Any advice on starting out?

[airborne137]

Hi!
I am considering attending an 8 week farrier course and have hopes to begin my own business. I have a few questions for those who are experienced in this field. My first question is, how difficult is it to build a client base for a new horseshoeing business? Second, what is the average charge per job? Or does it vary depending on differnt cir***stances? Also, I am thinking of going into the business with a partner, is this a smart move?
Thank you for any advice you can give!
Jeff Woliver

[Double C Forge]

Well 1st off I hope you love horses. You need to in order to do this job and do it well. To take a horse that walks up to you lame and walk away either sound or much better then he was is a very satisfying thing within itself. You must also love to work hard, work while ppl constantly talk to you, be open minded (to an extent) LOL! , know when to bite your tounge off, know when to speak your mind and when to pack up and go on to another barn.

Going to a school is a very wise thing. It will give you all of the basics so when you graduate you can then learn to start shoeing horses. What I mean is that you will have to learn what works for the horse and you. Everything is not always the same. After you graduate school it is wise to find a well established farrier that you can apprentice under and cultivate your skills under the horse and in the fire as well. He/She can teach you from their trials and errors and save you alot of grief. Everything about being a farrier can't be taught from a book but you do need the books.

Now as far as building your client base after your apprenticeship. That should not be that difficult but it depends on supply and demand in the area that you are in. I have heard of folks starting out and being completely booked within a short period and sometimes it took some time before that would happen. Checking w/ local feed stores or tack shop and leaving a business card or 2 will bring some clients your way.

Charges can be anywhere from 35.00 (we all know this type, also referred to as "The drunk Farrier") for a basic shoeing to 140.00 depending on again the area you are in and your experience and expertise. Supply and demand.

Now on to the partner thing. Can't see that happening in this business cause its basically a one person job, unless your partner is going to hold the leg for you........lol (hey thats not a bad idea, hehe) Unfortunately the downside to a partner usually is that one person does all of the work and both take home a check.

Go to school, study hard and learn the basics and then ride w/ several different farriers and you will develop and learn your own technique. Join your local associations and the AFA also go to clinics whenever you can to find out about new ideas, tools and techniques as they become available. A farrier never stops learning. Whether you have been doing it for 1 year or 50 years. I hope this will answer your questions as I was in your same shoes not too awful long ago.

One of the best sources that I found for info was right here on this forum. There is a wealth of info in each and every farrier here. I know that Bill, Jaye, Patty, Phil, Scott, Tim or some of the many other experienced farriers on this site can give you more insight than I but I remember having the same questions myself.

Most of all................." Take care of the Horse! "

C. Clark :)

[Dave Purves]

Starting out is rough, and I mean rough. Most people watch thier farrier work and think, "that looks easy enough" and then they try it. Many farriers go to school, come home think that things will be easy and give it up within a year or two. I would bet that if you took a survey 2 out of 3 farriers that graduate from a school quit in the first couple of years. It took me 4 years to build a clientelle. I did all kinds of horses for all kinds of people and decided quickly that I would only keep the good ones. I charged the same price as the guy that I rode with and I'm glad I did it that way, now I have a good client base with very little turnover, I didn't undercut the prices of other farriers so I didn't pi$$ any other farriers off. Find the best farrier in your area and make a point to ride with them if you can before you go to school, make sure this is what you want to do. Then go to school, and work with him or her more. As far as a partner goes, I think it could work but you would have to really work out the details. Another farrier and I are partners in a shop where owners haul in to us one day a week. If two horses come in then we go to work and keep what we made if only one comes in we both work together to shoe the horse, one trims and measures, the other makes the shoes and nails them up, and if we're lucky we'll have someone like yourself doing the finish work. Then we split the money down the middle. It works for us but it's only one day a week, if he wants the day off, I get the money and vice versa. If it's an every day thing then who buys the truck? Who drives the truck home? Who gets called when there is a shoe off? I think there are pro's and con's to both but I wouldn't suggest you go into this business with a partner that has the same experience as yourself. Two rookies together is dangerous. Ride with someone and learn, after a year or two when your skills and knowledge are up to par, then you may want to consider the partnership thing.
Good luck
Dave Purves CF :cool:

[shoesofiron]

Hi!
My first question is, how difficult is it to build a client base for a new horseshoeing business?

The business is a wide open field for anyone who possesses the prerequisites.
It's not a business for anyone thinking they can make some easy money and it will take some years to build the kind of clientele base that you want.

Second, what is the average charge per job?

10% of the average mortage payment in your area.
No one should EVER have to shoe more than 10 horses to make their house payment. That's the bare minimum, period. But... it won't happen. In my area, the range of payments is between $800-$1200 but we have a half dozen or so guys out there that are charging $40-$45. Truthfully, I wish there was some way to make them see how badly they mishape the public perception of our trade by their bargain basement pricing.

Also, I am thinking of going into the business with a partner, is this a smart move?

Not until you can pull your own weight. And when I say your own weight, I mean able to build any shoe in any situation without feeling the need to necessarily consult with your partner before you make a move. Whether or not you ever get your CJF from the AFA is up to you, but you need to cultivate the skills necessary to accomplish that in order to be a good, knowledgeable farrier.
In my mind, it's kind of like carpenters and plumbers.
You wouldn't call a guy a carpenter if he couldn't read a plan, cut the wood, build the project and finish it in a timely manner. If all he could do was assemble the pieces, he really isn't a carpenter.
Same way with plumbing.
If a guy can't read a house, cut, thread, and assemble an efficient system for water usage, just buy the pipes in an approximate length, slap on some pipe dope and get it close... he's not a plumber.
Same way for shoers.
If you can't build shoes from scratch, you're not a farrier in my book.
(believe me, I just honked off a bunch of people but... tough. I call 'em like I see 'em)

[airborne137]

Thank all of you for answering my questions at length. I appreciate your help very much.

