Suggestions needed!!

[BurnbankSportHorses]

Hi guys, i have a 6yo Clydie x Thoroughbred mare, who was belted by an ***** of a farrier as a youngster. This "farrier" claimed to be a specialist in young horses, but belted her in the guts as hard as he could with his rasp - because the 18 month old FOAL wouldn't stand perfectly still. (she was rocking back and forth, wasn't snatching her hooves away, wasn't trying to kick etc) To cut a long story short, she freaked out and pulled back, the halter snapped and she flipped herself over backwards.

Took about 12 months before she was confident enough to be handled by a farrier again, and was great for trimmings, but hates being shod. She hates the noise of the hammer, the feeling of the hammer banging etc. Shes now been shod for almost two years, and we still have to fight with her. She was VERY nervous to start with, she would panic herself and end up covered in foamy sweat and stand there shaking etc. Through me and my new farrier (who is amazing!) working with her calmly and persisting with her, she is now 99% over her fear of farriers - but now it seems its just habit to refuse to have her front shoes done.

12 months ago it would take us about 2 hours just to get the shoes OFF, and about 3 more hours to get new ones on! I'm sure many of you have dealt with crappy Clydesdale feet which crack and break apart almost instantly, this horse CAN NOT go without shoes - due to not being able to have her trimmed for the 12 months after she was abused her hooves suffered and years later we are still working to completely correct the damage that was done in that year. We ended up resorting to giving her a sedation paste - which helped a bit because she was sedated but not enough that she didn't know what was going on. Recently we have done it without the drugs, but still have to use a twitch while doing her front shoes. Last time she was shod we had back ones put on for the first time - and she stood like an angel and was half asleep.

My farrier went back and picked up her front hooves again thinking we had FINALLY had a breakthrough but NO she went back to her rearing, pulling away, refusing to pick them up, snatching them away etc. She isn't scared anymore - she knows my farrier very well and doesn't shake, sweat etc like she used to, she just has it set in her head to be a complete ***** when hes trying to do her front shoes.

People keep asking me why i even bother with her and why i don't just have her barefoot, but if i have her barefoot - shes as good as dead. This horse is an amazing horse, who i've known since the day she was born. Shes the reason i got back into riding after coming close to being killed in a horse accident - she has brought me so much happiness, i owe this to her. This problem was caused by a person, not by her.

Any suggestions on ANYTHING that can be done to help her get over this would be greatly appreciated. Not only is this annoying for me as her owner its HELL for my farrier, he has done an amazing job with her and he shouldn't have to deal with this but unfortunately there are some *****s out there that create problems like this. I really want help with this for my farriers sake, not for mine.

[BurnbankSportHorses]

Forgot to add - i have done a lot of work with her to get her over the sound/feeling of the hammer, and now i can stand there and bang on her hooves with a hammer all day and it doesn't bother her -but when it comes to actually shoeing her it becomes an issue again.

[Gary Hill]

Apparently it is the position that her legs are in that makes her uncomfortable. If you can bang on her feet with a hammer and she takes it, then when the Farrier has them between his legs he may have her too high? I have had alot of them like this that just will not allow you to have them held high or in a normal position? Get lower and they get comfortable. Good Luck!

[DavidinGA]

I was gonna say what Mr. Hill said, I've also seen horses that would fight if the hoof was held too high or too far to the side or just about anyway but just how they wanted it. Does your farrier use a hoof cradle? I know some guys who swear by them and some who just swear at them but it sounds like it would be worth a try for your girl. Also, you might want to look up a member named Bruce Matthews ( I hope I spelled that right) and look into his DVD. I haven't seen it ( it's on my Christmas List though) but I understand from other members that it demonstrates a very good method for training/re training horses to stand for a farrier.

Hope this helps
David

[horse_n_hoof]

This has been a very common problem for me with any large draft breed, and not a single one of them have ever been abused (that we are aware of). I have tried a cradle with no apparent success, the owners have routinely worked with the front feet between their legs, even tried sedatives for some. It has been especially common in Clydesdales for me, and so far no luck at all, not even the vet seems to have a better suggestion. One of my client's horses gets so frustrated that he purposely lays down on top of me with no warning (I quit doing him incidentally). I am a very gentle person, very patient, never show my frustration so the horse will feel comfortable, but I have not found a cure. Keep working with her, hang in there, and I'm sorry for the pain she suffered that first time, shame on him!

