal deletia in places

You will not find *graduated* vets, dentists or doctors entering competitions.

True - but Henry's description of a dentists' tooth filling competition evoked some great mental images. I can just hear some dentist competitor telling his strapped down, speculumed, victim, "Sorry, I don't have time to give you any pain killer, I'm in a helluva hurry." :)

Their [lumberjack] competitions involve skills abandoned for the most part, long ago giving way to modern, fully mechanized forestry harvesting methods. Sort of like forging vcompetitions preserving old methods of shoemaking when factories crank every concevable type shape and sizes,to fit just anout every situation.I haven't found a single horse in ALL the years I have been shoeing there was never a factory shoe did not do the job well, sometimes with a minor modification that was a simple change with a LITTLE simple forging (like a clip, square toe or change the shape of a factory bar shoe),or a welder.

I'll certainly agree there are factory shoes that will fit just about every situation and they are my usual weapon of choice because they will meet the needs of most horses. However, "most" is not "all" - and I've never been satisfied with giving any of the horses in my responsibility "just about" what they need. If one has even rudimentary forging skills, one need not be satisfied with "just about", one can give one's horses exactly what they need without carrying around a ton of factory made inventory or making any compromises. In the few years I've been masquerading as a farrier, I've found several horses that needed something nobody has on their truck - e.g., quarter clipped, punched, half rounds; forged toe calks, adjustable pattern shoes, etc. Admittedly, one might shoe for a lifetime without finding a horse that needs a quarter clipped, 3/4" half round hind, punched for a #6 race nail - but it happens, especially if one does much speed and/or veterinary stuff.

The horse gives a **** whether you hand made it or notas long as he goes sounder. Ready made shoes work GREAT if you choose the right one for the job.

The first order of business is always to give the horse whatever it needs to do whatever it does as best it can - which means folks who fail to develop the forging skills necessary to forge shoes from bar stock or modify blanks are forced by their own ineptitude to rely on factory shoes. Ideally, every shoe should reflect the needs of the horse, not the farrier's ineptitude - and sometimes the "right" shoe does not exist, it must be forged.

Blacksmith all you want if you want to learn to make prettier shoes and really like to bang iron. Blacksmithing is art. An OLD art. In this day and age with all the new materials and knowledge, (as well as portable welders), that art needs to be only a VERY SMALL part of effective, scientific, sound farriery.

While one can burden one's rig with all manner of esoteric shoes in hope of fulfilling every horse's needs; sooner or later, one will run across a horse that needs a shoe that can't be bought. If one has developed the necessary forging skills, one simply forges whatever manner of shoe the horse needs; if one does not have the necessary forging skills, one is forced to compromise and give the horse "just about" what it needs.

R.Revilinski

08-24-2005, 08:32 AM

Lets cut the **** here people the AFA has had pulled so much dirty underhanded political manuevering in trying to push this license registration junk through that it makes the Clinton administration look scandal free.

Walt Taylor is at the head of this snake and it must be stopped!

The AFA membership needs to get on top of this NOW!

Get the leaderships back against the wall DO NOT LEAVE THEM A WAY OUT!!

You will not hear a response from Walt he and the EC feel they are above reproach,

While you sit here talking and debating the AFA leadership is moving forward with the agenda to control this industry!

The Schools had the chance to strike the first blow and they blew it by leaving the AFA leadership a way out,

It is now up too the rank and file members to put a stop to this once and for all!!

Contact the BoD let yourself be heard ask for the resignations of the people who are killing our industry and our AFA!!

Mike Ferrara

08-24-2005, 09:35 AM

The occupations that have contests tend to split into two groups - the ones who do it for a living and those who compete. Rodeo is a prime example. Working cowboys got together to have fun and improve. However, now the rodeo cowboys are likely to not be working cowboys... and the working cowboys are likely to not be rodeo competitors - they are two separate groups. I suspect the same is true of lumberjacks. I suspect that if we continue to promote contests that the same will happen with farriers.

- Henry

I think this could be just what I'm looking for. Rather than shoe a bunch of horses every day maybe I could do just one a week/month for prize money! Maybe I wouldn't even have to shoe a whole horse. Maybe I could get by with just a foot or even just making the shoe. Of course if it doesn't have to go on a horse the shoe could be made more interesting and have added function like a door knocker or wall hook (I make a pretty neat horseshoe belt buckle BTW). We could even put sculptures of animal heads or leaves on it to make it more decorative. If the sport gets popular enough maybe the prize money/salaries will get up to what some of the other athletes make.

