Lost my knowledge about laminitis....

[ajfarrier]

Good Day everyone.
This is my first post to this new forum.

My desire to get a proper answer to my brand new problem just got me here today, hoping to light out some matters to myself.

Ok, here´s the problem : I am involved in a big mess about shetland pony´s laminitis with my client. To make a long story short, The Vet no 1. diagnosed pony to have 8 mm rotation of P3 on both fronts but didn´t examine the pony´s joints, that were swollen and hot as a first symptom about two months ago. ( Client took the pony to equine clinic after I told her that mare is getting laminitis because of improper movement. Ponymare couldn´t bend her knees or hocks while moving around. )

Then my client wanted to send those x-rays to another equine clinic just to get another Vet´s opinion about them, because I couln´t see any rotation on them...

Today the Vet no 2. told my client that there is even more than 8 mm rotation of P3 and adviced her to put the ponymare down :(

No- one seems to be interested in that fact, that mare did have fever and swollen joints before she put he weight to her hind legs. We still think that the ponymare got somekind of virusinfection to her joints, New Forrest gelding of the same age ( 3 yrs ) got same sympthoms but was ok after 3 days. ( Vet said he got tha laminitis too, but he got only anti-inflammation and pain killer medication first two days...

So, does anyone of you have x-rays of normal foot and then x-rays of 8 mm rotation of P3? I would appreciate if I could see those differences with explanations.

Also if someone could tell me if that sounds pure laminitis to you?
I am desperate, thinking about quit shoeing. I think it´s dangerous to poor animals if I can´t read x-rays correctly anymore.
Have been shoing full-time just over 4 yrs. But have had success with laminitis before this...

Thank you for your time and sorry the long post.

Aj

[Jaye Perry]

Good Day everyone.
This is my first post to this new forum.

.........Also if someone could tell me if that sounds pure laminitis to you?

I am desperate, thinking about quit shoeing. I think it´s dangerous to poor animals if I can´t read x-rays correctly anymore.
Have been shoing full-time just over 4 yrs. But have had success with laminitis before this...

Aj

Laminitis can happen if the wind blows in the wrong direction on a full moon in August. In other words there is so many variables, causations and factors which can contribute to this problem ; specific answers can elude the best of us, farriers and vets alike.

This past June, Mr. Purves was helping me at the Lexington Hunt/Jump show. Since I hadn't re-newed my AFA membership we ventured over to the AFA office. After the Visa swipe and conversations with the office babes, Mr. Quinsey introduced himself.After the small talk he asked what i would like to see the AFA do in the future.
I told him that I would like to see the introduction of "Reading Basic X-Rays" into the AFA educational edict for farriers. He re-sounded that it was a "good idea. Even be incorporated in the Omaha convention."
This program would be beneficial to farriers like AJ here and others. Most young farriers do not have or have not had the opprotunity to read alot of x-rays. Most of the time when young or inexperienced farriers are presented with a case that is divergent from the normal most are lost in reading , understanding and shoe application(s).

Mr. Quinsey!!!! Here is a perfect example from AJ of what you, I and Purves talked about in the AFA office that day. :)

[ajfarrier]

Thanks for your answer Jaye,

I know there´s different variations of laminitis, but I have always thought that there will be a strong digital pulse, all weight will be shifted back end and animal will move just a little if at all with fronts reaching forward, under it´s neck. Also my usual cases have turned like jamming the hinds and hopping around with fronts while putting their weight just on hind legs. With stiffy tail pointing backwards.

Any of these symptoms weren´t in sight with this case. They appeared just a week ago, after pony had been swollen over a month. And I ment swollen all over her body, first two weeks her loin,flanks, neck and croup, breast and belly were swollen. And plus that her hocks, knees fetlocks and coronet areas were hot on all four feet.

About the x-ray you put along your post, is that really of 8 mm rotation?

Looks so much more rotated to me, and is nothing like the mare´s x-rays. The pony´s bones were in straight line, P1,P2 and P3 straight,
about 1 cm ( little less than ½ inches ) from tip of the P3 down to sole. Hoof wall was strecthed a little, but white line wasn´t wider than normal,yet.

About your idea to educate young farries for reading x-rays, it´s great idea.
I wish I could visit your country to get some more hands-on experience :)

Aj

[Jaye Perry]

I know there´s different variations of laminitis, but I have always thought that there will be a strong digital pulse, all weight will be shifted back end and animal will move just a little if at all with fronts reaching forward, under it´s neck. Also my usual cases have turned like jamming the hinds and hopping around with fronts while putting their weight just on hind legs. With stiffy tail pointing backwards.

In a lot of cases the digital pulse is a good indicator but not always. Have a Tennessee Walking horse that had no digital pulses, no laminitic prose in the front, but was lame on one hind. people just wanted a trim, the next week i go back because the TWH is really lame behind; both coffin bones were peeking through in the back feet. No effects in the fronts! :confused:


Any of these symptoms weren´t in sight with this case. They appeared just a week ago, after pony had been swollen over a month. And I ment swollen all over her body, first two weeks her loin,flanks, neck and croup, breast and belly were swollen. And plus that her hocks, knees fetlocks and coronet areas were hot on all four feet.

The symptoms were there. Just not clearly apparent. Virual infections, Tying-Up and some drug applications will cause laminitic episodes. These causations are different in their onsets; thus different symptoms.

About the x-ray you put along your post, is that really of 8 mm rotation?

No, just being sarcastic. Will post some that are close to what you want.

....., and is nothing like the mare´s x-rays. The pony´s bones were in straight line, P1,P2 and P3 straight,
about 1 cm ( little less than ½ inches ) from tip of the P3 down to sole. Hoof wall was strecthed a little, but white line wasn´t wider than normal,yet.

Pics of a pony with chronic laminitis, old hunter show pony, will be posted when I reduce the pixel size.

About your idea to educate young farries for reading x-rays, it´s great idea.
I wish I could visit your country to get some more hands-on experience :)
Aj

Farriers and Vets work together on a daily basis around the country and around the world. :( Alot of young farriers and some who have been practicing for 10 years can't interpet x-rays because there has been no basic education in doing so. When a farrier is presented with a discreptive set or view of a radiograph and doesn't have the basic knowledge it will sometimes cause a sense of inadequancy thus this feeling can cause one, like yourself to give up. In some circomstances this inadequate sense will cause one to become polemic and have animosity towards others. :mad:

[Rick Burten]

The problem with farriers reading and interpreting radiographs is that it is not part of our job description. That said, I agree, all farriers should have a basic understanding of what they are looking at and what it means.

It sounds to me, from the description, that this pony may be a sinker(tip of p3 is 1/2 inch above sole, hoof wall stretched(and if the hoof wall is stretched, then there is indeed seperation of the laminae), stance of the pony, etc.

This does not mean that the pony is ready for the long sleep.

And, we need more information(and pictures if possible) to best help you with this problem.