[brian robertson]

Two options: Drugs and/or Glue.

By the way, who told you an 18 mo old was a foal? Most Clyde x TB crossbreds are about 15.2h and 1200lb at 18mo and should have been trained to stand for hoofcare. Why wasn't this one? Wasn't your LOVE enough for the BABY?

This horse should be done by the European method: the owner holds the leg and foot while the farrier stands to the side to trim and nail up. Then that "only rocking back and forth" might suddenly become an issue for somebody besides the farrier.

[E and E Farm]

Yes I agree with DavidinGA that Bruce Matthews is the person to consult with on this behavior issue. Personally I have found his methods to be extremely effective. Sometimes these breeds can have EPSM and also similar appearing shivers. Both conditions have been described as having signs as you have described-snatching the leg away, abnormal muscle tension when the leg is lifted, tremor in lifted and supporting limbs, etc. Also horses with suspensory pain will get a "compartment syndrome" according to Sue Dyson and this may lead to pain reactions when the leg is lifted into certain positions the horse does not usually adopt. If it was me I would try Bruce's methods consistently for 2 weeks 3 times per week minimum. If the horse has not improved, then perhaps speak to your vet and get a biopsy from these folks-
http://www.cvm.umn.edu/umec/lab/home.html
they are very knowledgable and approachable. Some ppl stop all dietary simple sugars while they start feeding properly cooked linseed daily gradually in 1/4 cup increments, only increasing the amount after each 7 day period. Lysine is required for muscle repair as well. Checking the total minerals your horse is getting and bringing them into the required balance also helps muscle function and recovery. Parasites and toxins can cause muscle and behavioral problems too. Katy Watts on this forum knows about nutrition so she might be of help. Our thoughts are with you in helping your horse accept help from your farrier.


linseed recipe

cover with twice the amount of water and simmer for three (3) hours, adding water as neccessary
let cool uncovered and then refrigerate covered to store for up to 4 days

[AussieMal]

Definately get Bruces video. Look up on here VTHorshoes in the members list or I think he has posts going in general discussion. He is a very friendly guy who specialises in draft breeds and all of his stand for shoeing and his methods are gentle.

[smitty88]

How long does it take your farrier to shoe the horse
doing the fronts or all four

[Kaydence]

This has been a very common problem for me with any large draft breed, and not a single one of them have ever been abused (that we are aware of). I have tried a cradle with no apparent success, the owners have routinely worked with the front feet between their legs, even tried sedatives for some. It has been especially common in Clydesdales for me, and so far no luck at all, not even the vet seems to have a better suggestion. One of my client's horses gets so frustrated that he purposely lays down on top of me with no warning (I quit doing him incidentally). I am a very gentle person, very patient, never show my frustration so the horse will feel comfortable, but I have not found a cure. Keep working with her, hang in there, and I'm sorry for the pain she suffered that first time, shame on him!

You know, now that you mention it, it is pretty consistently the drafty of the draft crosses who are hardest on me with this rocking back and forth nonsense. I actually put it down to me being too short for some of them. I do find there is a sweet spot that for some horses is higher than others. They seem to feel insecure if the leg it too low. Not many of them but then again, I avoid the big guys as much as I can. If I'm working on a heavy draft cross, you can assume their owner is above average.

If this horse was in my area, I'd recommend the owner send it off for training. We have a few in our area who are excellent trainers but one in particular who would have this mare minding her p's and q's in no time while still leaving her confidence in tact. The problem is usually the human ego that wants to believe they are making no mistakes. I talked to a barn owner about this earlier this week. We'd both had experiences with horses of our own where we recognized that while we were good with many, many horses, we were falling just a bit short with one and needed someone fairly different from ourselves to come in and do some ground work with them. In my case, a gal who I think is too extreme with most things was the answer. She handled one of my ponies for two days and I watched this too cute to pay attention to humans pony finally notice there was a handler on the end of his lead and unlike others, she wasn't going to accept his half hearted efforts and go away. Sometimes you just have to conclude, what you've been doing isn't working so like it or not, you're failing the horse.