Mike Ferrara

08-24-2005, 10:24 AM

Blacksmith all you want if you want to learn to make prettier shoes and really like to bang iron. Blacksmithing is art. An OLD art. In this day and age with all the new materials and knowledge, (as well as portable welders), that art needs to be only a VERY SMALL part of effective, scientific, sound farriery.
Patty

As one who enjoys blacksmithing beyond what's involved in farriery I find this a really interesting arguement. Tom raised some good points in that sometimes you just don't have what you need whether it's available from the factory or not. It seems to me that there is a trade off. You can invest more in inventory or do more fabrication. Inventory costs money to buy and to keep while time at the forge usually pays far less than time under a horse. Which is more profitable in a specific farriers practice probably depnds on lots of things.

I like knowing that with a gas forge in the truck, a coal forge in the shop, a little welder in the truck, a big one in the shop ect, I could probably fabricate just about anything I might ever need. It just seems that I don't need to all that often. At the same time, at the moment, I don't buy clipped shoes because they cost a couple bucks more per pair and I can put clips on a shoe pretty fast and easy. I used to forge all my toe weights from bar stock but now there are nice blanks on the market that save a ton of time (and your arm) drawing out heavy stock. It all comes down to what's more cost effective/profitable in a given instance.

Still my guess is that as time goes on there will be less and less blacksmithing needed in farriery and there will be less farriers able to do it. Aready, there are plenty of successful (and profitable) farriers who don't even own a forge. In light of this, I really think that a more appropriate test for a farrier is to be able to address the specific needs of a horse (could be staged for a test) with no regard given to whether the solution is purchased or fabricated. IOW, more pmphysis placed on solving the problem, which is what we have to be able to do on the job. While I can build a forge welded bar shoe, given a choice on the job I'm probably more likely to address the problem some other way or even arc weld a bar accross a shoe I already have. Isn't it really a matter of having the tools/options you need available and being able to apply them to achieve the desired results?

Rick Burten

08-25-2005, 08:25 AM

Hey Rick, I don't think you meant this to be a response to Henery did you? It looks like you were responding to the last post on the "Give the AFA a chance thread"

Wouldn't you know it? The first time I don't first quote the original post, I create confusion.

My post was in response to that of one R. Revilinski and his mad hatter rhetoric which he posted on every forum he could think of. It would appear that "The BARON" has (ahem) redacted :D Mr. Revilinski's reviled, regurgitated, ridiculous, rantings.

Sorry for the confusion.

R.Revilinski

08-25-2005, 09:06 AM

Here are a few rules that will help you in your day to day life, right now they will help you in dealing with the AFA leadership

1) Never allow yourself to be a victim
(do not become the victim of a few misguided zealots who want to destroy your business and your orginizition)

2) If somebody hits you hit them back HARDER!
( Hit the AFA leadership where it hurts, contact your BoD member the AFA office go to Omaha, get Walt Taylor and his band of thugs removed)

3) Stay in control of your own destiny
(Be heard, and take action!! YOU and only YOU can control this situation not the executive committee)

Call write email fax be heard contact every member you can, contact your BoD members let the AFA leadership now we will not tolerate the dirty little political tricks they like to pull, let them now rank and file members will not tolerate them now or ever!!

handandhammer

08-25-2005, 09:50 AM

4) Don't hold strong opinions about things you do not understand.

R.Revilinski

08-25-2005, 10:13 AM

Handandhammer

You are absolutley correct

4) Do not hold strong opinions of things you do not understand
( The Afa Leadership Walt especially has no understanding of the damage that is currently being done to the AFA and the farrier industry by the ramming of his beliefs down the throats of others)

Rick Burten

08-25-2005, 10:25 AM

[QUOTE=R.Revilinski]>Here are a few rules that will help you in your day to day life, right now they will help you in dealing with the AFA leadership

>1) Never allow yourself to be a victim
(do not become the victim of a few misguided zealots who want to destroy your business and your orginizition)

Speaking of zealots(not to mention mis-guided fanatics,rabid dogs, and jackas*es) have you looked in the mirror lately?