If you do not know about The Styrofoam Protocol, then please go to www.hopeforsoundness.com and read in the downloads or tutorial section about this quick and easy approach to help deal with laminitis. There is also an excellent trimming tutorial that you can download, and you should consider buying the videos that are available, too.

One thing for sure, DO NOT even consider quitting the profession because of something like this. You have not been at it long enough to have done much more than scratch the surface of the knowledge and information that is out there. You are still a young "wet behind the ears"(and I say that meaning no disrespect) farrier who because of your concern and desire to learn, possess two of the most important ingredients for success in this business.

The best of us out there have suffered setbacks and failures. Learn from those and you will be the better for it. And you will add to the profession when you are able to help the next young farrier that gets in a jam and has the good sense to look for/ask for help.

Should ever find the time to visit us, I'm sure there will be many doors open to/for you.

Keep us informed of how this is going and let us know if there is anything else we can do to help.

[Jaye Perry]

The problem with farriers reading and interpreting radiographs is that it is not part of our job description. That said, I agree, all farriers should have a basic understanding of what they are looking at and what it means.

There is no color, just black,blue and white.

Mr. Buerton, where did you get the job description for Farriers? How can one who applies shoes to the equss have a job in which it is not in there job description to read and interpet radiographs?
If one who does this job cannot read and interpet radiographs, how is one suppose to do their job properly? Properly, in the sense of being a well rounded professional.




If you do not know about The Styrofoam Protocol, then please go to www.hopeforsoundness.com and read in the downloads or tutorial section about this quick and easy approach to help deal with laminitis. There is also an excellent trimming tutorial that you can download, and you should consider buying the videos that are available, too.


Rick, help me please to understand why you made this refferal.(?) The man admits a definite lack of experience in (Looking AT) reading x-rays with decrepencies. Trimming protocals in laminitic situations calls for "Reading and Interpeting" x-rays"(?)


I am not in the market for a ****ing parlay, I am concerned about what and where you believe a farrier's job description starts and stops. I understand we cannot give a diagnosis, but we,as well rounded and educated professionals, can give an informed opinion(s)/observation(s) of a situation.

[ajfarrier]

Thanks again Jaye and Rick,

I found out now that lamintis really could be blamed on everything strange happening on a equine´s life, seems to me it´s like a eggbar shoe that should be cure for everything ;)

I was educated to read basic x-rays at the horseshoeing school at CA. Quess I just lost it all suddenly...
I know I have so much more to learn, but am very confused to realize that something that did work earlier do not work anymore...

I tried to communicate about this with the Vet, but she just asked me to put on reverse shoes to the pony. Also I thought it might be a sinker, but no, Vet said she just have some rotation. The extensor process was 9 mm away ( downwards ) from the hairline, is that normal?

And yes, I am familiar with the Styrofoam pads and EDSS, even have "fixed" on draft two years ago with this method, gelding had a 15 to 18 mm rotation on both P3 in front and is now sound to walk and rideable. ( I am not praising here myself, just trying to tell you that I have a little knowledge about x-rays, or I thought I did... )

By the way, it really gives me some relief to know that you are here and will try to help me out with this, thank you :)

I put these Styrofoams on for almost every laminitis cases just to givin relief and getting some more time to get proper shoes. So the ponymare do have them on at the moment.

But how can I put on anything no longer, if I can´t be sure to know what to do, and what to fix on the foot? I´m whining here, sorry about that. Just feeling a fool of myself. I have started to think if everything I do will cause more pain to animal, even if they clearly looks more happier after my visit.
Sometimes they don´t, but usually I know what went wrong, before I leave the place.

But maybe I won´t quit shoing yet, just have to be more carefully with x-rays. I have already managed to teach my areas Vets to put dorsal wire and pin on the hoof before taking x-rays, among the Vets, no-one else do not need those marks with reverse shoeing :/

I can´t get the x-rays on my hands again until saturday, when I suppose to go and put on a heart bar shoes on that mare. I also can take some photos but have to learn first how to add them here :)

Is the heart bar shoe correct one or do you have any suggestions?


Now, thaks again and I will be back to asking more questions.

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=Jaye Perry].

Mr. Buerton, where did you get the job description for Farriers?

Not sure who "Mr. Buerton" is, but I'll respond anyway.

I don't know that I got the job description anywhere in particular. Reading and interpreting radiographs is the domain of the Veterinarian, or potentially of a farrier who has gone through enough training to be good at it. And most farriers aren't.

>How can one who applies shoes to the equss have a job in which it is not in there job description to read and interpet radiographs?

Easy, where does it say that it is? Where does one get that knowledge? Certainly not in shoeing school. Usually not from a mentor . So where? especially if the farrier is not in a veterinary practice.

> If one who does this job cannot read and interpet radiographs, how is one suppose to do their job properly?

By working in concert with qualified equine veterinarians. They shoot the film. They develop the film. They make the diagnosis. Together, we plan a course of action. Absent specific class work in the field of radiology, few farriers have the ability to correctly read anything but the most basic and obvious conditions on radiographs. Most of us have learned what we know about reading radiographs by being with the vet and just saying "Hey Doc, wanna show me that again" or words to that effect.

I would venture a guess that many of the farriers who frequent this site are not reading those most excellent films that you post for us, very well or very accurately.

Some of us have been fortunate enough to have been around long enough and worked with top notch veterinarians long enough to have some of their expertise rub off.

But that still doesn't change the fact that I call the vet and whenever possible meet with the vet when it comes to understanding correctly what the radiograph is saying.

>Properly, in the sense of being a well rounded professional.

If you are asking do I think that a farrier should be familiar with the technique, then my answer is yes. But again, where does one go to get that particular education? And, at what stage of one's career?

If you are asking if I think that it is essential, then my answer is no. Many if not most farriers will go an entire career without having to read radiographs, or will have the opportunity so infrequently that they never develop a keen ability to do so.

> Rick, help me please to understand why you made this refferal.(?) The man admits a definite lack of experience in (Looking AT) reading x-rays with decrepencies. Trimming protocals in laminitic situations calls for "Reading and Interpeting" x-rays"(?)

Got to rely on the expertise of the vets in that case, and, laminitic or not, the trimming protocol I suggested is one that will stand him in good stead whether or not he can read radiographs. More important is his ability to correctly read the feet infront of him. the Styrofoam Protocol is one that he can apply and it will only benefit , never hurt the horse, regardless of whether pathology is present or not.

And while it may be true that "trimming protocols in laminitic situations call for "reading and interpreting x-rays", often, in the field, the farrier is not afforded that luxury. S/he must deal with the situation at hand and then it is going to be her/his experience with feet that is going to be the determining factor.

> I am not in the market for a ****ing parlay,

me either!

>I am concerned about what and where you believe a farrier's job description starts and stops.

For me, it stops when I think I am about to cross the line into veterinary medicine.