Over the years I've found I buy into the "abused" history of animals less and less. If they had one bad experience and 500 good ones, time to stop being treated like a baby and expect them to step up to the plate. If this mare was sold with no history attached to her, I'd wager she'd be a jerk with some owners and a perfect angel with others, depending on their reaction to her first infraction.

Cheri

[Jim Sweeney]

You should seriously think about taking the advice of some here about hiring Bruce Mathews to help you out. I would go one step further though and just buy him a plane ticket to come out and help you. It is a small price to pay for a lifetime of easy shoeing with your horse. Most farriers won't do drafts and even fewer do bad drafts. I just flew to Wellington Fl for 155 bucks one way, and that is what I charge for a reset on a small horse. I had Bruce come down to me and work on a Perch that had been trained with a sawdust shovel by a former owner. Bruce made such progress on this horse in an hour we both played the bong drums on his feet and the horse was relaxed. If you measure the cost and stress of keeping a horse like this in shoes for a lifetime Bruce may be the best investment.

[irishcas]

Clicker Training.

www.theclickercenter.com or email me at kim @ clickandtrim.com for ideas and help. Just finished helping someone via email who is out in Oregon. I can put you in touch with her if you want.

[Gary Hill]

Clicker Training.

www.theclickercenter.com or email me at kim @ clickandtrim.com for ideas and help. Just finished helping someone via email who is out in Oregon. I can put you in touch with her if you want.

Make sure you use Fresh fish!:rolleyes:

[Joey Aczon]

I find in cases like this it helps to wait until they relax and put the foot down reguardless of weather or not you are done trimming, etc. Tap with a hammer a few times and set the foot down, tap a few times and set the foot down. If you go through an entire shoeing and set the foot down everytime they relax usually they will be over their "issues" by the end of the first shoeing. Most cases will only take about 30 mins to get them to relax enough to be manageable.

We tend to get greedy for time, and don't want to put the foot down once we have it up. From a farriers point of view, we shouldn't have to put the foot down until we're done with it. But from a trainers point of view you need to put it down everytime they relax as a confirmation that they did the right thing. I surely hope you're paying your farrier for his or her time, and you should expect to pay them for the extra time spent should you request it.

[irishcas]

Make sure you use Fresh fish!:rolleyes:

Easy on that eye roll...

"So long and thanks for all the fish!"

[Phil Armitage]

I find in cases like this it helps to wait until they relax and put the foot down reguardless of weather or not you are done trimming, etc. Tap with a hammer a few times and set the foot down, tap a few times and set the foot down. If you go through an entire shoeing and set the foot down everytime they relax usually they will be over their "issues" by the end of the first shoeing. Most cases will only take about 30 mins to get them to relax enough to be manageable.

We tend to get greedy for time, and don't want to put the foot down once we have it up. From a farriers point of view, we shouldn't have to put the foot down until we're done with it. But from a trainers point of view you need to put it down everytime they relax as a confirmation that they did the right thing. I surely hope you're paying your farrier for his or her time, and you should expect to pay them for the extra time spent should you request it.

Good advice Joey, I agree. It is a give and take, timeing and feel. Bruces training methods is all about give and take, timing and feel. The tools Bruce uses are only tools, the person with the tools can make or break the training. The difficult part is teaching people timing and feel. Their are also times for quick firm correction. Bruce's technique is not for the faint of heart and should not be tried if your not good with horses and ropes. Sounds like a case where the owner should hire a good trainer and also attend the training sessions to learn how to maintain the training.

Just my two cents worth.

[13puppet]

Sorry, this may be too new school, DURGS is the way I would go.

[BurnbankSportHorses]

Thankyou to everyone who has offered USEFUL information.

To clear up, it now only takes about 40-60mins to shoe her (back and front) and we might have one or two arguments with her as apposed to the entire ordeal being an argument like it has been in the past. We bred this horse so we know her entire history.