[coreen harris]

Starting out is rough, and I mean rough. Most people watch thier farrier work and think, "that looks easy enough" and then they try it. Many farriers go to school, come home think that things will be easy

Danvers wrote in another thread about owners soon finding this forum. I'm both sides I guess. I watched farriers work and just got mad, they were wrecking my horse's hooves, not by virtue of shoeing, but bad practice. Its NOT easy enough, but dang it its FUN (oh lordy I can hear the snerks and giggles). I approach a hoof as a potential work of art. I approach a horse as a patient with a problem in need of understanding. (I'm an RN of 20 years, or... was). I approach an owner as I see them, and it ain't always purty. Had to really bite my tongue with a girl who had a mare that had WLD so bad 3/4 of each hoof were affected. She swore she could not stall this mare or confine her due to heaves, mental stuff, refused to find a way to get her out of the muc and mud, etc. This is the worst customer -the ones that make exuses why they can't help their horse that they "love" so much. There is a lot of ignorance out there about what is good for a hoof, including way too many farriers, but its the owners that need help in front of you. Horses that are in pain, even slight pain can be total rear ends, but they need understanding and patience. And so on... there are a lot of things one probably ain't gonna learn in any school about how to be.
The first thing you need to be is GOOD at whay you are doing, and HONEST. If you can't handle a situation hand it off to someone that can - it might mean giving up that customer but it also means earning some respect which will get you more customers (in theory). As an owner I can tell you that what has ticked me off most about the farriers I have "fired" is when I have a horse that I have owned for 10 years and know what works, and they tell me I am wrong and go changing it - and I end up with a horse with worsened stride, interference, etc. Listen to your customers. If you think something needs changeing, you better be able to back it up with a lot more than "oh we need to support the bony column" - that doesn't cut it. Explain what you see in that hoof and what you are doing to fix it.
And never ever ever EVER do a horse wrong out of spite - I had a guy do this when he didn't want to listen to what I knew for sure about my horse, she went lame and he got fired - this was not a case of disgruntled owner, my next farrier (who got to stay) verified that what I had experienced was real and actually appreciated the knowledge that I had at that time as just an owner.
Now I do trimming, all 11 of my own, many (healed/healing) problems, a few clients, would love to have more, would love to be able to afford school. My horses have healthier feet than they ever have except for one farrier that is now too far away for me to use.
Experience is your best friend, honesty is your best asset, and knowledge your best tool. Don't skimp on any of these.

[calshoer]

Scott, I have to disageree with the thought that to truly be be a 'good knowledgeable' farrier he or she must be able to build shoes from scratch. Any the****utuic device I have ever seen or heard of, (and successfully used myself in a lot of cases ) can be more easily and quickly built from modifications starting from a factory shoe, or even from somethign completely different than a metal shoe. And be just as effective.
With the plethora of modern materials and wide variety of factory made shoes, there is really no need any more to have to build ANY shoe totally from scratch . Unless you maybe have to build a giant shoe for a twenty hand monster draft that nothing else fits.
An experienced farrier with enough imagination , good basic forge skills and a welder, and solid knowledge about hoof biomechanics could build just about anything in any situation using modifications starting from a factory shoe, or even using something other than a shoe. (like a Steward Clog, or a PVC foal extension or brace .)
Over the years at the resquest of veterinarians or horse owners I have often followed up behind behind the work of some journeymen and winning contest farriers who do handlmades all or most the time. From those first hand observations I have concluded that being able to build shoes from scratch, even on a journeymen level , has nothing to do with undertstanding how to keep horses sound. Sure there are a lot of journeymen who DO understand the needs of the equine foot and do a terrific job, but a whole lot more do not. They know how to build anything, but what good it that if the thing they build doesn't help the horse in the long run?
On the other hand I know some fresh out of school farriers who truly learned what the foot really *needs* to remain or get sound , and thereby successfully use store bought materials to fix formerly long term lameness. Several I now of are not more than a year or two out of school yet they get the local vet referrals because their work is more effective, (and without having to forge anything from scratch).
Now just to re-emphasise something I said years ago, I DO admire those who work so hard to become great blacksmihs and learn to accurately build from sctratch. I know it takes a lot of hours of practice, and if a farrier can combine those skills with CURRENT scientific knowledge of hoof biomechanics, he will help a huge number of horses.
Shoeing is in my opinion a level of veterinary medicine. Whether on an every- day level on seemingly sound horses or on an obviously the****utic case, whenever that farrier touches those feet he is directly affecting that horses soundness. Sometimes permenantly ,good or bad.
Understanding how to insure correct function of the internal foot structures is more important than if you buy the materials to do it or hand forge something.


Journeyman level of forging skill is just isn't necessary to be an effective farrier even on a the****utic level, in today's world.
Besides the fact that time is money, as long as the farrier helps the horse effectiely, who cares (except for the farrier's own ego) if the farrier built the thing from scratch as long as it works?.
I can (and do) build tendon lacration shoes without forging a patton shoe
I can (and do) make fetlock braces without forging the shoes form scratch, just shaping a factory shoe and making additional parts with a portable welder, drill, taps and bolts.
I can (and do) make foal exension shoes from PVC pipe or alumnum plate.
I can buy just about any kind of bar shoe I might need (bar shoes are rarely the right shoe for the job anyway) and just reshape it to fit, add clips, punch more holes or whatever, without needing forge welding skills. Just basic forge skills.
I can add effective frog support without a heart bar shoe.(in fact more effective for a longer time, and more forgiving.)
I can wedge a foot to any angle with a store bought adjutable kit, and insure the whole back of the foot is properly suppoted to its individual needs at the same time.
You name it and I will tell you how it could be be made without hand forging it from scratch.
Hand building shoes is archaic and unecessary to be an effective, sound, the****utic shoer. Patty

Patty

[Dave Purves]

How about a scottish hind preventer?

[calshoer]

How many Hind preventers do you actualy USE in your everyday or the****utic preactice? Iwould never put a shoe like that on a horse. Why would a horse ever need a such a thing if he were properly balanced medial laterally (internally), aligned in the coffin joint, and breaking over correctly in the hind feet, thereby comfortable in his whole hind end? I see no practical use for such a bizzare (and I think those kinds of shoes are bizzare) shoe with the better knowledge of hoof biomechanics are available today.
That hard to forge shoe is one of many used for contests just because it IS hard to forge.,But it is also one of many which are based on a misunderstanding of what a horse needs for a sound foot and body. I won't use trailers anymore either because they strain the hocks terribly.
If the horse already had existing hind end problems and was interfering or had other compensating gait faults, I WOULD however design him a 'package' from modern materials that was truly the****utic and would not screw up the foot mechanics even worse than they already were just to cover up the symptomatic gait fault. (which is what archaic shoes like that mostly do ) Patty

[shoesofiron]

Okay, I don?t want to belabor a lot of these points but I think we?ve gotten off the focus of the question.
I just want to remind all our readers of some replies that I think are a little off base or contradictory in their context (sorry Patty) but I?ll wrap this all up at the end.