> I understand we cannot give a diagnosis, but we,as well rounded and educated professionals, can give an informed opinion(s)/observation(s) of a situation

An opinion/observation( informed or otherwise) on our part may be misconstrued as diagnosis/prognosis by others. I prefer not to put myself in that situation. Which is why when the vet and I look at rads, I'll keep saying, "Show me that again, Doc..."etc. Doesn't mean that I have not been able to read that film, but I tend to keep my observations/opinions to myself(Iknow, I know, that is really hard to believe, but it is true, none the less :o )

[Ronald Aalders]

I hate to butt in I always hate to butt in but you get to love what you hate in the end, or so I'm told :rolleyes:

Anyway I'm with Jaye here. I cannot believe that anyone can claim reading and understanding X rays of the equine digit is just for vets. Without a thorough knowledge of anatomy, one should even not ever shoe a horse. How in the world is anyone going to learn how to tell all structures in a horses foot without a thorough experience in reading X rays?

I can't believe what I'm reading here.

BTW what happened to the super moderator status Mr. Burten, or did I miss out on something again. Does this also imply you can not change that ****** rule embedded somewhere in your server that pics can only be 280 x 620 in size and not 620 x 280, which takes up exactly the same amount of your precious server space? If I can't post a pic up correctly but I can post it rotated, what's the difference? Other then readers getting their necks sore that is............


Ronald Aalders

[ajfarrier]

Hi again,
are we having an argument here :)

Just wanted to point out here, I have knowledgement about anatomy and shoeing the basics, like corrective shoeing and am familiar with etc. NB shoeing. Keep on updating my knowledge via internet ( this forum is excellent place )
and have been around horses over 16 yrs. Just have been full-time farrier about 4,5 yrs. I learn to shoe over 15 yrs ago, just the basic shoeing ,then. In horseshoing school in CA, USA we went through also the basics about shoeing lame horses.
I had a very excellent instructor and got a lot to think about. And more I learned the more less I knew :) But always could have count on his advices...

Sometimes my feelings are that maybe I know more than I should here, and kind of standing a vet´s toes while trying to help out animals here.
Sometimes feels like if the pony is bleeding from it flank and blood spouts out, the Vet here is causing a laminitis. Just because it´s a pony...
And when care is not giving properly, owners do have to put animal down when everything collapsed at the end... I can´t help equine without the help from the Vet, not by myself...

Might be a paranoia way of thinking but I know the Vets are also human and also they do mistakes sometimes, and usually it´s the Farrier that retreat...

Aj

[Mike Ferrara]

Since when do we use a linear measurement like "mm" rather than an angular measurement like degrees or radians to describe rotation (which is by definition angular)?

The problem with us reading the radiographs is that we're not radiolologists. Of course my guess is that the vet isn't either. The problem with us not reading them is the trouble we sometimes have getting information from the vet. I recently made a call to a clinic about a horse they shod that I was asked to reset. In about 10 minutes on the phone the extent of the information I got was that the mare has "all kinds of issues". And yes those were the vets exact words. The phone time was mostly accounted for by me trying to rephrase my questions in order to get a meaningful answer. I finally started asking specific questions about the shoeing prescription. To those she just answered that she didn't have it in her notes. I should have asked a lawyer to call her for me. Maybe a skilled trial lawyer could get something out of her. It did help me make one decision though. I'm going to start charging at least as much for time spent talking to vets as I do for time under a horse.

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=Ronald Aalders]>Anyway I'm with Jaye here. I cannot believe that anyone can claim reading and understanding X rays of the equine digit is just for vets.

Not quite what I said Ron. I said its not part of our job description. If it is, please direct me to where it says that. Nor did I say understanding/reading films was just for vets.


Hey, I know. Lets do a survey of farriers and farrier schools in North America. We'll ask how many were taught to correctly read and interpret radiiographs while at school, and we'll ask the schools how many actually offer radiograph reading and interpretation as a part of their curriculum and how much time is spent developing the student's skill at this task. And lets take it one step further. Lets ask how many feel that reading and interpreting radiographs is part of their job description.

What you or Jaye or I or anyone else chooses to do to further our own personal goals or needs is not germane here. The only thing that is germane, is the question of whether or not skill and expertise at reading and interpreting radiographs is a part of the job description for farriers.

In an effort to answer the question of whether or not the ability and skill to read radiographs is part of the farrier job description, I first referred back to what many/most consider the "farrier's bible", Dr. Doug Butler's "Principles of Horseshoeing II(I don't have a copy of his latest edition, so I had to make do with what I have). Nowhere in that book is the ability to read and intepret radiographs mentioned as part of the farrier's job description. further, only a brief paragraph is spent on explaining how to correctly read and interpret radiographs. Since Dr. Butler is considered one of the leading luminaries of our profession, what is one to think?

Next, I went to"Corrective farriery, a textbook of remedial horseshoeing, Vol1", edited by Simon Curtis,FWCF, HonAssocRCVS. While there is much discussion involving radiographs and and introduction to proper techniques, nowhere does it say that reading and interpreting radiographs is actually a part of the farrier's job description. I do however recommend this book to anyone who wants to, of their own volition, learn more about reading/interpreting radiographs. It is also important to note that this book has as its sub title "A textbook of remedial horseshoeing". I submit that many farriers do not participate or practice remedial horseshoeing and thus have no interest in furthering their education by learning about reading and/or interpreting radiographs.

>Without a thorough knowledge of anatomy, one should even not ever shoe a horse. How in the world is anyone going to learn how to tell all structures in a horses foot without a thorough experience in reading X rays?

Were that opinion a fact, then I'll bet that 3/4th of the farriers in North America would not be shoeing horses for a living. As to the question ("How in the world...") I suggest that the answer is the same way they always have. By reading, watching disections, or performing disections, or availing themselves of the other educational possibilities out there(Allie Hayes hoof models come to mind here). And, since radiographs are relatively useless when trying to view soft tissue, how are they going to help anyone learn how to "tell all structures in a horse's foot"?

>I can't believe what I'm reading here.

Why not?

>BTW what happened to the super moderator status Mr. Burten, or did I miss out on something again.

Yep, you missed out on something again. My appointment was, from the very beginning, only temporary. Baron was going to be away from the site for several months and asked me to fill in. He has, you have by now noted, returned, and so I have returned to my regular status on the forums.

> Does this also imply you can not change that ****** rule embedded somewhere in your server that pics can only be 280 x 620 in size and not 620 x 280, which takes up exactly the same amount of your precious server space? If I can't post a pic up correctly but I can post it rotated, what's the difference? Other then readers getting their necks sore that is............

I think you need to take that up with the site owner(Baron). Even in my temporary role as Super Moderator, I was not in a position to change the formatting of the site. Nor did I want to or , for that matter, know how to do so.


>Ronald Aalders

[ajfarrier]

Evening to all of you.

Mr.Perry , the 2nd x-ray you posted here, is clearly rotated to my eyes and looks nothing like the ponymare´s x-rays.