For everyone that thinks i'm making excuses for her - she was perfect to do anything with her hooves before the "incident" with the farrier that belted her, then had issues. You be the judge of that if you doubt thats where the problems have originated.

Thanks Gary Hill, i will try lifting her hoof higher, i have done it but will do it more often - i'm only about 5'2 so the height i normally lift it to would be a lot different to how high the farrier has it. Thanks for that :D

Brian Robertson, she was trained to stand to have her hooves done from a 3week old foal. The rocking back and forth was not constant - she might have done it twice or three times during the trim. I have no men in the family that have anything to do with horses so she is not often handled by men, she has never done the rocking with me. This may/may not have had something to do with it. Either way - the past can't be changed so i see no point in trying to put me down about this, please offer constructive criticism!

E and E Farm, thanks for that information, will have to do some research into that! I think its unlikely as she is fine for trims, and doesn't start untill the farrier starts to hammer in the nails. But will definitely still look into it and keep it in mind, thanks!

Kaydence, i agree 100%, which is why i'm coming onto forums like this to seek opinions and advice. I have been looking around for trainers, but when i've been out to see their methods i've found most of their solutions are to tie the horses leg up and let it loose in a round yard until its so exhausted it doesn't have much choice but to stand still. Most say no when i say shes a clydie x aswell..The reason i've come out NOW to ask for help is because i believe now she IS confident, and now it IS naughtiness, not nervousness or fear from her bad experiences.

Would love it if i had a great trainer around here, unfortunately can't afford to fly Bruce Matthews to Australia though!!

Joey Aczon, i agree :) and thats the approach we have taken and it has proven successful in increasing her confidence. I've offered and offered extra money to my farrier, but he refuses to accept it!!

Again, thanks to everyone who has offered some helpful information :) given me a few things to think about!! :D

[Kaydence]

Anywhere near Cranbrook? My dressage instructor is in Cranbrook and she has many stallions who are all perfect gentlemen (my best friend spent the summer with her and said all the horses are as mannerly we we're told they are). She wouldn't train your horse per se but she'd train you on how to train your horse and trust me, I've never had a clients horse go into one of her "dressage clinics" that didn't come out better for the farrier even though nothing was done with that as the focus.

Cheri

[BurnbankSportHorses]

Nope, in a different state unfortunately, i'm down in South Australia - thanks anyway!

[Phil Armitage]

Thankyou to everyone who has offered USEFUL information.

To clear up, it now only takes about 40-60mins to shoe her (back and front) and we might have one or two arguments with her as apposed to the entire ordeal being an argument like it has been in the past. We bred this horse so we know her entire history.



The reason you may get responses that appear to be harsh or rude is because it is common for a farrier to run into horse owners that show more concern for their horse's well being and cost. Good for you for offering to pay for your farriers time and if it were me I would have taken it. We tend to see very little concern for the farrier or the quality of task at hand. It is also common for us farriers to try and save horse owners a lot of trouble and training cost and take on a training role. The thought process is if we do not do the job someone else will. I have heard it all, can't afford a trainer, do not have a trailer to transport the horse, do not trust local trainers, I can train the horse myself on and on.

40-60 minutes all around is very fast, especially a Draft horse. Are the one or two arguments mild or severe? Are you and your farrier concerned about safety? It sounds like you have done a good job gaining your horses trust, however she now has gained confidence and you feel she may be presenting a danger to you and your farrier. If this is not the case then why are you now asking for advice. This is a young horse and a big horse at that, easy for her to test. Mares can be moody and more of a challenge to handle than Stallions. She is a young horse, immature and very powerful she can put your farrier out of commission in an instant, it has happened to best of us. I have been in this situation often where young horses are difficult to handle not because of a lack of trust, but a lack of respect as they gain confidence. This is why I suggested hiring a trainer. Some of the training methods applied may seem abusive and look harsh, the method of a horse fighting against themselves is effective and may appear to be harsh to a person with no training experience. Bruces method uses this technique, however the horse is not tied up and left to deal with it. It should be accomplished by a horse savvy person ready to release the rope at the proper time. The ideal is for horse owners to take responsibility for proper training and every horse is different. We should not attempt trimming or shoeing untrained horses, but we do and I would use Bruce Mathews method, it is fast and effective, however a horse owner may still consider it abusive. I highly recommend Bruce's video, but it also helps to see it done in person to really get the idea about safety, proper use of the tools and technique. It is not a new idea, many trainers apply the same technique, maybe not the same tools but the idea is the same.