. Any the****utuic device I have ever seen or heard of, (and successfully used myself in a lot of cases ) can be more easily and quickly built from modifications starting from a factory shoe?

Shortcuts are great for people with experience. People with knowledge and years under horses really appreciate the easier ways to accomplish the same thing. It?s all about working smarter, not harder.

An experienced farrier with enough imagination , good basic forge skills?

And I have to question where these good basic forging skills come from. It?s surely not from remodifying already forged shoes. Without getting into the intricacies of metal displacement and shaping, I think it?s safe to say that without basic shoe building techniques, it is difficult at best to understand the best place to stick a nail where you need it. Until you see for yourself the way a pritchel and its pitch can vary where a nails exit depth will be, you?d only be burning up an otherwise useful shoe.

They know how to build anything, but what good it that if the thing they build doesn't help the horse in the long run?

I will be the very first to admit, acknowledge and beg for focus to change from contesting to function. But the fact of the matter is that contesting increases every aspect of your skills. In a contest, you?re shoeing to a prescription just as you might for a horse in need of some less-than-contest-quality ?purdy?.. butit?s to see how well you can do something that we don?t see every day.
I don?t know about you, but it?s fairly rare around these parts to have to glue on, rivet, saw, weld, or otherwise affix a toe extension, lateral support, etc at every stop in a given day.

yet they get the local vet referrals because their work is more effective,

My question is: : ?Than what?? More effective than?
Hey, you don?t have to tell me that a lot of guys lose their focus on what is good for the horse. But guys (and gals) that are seeking improvement in their careers through better shoeing techniques and information go to the best sources available to them. And they keep doing it for the duration of their careers.
I can (and do)

I can (and do)

I can (and do)

I can buy just about any kind of bar shoe

Who sells factory-made bar shoes with nail creases in them?

Just basic forge skills.

?like turning a toe bend, or heel checks, or caulks?things taught from a straight piece of steel?

I can

I can

You name it and I will tell you how it could be be made without hand forging it from scratch.

Hand building shoes is archaic and unecessary to be an effective, sound, the****utic shoer

Kissing my wife isn?t an absolutely necessary thing for a marriage to survive either, but if I want it to thrive and grow, I?d damn well better do it!

Why would a horse ever need a such a thing if he were properly balanced medial laterally (internally), aligned in the coffin joint, and breaking over correctly in the hind feet, thereby comfortable in his whole hind end? I see no practical use for such a bizzare (and I think those kinds of shoes are bizzare) shoe with the better knowledge of hoof biomechanics are available today.

How about the rare horse that?s still used on the cobblestones of say? Mackinac Island or some other place. The roadster was built and designed to effect an even wear during use that protected nail holes and nails from undue wear. The toe is thicker than the rest of the shoe and the caulks are there to provide traction on a slick surface, compromised with the gravel roads that often accompanied a days work in town.

But it is also one of many which are based on a misunderstanding of what a horse needs for a sound foot and body. I won't use trailers anymore either because they strain the hocks terribly.

Sometimes it?s a choice.. ?do I strain the hocks or allow this poorly conformed (and probably never should have been bred into existence) to continue to interfere?? Contrary to what is common knowledge, the well conformed horse is not so common. I don?t know when the last time was that I used a trailer either, but I have a few with extended heels on them. Some folks call that a double trailer.

Let?s face it. Shoeing horses isn?t exactly 21st Century rocket science. You bet there have been a lot of technological advances in the tools we have at our disposal.
But the questions presented were about a new guy building a business, the expectations of income and partnering with someone.
It wasn?t about ?what can you do??
My suggestions to become familiar with shoe building to the point that he?s proficient in all phases, to charge accordingly? to find someone with excellent skills ? I thought? extended beyond the forge.
It makes no never mind to me whether anyone has the CJF behind their name.
It does bother me that there are some out there that think just because a guy?s willing to try and understand what it takes to do these things by hand that they are not forward thinking in their businesses.
Details attended help ensure success.
And just because the ?current? trend states so doesn?t make it so.

?The intensity of your faith does not validate your belief?.
It has to be provable.
And? it helps if your name isn?t attached to the patent when your trying to sell it.
It?s all about credibility.

One more thing.. speaking of archaic.
Fads that come and go about every hundred years or so... 1869... 1969...(comes to mind) only makes me wish the internet wasn't so popular right now because the marketing tools employed by some who feed on a gullible public wouldn't be so prevalent (I'd be in between fad cycles).
But.. that's one of the things that make this a great country.

[calshoer]

Well Scott ,I don't think I really got much away from the original post. It was was you who advised that a farrier is neither good or knowledgeable if he/she can not build from scratch. I was pointing out otherwise so the prospective farrier can know it is not necessary to work their butts off to learn to handmake all types of shoes to be an effective farrier.
With the basics (yes toe turns, making heels ,creasing and hole punching, tapping and all that, but nonetheless just BASIC skills), and a welder, they will be able to make any modification they may come across in the field. AS long as they thoroughly understand the science of the foot.
What I see too often is a lot of 'handmade' farriers today concentrate more on the blacksmithing and not nearly enough on the science of the hoof and how it WORKS.Therefore they fail to recognize the subtle but detrimental changes that are happening in the hoof before it is too late.

As for the relative beginners I know of who are getting the vet referrals, it is because they are making more horses sound than the previous, more experienced farriers. And they are not hand forging shoes to do it either. So who wins? The horses. These farriers are coming out of more progressive schools who are teaching your so called "fad" science . (which have been around now since the early 1990's.... How long does it have to be before it is no longer a fad? Heart bars were a 'fad' before you began shoeing.

