Stride length

[Marc Jerram Dip.WCF]

Does anyone know of any research/experiments/written articles on stride length? In particular stride length associated with asymmetrical feet/limbs.

Thanks

Marc

[calshoer]

Try researching Hillary Clayton. She may have something.

[Marc Jerram Dip.WCF]

Thanks Patty :)

[Ronald Aalders]

Equine Locomotion by Hillary Clayton and Willem Back


Ronald Aalders

[Marc Jerram Dip.WCF]

Thanks Ronald much appreciated

[Jay Mickle]

Does anyone know of any research/experiments/written articles on stride length? In particular stride length associated with asymmetrical feet/limbs.

Thanks

Marc

Marc,
You have a reason for asking the question. May I inquire what that is?

[Marc Jerram Dip.WCF]

trying to gather my own research and im reviewing all the current literature out there, getting used on how to research!!!

[chris bunting]

what disciplines and what breed types are you researching?
chris

[David Gill]

I would be interested to know what thoughts come to you after your research.
Best wishes, David

[Marc Jerram Dip.WCF]

I will keep you all posted on how things pan out, I've found some very interesting information for my research from your book david about asymmetry in the crooked horse section.

Regards

Marc

[Jay Mickle]

Marc,
While you are at it, I have noticed in a number of hi/low horses that the upright hoof moved in a linear path while the low heeled hoof had an arc to the path. A case of selective memory or compensation or???? Interested in what you find.

[Ronald Aalders]

If my experience and conclusions derived thereof are correct (usually there not :cool:) stride length is determined by the way a horse uses its back. Dorsiflexion/extension for one, but left/right (scoliosis) as well.



Ronald Aalders

[cynthia-jay]

Ronald,

there is more than one factor in the equasion in regards to stride length (besides the back)

you have several facts to consider

conformation plays a big part as well as which disapline

and then, how well a horse is balanced and handles itself

your short backed, post legged little cutting guy is not going to out reach a long backed, long legged TB. especially down the home stretch

or is he?

as always

Cynthia Jay;)

[jack-mac]

Ronald,

there is more than one factor in the equasion in regards to stride length (besides the back)

you have several facts to consider

conformation plays a big part as well as which disapline

and then, how well a horse is balanced and handles itself

your short backed, post legged little cutting guy is not going to out reach a long backed, long legged TB. especially down the home stretch

or is he?

as always

Cynthia Jay;)
cj you go get them girl , jacks got ya back if they come out swinging ;)ox;)

[Ronald Aalders]

Ronald,

there is more than one factor in the equasion in regards to stride length (besides the back)

you have several facts to consider

conformation plays a big part as well as which disapline

and then, how well a horse is balanced and handles itself

your short backed, post legged little cutting guy is not going to out reach a long backed, long legged TB. especially down the home stretch

or is he?

as always

Cynthia Jay;)


Thank you Cynthia. But adding conformation would mean you are comparing stride length between horses. Where it would be much more interesting to compare differences in stride length in one and the same horse and find out how differences can be explained.

Ronald Aalders

[cynthia-jay]

Ronald,

the differences can be explained in where are the heels?, "numero uno"
"no heels, no horse"

where is breakover?

,is the horse balanced?

how free are the shoulders, and is the engine in the rear? length, angles also play a part

these race horse shoers often deal with such issues, including assemetricial symetery differences in regards to leg lenghts/sideness/ and other issues

no horse is perfect, as for Dressage it is refered to as "overstride"

"conditioning" also plays a part as in any athlete

it is as you have said before:

it is a team effort;)


Love ya Jac-mac, glad to have ya back mate:D

as always

Cynthia Jay

[Dances with Hooves]

I like olin balch's work and enjoy hearing him speak on stride legnth. Here is a link to the slides from his most recent lecture.

www.soundhorseconference.com/pdf/Balch.pdf

[Ronald Aalders]

Ronald,

the differences can be explained in where are the heels?, "numero uno"
"no heels, no horse"

where is breakover?

