Club Foot balance Issues- how would you fix?

[Azrael2005]

Please see pictures of my horses feet at

I need to be able to have a knowledgeable back and forth with the farrier about this. It has only been 2 weeks since this horse's last shoeing!! :eek: Horse is 4 year old TB/Han dressage horse that is slightly off. Right front is the biggest problem since it is upright and clubby (but looks normal when trimmed properly so I am not sure if it is really a club foot or just suffering from a bad trim). Angles are currently 51 on left front and 54 on right front in the pictures. We pulled the RF shoe because he was off and reacting to hooftesters and seemed like he bruised it. The white line is stretched. Vet took digital xray of RF and I have that to give to the farrier but the others look kind of messed up too!! Vet is only concerned with RF right now and was so busy I could not get every question in I had. Basicly he said to get 50-52 angles in the front according to the xray and full silicone pads. 52-55 angles in the back. Vet said horse is going around with one high heel and one tennis shoe in the front, right heel way too high and toe way too long. I just hope this farrier will listen to my vet's instructions. I used a new farrier of my trainers because I moved him but I just can't believe he looks like this after 2 weeks. I have only had the horse for 4 months but I have not had any problems until now. However, I know this foot is a problem and was brewing the whole time. I just want to be aggressive and stay on top of it. The xrays revealed healthy coffin, navicular, pastern bones. There was very slight separation at the wall the vet said. We have started the horse on isoxsuprine and he is not turned out right now since ground is so hard. Vet also gave him some meclofenamic acid a NSAID that is supposed to be good with foot issues.

Vet said I need to make sure this horse is shod properly or he is doomed! Also, I forgot to mention that he paddles on the left front. Please help, anything is appreciated!! :confused:

[calshoer]

I think you need a second veterinary opinion of what to do. Although I agree pads of some type may be in order, I disagree with trying to match the feet.
Attempting to make the feet match usually ends up making the club foot WORSE internally. Lowering the heels of the club foot to try to match the other will only place more pull on the deep flexor tendon, which is what pulls the tip of the bone down more and more, especially if that foot is shod out to the end of that stretched distorted toe, continuing the abnormal levrage.
Read everything here about club feet and then get a another vet opinion before the farrier goes cutting off more heel (unless he plans on wedging it back up after he trims them back) .
BTW this horse is typical of a club foot,,,the opposing hind (the left hind) is also more upright than it's mate. )
The treatment needs to focus on reducing the internal stresses and foot pain that are CAUSING the club foot even if that means you have two different feet. The more you treat each hoof as an individual the faster they will change internally and eventually match better *on their own* as the internal source of the problem is corrected.
Patty

[Azrael2005]

Thanks for the reply. We did try the pads on both front.

Another thing I forgot is that he slightly paddles on the left front which is not the clubbed foot. Sometimes I can't even see it but other times I do. Also, under saddle he leans pretty tough to the right side.

I met with the trainer's farrier today and he was not interested in watching the horse move, talking with me about the problem, or looking at the xrays. I guess I just had them done to frame on my wall then! He basicly dismissed me and went about his work. He said I bought a club foot and that is what it is. When I told him the vet said the coffin bone was coming apart from the hoof wall, he said, "thats a club foot!" When I tried to initiate a discussion, he said he has 30 years of experience and he didn't cause the problem. All I know if that the hoof did not look like an elf foot 2 weeks ago. I just want to help my horse.

Can a club foot be effectively managed so that the horse can have a normal competition career?

My vet said to try silicone pads and he just went ahead and put leather pads on him with no explanation. Not that it is that big of a deal but, whats the problem??

The horse also has a purple bruise on the left front hoof (middle left side) that I asked about and he said "who knows?" The purple bruise was not there 2 weeks ago either. You can see the bruise on the pictures. The horse went to a schooling show last weekend (about an hour) and the footing was a bit harder than it is at home so I think something might have happened there, but not sure. This all showed up about 4 days after the show. Show was Sat, he had off Sun, ridden M-T, Wed this showed up and he has been off since (5 days).

Either way, I don't care what caused it, if I thought he caused it I wouldn't have let him try to fix it!!

I don't know if he is off or lame but he is still rather sore to hoof testers on the sole :( I don't know what to do with him, turn him out? leave him in his box 24/7? ride him at the walk in the soft indoor footing to get some exercise?