As for using the shoes you describe on cobblestones, how many of those horses are totally sound in the hind end ,with their toes wedged up, their hind feet twisted outward from the lateral calks and an overall thick shoe preventign frog support ? Few I would think. I have watched horses shod very similarly pulling carriages in New Orleans and cringed watching them move. It was Pitiful. And inhumane.
BTW you seem to suggest that I do not have the same definition of " basic forge skills"...I learned form bar stock originally 22 years ago and and just quickly felt there was no need for that much hammering with the assortment of good factory shoes out there. Even back then. I certainly can make a basic plain stamp shoe if I HAD to. I modified a huge set of kerkharts the other day, six weeks from when I had last seen this horse. He has really odd shaped feet so the shoes needed a lot of changing. I, (lets see...hmmm, basic forge skills....) punched extra nail holes for E6 nails in between the other holes, broadened and rolled the toe, straightened the branches to the more boxy shape of his feet, and re-turned the heels . And the shoes fit the horse the next day. And the nails fit.
Those are basic skills I learned by the second week of school 22 years ago, and (the whole POINT of this discussion),
this prospective farrier will learn as well ,provided he goes to a decent school.

That is the kind of basic forging skills a good knowledgeable farrier needs. "Knowledgeable" is indeed the keyword here. All the 'high level' forging skills io the world won't make a good farrier in MY book if they don't understand the biomechanics of the foot itself. The farrier is a basically a foot doctor. And he better learn the medicine. That science he won't get enough of in any school. He will have to educate himsef in a dedicated manner after he gets out.

And BTW they do make factory creased egg bars. I just put a set on a DSLD horse the other day, modified the shape to fit in the forge, and added frog support via a hard plate under the shoe. How much faster was that from making egg bars ,(or an egg bar.heart bar ) from scratch? About a half hour or more . Thirty bucks of time saved and less work. Smarter not harder, you said it. Patty
Patty

[Jason Maki]

Patty,
This whole trade is about expanding knowledge; of the hoof, of the horse, of your self , forging. etc. My teacher( a former Gold Team member) pounded into my head "learn the foot, trim it right and the horse will stay sound!" He was right He can forge all kinds of artistic horshoes, but he does'nt. He did,however, teach me good basic forging skills are all that is needed to make the most complex shoe-nail fit, nail pitch, nail placement, precise fit, steel exaclty where it is needed-efficiently.
It is easier for me to forge a shoe than to rework the shapeless, always to big or two small shoes that are sold. My profit margin is far greater when I do not buy kegshoes. We need to learn ALL of this trade totally, not just enough to get by.
Jason

[calshoer]

It find it hard to believe your profit margin is really better when you consider the time to measure the bar stock,cut it, heat it to even begin to turn the toe bend, finish the heels, forepunch and pritchell at least six holes, box the thing, and then final fit it and make adjustments before you nail it on ..How much it s your time worth? More than the materials I am sure. .
A keg shoe farrier with just basic shaoping and forging skills can get a set of good quality keg shoes (ones with front or hind patterns to begin with like kerkharts or St croix eventers ) heat enough to make those minor shape adjustments, or even rework the whole shape and be ready to nail to the trimmed foot before you are ready for the final fit. Time is money and there is no reason a keg shoe can't be properly fitted correctly to just about any foot if you begin with the correct type of shoe.
BTW I do not "just get by" with using keg shoes and store bought modern matetrials ,I treat a whole lot of lameness, much of it serious, most succesfully,and without hand forging any shoes. I do the same things mechanially to the feet with a lot less effort or time than banging iron.
That is where farriery should be going now, rather than insisting on sticking to acrchaic treatment shoes that often do not accurately address the root of modern hoof problems. . And that is my point to prospective farriers. That adage of 'Just trim them right' is not exactly correct ,what with an epidemic of modern horses lacking internal cartilage support structures and negative plane coffin bones, and especially new information about what causes navicular disease and how to prevent it, etc. Being able to forge complicated fancy sdevices isn't the answer anymore, and in fact never really WAS...it was just the best thing there was but now there is better materials available to address the problems , with more to come. And New medical information to change the approach toa lot of lameness treatment.
Some of you guys are too young to remember (I know I am nearly old enough to be a mother to a few of you) when there was no eqiuilox, or equipack, or frog support pads, or glue on shoes, or plastic shoes worth a darn, or impression material, or ready made egg bars, or heart bars. And almost no factory aluminum shoes other than race plates. No full roller motion shoes for ringbone like those nifty italian ones they have now, and so on. I DO remember how it was back then only 22 years ago , so you HAD to be able to forge special shoes in soecial situations. No one had any better and that is what they had been doing for hundreds of years.My point is simply that there is NO NEED anymore for that level of forging. basic things yes, like turning metal, punching holes and so on, but not creative , journeyman level blacksmithing. .
Where the need lies is in learning the newest SCIENCE. That brings up an example...How many of you noticed that the last 'Profesional Farrier' magazine had absolutely NO articles about the foot or foot function, or "how to" on treating any lameness in the last issue. NOT ONE. Just about the entire magazine was devoted to forging or contests,, with a few business and human interest articles.
NOT ONE article on the science of the equine foot.

What good does it do if a farrier can make handmade heart bars with contest winning handmade creases and perfectly boxed heels if the package he built does not truly address the cause the foot problem becausee he doesnl't truly understand the root cause of thagt heel pain? Such as why the frog got so puny and thin, or setting an improper breakover point relative to the tip of P3 ,(or not knowing why that is SO important), or not recognizing the significance of those bent bars ,or what the dip in the hairline at he toe is telling him ,and so on. .Now don't get me wrong, many terrific handmade farriers DO get all those things , but many more do not even though they can forge those very same shoes wit hthe same accuracy.
On the other hand, let's say the keg shoe guy DOES understand what all those things mean ,thereby recognizes the root cause of the foot pain ,and addresses it accurately using all store bought materials.He is the one who then comes out on top, and starts to get the vet refferrals over the other guy. Who cares if he didn't hand build the shoe if his keg shoe was easily modified with broadened rolled toe and he didn't use a heart bar but instead just used a wedge pad with riveted on frog support that he made from s**** pad material and equipack underneath? Or the nailing is still a little amateurish because he is just a year out of school? The horse sure doesn't .
My advice to new farriers is get the *basic* forge skills down pat, then forget trying to prioritize journeyman level blacksmithing. .Go learn the SCIENCE and it will carry you far.
Shoing should no longer be an 'art'. It is a form of equine medicine. And too many farriers are still prioritizing the 'art' of blacksmithing rather than the science of the hoof.
Patty