>2) If somebody hits you hit them back HARDER!
( Hit the AFA leadership where it hurts, contact your BoD member the AFA office go to Omaha, get Walt Taylor and his band of thugs removed)

Teddy Roosevelt said: "Walk softly and carry a big stick". good advise for the time. Personally, I never bring a knife to a gun fight, and I always have at least one back up gun on my person.

In case you missed it, Walt Taylor is not the leader of the conspiracy of your mind, or anything else. He is the Secretary of the AFA and defacto, a member of the AFA. As such, he has the same right as any other member of the AFA to express his opinions.

If perchance, you are going to Omaha, I hope you will display the cojones to stand up in front of the the EC, and call them, each by his own name, "thugs"

I hope the entire proceedings are videotaped as the results should be worth a lot of money.

However, I doubt this will come to pass since persons of your ilk are brave from a distance and behind a barrier, but seem to turn into puddles of melted jello when actually called upon to speak up in person. Interestingly enough, those puddles of jello are usually yellow in color.

>3) Stay in control of your own destiny
(Be heard, and take action!! YOU and only YOU can control this situation not the executive committee)

Have you been asleep under a rock somewhere(perhaps since the mid-60's?) This is old news and dated advise.

>Call write email fax be heard contact every member you can, contact your BoD members let the AFA leadership now we will not tolerate the dirty little political tricks they like to pull, let them now rank and file members will not tolerate them now or ever

"Rank and file members" Hmmmm, 'case you missed it, the AFA is not a union and has no "rank and file members. The AFA is its members and the members are the AFA, whether they hold office or not.

Now Mr? Ms? Mrs? Revilinski, I did a search of the membership roster of the AFA and could find no one of your name listed. So, either you were a member and have not paid your annual dues, or you were never a member, or you are using a nom de plume here. Regardless, until shown otherwise, you are in no position to expound on the AFA or to make calls to arms of the membership. Your attempt at vitriol towards the AFA is , at best, humerous, and at worst, cannon fodder or, bat guano, your choice. Further, many of the claims you have made are lies, both of the "little white" variety, and of the "big, bold, black variety".

I have neither the time nor the patience to go back through your rantings to find those of each variety, so don't ask.

Your boorishness now bores me, though I do find you to be an amusing little trinket(not to be confused with a "Trnka") to toy with.

To paraphrase the Bard, "Rant on, McDuff..."

Henry Heymering, RMF

08-25-2005, 06:22 PM

Hi Rick -

It sounds like you are making this discussion with R. Revelinski personal.

Revelinski is essentially correct. From all I can gather, Walt Taylor was the instigator of the task force, and it's head. Walt Taylor suggested keeping it secret, and the task force was kept from the membership and BoD in violation of the bylaws. The bylaws require that the BoD be informed and vote to keep or drop any task force that has been formed at the next meeting. The task force was formed and operated several months before last year's mid-year board meeting, yet it was kept secret from the BoD.

If you are happy letting the AFA be run by a handful of individuals that do not follow the bylaws then don't worry about it. If you think the bylaws should be followed and that you want to have a say in the AFA with your membership then Revelinski's exhortations to contact your Board member and put a stop to the shenanigans is good advice.

- Henry

calshoer

08-25-2005, 09:44 PM

The first order of business is always to give the horse whatever it needs to do whatever it does as best it can - which means folks who fail to develop the forging skills necessary to forge shoes from bar stock or modify blanks are forced by their own ineptitude to rely on factory shoes. Ideally, every shoe should reflect the needs of the horse, not the farrier's ineptitude - and sometimes the "right" shoe does not exist, it must be forged.
I take umbrage that you imply ineptitude. It is not that at all. I just never found a need for all that hand forging. I do not want to sidetrack this thread too much from the licencing part other than to say that by combining various alternative materials, creativity, thorough knowledge of the mechanics of the hoof and what the individual situation needs, along with the VERY occasional welder and the occasional clip, I have been able to fully meet the mechanics of whatever situation came along. I can treat anything you can treat just as effectively ,without hand forging it from scratch.
For example...It doesn't take a forged patten shoe to treat a lacerated tendon. There are lots of other ways to effectively raise and support that hoof ,(adjustable to boot) without hand forging anything from scratch.
As to clips, I used to use them as much as anyone, but since I began applying NB principles, my clients VERY RARELY lose shoes. I currently clip exactly one horse out of a couple hundred because she is big and plays HARD along the fence and would shear nails. Performance horses included in the "no clip" gang. Balance them right and they don't pull shoes. :cool:
That al lIwill say on the forging matter. Go make some ranch signs.
Patty