,is the horse balanced?

how free are the shoulders, and is the engine in the rear? length, angles also play a part

these race horse shoers often deal with such issues, including assemetricial symetery differences in regards to leg lenghts/sideness/ and other issues

no horse is perfect, as for Dressage it is refered to as "overstride"

"conditioning" also plays a part as in any athlete

it is as you have said before:

it is a team effort;)


Love ya Jac-mac, glad to have ya back mate:D

as always

Cynthia Jay


You may find it's a tad more complicated than that. Work your way through Equine Locomotion and you'll know why. It's too complicated for me to memorize anyway :rolleyes:


Ronald Aalders

[cynthia-jay]

Maybe in explaining it may become difficult

I am also familiar with Hilary Clayton's work, as well as those before her

pick this gal apart if you would like an example

it is poor quality video

you get the idea

what also keeps this horse out of the really high caliber price range?http://s288.photobucket.com/albums/ll162/alimoneyacresvideos/?action=view&current=100_0795.flv



as always

Cynthia Jay

Plus Ronald, you have to have something to improve on...If you are trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear?

what are you gonna get for your effort?

[hotrodiesel]

Adding a heavier shoe to the high foot, can result in more arch. I have a couple arabs I do that are hi/lo. A lighter shoe on the low foot and heavier on the high foot seems to help.

[cynthia-jay]

you are addressing the front end issues/ hi/low

what about the engine for push?

the hinds?

you are gaining arch, are you lengthing stride? or gaining knee action?

in some instance with that situation, is the horse pulling itself from the fore/or pushing with the hinds/

too much questions for my pea brain today

as always

Cynthia Jay:)

[Rick Burten]

Absent pathology, is stride length not determined by genetics?

Rick

[cynthia-jay]

genetics determines/enviroment effects

however, you can condition the animal and 'tweek' it here and there

get a little more

the idea is to get to the winners circle without injury/as

snapping legs/bowing tendons and such

and that of coarse is a team effort

wishing you luck:)

hoping you find just what it is you are searching for

as always

Cynthia Jay

[jack-mac]

Absent pathology, is stride length not determined by genetics?

Rickif that was the only factor rick then every race horse would be sacked if it was fit and didn't win first up, its always been a package deal, just ask any punter that has lost his money backing the favorite that didn't get across the line first.:)

[cynthia-jay]

so please share your thoughts/insight on this subject

would like to hear it:)

Cynthia Jay

[Rick Burten]

if that was the only factor rick then every race horse would be sacked if it was fit and didn't win first up,
Not so. If a horse is at its genetic stride length maximum, then nothing anyone does will improve on that. OTOH, if the horse is not at its genetic maximum stride length, then indeed, there are things that may be attempted in order to try and get the horse to its genetic potential.
its always been a package deal, just ask any punter that has lost his money backing the favorite that didn't get across the line first.:)
Has nothing to do with the issue at hand so long as the horse is at its genetic stride length maximum. Other factor do indeed influence whether a horse crosses the finish line first, last or somewhere in between, but if the stride length has been maximized, its not one of those factors. And, all things considered, genetics plays a huge role in many/most of the other factors.

Rick

[cynthia-jay]

genetics plays a role, but conformational correct for disapline and maximum stride length would be a very big factor in determining who gets to the winners circle/in all disaplines

there are alot of horses TB's as an example

even those of the same direct crosses

the genetics is there, the conformation is not, they are not all winners even with/at maximum stride length

just like brothers and sisters, each is an individual, the genetics is there

lots of other factors go into the melting pot to get to the winners circle

as always

Cynthia Jay

[Rick Burten]

genetics plays a role, but conformational correct for disapline and maximum stride length would be a very big factor in determining who gets to the winners circle/in all disaplines

there are alot of horses TB's as an example

even those of the same direct crosses

the genetics is there, the conformation is not, they are not all winners even with/at maximum stride length
Is not conformation a genetics issue too??;)

Besides, I thought this discussion was about stride length.:confused:


just like brothers and sisters, each is an individual, the genetics is there

lots of other factors go into the melting pot to get to the winners circle

as always

Cynthia Jay
Absent 'identical twins' the genetics will vary from individual to individual even though the parents remain the same.

