CEU's for CJF's?

[Jason Maki]

An edict has been passed which would seem to presuppose licensing! Apparently in order to maintain my CJF status, which I tested for voluntarily, I must now attend the AFA Convention, write two (published?) articles, attend four days of AFA chapter events, or give demo's or speaches at an AFA recognized event, within a two year period. I would rather take the written, practical and barshoe test every five years, just to prove I could.
This would appear to be an attempt to "legitimize" the certification process. The question is who are the powers that be trying to "legitimize" the certifications for...? Anyone who has tested knows the skills, written and practical are tough. This paper work, attend a conference BS stinks of beuracracy. Will the next postcard from the AFA, say send your money to buy your license, or you cannot work? I have stayed out of this conversation, because I am jaded towards authority behind a desk.
Here is what I see being attempted and the net result. The AFA will attempt to have the CJF credential be recognized as neccasary for licensure(or perhaps the CTF). Most farriers will probobly not sail with Ahab into the tail of the whitewhale, and will let their credentials lapse, ergo the few who have played the CEU game will be empowered when the licensing issue erupts into Federal regulation. The "uncertified" farriers will be required to work under the license of the "certified" farriers...
The problem is if the AFA alienates most of their membership, they will lose their play...

"I am a free trapper, by GOD!"
Jason Maki CJF? (unless I don't write an article or two!)

[Rick Burten]

Interesting. I have, for years, wondered why the AFA did not require CEUs as a part of maintaining the credential. Other professions have that requirement and seem to prosper.

I was glad to see the AFA finally recognize the value of CE and add it as a credential requirement.

And, at that, the requirements are not going to be too difficult to obtain.

24 hours over two years. Not much to ask. Most of us go to a couple of chapter events in a year's time, some write articles and many go to convention.

Now it is not clear to me whether the Personal Lectures and/or Personal Demonstrations have to occur at an AFA recognized event, or if they will include talks to 4-h groups, Pony Clubs, Breed Association groups, etc. I will contact the office to get clarification on that point. It will also be interesting to see how the AFA handles the issue of those farriers who choose not to maintain their credentials through CEUs. What are they going to do with those individuals. It certainly seems wrong to me if they attempt to pull that individual's certification, much the same as it would be wrong(not to mention practically impossible) for the University of Illinois to pull my B.Sc. if they should decide that in order to maintain it, I had to do some equivelant to CEUs. I will have to querry the office as to how they intend to handle this issue.

And, I'd like to see the CE program expanded to include such things as the Internationa Hoofcare Summit, The Bluegrass Laminitis Symposium, The Farrier & Hoofcare Online Conference, and other conferences of that type.

The CE issue has been on the table for a long time. I don't think it has anything to do with the licensing issue, rather I think it comes out of the frustration with the fact that after many individuals obtain the AFA credential of their choice, they tend to stop moving forward, to 'rest on their laurels' so to speak.

Knowing how hard I worked to achieve my accreditations, I cannot conceive why anyone would want to let them lapse, just because they had to do some CE work. Where would we be if the other professions that require CEUs, were populated with individuals who felt this way about their professional association's requirements?

I can fully relate to how those who have already acheived their accreditation must now feel. The CE requirement wasn't part of the deal when they stood for the exams. Their accreditation is a 'fait accompli'. I do think the AFA has taken the correct track in not grandfathering in all those who certified prior to 01July2005. As time goes by, I may well change my mind on that issue, but at first blush, my position stands. I also remember when the AFA changed/upgraded its certification requirements. Those who had previously attained their accreditation were not required to upgrade by taking and passing the new requirements. Instead, they kept their credentials, but IIRC, they could not become testers or examiners and I think that there were some other restrictions involved. But they were still CF's or CJF's. And that has not changed.

At least now, any one who wishes to stand for the exams, will do so knowing that there is now a CEU requirement in place.



To those who choose not to keep their accreditation current, I say Thank You for what you have done, your support and I wish you only the best in the future. To those who choose to maintain their credential I also say Thank You and I look forward to seeing you, reading articles you have written, and/or hearing you speak and demonstrate somewhere down the road. To those who will now still, in the face of the new requirements, still voluntarily stand for the exams, I also say Welcome, Thank You, and I'll see you out there too.