Roy Amaral CJF

08-25-2005, 10:21 PM

Barron and Rick- bet you a dollar if you look through the logs "lamynitis" and "r.revilinski" have the same IP adress.http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/cwm/cwm/uhoh3.gif

Rick Burten

08-25-2005, 10:33 PM

Hi Henry

[QUOTE=Henry Heymering, RMF>]Hi Rick -

>It sounds like you are making this discussion with R. Revelinski personal.

Absolutely! Revilinski made it such with his/her/neuter gender ad hominem .Along with his/her/its continued baseless and non-factual misrepresentations of aleged feets(sic) of less than derring-do by the EC, the first Ad Hoc committee, the Executive Director(by inference, and the rest of us 'wascally wabbits".

Further this unspecified gender person, writes as though he/she/it is a member of the AFA, and thus is entitled to have a voice in the affairs of the AFA. Yet, no record of his/her/its membership seems to exist. So, until we know otherwise, he/she/it is nothing more than an agent provacteur, an agendized rabble rouser who has no vested interest in the affairs of the AFA.
Should he/she/it be able to provide some proof that he/she/it is indeed a current member of the AFA, then he/she/it and everyone else reading this, can consider this to be my apology to him/her/it for any comments I have made relative to his/her/its membership status in the AFA.

>Revelinski is essentially correct. From all I can gather, Walt Taylor was the instigator of the task force, and it's head.

We are talking about the first task force/Ad Hoc Committee, Right? The one that was well within the purview of the President of the AFA to form, right? The Ad Hoc committee/task force that did not need approval of the BoD to be formed, right? The one that was disbanded, right? The one that did indeed make a report to the BoD at the earliest opportunity, right? The one whose recommendations were , with one notable exception, vetoed, right?

>Walt Taylor suggested keeping it secret, and the task force was kept from the membership and BoD in violation of the bylaws.

I don't have a copy of the current by-laws of the AFA, so I won't debate this with you except to say that if you or anyone else feels that there was a clear violation of the by-laws, and that that violation is actionable, then you(the individual and the collective) should take whatever steps you feel necessary to right this wrong and to insure it never happens again. Talking to me about it, accomplishes nothing.

> The bylaws require that the BoD be informed and vote to keep or drop any task force that has been formed at the next meeting. The task force was formed and operated several months before last year's mid-year board meeting, yet it was kept secret from the BoD.

No, according to you, the by-laws require that the BOD be informed of such committees at their next regular meeting. And, according to you, and the official records, the BOD was informed at the first available meeting, which was the mid-year. Is that correct, or is my time line incorrect? And, not only did the board give advise and consent regarding the committee/task force, but it acted, and, IMNTBHO, acted quite decisively. So where is the violation?

>If you are happy letting the AFA be run by a handful of individuals that do not follow the bylaws then don't worry about it.

It has yet to be shown, let alone determined, that the AFA EC and/or the BOD do/did not follow the by-laws.

>If you think the bylaws should be followed and that you want to have a say in the AFA with your membership then Revelinski's exhortations to contact your Board member and put a stop to the shenanigans is good advice.

Good advise is one thing. The fearmongoring, erroneous information, dishonesty and whining are another.

And lest we forget, twice, the question of whether or not the EC should be removed from office was brought to the floor of the BoD meeting and seconded. And, twice, the BOD voted "NO" when the question was called.

Contact your board rep. Perhaps it will do some good. My instinct tells me differently because there are not enough people who will make the effort to contact their rep and make their feelings known. Better yet, attend the BoD meeting and make your feelings known to all the BOD reps present. And, at the Annual Meeting, make motions from the floor and see if you can get them passed.

Better yet, get yourself(the collective) nominated , run a campaign, get elected, and lead the AFA according to your(and hopefully, the membership's) vision.