Rick

[cynthia-jay]

as comparison to Identical twins, one may be talened and out going, the other timid and shy, "genetics is identical"

that's what makes it a horse race Rick, those little extras to get you to the winners circle

take Seabiscut against War Admiral, "maximum stride length" regarding both horses proven as Champions, yet the little guy wins;) conformational differences/ large vs small, the little guy has to work a little harder than the bigger horse to cross the finish line, yet he accomplishes this

Eight Bells, snapping her front legs, the "genetics" of a Champion is there, the conformation is not

In my opinion, they are factors and seperate, yet to be taken into consideration especially regarding "maximum stride lenghth"

(one may have daddy's pasterns the other mommys stifles that stick and click):)

that's what makes it a horses race, if genetically all TB race horses were cloned would they all reach their maximum stride length and produce only winners?

I don't think so, just my humble opinion

as always

Cynthia Jay

[jack-mac]

Not so. If a horse is at its genetic stride length maximum, then nothing anyone does will improve on that. OTOH, if the horse is not at its genetic maximum stride length, then indeed, there are things that may be attempted in order to try and get the horse to its genetic potential.

Has nothing to do with the issue at hand so long as the horse is at its genetic stride length maximum. Other factor do indeed influence whether a horse crosses the finish line first, last or somewhere in between, but if the stride length has been maximized, its not one of those factors. And, all things considered, genetics plays a huge role in many/most of the other factors.

Ricklactic acid build up ,is but one factor in many :rolleyes:john owen mclaren

[Tallisman1968]

This is an interesting discussion (stride length). I once read an article from a very well credentialled farrier who determined that if he could lengthen the stride of a T/B by 10cm through shoeing then he could increase the speed of the horse by a specific amount over a specific distance.

I personally found this comment astounding as there must surely be other things to consider. What if that change in shoeing style forced the horse to travel higher into the air, or it took longer to complete each stride, or unbalanced the horse? There is no proof that a longer stride is equal to better performance.

Personally I agree that maximum length of stride would most likely be optimum for each horse and will be based upon individual genetics/conformation. I also feel that in most instances, trying to alter stride length could more likely lead to an increase in the chance of unsoundness without any guarantee of improved performance.

If the horse that had the longest stride always won the race or outperformed every other horse then I am sure we would be going through a very different system for the purchase of our performance horses. I would strongly suggest that muscle fibres (degree of slow and fast), amongst other things would also have much to do with the speed and performance of horses and their suitability for specific disciplines.

As far as research, I have read that by using a traditional, rolled toe and rocker toe shoe, it was found that there was no distinctive change in the length of stride or the timing of breakover. I have a feeling that this was Clayton but would have to check.

[cynthia-jay]

As for Clayton's research in regards to rockering the toe for "maximum stride length"

it would not affect it if the hoof(s) were in balance, in regards to length, depth, width

as for the muscular structure playing a part, true, however. also include ligaments, tendons, skelatal structure, among other factors

as for wind, ex: Big Brown had all the fixings of a Champion, and fell apart , or so stated in his flapper paralizing, which research indicates is also related to the back

they run em too hard, to quick, to fast, to return investments

as always

Cynthia Jay:)

[jack-mac]

This is an interesting discussion (stride length). I once read an article from a very well credentialled farrier who determined that if he could lengthen the stride of a T/B by 10cm through shoeing then he could increase the speed of the horse by a specific amount over a specific distance.

I personally found this comment astounding as there must surely be other things to consider. What if that change in shoeing style forced the horse to travel higher into the air, or it took longer to complete each stride, or unbalanced the horse? There is no proof that a longer stride is equal to better performance.

Personally I agree that maximum length of stride would most likely be optimum for each horse and will be based upon individual genetics/conformation. I also feel that in most instances, trying to alter stride length could more likely lead to an increase in the chance of unsoundness without any guarantee of improved performance.

If the horse that had the longest stride always won the race or outperformed every other horse then I am sure we would be going through a very different system for the purchase of our performance horses. I would strongly suggest that muscle fibres (degree of slow and fast), amongst other things would also have much to do with the speed and performance of horses and their suitability for specific disciplines.