Mr.Burten, the strectcehd laminae was more like a " flare "at the toe and I assume it´s because the pony was having a stif stance because of the joint swellingness and pain of that, and mare was using that swinging-weight-from-one-foot-to-another- stance. She was not swingin back and forward like in laminitis.
I was able to trim her feet easily before she moved to laminitis-stance week ago.

Mr.Ferrara, here in Europe and at least in Finland the Vets are doing those rotation measurements in millimeters. I know it sound odd, I was so lost with that matter 4 yrs. ago, I was educated to read rotation as a degrees in USA.

I know I shouldn´t have my farrier education from USA because it is so different that what they teach here in Finland, but I was willing to learn more about lame horse shoeing and was hoping to being able to help horses with my knowledge, but, oh God, I was so wrong... It has just caused me more troubles while doing things different way that here is always been done.

That is the reason why I asked for your help out there, you propably see things more the same like I do...

AJ

[Maryann Kleynendorst]

>Without a thorough knowledge of anatomy, one should even not ever shoe a horse. How in the world is anyone going to learn how to tell all structures in a horses foot without a thorough experience in reading X rays?

Were that opinion a fact, then I'll bet that 3/4th of the farriers in North America would not be shoeing horses for a living.

OK, not sure how to "quote" but Rick's reply to Ron's statement strikes me as a little startling. If indeed 3/4 of North American farriers do not have a thorough knowledge of anatomy then it's no wonder that the "barefooters" and the "pro-licensers" are gaining so much credibility with the general public. Maybe, as Ron suggests, those 3/4 of North American farriers should not ever shoe a horse. Are we supposed to find acceptable that perhaps only 1/4 of the practicing farriers are competent to shoe a horse according to it's anatomical structure. If we're willing to accept that, then our "craft" is indeed in trouble.

Maryann

[ajfarrier]

Maryann, that is the most biggest problem all over the wold, not only in North America.
Without education and proper knowledge of anatomy there´s only ironhangers, but unfortunately there are few that think they know it all, even if they don´t. You just have to be humble with this trade.

But as my opinion, there should be a worldwide standards for farriers certification, not only by a country. Every countries have their very own specialities about shoeings and if all that stuff and knowledge could be collected together, everyone should be wiser...

Aj

[Rick Burten]

>Without a thorough knowledge of anatomy, one should even not ever shoe a horse. How in the world is anyone going to learn how to tell all structures in a horses foot without a thorough experience in reading X rays?

Were that opinion a fact, then I'll bet that 3/4th of the farriers in North America would not be shoeing horses for a living.

OK, not sure how to "quote" but Rick's reply to Ron's statement strikes me as a little startling. If indeed 3/4 of North American farriers do not have a thorough knowledge of anatomy then it's no wonder that the "barefooters" and the "pro-licensers" are gaining so much credibility with the general public. Maybe, as Ron suggests, those 3/4 of North American farriers should not ever shoe a horse. Are we supposed to find acceptable that perhaps only 1/4 of the practicing farriers are competent to shoe a horse according to it's anatomical structure. If we're willing to accept that, then our "craft" is indeed in trouble.

Maryann

Maryann

My comment was not quite precise enough(my fault) I was mainly referring to the comment regarding one's ability to "learn how to tell all the structuresin a horses hoof without a thorough experience in reading x-rays". However, there are a great number of people shoeing horses today in NA whose demonstrable knowledge regarding anatomy, physiology, etc, is only slightly above zilch.

Based on Ron's criteria, what is the number of farriers in the US that you believe are competent to shoe horses? Please base your response on the statistic that there are ~30,000-40,000 individuals calling themselves either full or part time farriers in the United States.

And your observation regarding why the BUA, etal, has gained momentum here in NA is,I believe, fairly accurate. It is not the only reason, but sure adds to the reasons. When you listen to those individuals, one issue that that is repeated continually is that the farrier just didn't/doesn't know anatomy.

As an aside. The one area of the certification exams that continually vexes candidates is the anatomy section. As one who has graded many many exams, I have observed that this area alone accounts for more incorrect answers and leads to more failing scores than just about any other area on the written exams. And let us remember that it is not just neophyte farriers who are standing for these exams.

[Gary Hill]

Maryann, I think the reason there is so much discussion, is the fact that as long as Joe Anyone can sign up for a two week school and be turned loose on the public as a Trained Farrier, our Craft is in trouble. So many newbies get in business and then they get in trouble and mess up a bunch of animals and then they go back to their other jobs? Or their egos run amuck and they are the Next Big Thing! Or because they can't master their own hand and eye control they start or drum up their own agenda of sorts to attack that, that they can not control! I'm not attacking any individual, but it's like the barefoot movement that insists shoes are EVIL. I have seen far more feet unproperly trimmed that I have seen shod wrong. That is because they both go hand in hand, do a crummy trim the shoe job is going to look bad too! Thanks, Gary

[Jaye Perry]

(Ron)Anyway I'm with Jaye here. I cannot believe that anyone can claim reading and understanding X rays of the equine digit is just for vets.

(Rick)Not quite what I said Ron. I said its not part of our job description. If it is, please direct me to where it says that. Nor did I say understanding/reading films was just for vets.


What is our job description ? Do we sit idely by and recieve suggestion and direction from people with a degree who have only a few hours of study in the foot and leg mechanics of a horse; for the most part?






Hey, I know. Lets do a survey of farriers and farrier schools in North America. We'll ask how many were taught to correctly read and interpret radiiographs while at school, and we'll ask the schools how many actually offer radiograph reading and interpretation as a part of their curriculum and how much time is spent developing the student's skill at this task. And lets take it one step further. Lets ask how many feel that reading and interpreting radiographs is part of their job description.

Sounds like a feesable and productive suggestion. It should be implemented.
With the horse owners population growing and horse owner knowledge diminishing; a well rouded and educated farrier is what the future needs.

What you or Jaye or I or anyone else chooses to do to further our own personal goals or needs is not germane here. The only thing that is germane, is the question of whether or not skill and expertise at reading and interpreting radiographs is a part of the job description for farriers.

IMO the germane fact that farriers who do not have the opprotunity to see a pant load of x-rays are lacking in their education and knowledge. Reading and interpeting x-rays are essential for the professional farrier. Reason being is that the farrier WILL be able to ask pertinate questions and give solid knowledgeable answers to the other equine professional involve; the vet.

In an effort to answer the question of whether or not the ability and skill to read radiographs is part of the farrier job description, I first referred back to what many/most consider the "farrier's bible", Dr. Doug Butler's "Principles of Horseshoeing II(I don't have a copy of his latest edition, so I had to make do with what I have). Nowhere in that book is the ability to read and intepret radiographs mentioned as part of the farrier's job description. further, only a brief paragraph is spent on explaining how to correctly read and interpret radiographs. Since Dr. Butler is considered one of the leading luminaries of our profession, what is one to think?


I have it.