Sorry about getting long winded, hard to condence something as complicated as training. This thread can be discussed for years and not come close to accomplishing what can be accomlished in 15 min. with a good trainer. :)

[TX Rider]

I have a mare that had issues very much like yours. I'll tell you how I got her over it. Not saying it's suitable for your mare, but it sure worked for mine.

I got her as a 4-year-old and she wasn’t confirmed in her manners with farrier. Story was that she’d had her leg tied up as youngster and the problems likely stemmed from that. But really by the time I was dealing with her, it was not pain or fear, but pure bad manners. She’d pull her foot way while being worked on and was a real pill.

I did my best to get her over it, but was inexperienced and my best just wasn’t good enough, so we ended up sedating her for shoeing. This went on for several years, while I managed to hang onto my top-notch farrier, who is a saint.

One day I saw a technique used that looked worth trying--with my farrier’s permission and cooperation, of course. While he worked on her, I stood at her head on the opposite side holding the lead rope in one hand and a dressage whip in the other. The instant she started to pull a foot away, my farrier stepped aside, and I whacked her shoulder hard. She was startled, jumped away a bit, and looked at me with surprise. It didn’t hurt her at all, but it made a lot of noise and got her attention.

Farrier went back to work, she tried it again, and I whacked her again. It only took 2-3 whacks for her to get the message. For several shoeings after that, I maybe had to correct her a few times, but just holding the whip or leaving it nearby within view was usually enough. After about 6 months, she didn’t even need that and is now a solid citizen with the farrier.

I was flabbergasted that something so simple worked within one session on a horse that had behaved so badly for so long. But, for this particular mare it worked…nothing I’d done before had been quick and clear and strong enough. Though I wouldn’t try it on a nervous and reactive horse, the approach was very effective with this mare, who's sensible and intelligent and could handle it.

[BurnbankSportHorses]

Thanks Phil Armitage, the arguments are now mild, she might pull away or pull backwards but nothing like she used to. (She used to rear, strike out, try to run straight through my farrier)

I don't believe shes a danger to me or my farrier anymore, but i do believe now its just naughtiness which my farrier shouldn't have to deal with and i'm really out of ideas of how to approach it, shes so sensitive but at the same time very ignorant and pigheaded in situations like this.

I'm all for tackling problems head on, and i'm very open minded towards different methods of training providing they are actually helping and not just gaining a false sense of "respect" from the horse which is actually fear. I also have no issues with using ropes etc, but not the way i have seen with some of the self proclaimed trainers in my area use them, hey - if it works for some horses then great! But i highly doubt it would work with her, and i'm not prepared to put her safety at risk when there are much better trainers around.


TX Rider, have tried that and also some other similar methods but this mare is too sensitive, it just made things worse.

I got in contact with a trainer that i used years ago and lost contact with, i've arranged for him to come out and help me out with some groundwork, hopefully we can figure out a way to help this.

Thanks again everyone, my farrier truly is an amazing person, he drives for hours to come and do her knowing shes going to be a pain!! I owe this to him (and more!!)

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

I'd be inclined to recommend that you use sedation coupled with firm confident handling until you find an appropriate trainer and she's learnt to behave.

[horse_n_hoof]

I have four draft clients, two Clydesdales, one Percheron, one Clyde/TB mix. Not a single one has been abused ever, but every single one has this exact problem in the front. It seems to be the position of the front legs during shoeing, so I've made a new hoof cradle that is VERY low to the ground and I tie a very soft rope around the pastern to gently hold the foot up if the cradle doesn't work. This has worked wonders. It's not quite as easy to get the shoe on this way, but it works, the horse is calmer, and we all go home happy. I've had no troubles in the rear doing shoes the commom way, so I think everyone else is right about position bothering these heavy ones. Excellent that you are working yours to be calmer at the sound of hammers, it's a wonderful quality in an owner, I wish all of my clients were as great.