The joys of horse ownership.

[calshoer]

I met with the trainer's farrier today and he was not interested in watching the horse move, talking with me about the problem, or looking at the xrays. I guess I just had them done to frame on my wall then! He basicly dismissed me and went about his work. He said I bought a club foot and that is what it is. When I told him the vet said the coffin bone was coming apart from the hoof wall, he said, "thats a club foot!" When I tried to initiate a discussion, he said he has 30 years of experience and he didn't cause the problem. All I know if that the hoof did not look like an elf foot 2 weeks ago. I just want to help my horse.

It is YOUR horse, your money, and if the farrier refuses to dioscuss this ithink it is time you move on to another farrier. he is working for YOU.

Can a club foot be effectively managed so that the horse can have a normal competition career?

Absolutely, but even you as an owner are seeing some of the distortion and detrmental changes that are occuring with the current management.
The reason the hoofwall in the toe of the club foot is seperating is not that it is a club foot, but from the way it is being managed. (and is one of the results of trying to make them match in size and angle).The toe is being leveraged out there away from the bone and the foot needs to be managed differently. Iwould insist that your trainer allow you to find a different farrier, one who will listen to your concerns.
If the feet look worse, they probably ARE getting worse.
Here is a picture of a club foot with no seperation in the toe. The wall is nice and tightly connected because the toe is not being allowed to get pulled forward away from the bone.
Patty

[Rick Burten]

I think that Patty has offered you some good advise, starting with finding a farrier who is not only skilled and knowledgeable, but who is willing to take the time to discuss your questions and your horse's needs.

While the left front foot/shoe appear to be 'tidy' I think the toe should be rolled all the way back to the inside edge of the web of the shoe and more heel support provided. If this horse did not show a positive reaction to hooftesters over the frog, I would, at a minimum support the frog, commissures, bars and sole with EquiPak, and probably would go with a frog support pad and impression material on both feet. I don't know that I would, initially, wedge up the left front, rather I would try the above modifications and changes first. The right front, needs to have a shoe applied such that the breakover is in the correct location and there is proper heel support. The side view of the right front shows toe wall dishing and p2 jamming into the coronary band. This indicates to me that the internal alignment of the coffin joint is incorrect. Rather than lowering the heels even more, I think they need some elevation and the frog, commissures, bars, sole needs support, as indicated above. Since radiographs are current, it should not be a major problem to correctly locate where the breakover should occur. Locating breakover correctly and applying the other parts of the protocol should provide an immediate change in the alignment of the bones and should reduce/relieve the pressure both on the coronary band and on the sole.

To me, the back feet are also candidates for frog support pads/impression material, etc.

I find that often during this time of year when the feet are really growing quickly, that the club/up heeled foot/feet needs attention revery three weeks. Since my horses are, generally speaking, on a six week schedule, this works out quite advantageously for all concerned.

Please remember that, especially in horses above the age of two, club feet, up/down syndrome/ stacked heels-dished toe syndrome/whatever is managed not "corrected"

Rick

[Jason Maki]

Patty,
Your picture of a tidy club foot nearly matches on I have in my phone! the only difference is I rockered the toe of a Victory Aluminum (nearly the whole web) Which one would be "traditional"? :rolleyes: :D
When I can talk my wife into showing me how to e-mail the pics in my phone , I'll try to post it here so we can compare notes...
Jason
Ps On second look, did you rocker the toe of that shoe?

[calshoer]

Patty,
Your picture of a tidy club foot nearly matches on I have in my phone! the only difference is I rockered the toe of a Victory Aluminum (nearly the whole web) Which one would be "traditional"?
When I can talk my wife into showing me how to e-mail the pics in my phone , I'll try to post it here so we can compare notes...
Jason
Ps On second look, did you rocker the toe of that shoe?

When I say "traditional" in reference to a club foot I refer what I was originally taught, that is placing the breakover point of the club foot all the way out to the perimeter (or further) and trying to make the outer hoof angles match.
I was not taught to roll the toe of a club foot but rather try to "stretch" the tendon and match the other foot's shoe size by extending the toe. Then when that eventually failed to recommend them to the vet to consider surgery. Maybe that is not truly "traditional" in the 1800's sense because those REALLY old books showed rolled toes all the time, but it sure still the recomendations in too many modern shoeing texts, and unfortunately still taught in some schools.