Or, just whine and complain and snivel(not you Henry, but those who do so, know who they are) to us here in cyberspace. Its like dancing with your sister. It gets the job done, but is much less than truely satisfying.

~Rick~

ps: Henry, I notice that you have stopped using the (earned)appellation, "CJF" and I am wondering why?

tbloomer

08-26-2005, 08:21 AM

(deletia)
And lest we forget, twice, the question of whether or not the EC should be removed from office was brought to the floor of the BoD meeting and seconded. And, twice, the BOD voted "NO" when the question was called.

I can't help but wonder how the BoD would have voted if they had had the chance to read Walt's manifesto. Since I have been working on distributing "the manafesto" to the BoD, I have learned that most of the board members never saw this do***ent and were not aware of the "need for secrecy."

Someone leaked "Walt's manifesto" outside the "need to know" group. Eventually it made its way onto the Internet. I believe that it was Walt's intention to keep the contents of these do***ents a secret until such time as it was no longer possible to "stop the train."

Since Walt, Craig, Jeff, et. al. have continued to promote their political views from the soapbox using official AFA publications, they have caused the AFA to come under additional political scrutiny.

The BoD voted to take licensing and registration off the table. HOWEVER, Walt and his followers have kept the subject on the table by spouting their fear tactics and making unfounded assertions about PETA, the "vets", and the govrenment to the AFA membership in every publication of the newsletter and PF magazine.

I am not certain that Walt and his followers have done anything actionable. But I will make a substantial effort IN PERSON and FACE to FACE to make sure that the BoD takes a long hard look at the political fallout and the precieved direction of the AFA when they meet in September.

Tom Bloomer, CF

Rick Burten

08-26-2005, 09:23 AM

I am not certain that Walt and his followers have done anything actionable. But I will make a substantial effort IN PERSON and FACE to FACE to make sure that the BoD takes a long hard look at the political fallout and the precieved direction of the AFA when they meet in September.

Tom Bloomer, CF

Good deal Tom. then at least we will have a more factual accounting.

I don't know why Walt's white paper never made it to the BOD. But, since speculation seems to be the order of the day, perhaps once the EC saw what was contained in the paper, they decided it was 'not going to fly". After all, it was titled as a discussion guideline. If the EC felt that the direction of the paper was not the direction the AFA was going, then there would be no need to present it to the BOD, any more than if you or I had presented the paper to the EC and they rebuffed it.

What additional political scrutiny has come as a result of what Craig, Walt or Jeff have said? Is what they have said any more or less important than what Doug Butler has said? And, since holding office in any organization provides one with a "Bully Pulpit", why would you expect those in the positions of leadership not to avail themselves of that opportunity? And, even though the BOD has spoken on the issue, much like what Congress often does, that does not mean that the speakers, whether they be the President of the AFA or the President of the United States, will stop promoting their agenda. And, like so many in politics, that agenda is often kept infront of the public by persons other than the president. We, the electorate, have the opportunity to speak out and to , with our vote, make our voices emphatically heard.

Personally, based on the fallout thus far, I'd say that the AFA has done more to move forward the discussion on education, curriculum, etc., than has happened anytime in recent(and perhaps distant)memory. Without the AFA, there would be no AFEC. Without the AFA there would be no discussion about the licensing issue and what, perhaps, to do about it.

Rather than castigating Craig, Walt, Jeff, etal, perhaps we, upon reflection, owe them a debt of gratitude and a big thanks. Time will, of course, tell.

And, since I can speculate with the best of them, I don't think that the BOD vote would have been any different if they had had Walt's discussion in front of them.

That aside, if the BOD is really upset with the leadership, then they have the opportunity to do something about it in September. I'd venture a guess that the question/resolution will again be made to remove all the officers, and I think it will , once again, fail. That said, one or two individuals may not fare so well.

I do wish that our leadership had the political ac***en to know when to shut up, and how to keep some on a short leash. But I guess that is what we get when we have strong-willed individuals who make much better farriers than politicians, in the leadership roles of our association.

R.Revilinski

08-26-2005, 12:03 PM

Gary_Miller

08-26-2005, 02:33 PM

Just for our daily dose of irony, I have to mention this,

I was sitting here reading the Pro Farrier Journal, you know the official propaganda tool of the AFA July August issue page 18 has Dave fergusons statement, has anyone else noticed the advertisement under it?