As far as research, I have read that by using a traditional, rolled toe and rocker toe shoe, it was found that there was no distinctive change in the length of stride or the timing of breakover. I have a feeling that this was Clayton but would have to check.proper action combined with stride length will increase a horses speed , how long it can maintain it for, is the winning or losing factor . clayton's? isn't that the drink you have when your not having a drink:D

[chris bunting]

the idea of lenghthening the stride in flat horses is that theoretically the horse does not need so many strides down the track and so is not as tired at the end and still has juice left in the tank for a final surge at the finish line
chris

[Tallisman1968]

Hi Jack,

proper action combined with stride length will increase a horses speed , how long it can maintain it for, is the winning or losing factor . clayton's? isn't that the drink you have when your not having a drink

I agree with your comments, that proper action combined with maximum individual stride length (which is based upon each individual horses genetics) will increase the 'individual horses' speed, but it wont necessarily make it the fastest horse. There are other factors to this such as how fast the horse can complete the said movement, which is generally determined by muscle i.e. muscle twitch fibres, percentage of fast or slow. As for winning or losing, not all horses run at the same 'maximum speed'.

Yep, Claytons is the drink you have when your not having a drink. So why not have a bourbon instead!!! :)

[Tallisman1968]

Hi Chris,

the idea of lenghthening the stride in flat horses is that theoretically the horse does not need so many strides down the track and so is not as tired at the end and still has juice left in the tank for a final surge at the finish line

I understand the reason behind what this farrier was trying to achieve, but it does not make sense IMO. As an example, if you sprinted 100m and then sprinted 100m using the longest stride you could, I guarantee you would use more energy and be slower using the longer stride.

Just like humans, every horse has a natural and optimally efficient stride length that is determined by genetices, essentially its structure (levers), muscles, tendons etc. Any change to this through shoeing interferes with the horses biomechanical efficiency, which in turn interferes with performance (including level of and speed of fatigue) and soundness.

Personally, I feel optimising efficiency is the best way to maximise individual performance and maintain soundness.

[Donnie Walker]

Perhaps the following will be of interst.


You can tell that a quarterhorse and a thoroughbred are two distinct breeds merely by looking at them.
What is it that really catches your eye? Muscles! What we're talking about here are "skeletal muscles", muscles that surround the limbs. These are also called voluntary muscles because they are consciously and actively used to move.
What really makes up a triceps, a biceps, or a gluteal muscle? Whether in horses or in humans, muscles are really just a giant bundle of stringy fibers gathered together at their ends and attached by tendons to bone.
But it's not that simple because there is more than one "type" of fibers in each bundle. Animals have actually evolved to have different amounts of each fiber type in their bundles, depending on what they need to do. In this respect, horses differ from goats and kangaroos. Taking this process one more step, Quarterhorses differ from Thoroughbreds.
Some muscles are made to contract quickly and explosively, resulting in power, strength, and immediate speed. These are called the "fast twitch" or Type IIb fibers.
Other muscles are meant to work steadily, without fatigue, for many hours, resulting in great endurance. These are classified as Type I, or slow-twitch
A third type of muscle fiber in the body is an intermediate, able to generate both rapid power and endurance ("Type IIa). Humans have the same mix of fiber types.
Horses that are meant for quick power and speed, such as Quarterhorses, will possess a greater proportion of Type IIb fast-twitch muscle fibers.
Horses that are meant for endurance, such as Arabians, will possess a greater proportion of Type I muscle fibers.
Horses that are meant for both great speed and (relative) endurance, such as Thoroughbreds, will possess a greater proportion of Type I and IIa fibers, the slow and intermediate types.
The cellular makeup of the muscle fibers themselves, and the energy source that the muscle cell uses, determine the type of contraction that they will produce.
The type of energy source that the muscle uses, in turn, will determine the amount of blood supply to the muscle. Type I muscles are absolutely reliant on the presence of oxygen in order to work. They are necessary for aerobic exercise. Type II muscles can function without the presence of oxygen, and are necessary for anaerobic exercise
Muscle fiber types do not change with the type of training that the horse receives - it is actually the nerve supply during development of the muscle that determines its fiber type.
However, work will enlarge or "hypertrophy" certain types of muscles. For example, Type II fibers will respond to power work, like pumping iron in the gym, and Type I by long slow work analogous to running.