So I would say that rolling the toe of a club foot is a newer approach, that USED to be done on most feet,(even normal ones), two hundred years ago. Somewhere in the middle it seems to have gotten lost.

And No I didn't rocker the toe of this shoe ,it just came out looking that way in this picture because the foot and the shoe are almost the same color. This is just a NB shoe with the little bit of overhanging toe (maybe a quarter inch) rolled to match the angle of the front of the shoe..Same basic mechanics ,different shoe.

If you figure out how to get those pics out of the cell phone and into the computer let me know I am trying to figure out the same thing with my new phone... :confused:

Patty .

[Azrael2005]

Thanks alot everyone. I guess the farrier just continued to shoe him after I left yesterday. I put some updated photos of what the feet look like now after he did him yesterday. I know this is not going to be fixed in one shoeing but does it look like it is at least on the right track? Or should I consult with another farrier?

He was ridden lightly for a few minutes today in the indoor which has incredible footing (after 5 days off) to check for soundness and he was sound in the indoor.

Farrier put leather pads on instead of silicone that my vet wanted. I am not sure of the significance there or why he would choose the leather pads instead. What is the difference between the two?

Thanks again.

[calshoer]

Well the RF looks a LOT better. He set the toe back some which will help correct the wall sretching forward,and wil lease the stresses inside the foto so the hels may shed more sole off next time and be allowed to get lower. How is the horse walking on hard ground? heel first ?toe first? Or one foot heel and one toe? The type and evennness of foot landing at a walk is a good indicator of how he is balanced up.

I still do not undrstand why he won't use the recommended pads. The vet is probably trying to get some form of support under the soles and frogs,especially in the left foot. If the farrier prefers the
breathability" or naturalness of leather he can pack under a plastic frog support pad with Hawthorne's Sole Pack or some other ground leather packing. Or make frog support pads out of leather with frog pieces riveted on the ground side. I do not like leather pads because they break down and completely lose their protctive ability over the shoeing time due to urine and such. . Plastic holds up SO much better.
And if you pack under plastic with a ground leather /iodine/pine tar type packing the soles stay really healthy.
If you look at the LF from the rear, you can clearly see the frog sinking down between the heels of the shoe from lack of support. Other than that issue the feet look a lot better. But don't expect them to match completely no matter how they get shod or trimmed, they liklely never will.
Patty

[Azrael2005]

Thanks alot Calshoer. I appreciate your time and thoughts.

I have decided that I will consult with another farrier because something tells me that that I will never be able to work with this guy and he certainly will not consider my vets ideas.

Another issue, I noticed yesterday (and reason I started another thread in the general forum) is that this horse is forging almost every other stride at the trot now. He never used to do this with the regularity he is doing it now. What causes this? I mean it CAN'T be normal to crack your self every time you move and it can't feel good either. When I mention it to the trainer she says that he is moving bigger now and his stride is opening up. This may be true but still :confused: I see plenty of big movers that don't do this. I think my trainer implicitly trusts this farrier and just would never question anything he did. Please give me your thoughts on forging as it may relate to these issues.

Regarding the pads, I don't like the leather pads either and I saw yesterday after his ride when hosing him off that the pads were already stretching a bit and that they would not hold up too long. The irritating thing is, I have to pay this guy for 2 shoeings now that he did not take into account anything I or my vet asked for. And he is NOT cheap! I just can't believe I have to be out so much $$ and his feet are not even done in a way that I am happy with.

Does anyone have any recommendations for a farrier in the MD/PA on the DE side? One that is willing to work in conjunction with a vet (not take orders from one)! Just work together with! Thanks.