On a personal note, Jason, whether or not you choose to maintain your CJF credential, is of no consequence to or for me. It was my priviledge to be your tester the first time you stood for the exam, and though at that time you were not successful, I knew you soon would be. And my intuition was soon borne out. You will always have, in my mind, that special status reserved for anyone who has successfully attained his/her CJF appellation.

Rick

[Roy Amaral CJF]

First- this was a measure decided on by the board and at this time there are no consequences for not doing your CE hours. I imagine there might be later?

Dosen't really matter to me. I think I'm up to 60 or so since this came up in Feburary. I don't think we're setting the bar real high on this one.(24 hours every two years)

[Rick Burten]

Considering the number of hours some of us seem to spend on these forums, perhaps we should get the forums approved for CEUs. :D

Roy, if you accrued the hours prior to 01July2005, will they count towards the requirements? The information at hand is not clear on that subject.

Rick

[Jason Maki]

Rick,
I guess I should finish my own thinking before I set it down on 'paper' for the world to read! I would have, had CEU's been required, completed these easliy last year. I am just a tad paranoid about licensing and may have read a little deep.
My first thought was this is a "practical" trade, and all of the knowledge does no one any good if your hand cannot do what your mind says.I have often thought that some form of retesting, atleast a portion, would be positive. I just see sweeping, big changes, engendred by essentially one person and keep waiting for the Reichstag to burn! :eek:. Attending clinics is great, but what if you hang out by the chocolate chip cookies and the coffee pot?
I guess I posted my gut instinct and not my thought out response, so thanks for thinking for me. You seem to teach me by pointing out my errors! :o
Jason

[Phil Armitage]

Jason said: My first thought was this is a "practical" trade, and all of the knowledge does no one any good if your hand cannot do what your mind says.

You hit the nail on the head Jason. You do not need anyone to help you think.

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=Jason Maki].

>My first thought was this is a "practical" trade, and all of the knowledge does no one any good if your hand cannot do what your mind says.

Jason, we here on this forum interact with one another strictly through the exchange of knowledge and ideas. No hands on at all. Yet, we each are able to take something away from our discussions. When , for example, you post pictures of a foot with a problem, or a shoe you are working on for a contest or the like, and anyone responds with advise, comments or criticism, you then are able to (hopefully) take that information and apply it(or not) at your discretion. Practically, one person has only transferred some information, while another has potentially applied it. So, the (if I may be so bold) theory that this is a "practical" trade is not a precise one.

One of our collegues(or perhaps several) has offered the opinion that knowledge is like horse manure. Left piled up all in one place, it kills the grass beneath it. Spread that manure out in a wide, fertilizing arc, and all the grass greens up and grows. And I think that knowledge is much like that.

>I have often thought that some form of retesting, atleast a portion, would be positive. I just see sweeping, big changes, engendred by essentially one person and keep waiting for the Reichstag to burn! :eek:.

Every administration has its own set of goals and priorities. This administration is pretty much a lame duck one, and unless something really unforseen occurs during the up coming mid-year BOD, I don't see anything earthshattering happening during the remainder of his (the one person we are referring to :rolleyes: )term. As for the retesting, I agree although I have always tended towards the concept of CEUs. This may be because as a tester I have had to keep my skills sharper than I might otherwise done, and because of the requirement that to continue to be a tester, I have to attend a tester up grade clinic once every two years. At these clinics, our practical skills get demonstrated so I guess now I really get what I asked for---CEUs and skill demonstration. (I note here that the upgrade program is a bit behind schedule, and is undergoing some improvements of its own).

>Attending clinics is great, but what if you hang out by the chocolate chip cookies and the coffee pot?

This is a problem in any profession that requires CEUs. Heck, even if attendance at each lecture or demo at a clinic/conference was taken, there is no guarantee that the attendees are paying any attention. But, at least it is a step in the right direction.

Rick

[tbloomer]

Will the AFA de-certify everyone that does not complete the CEUs? What about all of the AFA members who got certified and then dropped their membership?

When you pass your certification, the AFA sends out a packet giving their legal permission to use their logo and their trademarked CF and CJF designations. Can the AFA legally de-certify those that fail to "register" their CEUs? Can they legally prevent them from using the CF or CJF designations on business cards, letter heads, advertisements?

My membership in the AFA and my AFA certification has no significance in the horse owner community. I have encountered a lot of resentment from farriers who are not members of the AFA. Why is that?

Tom Bloomer, CF

[Phil Armitage]

[QUOTE=Jason Maki].