Muscle Structure:
Each muscle consists of thousands of cells that are bundled together to form one functional unit. Skeletal muscles are covered with a protective sheath that eventually comes together to form tendons and ligament. Muscles have a plentiful blood supply, because they require constant delivery of oxygen and nutrients. The blood supply also takes away the toxic substances that muscles build up because of their high activity level.

Muscle Energy Sources

All cells are reliant upon high-energy phosphate bonds for energy. When these powerful phosphate chemical bonds breakdown, they release energy which is used by the body to power things, like pumps, enzymes, and revolving doors for proteins to come and go from cells.

The fastest method of producing energy comes from a molecule that stores phosphate, known as creatine phosphate. However, this hot fuel called creatine phosphate lasts only 5-10 seconds. That's a quick burnout. For more continuous function, for example to cross a river, the muscles will be required to make and store a more reliable energy source.

Most of this 'reliable' energy is found in a molecule called ATP. It's so important it's often called "energy currency." The P in ATP stands for phosphate - and, once again, it is in the P bonds that energy is stored. There are three of these high-energy bonds in ATP, which makes it a particularly valuable energy source.

ATP itself must come from the breakdown of nutrients - sugar (glucose, or glycogen in its stored form), fats, and protein. ATP is continually used, remade, and reused. It's such important stuff; only a very small amount is actually stored in the muscle cells. But there must always be a supply of ATP, because if a muscle cell runs out of ATP, it can no longer function. Rigor mortis, the stiffness seen in death and in the morgue on television is due to a final lack of ATP.

Type I muscles break down sugars by a process that requires oxygen, much like the gas burning engine that requires oxygen from air. The form of sugar breakdown that occurs in the presence of oxygen is known as aerobic glycolysis. Aerobic glycolysis is well suited to endurance type muscles, because it produces a very large amount of ATP (36 in total) for every molecule of glucose that is broken down.

Type I muscles also use fats for production of ATP, producing an astounding 460 ATP for every molecule that it broken down. Therefore, fat is an extremely dense source of energy production. Both aerobic glycolysis and the breakdown of fats are relatively slow processes. Anaerobic glycolysis is the process of breaking down glucose without the presence of oxygen. The net production of ATP from one sugar is only two ATP. So if we only get two ATP versus 460 from a molecule of fat, what is the advantage of anaerobic glycolysis? Actually the advantage is huge for specific situations, because it is extremely fast, and speed is the name of the game with muscles.

The down side to anaerobic glycolysis is a greater production of by-products, especially lactate. Lactate accumulation blocks anaerobic glycolysis itself, and thus muscle function.





So, What Happens During Exercise in the Quarterhorse versus Thoroughbred?
Your Quarterhorse is about to begin running the barrels. He starts to gallop - what powers him? When a horse starts to gallop, he needs an immediate source of energy. This energy is found in the very small amounts of stored ATP and a molecule called phosphocreatine. However, these supplies are quickly exhausted (within seconds).

Your Quarterhorse's powerful, predominately Type IIb muscles, have by now started the process of producing energy by anaerobic glycolysis. This process is in at its peak within 60 seconds - with the job that your horse is doing now, this is all the energy that he needs. Because your Quarterhorse has a high proportion of fast-twitch muscles that are meant to move into gear quickly and anaerobically, and produce great strength and power, he is innately suited for many of his jobs, such as the quarter-run, barrel-racing, and calf-roping. However, these muscles can't sustain this process for more than a half a mile, so your quarterhorse can't keep up the pace over a longer distance.

Imagine a different scenario - your Thoroughbred racehorse is in the starting gates, facing a mile and a half course, instead of several hundred yards of sprinting. What happens? Well, he starts the same way that the Quarterhorse did under full throttle! But now, he must sustain his effort for longer than is possible with anaerobic glycolysis.