[calshoer]

Why don't you ask the vet for a recommendation of someone they know they can work better with? Most vets have certain farriers they know they can communucate best with .
It is your call ultimately even though it may create friction between you and your trainer.
And you are correct. Big movers who are moving correctly and efficiently do not forge.
Although it can be caused by things such as saddle fit or the actual riding style, or some other piece of equipment fitting the horse wrong, or a sore back, usually it is coming from some imbalance in the feet. (front or hinds or both) . Even though these feet look better to me now, they may need a little more tweaking. Adding that frog support usually helps get the horse to reach out further with the front legs because it stimulates some sopecial nerve endings that lie under the back part of the frog. ,Then bcause he is getting to the true full length of his stride, it helps him get his front feet moving more efifciently and in better in time with the hinds.
You really need a TEAM willing to work together ,so ask your vet what farriers they like to work with.
Patty

[Azrael2005]

Since this did not resolve after 6 weeks, I took him to another clinic (this will be the 4th vet to look at him now...) say he has foundered in that RF foot and rotated by 5-6 degrees based on xrays!!! I am FREAKING out!!! They said I should consider myself lucky if he ever WTC sound again!! The farrier there did his feet based on the xrays and they look incredible and he is much happier and comfortable. He has a glue on and a pour in pad made into a heart bar heel support instead of an actual bar shoe. How the heck could he founder and 3 really good vets look at the xrays and not say anything about laminitis/founder??? And he is sound but they say he still has heat in the foot...

I am freaking out and in complete shock that I just bought this 4 year old horse with hopes of competing him and he may never even be able to be ridden sound. I called my vet surgeon and he said he disagrees completely with that diagnosis and there was no evidence that the horse foundered based on the xrays he took and evaluated in his clinic. He said they could have meant mechanical founder from the misalignment of the foot (improper shoeing) causing the separation at the hoof wall but that there was no evidence of founder unless something changed from when he saw him a month ago. I told him what they said about the xrays and 5-6 degree rotation and he said that they are being a bit dramatic with their diagnosis they are basing completely off of xrays . He said that much of the rotation is heavily dependant upon the way the foot was trimmed/shaped at the time of the xray. He said in shoeing that foot I am going to have to be extremely consistent and sure the angles are correct with regard to alignment by using xrays. And that foot is always going to be a maintenance issue that I will have to deal with.

How in the world could the horse founder and no one know? I have almost 1k in vet bills but still no idea what is going on. He did abscess twice and my trainer's vets think the lameness is due to the abscesses....but a 6 week lameness for an abscess?

I have no idea what to do with this horse now. I am going back in 3 weeks to have his feet done again and xrays at the clinic of doom. I really like the farrier there so I am going to stick with that to get the feet in better shape.

The foot really does NOT look too bad and maybe that is why there is so much disagreement and I can't believe he is sound and comfortable but his foot is rotated by 5-6 degrees on the RF only?

Club foot issues with improper shoeing or founder issues???? Help!

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=Azrael2005]>Since this did not resolve after 6 weeks, I took him to another clinic (this will be the 4th vet to look at him now...) say he has foundered in that RF foot and rotated by 5-6 degrees based on xrays!!!

Often times these stacked heel, dished toe(as opposed to a true club foot) horses have rotation . Some have even argued that while it may not be a true metabolic founder, it is infact, a road founder situation and should be treated accordingly. Interestingly enough, many of us here on the forums do just that, even though we may call it something different. We set breakover either based on radiographs(when available) or other 'markers' in the foot. we provide a lot of heel support. We try to derotate p3, and we provide a mechanical means of supporting the structures located posterior to the apex of the frog. Often, we lower the heels on the high side, and then wedge them back up to whatever level is necessary to attain heel first landing.

The low side, to me, needs the support brought back further at the heels, and some additonal frog support provided.

I would never try to make both feet have the same angle, for even if I were successful, that success would only be momentary as the feet soon begin to change as they grow out.

I agree with Patty about the hind feet, and would probably have added a 1/8 - 3/16 inch level rim pad/shim to the left hind. And, I would insure that there was frog support, either natural or mechanical.


> I am FREAKING out!!! They said I should consider myself lucky if he ever WTC sound again!!

First, relax, you are at the beginning of a process to help this horse, not the end. Thus far, I have seen nothing that would preclude his return to soundness. Do you have some whole body pics, from the side, and from behind him(with the picture including a clear view of his top line from rear to front) that you can post?

> The farrier there did his feet based on the xrays and they look incredible and he is much happier and comfortable. He has a glue on and a pour in pad made into a heart bar heel support instead of an actual bar shoe. How the heck could he founder and 3 really good vets look at the xrays and not say anything about laminitis/founder??? And he is sound but they say he still has heat in the foot...