[Jason Maki]

Patty,
In form, I can agree with most of your thinking. In function, or atleast application we vary...so be it. Oddly, In my bussiness of three hundred or so horses I have One that has Equipak, and three with a NB type, 3/8 x 3/4 concave with the toe knit shut because the foot is so collapsed in the palmer aspect that basic trimming would not heal the foot. In those cases that is the solution. Basic, fundamental skill and knowledge works.
I spent, between August 1 and August 15 $1500 in supplies and fuel. That was enough for me, Out came the stock again. Between September 1 and sEPTEMBER 15 I spent $450. My gross was within a hundred bucks of the same, while my net was better. A three heat fullered shoe cut to fit is about 15 minutes a pair, made for the foot, exactly as I want it. A concave is about 10, and a plain stamp is the same. Finsih with a grinder. I budget an hour and 30 minutes for four new, and can reset a horse, without hurrying in about thirty to thirty five minutes. I do five to seven horses a day. When I use keg shoes, they are the Delta WS, but have you ever seen a "O" front foot or a box as a hind? I used them as blanks and converted either front or hind shoes into the foot according to the inches of steel each shoe was sized at;ie an ought "hind" is 13 1/2 inches while an ought "front" is 13 3/4 inches.
I do not like being painted as uneducated and backwards because I prefer and have spent years learning to read, trim and then forge the appropriate appliance in an efficient time frame. We should not be in oppostion, as both skills, trimming and forging, are not mutually exclusive, but are neccasary for the success of the other. This job takes dedication in all aspects.
Jason

[Red Amor]

Well Airbourne 137
As you can see there are many farrieres that have and shear great passon for their belovered trade and rightfully so

It is a hard slog , and no game , horses and the sometimes fickel people that own them are great levelers of men /woman
you will need to know and love horses and you will need to know and try to lthe same your fellow man /woman
your people skills will be as great a prise to you as your farriery skills

Knowlage is not gained through an open mouth

keep your eyes and ears open and dont get into gossip

respect is something you comand not demand , your earn it by giveing it , showing it to everyone and thing , man or beast
humility , as just when you think your as flash as a rat with a gold tooth and a snidly whiplash muctarshe , and crowing like a bamtam rooster something will bring your crashing down to earth


you will become a confidant to many , some folks just need someone to lissen to them
all need someone they can trust keep it to yourself , it can be a burden or a priverlage its up to you
as a farrier you have a responsibillity for the safety of all in the shoeing area at your command
the owner their kids anyone that doesnt know any better the horse and of cause yourself, this is true wheather you believe it or not
we ofen have to protect people from themselves

I have made every mistake in the book I recon , probably invented some but the biggest one was not forgiveing myself for doing so ,your only human , but dont use this as an excuse and be flippent about it
Learn from your mistakes , learn to look for them and not let them happen
work hard to be good at what you do and who you are and make those that have helped you along the way proud that they did so

good luck fly boy ( no insult intended just a play on you pen name is all ) just remember to keep your feet on the ground and your head out of the clouds and youll be right
good luck mate

[calshoer]

Jason I never intended to imply that you personally were either uneducated or backward and sorry if anything came acros that way. It was Scott specifically who clearly stated that farriers were neither "good or knowledgeable" (His own words) if they could not hand make shoes on a "CJF level", hence the whole discusion. As for your own net profit handmaking vs keg, you are a lot faster making them than a lot of farriers I know who handmake. (Good for you that IS the kind of forge skill I respect). Patty

[shoesofiron]

It was Scott specifically who clearly stated that farriers were neither "good or knowledgeable" (His own words) if they could not hand make shoes on a "CJF level", hence the whole discusion. Patty

Ummm... that's not what I said.

I said that IN MY OPINION, you wouldn't call a guy a plumber if he couldn't cut and thread pipe from scratch, or a carpenter if he couldn't read a plan, measure, cut and nail a board to fit properly (At least I don't know of anywhere that they'd get hired for a job fitting that description).
So I drew the correlation to farriers who don't even have the basic forging skills to be able to build a shoe if the job called for it.
So the skill (again in my opinion) is not archaic. It is needed in this trade, or at least it should be.
How many times in a day does a guy need to be able to build a shoe? Not many. But they are out there.
Maybe I should take a class on PVC glueing to help my shoeing skills?
All I was trying to get through to this guy about "Any advice on starting out?" was that being able to build shoes would benefit him, to pursue excellence in all aspects of the trade and the shortcuts would come in time.


What good does it do if a farrier can make handmade heart bars with contest winning handmade creases and perfectly boxed heels if the package he built does not truly address the cause the foot problem becausee he doesnl't truly understand the root cause of thagt heel pain? Such as why the frog got so puny and thin, or setting an improper breakover point relative to the tip of P3 ,(or not knowing why that is SO important), or not recognizing the significance of those bent bars ,or what the dip in the hairline at he toe is telling him ,and so on. .Now don't get me wrong, many terrific handmade farriers DO get all those things , but many more do not even though they can forge those very same shoes wit hthe same accuracy

Okay, let's examine that for a minute. I would have to agree with you that it does no good to be able to build a pretty shoe if it doesn't work. So what?
You're saying that there is too much emphasis on forging and not enough on science.
But you know what? the kids (I can use that term too) coming out of these schools today have neither forging skills nor science. Oh they have a basic understanding but that's all. There are very, very few schools out there today that emphasize the need to associate with a learned farrier to become what it is this trade needs and that's proficiency in both.
They're coming out of schools full of themselves and the hope that all they have to do is undercut the next guy, find a way to do it cheaper and their books will be full in a matter of weeks or months.
They are not instilled with the price of ethics or the value an experienced mentor can bring them.
I see it around here every year. They "go to shoeing school", come back, advertise "low rates" and "top quality", offer multi-horse discounts at fees that are below most seasoned farriers costs.
Of course, 90% of them are gone before the snow flies but the results still ligner in the minds of many horse owners that "it shouldn't cost that much to shoe a horse" so the value of a decent, seasoned farrier is constantly being eroded by the values taught in these schools and one of the most important aspects of horsemanry is being standardized by unskilled, poorly trained iron hangers that couldn't build a shoe if their life depended on it.
And you're right, it's the horse that suffers for it.
But the remaining ten per cent that try and stick it out quickly abandon most forging and opt instead for volume, merely closing up a keg, or opening up a heel, slap it on, rasp off the reamining wall and call it even, move on to the next client that sees a cheap fix for a problem that would benefit from someone more qualified and knowledgeable.
So along with forging and science, we need to be better educators of the public because the vast majority of them owning horses today couldn't tell a good shoe job from a ****-**, **** and I don't know HOW many times I've shown up at a barn, fired up the forge and had them ask me, "what's that?!"