>My first thought was this is a "practical" trade, and all of the knowledge does no one any good if your hand cannot do what your mind says.

Jason, we here on this forum interact with one another strictly through the exchange of knowledge and ideas. No hands on at all. Yet, we each are able to take something away from our discussions. When , for example, you post pictures of a foot with a problem, or a shoe you are working on for a contest or the like, and anyone responds with advise, comments or criticism, you then are able to (hopefully) take that information and apply it(or not) at your discretion. Practically, one person has only transferred some information, while another has potentially applied it. So, the (if I may be so bold) theory that this is a "practical" trade is not a precise one.

One of our collegues(or perhaps several) has offered the opinion that knowledge is like horse manure. Left piled up all in one place, it kills the grass beneath it. Spread that manure out in a wide, fertilizing arc, and all the grass greens up and grows. And I think that knowledge is much like that.

>I have often thought that some form of retesting, atleast a portion, would be positive. I just see sweeping, big changes, engendred by essentially one person and keep waiting for the Reichstag to burn! :eek:.

Every administration has its own set of goals and priorities. This administration is pretty much a lame duck one, and unless something really unforseen occurs during the up coming mid-year BOD, I don't see anything earthshattering happening during the remainder of his (the one person we are referring to :rolleyes: )term. As for the retesting, I agree although I have always tended towards the concept of CEUs. This may be because as a tester I have had to keep my skills sharper than I might otherwise done, and because of the requirement that to continue to be a tester, I have to attend a tester up grade clinic once every two years. At these clinics, our practical skills get demonstrated so I guess now I really get what I asked for---CEUs and skill demonstration. (I note here that the upgrade program is a bit behind schedule, and is undergoing some improvements of its own).

>Attending clinics is great, but what if you hang out by the chocolate chip cookies and the coffee pot?

This is a problem in any profession that requires CEUs. Heck, even if attendance at each lecture or demo at a clinic/conference was taken, there is no guarantee that the attendees are paying any attention. But, at least it is a step in the right direction.

Rick

Rick, very well said. You made an excellent point. Shareing knowledge or just our observations, things we have tried etc.. is good both ways, the person shareing learns and the people listening and watching also learn. Some peope are extraverted some are intraverted. The trick is to have a forum where the intraverts are made to feel welcome. Sometimes we scare off the intraverts, us extraverts can give a hoot. Great piont you made on how it helps the trade.

[reillyshoe]

My first reaction is that these changes sound reasonable. My second reaction is that I wonder if credit will be given for articles published in the American Farrier's Journal, or just for articles in the Professional? Will CE credits be given for attending the Hoof Summit, or vet conferences, or Strasser workshops or just for AFA events?
In short, I wonder if the agenda is an altruistic promotion of knowledgeable farriers to represent our industry, or is it an attempt to increase the importance of AFA related magazines and meetings.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Tom Bloomer, CF in red, deletia

Will the AFA de-certify everyone that does not complete the CEUs? What about all of the AFA members who got certified and then dropped their membership?

I'll have to ask my lawyer next time I shoe her horse, but since Congress can't make post facto laws, I don't think the AFA can pull somebody's credential if they received it before the new continuing education rule was passed. Given that AFA certification is better kept secret than whatever happened to Jimmy Hoffa, the question is moot anyway. Folks who give a damn will do whatever's necessary to maintain their credentual; those who don't, won't.

Personally, I think a continuing education provision is way overdue, but I'm a bit shaky on the scale of weights and I haven't seen anything on how it'll be administered or enforced.

[Phil Armitage]

My first reaction is that these changes sound reasonable. My second reaction is that I wonder if credit will be given for articles published in the American Farrier's Journal, or just for articles in the Professional? Will CE credits be given for attending the Hoof Summit, or vet conferences, or Strasser workshops or just for AFA events?
In short, I wonder if the agenda is an altruistic promotion of knowledgeable farriers to represent our industry, or is it an attempt to increase the importance of AFA related magazines and meetings.

I have the same thoughts and that is a good question. Will be interesting to see respones on this. I am all for continueing education. I attend all the clinics I can, read all the books I can every year, not every two years. I get on this forum and type my arss off writeing all kinds of things almost every night, not once every two years. I also shoe full time, practice my forge work and try new things. Does all this count?

[Roy Amaral CJF]

Like I said there is no enforcement at this time. Your required to do your CE hours but if you don't there is no penalty- yet. I don't know if there ever will be but taking away something people have worked so hard for isn't going to sit well.