Its for a three day course now I am sure that it must continueing education but its has a certain amount of humor if you consider the current situation,

Where is the humor?
It's a Bob Marshall advertisement one of the most respected forging instructors in the farrier busness. Bought and paid for I'm sure by Bob Marshall himself.

If you knew anything about the industry you would know this.

Gary

IRNWKR_2

08-26-2005, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by R.Revilinski
Just for our daily dose of irony, I have to mention this,

I was sitting here reading the Pro Farrier Journal, you know the official propaganda tool of the AFA July August issue page 18 has Dave fergusons statement, has anyone else noticed the advertisement under it?

Its for a three day course now I am sure that it must continueing education but its has a certain amount of humor if you consider the current situation,

I dont get it??

Rick Burten

08-26-2005, 04:59 PM

I dont get it??

Don't worry, its not you. There is nothing to get. The bum who wrote that drivel is apparently writing under a pseudonym because he/she/it lacks the intestinal fortitude and cojones to post under their real name, and by so doing, accept responsibility, credit or blame for what was written.

Like I said, all this Revilinski has to do is offer evidence of who he/she/it is, and should that happen and it turns out that Revilinski is a current member of the AFA, then he/she/it has my apologies for calling into question whether or not he/she/it is in a position to maliciously attack the AFA with innuendo and pervarications(sounds so much better than "lies", don't you think?).

Henry Heymering, RMF

08-26-2005, 08:31 PM

Hi Rick -

I'm not used to using my wife's PC ...I'm used to a Mac ... so forgive me for not answering all you said....

Rick> No, according to you, the by-laws require that the BOD be informed of such committees at their next regular meeting. And, according to you, and the official records, the BOD was informed at the first available meeting, which was the mid-year. Is that correct, or is my time line incorrect? And, not only did the board give advise and consent regarding the committee/task force, but it acted, and, IMNTBHO, acted quite decisively. So where is the violation?

No, apparently the BoD was not informed at the mid-year meeting last year, but only at the Feb. annual meeting.... so the task force worked illegally, in secret, for 6 months.

As for dropping the CJF.... I still use it occasionally ... but the typical convention is to only use the highest title you have ... simply PhD for example, rather than Kindergarden graduate, Grade School graduate, High School Graduate, BS, MS, PhD ...

- Henry

tbloomer

08-26-2005, 08:45 PM

(deletia)
What additional political scrutiny has come as a result of what Craig, Walt or Jeff have said? Is what they have said any more or less important than what Doug Butler has said?

Doug Butler has not proposed that we "embrace socialism" as a means of improving our profession. In my opinion, Walt, Craig, and anyone else who thinks that regulating farriers will make the world a better place, is a SOCIALIST.

Why don't these guys just move to the UK? They already have licensing and registration over there. They also accept the CJF credential in the UK. All Walt has to do to be legal in the UK is pass the CJF exam . . . why he hasn't done that? Why in his 3 decades of involvement with the AFA has Walt Taylor never earned the CJF?

Could it be that he can't pass the test? Since Walt is so fired up about education and regulation and qualification, would sombody please tell me why this guy has not passed the CJF exam? If he can't pass the exam, what tangeable evidence is there that makes him think he has the qualifications to determine who is and who is not qualified to shoe horses?

As far as horseshoeing credentials go, I'm not sure anybody trumps Doug Butler. Yet, Butler has not attempted to create a monopoly by regulation. Nobody passed a law that said P3 shall be the standard text book used in American horsesheoing schools. It is the free market that made that decision.

Yes, Butler has identified weaknesses in the way farriers are educated AND he has dedicated his entire life to improving that situation.

Rick, you can't compare apples to apples Walt's words vs Doug's words. The motivation behind the message is as different as libertarian is from socialist.

Tom Bloomer, CF

tbloomer

08-26-2005, 09:05 PM

If perchance, you are going to Omaha, I hope you will display the cojones to stand up in front of the the EC, and call them, each by his own name, "thugs"

I will be in Omaha, and I will call an elitest socialist snob as such. If any of those to whom I have applied that title decide to react thuggishly to my calling them what they by their own actions and public utterances have thus far defined themselves to be, then I shall deal with the tactical situation in a manner suitable for the occasion.