One more thing while I'm on a roll.
Something you also didn't see in Professional Farrier magazine:
You didn't see any so-called techniques that could possibly harm a horse like putting spikes on a heel to be driven into the hoof capsul to prevent shoe pulling. You didn't see weirdo-fringe tactics for shoeing a hundred horses a week. You didn't see fads represented as science promoted by manufacturers of the fad.
For my money, I think if we can support this new magazine, it will more accurately reflect the true science of farriery over the long haul than the Journal, who (again) in my opinion , sold out ethics in favor of the almighty dollar. Let's keep raising the bar instead of lowering it.

[Gary_Miller]

Ok you guys.
I have been following this topic with great intrest as I to am looking into comming into this field.
But first a little about my back ground. I recently retired from the USAF after 21 yrs and have a back ground in metal fabrication doing anything with steel from 28 gauge sheetmetal to 2" plate steel.

I have an intrest in learning how to do forge work as I really enjoy seeing things come to shape as you pound them out and manipulate the hot steel. And personal want to learn this lost art of blacksmithing.

But, I have some comments and question about this subject.

First of all I don't see the big deal in making shoes from skratch or using a weilder to modify factory shoes idf the end result is the same. I'm sure that some of you are really good at the forge and can make a shoe very quick, and I think this is great. But given a pattern or a sketch, or just my shelf knowing what needs done I can make anything you can using a arc weilder and torch that will so the same job and probably a whole lot quicker. So I don.t see the big deal placed by some in forge work. SO PLEASE EXPLAN?

Also, I see alot of complants of others under cutting the cost of others. I don't see whats wrong with charging less than others if your cost allow it. In any busness you have overhead and other costs. Some peoples overhead may be higher than others do to the quality of equipment and materials used, type of vehical driven, distance required to travel, as well as desired wages earned. It all called the cost of busness. personaly I would rather charge my customers the least I can and have a large customer base that keeps me busy. Than charge large exoparant fees that cause my customers to keep looking around for lower fees. SO WHAT DO YOU THINK WHAT IS A FAR CHARGE TO SHOE A HORSE THAT DOES NOT REQUIRE ANY SPEACIAL REQUIREMENTS? (I.E plan old backyard pleasure horse.)

Gary

[Gary Hill]

Airborne, I agree with Red Amor and the others. When I went to school in '78, we had classroom for 3 hrs then the rest of the day pounding out shoes to develop our skills and our eyes. When a horse came in we either took turns working or watching. What Patty said about the availablity of all the new shoes has made our lives easier and our careers as farriers longer. This profession has changed so much in just the passed 26yrs that I've been shoeing, I can only imagine what the next 20 so yrs has in store for all of us. Starting out when I did ,you were lucky if another farrier even spoke to you, because they were afraid you were going to steal their clients. And you were really looked down on if you shod cold. Now I used to carry a coal forge on my truck and every shoe on every horse was worked hot. Now days with a propane forge and the selection of shoes ,they still get worked hot on the first shapeing and usually set hot but to be honest not all. On a 98 degree day with the heat index over 105, I let the forge stay cool, unless I really need it. To get to your point, this is a business and if you treat it and your clients with respect, you will get it in return! If they don't let someone else put up with them. Read and watch other farriers and ask questions! Now days most farriers WILL let you look on without the fear of you learning from them. Go to clinics and buddy up with other farriers for alittle forge work practice, it goes along way with knocking down walls that farriers build around themselves. Cook outs with a cold one after practice is good for the spirit also! Best of Luck, it ain't supposed to be easy because good farriers DO make it look easy! Good Luck! Gary

[Dave Purves]

The scottish hind preventer was sort of a joke Patty, but you did say you could make anything. Anyway, I got out of school and went right to nailing on the cheapest shoe I could find. I didn't care about width, length or weight. Support to me was getting the heels pretty much covered. Shaping a shoe was not an option as it took way to much time to do it properly, I would open or close and nail it up. Even shoeing my own horses I would get terribly frustrated trying to properly shape a shoe. Then I began working with a local farrier that happened to be a CJF. He had me in the fire all the time, and by learning to make a hand made shoe I learned how to shape a keg shoe. I don't put on alot of handmade shoes, but when I need to I can. I have a horse that is short backed and long legged. Terrible TB feet typical thin soles and shelly hoofwall. Now other than preach to the lady that owns him and I myself start managing the surroundings and feed that this horse gets my option is to keep shoes on. He is 15.2 and a 00 Kerchart is too big, a 000 is too small. I tried the 00 pulled them off in less than an hour. Not to mention that the nail holes didn't line up well cause he has thin hoof walls. Now how do I get a nice rather wide web shoe on this horse to support his already failing hoofwall and keep a shoe on. I hand made the shoe out of 5/16x3/4, I put the nail holes where I want them so they do the best job while doing little damage and low and behold the shoes stayed on. Now I could've cut the heels off and punched brand new nail holes in a keg shoe but that would really only look like ****. He has the exact size peice of steel that he needs with nail holes where they work. Not everyone needs to make handmade shoes, but the sooner you learn how to make handmades the sooner you understand how to manipulate steel the sooner you can properly shape a shoe. I don't know if you meant to but you imply that people that enjoy forging somehow are ignorant of modern scientific breakthroughs in farriery and that is offensive. It is simply another tool in your box. You like to carry around welders and grinders and 1000 different types and sizes of shoes then go ahead, I carry what I need and an assortment of different sized steel and aluminum and get by just fine with a much lower overhead than you scientists. I don't care if you use handmades, I think you should have the ability, couple that with the science and you have a well rounded well balanced tradesman or woman. If you want to have $5000 worth of equipment in your truck so you can work smarter that's fine, but don't insinuate that folks like Scott, and Jason and myself are somehow less knowledgable cause we make shoes.
Dave