"Farriers should learn how to evaluate radiographs. They need to examine and INTERPT them to properly perform theraputic shoeing". p.697, The Principals of Horseshoeing(P3), Doug Butler & Jacob Butler, 2004.



.......>Without a thorough knowledge of anatomy, one should even not ever shoe a horse. How in the world is anyone going to learn how to tell all structures in a horses foot without a thorough experience in reading X rays?


See qouated reference.


Were that opinion a fact, then I'll bet that 3/4th of the farriers in North America would not be shoeing horses for a living. As to the question ("How in the world...") I suggest that the answer is the same way they always have. By reading, watching disections, or performing disections, or availing themselves of the other educational possibilities out there(Allie Hayes hoof models come to mind here). And, since radiographs are relatively useless when trying to view soft tissue, how are they going to help anyone learn how to "tell all structures in a horse's foot"?


X-rays are sometimes useless in seeing and interpeting soft tissue lesions. That's why ultrasounds are necessay. that is another tool used by vets that needs the farriers attention.


>(Ron)I can't believe what I'm reading here.

(Rick)Why not?


I belive what i am reading here. Not being detrimental to Rick's ability to farreir a horse, it is a mental constrait imposed by the organization he (and I) are a part of. This comes by constraints in testing methods and educational protocal for studying of the CF or CJF tests. "The ability to follow a prescription" with no varible to HELP the horse.






>(Ron) BTW what happened to the super moderator status Mr. Burten, or did I miss out on something again.


I applaud Mr. Buerton or is it Bur 'en :D in his selflessness moderation!!!!

[Jaye Perry]

Evening to all of you.

Mr.Perry , the 2nd x-ray you posted here, is clearly rotated to my eyes and looks nothing like the ponymare´s x-rays.

..........AJ


That was the only pics that I had that were close to not coming out the bottom of the foot. :)

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=Jaye Perry].
>What is our job description ? Do we sit idely by and recieve suggestion and direction from people with a degree who have only a few hours of study in the foot and leg mechanics of a horse; for the most part?

Like I said, its not part of the standard farrier job description. What we choose to do to advance our education and career is another story.

Interestingly, I have had occasion today to vist with two of the best equine veterinarians in the area if not the state. I posed the question to each of them: "do you feel that reading and interpreting radiographs is part of a farrier's job description. Each replied , "No". then each went on to qualify their statement by saying that good and great farriers are smart enough to figure out that the ability to read an x-ray and then be able to intelligently discuss that x-ray with the vet is a good and often important skill to acquire. But that that skill is not what one considers a part and parcel definition of the the term "Farrier". Each vet opined that the farriers in their acquaintance who were working on veterinary referal cases, possessed the skill to a level that generally exceeded that of many veterinarians. They also opined that no farrier should ever read, interpret and then of his/her own volition go on to produce and apply a trimming and shoeing protocol without first involving the veterinarian. They both feel that to do so, would be defacto, the practice of veterinary medicine and could easily place the farrier in a quite untenable position(their opinion, not mine, although it strikingly similar to how I feel).



> Sounds like a feesable and productive suggestion. It should be implemented.
With the horse owners population growing and horse owner knowledge diminishing; a well rouded and educated farrier is what the future needs.

I don't disagree. How are farriers to get this education? What arguments are we to use with those farriers who are not involved in a veterinary practice or who only see the occasional horse that has radiographs to be viewed?



>IMO the germane fact that farriers who do not have the opprotunity to see a pant load of x-rays are lacking in their education and knowledge. Reading and interpeting x-rays are essential for the professional farrier. Reason being is that the farrier WILL be able to ask pertinate questions and give solid knowledgeable answers to the other equine professional involve; the vet.

Many farriers will only see the occasional radiograph and then defer to the vet. Right or wrong, it makes no difference because the vet is the one with the degree and the license to diagnose, prescribe and treat. The farrier is not.

I have it.

>"Farriers should learn how to evaluate radiographs. They need to examine and INTERPT them to properly perform theraputic shoeing". p.697, The Principals of Horseshoeing(P3), Doug Butler & Jacob Butler, 2004.

Thank you. I told you I didn't have that edition :(

And while I will probably be accused of splitting hairs here, the use of the term "should" rather than 'must" makes it optional, not a pre-requisite or essential. particularly if said farriers do not intend on performing ther*peutic shoeing. Whatever that term engenders.

Please bear in mind that I am in agreement that this is a skill that farriers should have. But it still isn't part of the basic job description.




> X-rays are sometimes useless in seeing and interpeting soft tissue lesions. That's why ultrasounds are necessay. that is another tool used by vets that needs the farriers attention.

Sometimes? I think, most times. Unless there is some calcification or other radio-opaque material present. And, while understanding ultrasound results may need the farrier's attention, it too is not a part of the farrier job description.


> I belive what i am reading here. Not being detrimental to Rick's ability to farreir a horse, it is a mental constrait imposed by the organization he (and I) are a part of. This comes by constraints in testing methods and educational protocal for studying of the CF or CJF tests. "The ability to follow a prescription" with no varible to HELP the horse.

The exams are not about testing one's ability to help the horse, perse. However, the Ther*peutic Endorsement(TE), is.

> I applaud Mr. Buerton or is it Bur 'en :D in his selflessness moderation

Anymore, I'm beginning to believe its Burt-N-Ernie for sure. :D

[Forgewizard]

Regarding radiographs: How do you impress upon the horseowner the need for curent radigraphs taken on a chronic mainitic horse? You know, the horse that went throught teh worst of the founder years a go, had radiographs taken then, but now has sort of recovered(pasture sound), is not being used and on just a maintenance hoof care program (with or without shoes)?

I keep encouraging several relativelynew clients to obtain new radiographs so we can evaluate what long term changes have occured in order to apply the best supportive methods, but it seems the horseowner is willing to maintain the status quo.

Along this same vein, on these long term cases with distorted hooves, do you find it beneficial to do a wall resection?

Or have you found that once the hoof wall growth at the dorsal toe is disrupted it always stays disrupted?

I have picked up a new client whose horse has a tremendously stretched white lline ( close to an inch). The horse's toes were allowed at one point to get extra long, as well as the heels allowed to develop excessive depth.

I have brought the heels down and removed a lot of the toe, which of course exposed a lot of the stretched laminae. The horse owner reports that the horse never had a wall resection during the initial onset of the the founder.
I am wondering, if at this late stage (the horse foundered several years agao) if a wall resecton will do any good.

The owner reports the horse was galloping with his herd mate for the first time in years after I nailed on a pair of heart bars. I just reset these heart bars a few days ago and noticed his off fore hoof is beginning to develop some concavity and the frogs are becoming active on both front hooves. WOO HOO! But I really would like to see a better dorsal wall on this horse- if it is possible.

I keep drawing on the hoof, with a marker to illustrate where I "think" the bone is positioned, but I'd really like to nudge them in to getting new radiographs - any suggestions?