24 hours in two years is nothing anyhow. Who cares?

One big plus in my mind is it will get everybody to send in their events to the office which should get everything on the calender. I hate finding out about something I would have wanted to attend too late to go.

Why wouldn't an article in the AFJ or the hoof summit count? Even a Strasser clinic, what the hell? I think it would be fun to send a bunch of journeyman to a Strasser clinic. We'd have to tape that. ;)

[Dave Purves]

From what I've seen, heard and read, I believe the CEU's are only applied to "AFA or Chapter" sanctioned functions. I don't know if this is good or bad. I do know that the certification is through the AFA so it makes sense that the CEU's be given for AFA events. I also believe that they should include the Summit and other things, and probably will. This is just the tip of the iceberg. With such a new thing it's probably better to start small. We all attend chapter meetings, clinics and contests one way or another. Most will go to at least one convention every five years if not every two. My father is a CPA, he has CEU's and he gets many from the professional magazines. They publish questions or a "quiz" if you will, in the back of the magazine. The questions are all on topics that are covered in that particular issue. Then you fill out the answer sheet provided and mail it in. I don't know how many credits he is required to have or how many credits these "quizzes" are worth. But it does ensure that he reads the magazine and is up to date on all of the changes in tax codes and blah blah blah that happen. I don't know if that would work for our trade, as many ideas, and research that is done is taken more as opinion than fact. The changes in tax code are fact, no one can disspute them. But the way to find balance or fit a shoe isn't so black and white. BUt maybe if we had to answer questions based on articles written and research done, it would broaden our horizon a little.
jmo :cool:
Dave

[Bryan Quinsey]

Friends -

You ask very valid questions - questions that I have asked the AFA's Certification Committee too.

What happens if someone does not complete the 24 CE hours? I don't know.

Will other events (Hoofcare Summit, Hoofcare Online Conference, etc.) be included? I don't know.

The wording of the approved motion states:

1. Attendance at AFA Annual Convention - 24 hours - pretty simple to administer

2. AFA Chapter Functions - 6 hours per day - we're going to be pretty liberal with this. If an AFA Chapter hosts an event that lasts 1, 2, 3 or more days, we'll give them credit for the full event. Attendees will have to sign in on specially designed forms (approved events have been mailed the forms) that will be mailed to the office once the event is complete. The AFA office will immediately post the information into the database. Members can (using their AFA # and password) go to the "Members Only" section of the AFA website (www.AmericanFarriers.org) and see the hours that they have achieved.

3. Written Articles - 12 hours. Please just send us a copy of the article. Doesn't have to be published. And you can write the article for Professional Farrier, American Farriers Journal, Hoofcare & Lameness, Loose Shoe, European Farriers Journal, or any other publication (does NOT have to be farrier or equine). And if your article is published, when we receive a copy of a publication and see your article, we'll immediately credit you with the hours.

4. Personal Clinics/Demonstrations - 12 hours. Please send us a copy of the promo information from the sponsors/presenters of the clinic. Doesn't matter who the clinic sponsor/presenter is ... 4-H, breed associations, farrier retailers, schools, publications, etc. And, if we have the information on the AFA's Calendar of Events, we'll go ahead and give you credit. As Roy Amaral, CJF has pointed out, the more information that is provided to us, the more information that can be shared about events that will promote CE hours.

One other thing that is included in the original motion is an exemption for any farrier who has been shoeing for 20+ years. Just provide us with some type of supporting material that you've been shoeing for this number of years and you'll be exempt. Very easy.

This is not meant to be detrimental to any farrier. It is only intended to encourage farriers to continue their education .... either by attending events or sharing their knowledge with other farriers.

As you can see there are many unanswered questions. If you have additional questions, please send them to me and I'll work to get you an answer from Dick Becker, CJF (Chairman, AFA Certification Committee).

Thanks,

Bryan

[Phil Armitage]

Bryan,

All of these things help the AFA.

1. Attendance to the AFA convention. This also make money.
2. Articles for the PF. Very needed.
3. Spreading the word about the AFA. also very needed.

Am I missing something here, at least your straight forward and honest.

I quess with all the talented writers out there that are AFA members someone will cleverly justify all this and call it educateing the farrier. :)

[Rick Burten]

Bryan,

All of these things help the AFA.