[Jason Maki]

;) Life is a funny game: After telling how I had not been using keggers, I used three pair today as I ended up with two more horses that I did not have time to do. I am not a great forgeman, Patty. I do not know how to build most "contest" shoes. I have built a ton(probobly literaly) of horseshoes some I just pitched because they were ******* devices. I am a little obsessive and spent a lot of hours on perfecting little steps. The result is efficiency in building simple horseshoes, or making a steel donut with holes poked in it look like a horses foot. I will agree that the trim is the biggest part, but forging , in my opinion, should be stressed and encouraged to rookies as well.
The exchange of ideas and opinions makes us all think, which is a good thing. I hope we have not confused the original poster to much. If he goes to school, he will be confused for a couple of years( God knows I was!) :D

[danverschild]

Ok you guys.
...I don't see the big deal in making shoes from skratch or using a weilder to modify factory shoes idf the end result is the same. I'm sure that some of you are really good at the forge and can make a shoe very quick, and I think this is great. But given a pattern or a sketch, or just my shelf knowing what needs done I can make anything you can using a arc weilder and torch that will so the same job and probably a whole lot quicker. So I don.t see the big deal placed by some in forge work. SO PLEASE EXPLAN?
Gary

Hi Gary,

I kinda fall in the middle on this. Although I started in an era when you had to make your own shoes most of the time, I've been pleased to see the advancements in the marketplace and the availability of good keg shoes, so pleased that I spent a number of years making the arguments that Patty is making here, and I believe she makes a valid point. We can get so involved in the fire that we forget the horse. And--for some--it's an easy way to convince yourself that you've got a handle on this trade--forging is sequenced and there are constants that are much easier to find in the fire than in the foot.

Despite those beliefs, I have to agree with Dave, Scott, Jason, and others when they say that the fire will make you a better and more efficient farrier. It makes you visualize and internalize patterns that you're not going to get otherwise. People can talk about nail hole placement, location, and pitch all they want to, but when you make a shoe for a foot, you better get it in all the dimensions. I think Scott's analogy to carpentry is good.... I don't care if the guy building my house uses pre-fabricated trusses and puts them up with a nail gun, but if he's got the knowledge and skill base to do it the old way, I'm more comfortable that he's a well-rounded professional craftsman and not simply a technician.

In days of old, you didn't pull a ther-apeutic shoe out of a box and nail it on. There was an investment involved. You had to know about it and learn it and its use and application, and you had to build it before you could apply it. There was a whole learning process involved, which lent itself to application and well-rounded application. Now, if someone wants to nail on a heartbar shoe, they can buy it, apply it, and never have any understanding of it.

In any case, I use pre-fabricated shoes all the time; they're the mainstay of my work. But I don't have horses with pre-fabricated feet, and when it comes time to put steel on those feet, I'm a better farrier for being able to fire up my forge and make a shoe that's punched coarse or fine, pitched hard or up, shaped for a front or a hind, bar or open, etc. I could get around it by carrying inventory, but when you have two pair of shoes hanging on your racks that cost more than $100, and you start looking at what you would want to cover all the possibilities, that's more inventory than I ever want. And I could get around it by carrying a welder, but then I'd have to carry a generator or get a new group of clients with better electric... so I play in the fire and have fun developing skills that enhance my work.

[danverschild]

Where the need lies is in learning the newest SCIENCE. That brings up an example...How many of you noticed that the last 'Profesional Farrier' magazine had absolutely NO articles about the foot or foot function, or "how to" on treating any lameness in the last issue. NOT ONE. Just about the entire magazine was devoted to forging or contests,, with a few business and human interest articles.
NOT ONE article on the science of the equine foot.

Patty


Patty,

It's been months since I extended an invitation to you, asking for an article, and I apologize for not being more aggressive in my solicitations. I feel certain that our readership would welcome more articles of the sort you suggest. Unfortunately, critique is easier than creation, and--using your emphasis--NOT ONE of the people who has voiced discontent concerning the magazine's content has chosen to submit an article.

You and others on these forums (some of whom I have also solicited to no avail) have valuable insights that I would love to share with the Professional Farrier readership. Nevertheless, process comes before product, and the process remains that articles have to be written and submitted before they can be published.

[shoesofiron]

Also, I see alot of complants of others under cutting the cost of others. I don't see whats wrong with charging less than others if your cost allow it. In any busness you have overhead and other costs. Some peoples overhead may be higher than others do to the quality of equipment and materials used, type of vehical driven, distance required to travel, as well as desired wages earned. It all called the cost of busness. personaly I would rather charge my customers the least I can and have a large customer base that keeps me busy. Than charge large exoparant fees that cause my customers to keep looking around for lower fees. SO WHAT DO YOU THINK WHAT IS A FAR CHARGE TO SHOE A HORSE THAT DOES NOT REQUIRE ANY SPEACIAL REQUIREMENTS? (I.E plan old backyard pleasure horse.)

Gary

Well Gary, the thing is that there are other intangible items that most people who don't do this for a living or are new at it don't stop to figure in when they start out like say, truck replacement costs, or attending clinics, or insurance, or even a vacation here and there. And how about being able to hide a little away from each job so we have something to live on after our bodies start giving out?
In the AFJ of Nov. '02 they showed the average fee charged for 4 cold shoes was around 84 bucks.
My costs today are around 53 dollars to shoe a horse. Tell me how a guy is supposed to compete with kids who think (and the public perceives) it's ok to charge $50.
They don't have the experience or knowledge to know that in a few years they're going to have to replace that old rust bucket with 300,000 miles on it.
The truth of the matter is that due to the intense physical strain involved, it is almost impossible to overpay a farrier. If you don't believe that, just wait until you've picked yourself up off the floor after some dink saw a pink elephant or whatever, scattered and shattered your tools and tool box, ran out the barn, crinkled a fender on your truck, runs down the road like he was hit by a lightning bolt and the owner looks at you incredulously and has the nerve to ask you what the **** you did to him because "he's never acted like that before". And then *****es because you want $35 for the trim.
Sure, there can be a few bucks difference in what most guys charge but my point was directed at the ones whose life doesn't seem to require electricity or gasoline... they can't, because they sure aren't charging for it.