The Thoroughbred, by birth, has a higher proportion of slow twitch, oxidative, Type I and Type IIa muscles. Within one minute, the slower, but more efficient process of aerobic glycolysis has begun to supplement his efforts. Although aerobic glycolysis is much more efficient, it is not as fast a method of producing energy, so at this point, the pace starts to slow. Although the thoroughbred still keeps up an amazing speed over the last 3/4s of the race, he is physically incapable, no matter what his training regimen, of completing the entire race at a sprint.

Now, to stretch your mind a little further, imagine an Arab competing in a 100 mile endurance race. He needs more energy than even aerobic glycolysis can afford, but he doesn't need the powerful, short-term speed of the quarterhorse, or even the pace that the Thoroughbred can maintain for a mile to a mile and a half. Instead, he needs to be steady and sure for a truly impressive distance.

The endurance horse needs a fuel that is in plentiful supply, but he doesn't need instant delivery of fuel - and this is found in the form of oxidation of fats. This process is slow, but extremely efficient. Even in a fit, muscular looking horse, there are enough body stores of fat to last for a very long time. Thus, the endurance horse will rely primarily on his Type I muscles to (relatively) slowly but very steadily power him through his grueling task.





Summary
Different breeds are intrinsically suited to the type of work that they do. They are not limited by their will, or their desire, but rather by their physiological make-up, which is breed -determined (i.e. genetic) to a large extent.
Appropriate training can bring each type of horse to its peak level of fitness, but will not change the type of muscle that the horse has by birth. A good example of how this poses a dilemma is the difficulties in training for 3-Day Eventing, which requires a horse to perform aerobic (cross-country, dressage) and anaerobic (jumping) exercises. These horses that can do it all are truly impressive.
Despite the limitations imposed by nature, training can enable each horse to use his muscular strength, power, speed, and endurance to its fullest effect.

[cynthia-jay]

Very well said Proffessor Walker in relationship to the muscular make up

then there is the skelator structure which adds up to "conformation"

all that muscle mass won't do a bit of good if the bone mass can not hold up to it add angles, lenghts and "whatmacalitz":)

and best to have a hoof ( 4 is even better) to get it to the destination, or disapline

as for the T.B.'s, an experianced jockey, and trainer can also add to the equation as a rider can in regards to HJ/D and other disaplines as well

always a combination

best to all

as always

Cynthia Jay:)

[tbloomer]

. . . and "whatmacalitz":)

I think I saw some of them for sale on eBay last week. :D

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Donnie Walker in gray, lots of stuff deleted

You can tell that a quarterhorse and a thoroughbred are two distinct breeds merely by looking at them...

Not me, I can't tell 'em apart - and neither can lots of other folks. There's been so much infusion of TB blood into some QH families that it's virtually impossible to differentiate between a sprinting type TBs and QH runners, many (most?) of which carry more than 1/2 TB blood. Consider Phenomenal Freaky, the probable 2009 Champion Running Quarter Horse that just won the Champion of Champions at Los Alamitos: He has more than 5/8ths TB blood.

As to the author's observaton on fast twitch/slow twitch and those muscles' influence on speed/distance, it's interesting to note that every time QH and TBs of equal class have been matched at 440, the TB has won. Probably the most famous of these matches was in 1974 when Come Six, the World Champion Quarter Horse Gelding, was outrun by the then-unknown TB, Beduino, down in Mexico.

The $100,000 winner-take-all match race rocked the QH racing industry; Beduino was subsequently imported to the USA and went on to become one of the QH racing industry's most influential sires. By the way, Phenomenal Freaky is inbred to Beduino 3 x 4. :)

[Clint Burrell]

stuff deleted[QUOTE=Tom Stovall, CJF;184784] Consider Phenomenal Freaky, the probable 2009 Champion Running Quarter Horse that just won the Champion of Champions at Los Alamitos:

By the way, Phenomenal Freaky is inbred to Beduino 3 x 4. :)


That's line breeding. If they don't "run", then it's inbreeding.:D



(I know you know that)

[chad rice]

Thanks for the history lesson Mr. Tom, I did not know that, and that stuff is interesting.