1. Attendance to the AFA convention. This also make money.
2. Articles for the PF. Very needed.
3. Spreading the word about the AFA. also very needed.

Am I missing something here, at least your straight forward and honest.

I quess with all the talented writers out there that are AFA members someone will cleverly justify all this and call it educateing the farrier. :)

Phil,

Why shouldn't these things benefit the AFA as well as the farrier. After all, the credential is awarded by/through the AFA . And, don't you think that the various ways of earning CEUs is infact a means /method of educating farriers?

rick

[Jason Maki]

Boy, my knee jerk reaction has sure made a mess :eek: ! I want to fully retract my intitial disgruntlement. I also wish to clarify WHY I reacted the way I did. A degree, once earned cannot be revoked: however a license to perform the service for which the degree was granted can. The knowledge tacti to a degree is yours, but the license to perform the task can be revoked or denied. CEU's are usually tied to maintainig a license. I watch my wife teach umpteen million CEU classes for health care folk every year... so they can keep their license. That is why i reacted as I did, the concept of CEU's is bound in my pea brain to licensure, gov't involvment et al.
This could be a good way to keep the standards behind the credentials high. I just hope it stops there.


Sadly, eventually, I am sure I will need to buy a license to do my job...but I do not have to like it or help that dark day along!
Jason
PS- Does anybody know what you call a freelance Socialist? A bank robber!

[Dave Purves]

I agree Rick, why shouldn't these things benefit the AFA and the credential holder? The only way the AFA can really keep a handle on CEU's is if the majority of the CEU's are in conjunction with AFA sponsored events. That way they have someone there on the ground that can keep tabs of who's there. Why would Frank Lessiter keep track of the AFA CF's and CJF's that attend the Summit, be responsible for getting their names, and then on top of that be responsible for sending that information to the proper people so the credits get reported? Frank has no ties with the AFA, not that he hates them, but he's not affiliated in anyway, so why would he take on that extra responsiblity when he has plenty on his plate already? However, it's very easy to send the proper paperwork to a chapter president and have that person responsible or delegate another chapter member responsible, when most of those people are getting their credits also, at some chapter function. I don't understand were you're coming from Phil. It's AFA certification CEU's. Why woulnd't that involve that AFA? How do you propose to get around the AFA, when trying to attain the proper amount of CEU's to maintain your AFA certification?
I just don't understand
Dave

[reillyshoe]

Wouldn't it be funny if the committee that came up with these guidelines had all been shoeing for 21 years?

In my area, there are many places to continue farrier education. The most popular are the suppliers (free) clinics, and they account for (at least) three per year. The vet clinics (REC and Tuft's) offer two more. There are several more smaller clinics to attend. Nationally, there are so many great conferences I don't know where to start. Even the internet. I'm surprised the AFA would choose to not recognize any of these sources of information as being worthy of "credit".

Of course you are encouraged to spread the word through any avenue you would like...

I think the best response to someone with opposing like Dr Strasser is not to ignore them (or slander them) but to educate farriers about what their issues are. If you were a client considering Dr Strasser's ideas which would you be more inclined to believe from your farrier "she's a quack" or " I think her suggestions about the proportions of the foot are improbable to achieve, and she has no data to back up her claims of success".
As always, it's the AFA's club and they can do as they wish. I just wish they would look at the big picture a little more.

[Phil Armitage]

Phil,

Why shouldn't these things benefit the AFA as well as the farrier. After all, the credential is awarded by/through the AFA . And, don't you think that the various ways of earning CEUs is infact a means /method of educating farriers?

rick

I do not think we can really say it benefits anyone until you know for a fact the information is beneficial. I guess you can say it may be more appealing to those who agree with the AFA but to say it benefits all farriers is not true, it is also false to make the claim it benefits the horse industry.

It would make more sense for the AFA to take a stand and encourage farriers to further there education to include new research. For example NB for starters. Also take a harder look at barefoot methods.

Right now I do not see that this is what the AFA has in mind.

Correct me if I am wrong, I see the primary motivation for the AFA to do all this is to preserve traditional or conventional shoeing and trimming and hopefully stop NB and barefoot.

This is just how I see it right now, maybe I am wrong.

[Steve Swain]

As far as CEU's go that's not a bad idea. From what I can surmise from reading these posts, there are a whole lotta folks that already do the CE thing. Whether the CE's are blessed by the AFA is a different story. The biggest thing to me would be the published article. The written word and I don't get along to well, it is very painful to write something that comes close to saying what the brain housing group wants. Pursuit of knowledge is never a bad thing, and can never be taken away. Unless by a prefrontal lobotomy or is that a free bottle in front of me?