[Ronald Aalders]

Guys the point raised by Mr, No-Longer-Super-Moderator-but-Merely-Senior-Member-Rick-Burten, is very valid. (I did like the Super Moderator status, by the way. It's shine kind of glanced on us too sometimes.........)

Would it be fair to consider 'illness' (and what vets are supposed to cure exclusively) "any process within the horse, that because of damaging internal or external effects, leads to changes within the horse, which changes result in a disturbance of the way tissue or cells function, either in quality or quantity, damaging the functional equilibrium of the horse's body, creating a response that should lead to restoring of this functional equilibrium" ?

This is my rough translation (and adaption to our situation) of the defenition of illness used in Dutch (human) medical science. I guess it does cover it all right? By the way, the definition is more or less the same all over the world, I was told. (And don't worry in Dutch I had to read it three times too to fully grasp what it said)

A lot of us will say that treating an illness is exclusively for vets. But if an illness is defined like that we can not even back up a toe to fix underrun heels ("external effects").

Obviously the anxiety of members of the medical community to keep non qualified people away from their play ground, may have a valid side, but does not meet day to day demands. Unless shoers get a prescription from a vet for every horse they shoe, we are always working within the definition of 'illness'. So every step we take trying to reduce strain on a horse to help it move better or less painfull is veterinarian science. Cutting out an abcess is veterinarian science. Backing up a toe too. Easing breakover on a horse with bone spavin is veterinarian science too guys!

So the bottom line here is if the veterinarian community does not want us to do anything that is related to fixing an illness, they have to do the shoeing themselves. Somehow I don't think they would want to.

By shoeing a horse we change external effects that may disturb the body's equilibrium. So we have to agree we are always working within limits of what vets call their field. If that is so, we better make the best of it. We better be sure to be just as well informed on a horses anatomy as a vet is. For that we need books, (or is the reading of veterinarian books just for vets too, like some seem think the reading of X rays is?) Let's study them and remain a factor within veterinarian science invaluable in the treatment of equine lameness problems.




Ronald Aalders

[Mike Ferrara]

Evening to all of you.

Mr.Ferrara, here in Europe and at least in Finland the Vets are doing those rotation measurements in millimeters. I know it sound odd, I was so lost with that matter 4 yrs. ago, I was educated to read rotation as a degrees in USA.

AJ

I guess that I would need some one to show me exatly what they're measuring for it to make any sense...or maybe they don't require enough math courses in vet school for the vets to understand it. LOL

We can certainly convert angular displacement into a linear measurement along an arc (I guess that's not really liniar is it?) but the radius must be defined for this to have meaning. 5 mm could be be .001 degrees if the radius is large enough or it could be 360 degrees if the rdius is small enough.

[Forgewizard]

At the Laminitis Conference in West Palm that I attended the mm measurements referenced were the distance between the interior of the dorasl wall and P3. It was shown that normal range for this distance was 17 to 25mm. Now I was taught the American method of measurements and to be honest, metric measurements throw me off- I always have to dig out a conversion chart. :rolleyes:

So, 17mm is more than 5/8" and just under 11/16", which are distances I can easily picture in my head when visualizing crescent wrench openings.

A distance of 25mm is just barely under 1" (63/64)- again a distance I can easily visualize.

So when reading a radiograph with those "normal" ranges in mind, of the distance from the interior edge of the dorsal wall and the leading edge of P3 it doesn't matter WHAT the exterior hoof wall looks like or has been rasped to.

The key of course would be in knowing what was normal for the horse BEFORE the laminitc insult!

[Ronald Aalders]

Guys this has nothing to do with metric or inches or what ever. The description 17 mm rotation just has no value whatsoever. It's meaningless.

Rotation can be measured by establishing the angle of the distal border with the horizontal. Another option (less accurate) is defining any angle between the dorsal face of the coffin bone and the dorsal face of the hoofcapsule.

Further rotation can be measured by comparing the distance of the horn lamellar zone at the apex of P3 and at the extensor proces. If there is a difference between the two (the HL zone at the extensor proces smaller than at the apex) there is a wedge that could be because of a rotated coffin bone.

I think the confusion has to do with the last method of measuring. Which by the way is not really the best way to establish rotation at all. If there is a 17 mm difference between the HL ext and the HL apex something is very wrong that much I can say. But even a huge difference like that does not necessarily mean P3 rotated!


Ronald Aalders

[Mike Ferrara]

At the Laminitis Conference in West Palm that I attended the mm measurements referenced were the distance between the interior of the dorasl wall and P3. It was shown that normal range for this distance was 17 to 25mm. Now I was taught the American method of measurements and to be honest, metric measurements throw me off- I always have to dig out a conversion chart. :rolleyes:

So, 17mm is more than 5/8" and just under 11/16", which are distances I can easily picture in my head when visualizing crescent wrench openings.

A distance of 25mm is just barely under 1" (63/64)- again a distance I can easily visualize.

So when reading a radiograph with those "normal" ranges in mind, of the distance from the interior edge of the dorsal wall and the leading edge of P3 it doesn't matter WHAT the exterior hoof wall looks like or has been rasped to.

The key of course would be in knowing what was normal for the horse BEFORE the laminitc insult!

So...if normal is 17mm - 25 mm (a delta of 8 mm) and they state that there is 5 mm of rotation, what does that mean? Is it 30 mm or 22 mm. In other words 5 mm from what? I realize that even when talking angular measurements you can't be precise without a "before" radiograph because dorsal walls aren't always streight and you'd have to assume parellel. The angular displacement from parellel may not be exact but I'll bet it's often a good estimate while 5 mm is still meaningless to me especially if normal is 17mm - 25mm. If the normal delta is more than the displacement caused by rotation we are (if I'm understanding this) in the noise range (too small for our measurements to tell us anything). In fact, in measurement system analysis we look for a ratio of at least 10/1 and better yet 100/1. Even if we settle for less precission and again, if I'm understanding this, I wouldn't assume any rotation at all unless they stated a rotation of st least 16 mm (at least 2/1) and no one who's ever measured anything would assume rotation for anything stated as less than 8mm (the normal exceptable range) and then you don't know if it's a little or a lot.

Getting even more picky, the measurement still doesn't mean anything because we're talking about some line (tangent?) to the arc of the (tip?) of P3. You would have to state the slope of that line because as the tip of P3 moves AP it also moves distally (because it's an arc) so you need to define the origine or slope of the line you're measuring. The relationship of a line of zero slope drawn from the tip of P3 and the dorsal wall does not have a liear relationship. And as I said before the angular displacement converted to linear distance (along the cir***france of the arc or to the wall) will change depending on the raius which is in this case the size of P3. Using this terminology a 5 mm rotation is worse for a small horse than for a big one in terms of angular displacement.