All feet carry some heat. some carry it some of the time, some carry it most of the time. It is the degree of warmth and the horse's response that truely tell the tale. As the pathology is more and more correctly addressed, I would predict that the heat(most probably caused from sub-clinical inflammation), will subside. And, it sounds like this farrier is really on top of his/her game.

>I am freaking out and in complete shock that I just bought this 4 year old horse with hopes of competing him and he may never even be able to be ridden sound. I called my vet surgeon and he said he disagrees completely with that diagnosis and there was no evidence that the horse foundered based on the xrays he took and evaluated in his clinic. He said they could have meant mechanical founder from the misalignment of the foot (improper shoeing) causing the separation at the hoof wall but that there was no evidence of founder unless something changed from when he saw him a month ago. I told him what they said about the xrays and 5-6 degree rotation and he said that they are being a bit dramatic with their diagnosis they are basing completely off of xrays .

Perhaps you should get a copy of the new radiographs and compare them to the original ones. And, if possible, post copies of each here for us to look at.

>He said that much of the rotation is heavily dependant upon the way the foot was trimmed/shaped at the time of the xray.

Not quite true, but a reasonable 'cop out'. Regardless of how the foot is trimmed, rotation will still be evident if you know what to look for.

>He said in shoeing that foot I am going to have to be extremely consistent and sure the angles are correct with regard to alignment by using xrays. And that foot is always going to be a maintenance issue that I will have to deal with.

I agree with this assessment, but remember, within 24 hours of any trim, the feet are starting to change.

>How in the world could the horse founder and no one know? I have almost 1k in vet bills but still no idea what is going on. He did abscess twice and my trainer's vets think the lameness is due to the abscesses....but a 6 week lameness for an abscess?

The horse may not actually be foundered. Where did the abscesses occur. The horse may be lame either because of or inspite of the abscess'. If,anterior to the apex of the frog, the sole is thin, if the heels were lowered but not supported, if the heels were lowered, supported, but there was pain created when the musculo-tendinous unit was tightened by the lowering, if p3 is impinging on the sensitive solar corium, If the horse is unable to load the heels properly for any reason, if the internal alignment of the phalanges is not correct, then the lameness could last the full six weeks, and longer.

>I have no idea what to do with this horse now. I am going back in 3 weeks to have his feet done again and xrays at the clinic of doom. I really like the farrier there so I am going to stick with that to get the feet in better shape.

Actually, you have stated a rather correct plan for what to do right now.

>The foot really does NOT look too bad and maybe that is why there is so much disagreement and I can't believe he is sound and comfortable but his foot is rotated by 5-6 degrees on the RF only?

Welcome to the vexing world of high-low syndrome.

>Club foot issues with improper shoeing or founder issues???? Help!

How high is up? Regardless, establishing a trimming and shoeing protocol to remediate the pain, align the phalanges, load the heel, acquire heel first landing, conserve the sole anterior to the apex of the frog, will go a long way towards remediation of the problem.

I would also suggest you, the farrier, and the vet, look into using the EDSS approach(www.hopeforsoundness.com), at least initially, to help accomplish the goals outlined by me.

Please let us know how it is going, and post pictures whenever you can.

[Azrael2005]

I added some pictures of my horse from when I first brought him over in March 2005 and he was sound and happy in regular work from March until Mid July. I also added the prepurchase xrays of right and left front from Sept 2004. I added 30/July/05 and 23/August/05 radiographs also. The August ones are pretty low quality but that is the best I could do with them. The vet that recently diagnosed the rotation stated that I started with a 2-3 degree rotation in the Sept 04 xrays.....and he might have foundered previously?? I highly doubt this though.

I also added 2 pictures of his feet after they were just done at the clinic. I need to take more but my husband actually took them quickly for me when I was out of town.

The abscess popped out the inside coronary band twice. It didn't seem to drain the whole way the first time and closed up. It popped again right next to the first one so there were 2 "eruptions." :o

I don't have any recent pictures not under saddle. He has gained a bit of weight because of the stall rest even though he gets only hay...and a handful of food.

Thanks for the encouragement. I am slowly losing faith in the veterinary community going through all of this...