[reillyshoe]

Rick,
Of course it could be reasonable for the AFA to promote its own events. Even the most ardent AFA supporter would acknowledge that there might be some valuable information available outside of their scope.
Applying education credits to only AFA events seems to suggest that the only education worth having is through the AFA.

[Julie Plaster]

Boy, my knee jerk reaction has sure made a mess :eek: ! I want to fully retract my intitial disgruntlement. I also wish to clarify WHY I reacted the way I did. A degree, once earned cannot be revoked: however a license to perform the service for which the degree was granted can. The knowledge tacti to a degree is yours, but the license to perform the task can be revoked or denied. CEU's are usually tied to maintainig a license. I watch my wife teach umpteen million CEU classes for health care folk every year... so they can keep their license. That is why i reacted as I did, the concept of CEU's is bound in my pea brain to licensure, gov't involvment et al.
This could be a good way to keep the standards behind the credentials high. I just hope it stops there.


Sadly, eventually, I am sure I will need to buy a license to do my job...but I do not have to like it or help that dark day along!
Jason
PS- Does anybody know what you call a freelance Socialist? A bank robber!Not so fast Jason... That "knee jerk reaction" prompted some really great discussion!!

Julie :-)

[reillyshoe]

The AVMA gives CE credits for non AVMA events- such as farrier conferences.

[Phantom Farrier]

Is it really about education or is it about money? The way I read the flyer I received in the mail is all that's required is for me to pony up for the convention registration and I'm covered for all 24 hours. Don't have to go to any lectures, in fact no need to even attend the convention and I'm covered.

Did someone say CJF's with more than twenty years service need not comply with the new CEU's. If that is in fact true I really don't see the point.

Phantom

[Rick Burten]

Rick,
Of course it could be reasonable for the AFA to promote its own events. Even the most ardent AFA supporter would acknowledge that there might be some valuable information available outside of their scope.
Applying education credits to only AFA events seems to suggest that the only education worth having is through the AFA.

According to what Bryan Quinsey has written on this site on the subject, a farrier who speaks/demonstrates to a 4-h group, pony club, etc, will be eligible to earn CE credits. So, its not just AFA events that will qualify,

Further, I think that rather quickly, other conferences of repute will be able to apply for being recognized and cleared to offer AFA CE credits.

Rick

[wwhite1973]

Forgive me for not being so bright, but I don't understand why someone with 20 years or more of service should be exempt from CE, unless you really can't teach an old dog new tricks. I have always been one who tries to learn something new every day and when I don't, I am a little disappointed. What kind of message does this send to young members? One of the problems with some new farriers is that when they start getting paid for shoeing they think they know it all and don't need CE. Now are we telling them they don't know it all until they have been doing it for twenty or more years? Are you people of twenty or more years telling me that you know it all and there is nothing more to learn? Well I am amazed. The man who taught me has been shoeing for 30 years and he is still trying to learn as much as he can. Whoa! Do I need to tell him he doesn't need to learn anymore because by AFA standards he all ready knows it all? I look up to those with that much experience and I applaud them for their accomplishments, but exempt from CE! I am sorry, but writting articles does not make a farrier.

[wwhite1973]

One more note. I fully recognize that the AFA is its own organization and should do things to ad revenue to the organization for the benefit of the membership, make its own rules for certification and CE, but it should be done without alienating the membership. I strongly agree that CE is very important to ALL farriers even if it is researching the internet, library, horse and hoof periodicals and learning from each other. However a farrier can pass the AFA test and become a CJF and operate for twenty years. He might have never used a forge again, maybe used standards outside the realm of the AFA testing, never attended a clinic or meeting, and might be the greatest person in the world, but that doesn't change HIS NEED for continued education!

[Bryan Quinsey]

Just to give you some more information on the subject, I am posting a quote from Richard Becker, CJF (Chairman of the AFA's Certification Committee):

"With regards to the CE programs, I understand that there are concerns. We do need to reconstruct the criteria. We know that there are a lot of educational programs that are not directly affiliated with the AFA and we don't want to exclude them without considering their merit. We have to keep records, and we need to develop a means of doing this. Setting up this system is on my "to do" list. Dealing with committee members, board members and AFA policy takes a little time. The program is a good idea, and has a good start. Like a ladder, we are on the first rung. Climbing the next few steps will take some time and input from many members. If you have any ideas that would help us develop a way to screen potential CE programs or enhance this program, please let me know."