Cry Havoc . . . and get my lawyer on the phone! ROTFL

Tom Bloomer, CF

Rick Burten

08-27-2005, 05:32 AM

>Doug Butler has not proposed that we "embrace socialism" as a means of improving our profession. In my opinion, Walt, Craig, and anyone else who thinks that regulating farriers will make the world a better place, is a SOCIALIST.

What ever floats your boat. Along the "Capitalism to Communism "continuum, where does that put the idea of a standardized curriculum for subscribing schools?

>Why don't these guys just move to the UK? They already have licensing and registration over there. They also accept the CJF credential in the UK. All Walt has to do to be legal in the UK is pass the CJF exam . . . why he hasn't done that? Why in his 3 decades of involvement with the AFA has Walt Taylor never earned the CJF?

Could it be that he can't pass the test? Since Walt is so fired up about education and regulation and qualification, would sombody please tell me why this guy has not passed the CJF exam? If he can't pass the exam, what tangeable evidence is there that makes him think he has the qualifications to determine who is and who is not qualified to shoe horses?

Good and interesting questions. Perhaps you'll get answers in Omaha.

>As far as horseshoeing credentials go, I'm not sure anybody trumps Doug Butler. Yet, Butler has not attempted to create a monopoly by regulation. Nobody passed a law that said P3 shall be the standard text book used in American horsesheoing schools. It is the free market that made that decision.

>Yes, Butler has identified weaknesses in the way farriers are educated AND he has dedicated his entire life to improving that situation.

Of course, there was no financial incentive involved either, right? And , has he done any more than anyone/everyone else?

>Rick, you can't compare apples to apples Walt's words vs Doug's words.

Sure I can, Tom. I just did. 8-). And I thought that one couldn't compare, apples to oranges.

> The motivation behind the message is as different as libertarian is from socialist.

Personally, I don't care what the motivation was. The message is strikingly similar and I choose to take the same inferences from each.

Tom Bloomer, CF

I'll be away from the computer most of the weekend(Ride farrier for the Arabian/Half Arabian National Competitive Trail Ride), but will try to check back here of an evening as possible.

Rick Burten

08-27-2005, 05:41 AM

I will be in Omaha, and I will call an elitest socialist snob as such. If any of those to whom I have applied that title decide to react thuggishly to my calling them what they by their own actions and public utterances have thus far defined themselves to be, then I shall deal with the tactical situation in a manner suitable for the occasion.

Cry Havoc . . . and get my lawyer on the phone! ROTFL

Tom Bloomer, CF

I'm sure your pointing out the personal shortcomings of each of the members of the EC will be quite productive, constructive and illustrative.

Unless you are masquarading as R. Revilinski, you do realize that my comments on that particular subject were directed at him/her/it, right?

QUESTION: As the farrier walked into the bar, what did his buddy yell?

ANSWER: DUCK!

tbloomer

08-27-2005, 09:46 AM

I'm sure your pointing out the personal shortcomings of each of the members of the EC will be quite productive, constructive and illustrative.

Unless you are masquarading as R. Revilinski, you do realize that my comments on that particular subject were directed at him/her/it, right?
The EC started their train by pointing out the shortcomings of our profession. Then they proposed that they "should be" the ones to solve "the problem" by promoting regulation. Their political strategy and tactics are the exact same strategy and tactics used by the extreme left . . . socialists.

OTOH, Butler is pointing out the shortcomings of our profession as a marketing tool for his educational products. These are the actions of a capitalist. In order for Butler to be successful he has to create a market demand for his products.

The AFA would do well as an organization if they used the same marketing approach to promote their certification program to horse owners. Right or wrong, good or bad, a product or idea that succeeds in the free market does so because it has been successfully promoted. If the AFA were to promote farrier certification to horse owners by advertising certified farriers as qualified farriers, you can bet your last dollar that a bunch of non certified farriers would be insulted by the inference that they are not qualified. However, if the AFA were to enter into a marketing campaign to convince horse owners that certified farriers are better qualified (right or wrong), once the market had that “perception,” the demand for certification would overwhelm the objections. Membership would increase and the number of farriers seeking certification would increase.