Oh and Danvers, I'm working on an article on tactfulness as we speak.
:D

[Gary_Miller]

Ok, I agree. You have all been really helpful in answering questions and explaining yoour point of veiw. I find it very informative to hear diffrent views and ideas. One thing I got from everyone was learning how to use the forge is as important in this trade as learning how to use a weilder was important to my last trade if you want to be a craftsman instead of a Technicin. I can see where this is important because as Danvers said there is no why you can afford to carry all the shoes you may possable need and even though a guy could use a portable weilder there are lots of things you still need to do that may not be possible with weilding equipment(duch as punching holes). I see where it would be more cost effective to have some bar stock on hand and the know how to manufature a shoe in the forge than have all the overhead in diffrent types of keg shoes. So I guess I better pay close attentioin to the forging process once I attend school.

Lots of talk abouot the science and learning it. ANY ADVISE ON A GOOD BOOK OR OTHER MATERIAL A GUY MAY READ TO LEARN THIS? I also realize some of this will come from talking to others but good resource material is always handy.

Scott your advice on cost and over head was very appreciated. Good sound knowledge and adivice. I will use it when figuring out what I should charge so as to make a living and not hurt others in the busness. I don't want to be a big box store just hanging iron.

Here so information you can use for your artical on tackfulness. WE use to say this in the military. A defintion of tack: "Tack is telling someone where to go with out him knowing it. But where he can wait to get there." Of course I use to tell people that if I wated to tell you of I wanted you to know it. Maybe thats way I was allways accused of not haveing any tack.

Thank you for you help.
Gary
(GSMiller)

oh ya, Is there any way a guy can get the Professional Farrier Magizine with out joining the AFA. Don't have the cash to join right now at the full rate and even though I currently in school it not Ferrior School so I don't think I'm eleagable for the student rate. PLEASE ADVISE.

[Bill Adams]

Hello Gary and Airborne,
I gather that you are both vetrens, so I must say thank you for your service to our country (and to all the others).

My points to consider for those who aspire to our profession are:

Make sure the wound to your head is not infected.

Know that only about five percent of the graduates of horseshoeing schools are makeing a living as a Farrier five years later.

Spend time watching as many Farriers as posible, don't get in their way and buy them lunch.

Read Doug Buttler's book "Six figure Horseshoeing". Read the textbooks of the school you plan on attending before you get there.

Don't go to a school that dosen't belive in "all that new stuff", for the same reason you wouldn't go to a knee surgon with that attitude.

If I could do it over again, after school I would move to an area I didn't want to live. Get a night job, work for free (apprentice) with the best Farriers in the area, join the AFA and local groups, go to every clinic, enter every contest, get AFA certified, run the bisiness for a couple of years then......

Move to where you want to live as the Graduated, Certifided, Aprenticed under so and so, Expereanced, Contest Winning, BigTime, GoodLookin', Just moved in from somewere, Knows how to unload their truck like thay've done it before, New Farrier.

This way your broken feet (and the feet of the horses in the old area) will have healed. You won't have stories being told about you. You'll have learned maybe from what end of a horse the poop comes and maybe what sise shoe it should wear.

It's really simple after you've shod several thousand horses. Kind of.
Please note that I did not use the term "horseshoer" and that I used a capital "f" for the word Farrier.

As to the above discusion of Scott, Patty, Red, Dan, and Jason. Please let me say, as a way to bring peace and harmony to our comunity, that one should ALLWAYS shoe hot.

My $0.02
Bill

[Phil Armitage]

Hi Jason and Gary

Here is my advice for starting out. First off, I want to say the advice and dialoque that has taken place is great.

1. I believe the very first thing is to get familiar with horses, Anatomy and how they think and act.

2. Learn forging skills and how to work with metal, one of the best ways is to make hand made shoes.

Horsemen ship Skills (most important in my opinion) You can be the best smithy in world, but most Farriers get fired or worst yet injured because they lack good horsmenship skills. Today there is a tremendous amount of information available on how to be a good horse person. In my opinion Horsemen ship skills is the most important, without it, your unsafe and you and the horse are at a higher risk of injury or maybe death. 99% of the time when horses act up it is caused by people (the Farrier). The best way to learn the skills needed is to hang around good horse people and many horses. Clinics are good, riding lessons, cleaning stalls and grooming is a good way to learn about horses. Every horse is an individual and you need to know how to communicate with them and read them. It is almost impossible and very dangerous for a green person to work on or around horses especially holding there foot up while trimming them or nailing on a shoe. The more you understand horses the easier and safer it is.


It is difficult to teach someone how to be a Farrier. When I first started I had no idea of how difficult it would be just to use the tools and Trim a foot and shape shoes, I did a lot of smashing not shaping at first. Each part of the job needs to be taught and taught correctly and needs to be done in a manner that does not threaten or intimidate the student. So with that said, I believe it is important for a new Farrier to learn forging skills, it develops good basic techniques that helps you a lot. It is also very important to learn how to put your body and limbs in the correct positions. Because it helps you and the horse. Learning how to work at your Anvil making handmade shoes or just making a gait hook is a great way to learn how to shape shoes. By learning to do things right it will become enjoyable and when the Farrier feels good the horses behave better. So I cast my vote with the handmade shoe folks. This will also help you build your business, because you look competent and skilled. Horses and people look for signs of confidence and leadership.

I attended a clinic this weekend on Horse Training. At the Clinic a horse owner asked “what is the best type of bit to use?” The Clinician’s answer was that he preferred the least severe bit over a severe bit. However the least severe bit in the wrong hands can do more harm than a severe bit in skilled hands. "The most important thing is to learn the basics and develop skill".

Good luck, be safe and enjoy your journey