Richard Becker, CJF
coalforge@chartermi.net

[Gary_Miller]

Forgive me for not being so bright, but I don't understand why someone with 20 years or more of service should be exempt from CE.
Its not that they don't need it its because by the time you have been shoeing for 20 years you should have enough experiance to be considered an expert in the field.
These guys don't need incentive to do CE they do it automaticly.
They also are the ones teaching the CE.

Gary

[wwhite1973]

Pardon me but I have always been under the assumption that continued education was meant to further ones education. Twenty years of experience doesn't necessarily make one an expert. Where I live continued education is manadatory to keep your real estate licenses and your number of years of experience doesn't make you exempt. I still feel CE is desperately needed but I am sorry I feel it is wrong to exempt any group from CE requirements. What would it hurt for them to have to participate in CE requirements? If they are the experts, don't need incentive (because they do it automaticly), and are the ones teaching the class, then it really ought to be pretty dad gum easy for them to fulfil the requirements. The worst it could do is bring some of those 20 year experts that haven't had much to do with the AFA out and get them involved and bring some of their wisdom into a class room that otherwise wouldn't have been there. There will always be something to learn in the farrier industry no matter who you are.
Wayne

[Dave Purves]

Wayne, while I agree with you, the fact is, that most farriers that worked hard towards achieving thier CF or CJF status, are the ones that are attending the clinics and contests, and conventions. Not that anyone that's not a CF or CJF doesn't attend, but the percentages are in favor of those that spent the time and money getting certified. So you're correct it should be very easy for these guys and gals to attain thier ceu's. I think they excluded people with 20+ years just so they wouldn't complain. I can hear it now, "I've been doing this for 22 years, who do they think they are demanding that I now go to the convention, or clinics?" I think it's just easier to let them off the hook.
Dave

[Rick Burten]

Just to give you some more information on the subject, I am posting a quote from Richard Becker, CJF (Chairman of the AFA's Certification Committee):

"With regards to the CE programs, I understand that there are concerns. We do need to reconstruct the criteria. We know that there are a lot of educational programs that are not directly affiliated with the AFA and we don't want to exclude them without considering their merit. We have to keep records, and we need to develop a means of doing this. Setting up this system is on my "to do" list. Dealing with committee members, board members and AFA policy takes a little time. The program is a good idea, and has a good start. Like a ladder, we are on the first rung. Climbing the next few steps will take some time and input from many members. If you have any ideas that would help us develop a way to screen potential CE programs or enhance this program, please let me know."

Richard Becker, CJF
coalforge@chartermi.net

(with apologies to Tom Stovall whose command of the Spanish language and its subtlties is far in excess of mine),

Aqui lo tienne usted!

[jseyffer]

Darn - I think it should be required for everyone.... I was going to use it as an excuse ... "I have to go honey, I need the CE hours" Seriously, I have been shoeing something over 25 years (recently got my 25yr AFA pin) and I still go to all the clinics I can.

[wwhite1973]

Thanks Dave for the clarification! I think I have a better understanding now.
Wayne

[Cyber Farrier]

Friends -

You ask very valid questions - questions that I have asked the AFA's Certification Committee too.

<snip>

Will other events (Hoofcare Summit, Hoofcare Online Conference, etc.) be included? I don't know.

<snip>

This is not meant to be detrimental to any farrier. It is only intended to encourage farriers to continue their education .... either by attending events or sharing their knowledge with other farriers.

Thanks,

Bryan
Bryan,

I certainly hope the Farrier & Hoofcare Online Conference is approved for the CE hours. It's been approved for 12 CE hours for Vets and Vet Techs, nationally, for the past 3 years. The agenda is second to none, and offers farriers who can't take the time off to go to the Convention, or simply can't afford the travel, an excellent way to advance their education. The latest line-up is avaiable at http://www.horseshoes.com/onlineconference/index.html

Baron

[Phil Armitage]

For the past 6 years I have been continueing my education. Since I have started in this buisness I have attended at least 3 clinics a year. Rochester Equine Clinics Farrier/Vet Conference every year. I also go to two other clinics every year. Everyone of these clinics hosted some of the top Farriers and educators in the Industry from all over the world. I am sure many farriers have done the same thing. I hope the AFA includes this as continueing education. I will make up a list of the clinics I have attended and who the clinicians were. Some of the names off the top of my head are. Dr. Pollit, Gene Ovyneck, Doug Butler, Dr. Ogrady, Dave Farly, Jim Poor, Dietler from Germany, The US Olympic Team Farrier, Dr. Rooney, Danny Ward, Hillary Clayton.