Well there you have it. Rick is tired of seeing people butcher the english language (but I'm an engineer and am almost obligated to) and I'm about fed up with people spewing stuff that's demonstratably (a Rick work...meant in good humor Rick) BS mathmatically. Outside of the "life frequency" ****olla we debated a while ago and the mis-use of statistics (probability) in studdies this has to take the cake. Again, maybe I'm missing something (and I opologize if I am) but this is, at best, highschool level geometry and trig. At this point I'm not only ready to go along with the old saying "strong back and weak mind" for farriers but I'm ready to put vets into a weak back AND weak mind catagory. Sorry, now I'm ranting. LOL Around here vets will tell you whether or not a horse has foundered, to raise the heels and give them bute without ever taking radiographs, blood tests or anything else so I guess having them give you a BS measurement of rotation after looking at pictures is an improvement!

BTW, back in the 80's I had a vet ask me to apply an adjustable heart bar to a foundered horse. I had never done it before and he arranged for me to talk to some one on the phone for some help. I wouldn't swear to it but I believe that it was Mr. Champan himself...the name didn't mean much to me at the time. It makes sense though given the time frame. He had before radiographs and he took them after. Of course I shaped the foot up some when I shod the horse and the vet swore up and down that the shoe pushed P3 right back to where it belonged because it was prellel again...due to my rasping. It was still blasting out the bottom of the foot yet no amount of explaining could convince the vet that it was the shape of the hoof capsul that changed and likely not the position of P3. What can you say?...definately more witchcraft than science in this business. No wonder the life frequency bull makes sense to some people. A magnet hung around the neck...that's the answer...as long as the shoe was hot and the clinches VERY smooth!

[Forgewizard]

Mike,
I think I'll have to read your post another 5 or 6 times before I can put all your equations together! My weak mind hurts more than my strong back at the moment! :p

I won't repeat what my mentor was always saying about vets and hoof care. ;)

But one thing he would say was that rotation was subjective to who was doing the viewing!

He cautioned me to observe radiographs and see the rotation (if any) as it related to the central alignment of the three lower bones. Downward deviation from that alignment was what he considered rotation of P3.

I am not so convinced that "X" amount of rotation equates to "X" amount of pain for the horse, OR the horse's ability to recover!

I do agree that being able to see the changes and understand them on a radiograph will help when it comes to application of external care! :)

[Mike Ferrara]

Mike,
I think I'll have to read your post another 5 or 6 times before I can put all your equations together! My weak mind hurts more than my strong back at the moment! :p

If I could draw a picture is would be easy to see. It's har to describe in words. I guess it would have been better to say that since we are talking about rotation nothing is moving in a streight line. If you describe it with a line you have to define the line beyond the length. Even then it's not very telling.

I won't repeat what my mentor was always saying about vets and hoof care. ;)

I can imagine.

But one thing he would say was that rotation was subjective to who was doing the viewing! With a before picture and some knowledge of what was done to the outside of the foot it doesn't have to be. Although that would be the exception rather than the rule.

He cautioned me to observe radiographs and see the rotation (if any) as it related to the central alignment of the three lower bones. Downward deviation from that alignment was what he considered rotation of P3.

I am not so convinced that "X" amount of rotation equates to "X" amount of pain for the horse, OR the horse's ability to recover!

I do agree that being able to see the changes and understand them on a radiograph will help when it comes to application of external care! :)

I mostly agree and as far as I can tell there's always some amount of guess work when it comes to figuring out what (if anything) and how much of it will help.

[Rick Burten]

Mike,

I think that tonight your parents are again very proud of you(please, its meant with respect, not disrespect) and your engineering education and background. I somehow knew that this discussion was going to bring out the analytical/engineering side and I'm glad it did.

"course you do know what Will Rogers said about statistics don't you?

In case some don"t, Will opined that there are three kinds of lies: Lies, damn lies and Statistics"

Anyway, thank you for the short course. I am fortunate enough to have a son who is an ME, so I will leave it to him to boil this down into concepts and terms that are more understandable by/to me.

Seems to me that if the dorsal wall of p3 and the dorsal wall of the hoof capsule are to be in a parallel orientation, regardless of the distance between them, then if lines drawn down the surface of each do not remain parallel but are tangental(is that a word MIke?), then we have rotation. Now, we have to decide if that is rotation of some or all components of the bony column below the fetlock, or of the hoof capsule proper. And then we have to determine if the bony column has sunk(or not) or if the hoof capsule has migrated upwards, or both. Right?

Have a great weekend! I'm off for the Aleve........

[Rick Burten]

I mostly agree and as far as I can tell there's always some amount of guess work when it comes to figuring out what (if anything) and how much of it will help.

(Ahem) I prefer to refer to it as "intuitive reasoning" rather than "guess work" :D

Sets the client's mind at rest that way. Even gets some of the vets to sit up and pay attention. :D

[Mike Ferrara]

Mike,


Seems to me that if the dorsal wall of p3 and the dorsal wall of the hoof capsule are to be in a parallel orientation, regardless of the distance between them, then if lines drawn down the surface of each do not remain parallel but are tangental(is that a word MIke?), then we have rotation. Now, we have to decide if that is rotation of some or all components of the bony column below the fetlock, or of the hoof capsule proper. And then we have to determine if the bony column has sunk(or not) or if the hoof capsule has migrated upwards, or both. Right?

Have a great weekend! I'm off for the Aleve........

I'm obviously not a physiologist, radiologist or DVM (is that a vet or a digital volt meter?) but that's about the way I see it...the nature of the change, cause of the change and where things are now probably being way more important than the exact amount of change.

Unfortunately, the times that I've been able to work with a vet having/using up to date info and techniques has been the rare exception so I can't claim much first hand expertise. In reality, a little bute and a trim (if that) is all the help many of these horses are ever going to get. You just don't want to be the one to work on them in the spring right before their anual or semianual attack because it'll be your fault. You'd think we were still in the dark ages.

Yep, you too, have a good weekend.

[Rick Burten]

I'm obviously not a physiologist, radiologist or DVM (is that a vet or a digital volt meter?)

Does that perhaps depend on how shocking the answer is or if one wants to measure the electrtical impact of said answer? or if one needs to determine if there is any electrical activity in the cerebral cortex?:confused:

[calshoer]

But if you look at the alignment between P2 and P3 it's pretty much a straight line the way it's drawn. So is this a rotated cb or not?
I would say this is an example of a rotated hoof without separation--capsular rotation if you will; heels are too high and the hoof capsule has distorted.

BINGO.
Actually that horse did indeed have active laminitis when presented , were (he had Equine Metabolic Syndrome). However long before that incident that was was a club foot ,(Arabian, right front, typical) his whole life prior to the laminitis. So the initial laminitis did not actually 'rotate' him any more than he had been his whole life (and had been perfectly sound that way). That is why he presented with a lined up p2 p3. The OTHER foot, the non club one did rotate. (see Picture)
Only after the first farrier stood him up even further because he was trusting the dorsal wall instead of the xrays did the horse really go south. When the first shoeing was changed it was into EDSS with rails(the horse could not get his heels on the ground when they were trimmed down because his muscles were in contraction) so it could be adjusted over time as the flexor muscles relaxed. He did eventually get into a clog with no wedge. But the RF was and always be a club foot, with a steeper than normal palmer angle even when the bones line up .
Patty

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=Denise McLain].
>If you look at the angle of the distal border with the horizontal (Ron's protocol) there is definite rotation. But I have to ask, what is the "normal angle" of the coffin bone in the hoof capsule---is it ground parallel or somewhere between zero and 10 degrees as some folks claim?