A perfect example of the power of marketing, supply, and demand can influence a trade – look at the barefoot movement. It is growing exponentially in spite of the efforts of its detractors. Why? Because the promoters of the movement have a good salesmanship and marketing strategy. You can argue against the movement, but you can’t stop a successful marketing campaign with the sheer force of reason. If it were otherwise, Stovall would have shut them down years ago.

In their frustration over their failure to attract members and capture market share, the "powers that WOULD be" have decided that they "ought" to take control of the market by force. My response to this notion is that "they" ought to be prepared to reap what weeds they have sewn. That includes me pointing out their shortcomings (although I can’t see how a socialist would consider it an insult or an assertion of shortcoming to be thus labeled) and if need be, providing them with a definition of socialism along with a clear explanation of how they have defined themselves as socialists.

Yes, Rick I realize that you were directing your comments at someone or something else. But I get so much enjoyment out of your contributions to the forum I can’t stop myself from jumping in and fanning the flame. Anything that I can do to inspire further entertainment is worth the effort.

Tom Bloomer, CF

Rick Burten

08-27-2005, 11:17 PM

[QUOTE=tbloomer

Yes, Rick I realize that you were directing your comments at someone or something else. But I get so much enjoyment out of your contributions to the forum I can’t stop myself from jumping in and fanning the flame. Anything that I can do to inspire further entertainment is worth the effort.

Tom Bloomer, CF[/QUOTE]

glad we got that straightened out. Doesn't take much to fan the flames, does it? :o

And, regardless of motivation, each ended up saying the same thing. So, in essence, damning the AFA with faint praise also does the same for Butler. I wonder whose position is the more altruistic?

And TomB(as opposed to TomS) you didn't answer the question I posed as to where the new AFEC proposal for a uniform application of a standardized curriculum falls on the socialist to communist continuum.

tbloomer

08-28-2005, 08:58 AM

And TomB(as opposed to TomS) you didn't answer the question I posed as to where the new AFEC proposal for a uniform application of a standardized curriculum falls on the socialist to communist continuum.
In the past every school had to design their own curriculum. Over time, I'm sure that most if not all schools have changed - evolved their programs so to speak - in order to meet the needs of market demand.

Prior to the release of P3, most of the US farrier schools were using P2 as their text book. P2 was not laid out as a sequential learning guide. Therefore the "defacto standard" text book left it up to the schools to lay out their course progression.

P3 is designed to provide a sequential learning system. It is designed to be used as a horseshoeing school text book - whereas P2 was more of a reference manual.

I believe that, regardless of what has happened in recent farrier industry politics, most of the farrier schools in the US were already planning to switch their courses to follow the format of P3. Why? Because Butler has done all the work of designing a modern farrier course.

For any farrier school owners, upgrading/migrating to the new P3 format is far easier than it would be to retrofit their own curriculum and course materials to use P3 only as a reference book. Think of all the time and energy you would expend to revamp your entire curriculum. All course outlines, lectures, and labs would have to be rewritten with updated reference pages.

Let's assume that most of the schools were planning to upgrade to P3, but they were putting it off until they had time to review the book. Now along comes the AFA with their "assessment" of farrier schools. The political fallout provided a catalyst which pushed the schools into doing sooner what they were very likely going to do anyway. The difference is that the AFEC has brought the teachers together into one place where Butler can guide them through the process of setting up their new curriculum.

The biggest winner in this whole thing is Doug Butler. The looser is the AFA, because as an organization they could have accomplished the exact same result without causing all of the political fallout.

What is that result? DEFACTO ACCREDITATION WITHOUT REGULATION.

If the AFA had encouraged the schools to get together with Butler and standardize their courses . . . instead they caused that result to occur outside the umbrella of the AFA. What a shame! What a ridicules manifestations of reverse psychology!

"as to where the new AFEC proposal for a uniform application of a standardized curriculum falls on the socialist to communist continuum." Heck if I know. One thing for sure, BUTLER IS A CAPATALIST.

The AFA can take credit for providing the impetus for a uniform application of a standardized curriculum. Unfortunately, in my opinion, they cannot generate any good will from the results. I hope that somehow the AFA can find a way to place a positive political spin on this whole thing. However, the only man I can think of that has the “political talent” to do such is Gene Ovenick. ROTFL!

Tom Bloomer, CF