I have done this all my own, so I can be the best I can be. I know many farriers that do the same without the encouragement from any organization.

I have always thought this was the norm. Why does the AFA think otherwise?

[Bryan Quinsey]

Baron:

Any change to approve functions other than those hosted by AFA Chapters will require approval of the AFA Board of Directors. As you know, the Board will meet on September 10, 2005. I do know that Richard Becker, CJF (chairman of the Certification Committee) does plan to discuss this item with the Board at that meeting. I'm certain that you will see action on this issue as a result of that discussion.

Bryan

[Phil Armitage]

Bryan, out of curiosity; Does the AFA leadership think most farriers do a good job continueing there education or a poor job? If they have an opinion either way how and from who did the gain there information?

[Rick Burten]

Bryan

You have said that if a farrier(CF,CTF,CJF) is going to give a talk or demonstration to a group outside the AFA, such as 4H, Pony Club, etc, that if the office knows ahead of time, it can qualify for CE hours for the farrier. At least that was how I understood what you said. If that is the case then lets suppose that I am going to be a speaker at the Hoofcare Summit, or the On-line Conference or the equivalent. If I inform the office about this committment ahead of time, will it qualify for CEUs? If indeed it will, then does that not also mean that the conference itself should, independently, qualify for CEUs for any CF, CTF or CJF in do***ented attendance? And, shouldn't the only question be, how many CEU's the conference qualifies for?


Now, as if you didn't already have enough on your plate, I thought I'd add to your portion. :eek:
I think that any AFA member who attends any function, or writes a paper, etc that qualifies for CEUs, should receive credit for the same number of CEUs that is available to credentialed members of the AFA. In other words, "one for all, all for one" so to speak.

Rick

[Roy Amaral CJF]

How's it work if we team up with another professsional for an article or demo?
Does everybody involved get full credit or do we share the hours?

Rick's idea about tracking everybody's CE hours sounds like a good on to me.

Maby we could offer some kind of recognition to whoever has the most hours or and award for maintaining a certain number of CE for the two year period.

[cordell_rogers]

In my other life as a CPA, I am required to track my CE hours and report my hours to the national association every other year to show that I am staying current. I need 40 hours every 2 years. If I teach a CE class, the class hours count double since it is assumed that I had to do some research & preparation to teach the class.

The national association occassionaly selects members to audit their CE hours. It is no big deal - it requires minimal do***entation and proof. I just keep a list of the classes I attend and keep any handouts or receipts. By the way, the only way to get out of CE hours is if you are an old-timer who is no longer in public practice. In that case, their certification goes dormant and they would need to do some CE to come out of retirement.

[Forgewizard]

Bryan,

Will the AFA recognize past attendance to chapter sponsored functions as "CEU" credit? Or will they only be issuing credits form "this starting point and forward"?

[Bryan Quinsey]

Friends:

I have been informed that the AFA's Certification Committee will be meeting via conference call on the evening of Thursday, August 18, 2005.

One of the items on their agenda is Continuing Education. If you have suggestions that could assist them in their discussion please forward those suggestions to:

Chairman Richard Becker, CJF - coalforge@chartermi.net - (810) 664-6764
Gene Armstrong, CJF - ngaila@aol.com - (805) 226-7320
Shayne Carter, CJF - lonepeakforge@wmconnect.com - (801) 576-0953
Bob Davis, CJF - hobbit89@yadtel.net - (336) 998-5187
Andrew Elsbree, CJF - dae283@aol.com - (518) 966-4171
Jim Quick, CJF - (303) 619-8513
Steve Stephenson, CJF - stephensonforge@aol.com - (406) 669-3138
John Voigt, CJF - jvoigt@midwest.net - (618) 995-2720

Thank you,

Bryan

[Bryan Quinsey]

Bryan,

Will the AFA recognize past attendance to chapter sponsored functions as "CEU" credit? Or will they only be issuing credits form "this starting point and forward"?

The starting date for the two-year window is July 1, 2005.