Has to do with spatial orientation, not just numbers. Since a zero degree palmer angle has repeatedly been shown to NOT BE the normal default spatial orientation of p3 within the hoof capsule(exceptions noted), and since every other equine researcher, anatomist, etc is in agreement that the caudal aspects of p3 are normally,spatially oriented above zero palmer degrees, then it is apparent to me that there is no question here. The answer is before us.

>Is this horse just suffering high heels?

No, he is also suffering a loss of integrity between the dorsal wall of p3 and the inner dorsal wall of the hoof capsule.

>If a "normal hoof" has a coffin bone that is elevated 3 to 5 degrees is that by definition rotated?

Not so long as it is in alignment with the other phalanges. It is merely in a canted plane.

>So is rotation the normal state of most domesticated horses?

Bogus question, to which you already know the answer. However, I'll indulge you.

No, rotation is not the normal state of most horses, domesticated or feral. Having the spatial orientation of p3 occur in a canted/ caudally-elevated plane does not, in and of itself, indicate or imply, rotation. I'm quite sure that Mike or one of our other mathmatically conversant participants can better explain the differences.

>If you use the method of determing the angle between the dorsal surface of the coffin bone and the dorsal surface of the hoof wall or the difference of the distance between the LH zone at the EP and the distance between the LH zone at the cb apex (IOW, the cb face and the inner or outer wall are not parallel) then by defintion this is a very rotated foot.
But if you look at the alignment between P2 and P3 it's pretty much a straight line the way it's drawn. So is this a rotated cb or not?

Ah, now we get into the area of bony column alignment and rotation, vs, capsular rotation. In this instance, I personally think that there is more capsular rotation than p3 rotation, but rotation does, nevertheless, exist.

>I would say this is an example of a rotated hoof without separation--capsular rotation if you will; heels are too high and the hoof capsule has distorted.

Any time there is a disunion(divergance of the parallel to the tangental) between the hoof capsule and p3 there is seperation. By definition, there has to be. and, as you by now have seen, we are in agreement as to the basic type of rotation that is occuring.

>If you had a rotated coffin bone with separation the alignment of P2 and P3 would not be so straight; the P3 angle would be steeper than the P2 angle with respect to horizontal.

What's your point? And, if there was accompanying sinking, then perhaps the alignment of p2 & p3 would not be very out of alignment.

Absent that, my job is to try and correct the problem. I agree, the heels are too high and the toe is too long, creating a pronounced leverage effect on the structure. Gotta determine what is causing the problem and then work to remediate it. And a hoof guage is not going to help me a whole lot here.

Neither is, IMNTBCHO, leaving this horse barefoot. But, thats just me. How would you manage the situation. And lets just deal with the mechanics and why, not the factors over which we have no real control.

>Denise

[ajfarrier]

You are posting here interesting things about reading x-rays :) Thanks about all this, it really gives me a lot of thinking ;)

Just try to figure this all clear into my mind...
Still waiting if someone of you could post a radiographs of 8 mm rotation of the P3 and also a normal / regular P3...

Got under a horse on Thursday and hurt myself a bit, am going to shoe that ponymare just until Monday evening.

I will take those radiographs with me and trying to post them here...

I got barely nothing from the Vet about the shoeing this mare, that´s why I´m asking help here. She just told me the P3 has rotated 8 mm and told me to shoe pony as I want... as you realize, I´m middle of nothing here with this.
The heart bar shoes is my thought of help the mare.

[Mike Ferrara]

I got barely nothing from the Vet about the shoeing this mare, that´s why I´m asking help here.

I'm not surprised.

She just told me the P3 has rotated 8 mm and told me to shoe pony as I want... as you realize, I´m middle of nothing here with this.
The heart bar shoes is my thought of help the mare.

How to shoe would depend on what you believe to start with and what works in the end. Well, and then there's questions like is the horse acute, chronic, both or what?

I'm in the camp that thinks that once there are rotational changes in the foot the reasonable thing to do is to de-rotate, wedge if needed to address DDFT tension and try to get the hoof to remodel itself around the current position of P3. I can't present a bunch of evidence but it makes sensae to me.

At the same time note that I'll bet there have been at least as many failures with one methode as another if any one is counting.

[Jaye Perry]

I'm not surprised.

How to shoe would depend on what you believe to start with and what works in the end. Well, and then there's questions like is the horse acute, chronic, both or what?

I'm in the camp that thinks that once there are rotational changes in the foot the reasonable thing to do is to de-rotate, wedge if needed to address DDFT tension and try to get the hoof to remodel itself around the current position of P3. I can't present a bunch of evidence but it makes sensae to me.

At the same time note that I'll bet there have been at least as many failures with one methode as another if any one is counting.


Well we are back where we started.When the thread began, The lack of experience(s) in reading a x-rays.
Take some more x-rays, see if the bone has or is moving.
Laminitis and it's rotation, in some cases, takes 1-60 days to see some or little change in the radiographs. :rolleyes:

[Mike Ferrara]

Well we are back where we started.When the thread began, The lack of experience(s) in reading a x-rays.
Take some more x-rays, see if the bone has or is moving.
Laminitis and it's rotation, in some cases, takes 1-60 days to see some or little change in the radiographs. :rolleyes:

Exoerience reading e-rays can be darned tough to get unless you purchase an x-ray machine and take them yourself.

[old heller]

well been away awhile and this is a great thread.Granted I am a "newbie"but i will say 100% that I would have trimmed this horse in x-rays the same way that previous farrier did providing that sole plane dictated such I would have stood back and admired my perfect alignment niether broken back nor broken forwad and I would have been wrong thanks for posting x-rays and all that have contributed

[Jaye Perry]

Exoerience reading e-rays can be darned tough to get unless you purchase an x-ray machine and take them yourself.


It might hard in some areas but I would bet if one would introduce themselves to the local vets in the area and asked to review some old x-rays to better thier "Education" the vets wouldn't have a problem.
It helps everyone involved :D

[Mike Ferrara]

It might hard in some areas but I would bet if one would introduce themselves to the local vets in the area and asked to review some old x-rays to better thier "Education" the vets wouldn't have a problem.
It helps everyone involved :D

Most of the vets around here don't have an x-ray machine. In some cases, I have trouble getting information from vets working on horses I'm shoeing even when there are pictures...ESPECIALLY if the clinic has a farrier (though that may not be the reason).

I have met the farrier who shoes for Purdue and I suppose if I made time to go in there when he's working I'd be able to take a peak. I'll have to try to make time to do that.